Sam Harris on the "dangers" of "atheism" 

He is absolutely right - WHY ARE WE STILL HAVING THIS ARGUMENT?

The first time I'd ever heard the term atheist was when it was thrust upon me by a close friend. I had admitted to having some welling doubts about the actual existence of God. I was a Christian at the time. When he questioned me about my doubts I shared my somewhat, and comparatively irrational reasons. Upon doing so, my close friend informed me that I was, "a godless, Devil worshiping, atheist." With those contingencies, I could not honestly accept the label. For one, I did not, in any way, actively worship the Devil. So, I didn't label myself an atheist. All I had to do was criticize that particular religion, and many of the associated beliefs and assertions, and the label was thrust upon me. So, in some ways, I take exception with Sam's suggestions here. We do not need to call ourselves atheists, or anything else for that matter, to be mocked, shunned, or in any other way marginalized by those who dogmatically believe what they do. They will choose a label for us. With regard to what skeptics, secular humanists, atheists, and agnostics discuss, atheism seems the most applicable term. It isn't, as Sam suggests, a matter of us lying down within the chalk outline provided for us. It is about accepting the label thrust upon us, and making it stand for something real and meaningful.

Thank you Sam Harris. You've been able to verbalise exactly my gut feelings that I've been incapable of explaining

I remember as a child and immediately after getting kicked out of sunday school for asking too many questions, thinking to myself "man, I am going to be an atheist"- no, I had no idea that word existed, I just thought the bible and Christians were stupid as well as brutal (I was beaten at home for asking questions and embarrassing my family by not bowing to peer pressure).

This is terrific. So bright, thoughtful, and necessary for me to take seriously. Thanks, Sam. And many thanks to you, blaaaargh, for uploading it.

"Skip to 4:00"? Blaaaargh, you're the best!

This is why when someone ask me if I'm an atheist, I'm like, "I'm neutral. I'm not a member of any group."

This is a wonderful well put together presentation that totally so makes sense.

Sam can't stand Margaret.

repent sinners the day is at hand on your knees and ask forgiveness lest you be smote and cast aside doomed to wander to perdition ,or it could just be a load of bollocks.

To use rationality and evidence was my favorite part of the speech.

21:47 - "Why should we stand obediently in the space provided? Why should we stand in the space carved out by the conceptual scheme of theistic religion?" A few words that speak volumes. Thank you Sam Harris.

Sam Harris is my God.

I was raised a Catholic, for years I told people I no longer practice it. I never thought of myself as an atheist. I still do.

I find the best thing to use against a Christian is the line "I do good because I choose to, not because I have been threaten with Hell-fire." It steals the moral high ground from them and they can never get it back no matter how hard you try to give it back to them.

Religion has something to die for. Atheism has everything to live for. Which one sounds more dangerous again?

I am very pleased that he acknowledges that the word "atheism" has taken on the sense that it is not interested in contemplative discussion. This is the single most important key to giving religion its power. I found the conversation really very honest.

This man is one of the most cognizant speakers and intellectuals of our time. Here are the rough sketches of a roadmap toward a greater humanity.

"decent honest people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them".... this guy has to be the most convincing thinker of this century.

The evidence we do have is that the egyptians used their own people as a workforce, but did not treat them like slaves. From BBC, "Almost every family in Egypt was either directly or indirectly involved in pyramid building. The pyramid labourers were clearly not slaves." From FirstThings "work was performed by skilled laborers who had the perks of a labor union: work only ninety days a year, eat steak and lamb every day, luxury burial benefits, etc."

If you guys enjoyed the part of the speech where he talked about consciousness and altering our process of thought so that we can silence our constantly-chattering mind and just find happiness in the present moment, watch his speech "Death and the present moment", it's fantastic, very inspirational.

"I call out to all of you who are unsure of My Existence.Trust in Me. By confiding in Me, communicating with Me and asking Me to forgive you that you will receive the answer you crave. Souls are worthy to enter Heaven because My Mercy is so great that I can save every single sinner if only they would seek the courage they need to ask Me for help. I love all of you with an abiding passion. Never reject My Love or Mercy as without them you will sink further into sin and remain lost to Me". Jesus

I understand the quotes on “dangers”, but why are there quotation marks on atheism? Do you think that it doesn’t exist? That not believing in a god is some kind of myth? I am genuinely curious.

Sam Harris, what a great speaker. He speaks the truth whether you like it or not.

I feel like "anti-theist" does not suffer the same intellectual dangers that "atheist" does. People think that atheism comes accompanied by a set of beliefs (the "belief" in empirical evidence and critical thinking) but anti-theism merely implies the dislike of religion and nothing more... despite the fact that atheism shouldn't imply anything anyway.

I have nothing but respect for Sam Harris. To me his "drug past" means he has broader knowledge about the nature of mind and consciousness and the different states available to people. Scientists in the 1800s often tested their new pharmaceuticals on themselves and there is something to be said for personal experience over theory and speculation. I'm glad Sam survived his youthful experiments intact and is now able to share his honesty, perceptiveness and articulation with us.

I really appreciate Harris' clarifications on metaphysics and spiritualism. They are NOT the same as theism. Theism is all about irrational belief in deities, in conceptual impossibilities that cannot possibly exist. Metaphysics and spiritualism is about certain types of human experience. Such experiences are real and valuable. They have no necessary connection with theism. Many rational non-theists explore them and experience them.

More on topic, this is an extremely good speech. This is EXACTLY the sort of chastisement that "atheists" need, for their own well being and dignity. As an atheist myself, I have studied Theravada/Zen Buddhism and Classical Stoicism and have found immensely useful, accurate, and powerful teachings about ourselves within them. Buddhism in particular, if one discards useless esotericisms such as karma, reincarnation, etc, is actually very insightful and useful. Most atheists would ignore this.

I didn't hear one "danger" of Atheism in this speech. I like Sam Harris but I didn't get anything from this. Basically he says that we shouldn't call ourselves atheists, secularists, secular humanists, freethinkers, rationalists, and anti-theists. I say, why not? They are simply labels. And these "labels" differentiate us from the norm. I don't see the big deal with using any of these labels. He also said that Atheism wasn't a "thing". OK, fair enough. But "secular humanism" is - it's a worldview. I also found it funny that he said don't use the label "atheists" and then called him and others "Atheists" throughout his speech.

Julia Sweeney is full-on weird, but intriguing nonetheless. Love Harris and Dawkins. They communicate so clearly.

Damn. What can I or any of us even say to that? Harris is a unique individual of seemingly self contradiction: a philosophical non-theist. He's quiet and deliberate in his delivery, and he has both the intellect and the vocabulary to construct his views in ways that are near bullet-proof. I've listened to Sam in numerous videos before, but this is the first time I've truly appreciated his unique take on the subject of religion.

I really like how he recognizes that contemplative practices are worth exploring.

Here in Finland christians are mostly in favor of abortion. Abortion is not killing babies, it is terminating pregnancy at an early stage before the fetus has any ability to suffer (legal limit 12 weeks after conception, with some exceptions). Religious anti-abortionists don't seem care about suffering though. Instead of proper sex education and contraception they pursue policies which are sure to cause higher teen/accidental pregnancy. We have lower abortion rates here.

I love that he casually says "bullshit" right in the middle of this extremely high-minded and sound intellectual lecture.

To be evenhanded, worldiness at times entered churchianity and there was a great deal of inappropriate oppression. Big difference between churchianity and Christianity. Mercy and love in true Christianity is the apex of the glory of God.

To them, for whatever reason, insulting religion is worse than committing genocide.

He meant that any labels are problematic. Any fixed idea we have about how the world works never matches up to the reality of our moment-to-moment perception, and we suffer because of it.

What Harris says is why I am Eastern Orthodox and always will be. I agree with him

"....let people believe what they want to believe. You attempting to dissuade them is just as bad as them trying to "save" you." Did you even watch the video? I think he covered that pretty elegantly

Yes, but as they say, "love the sinner; hate the sin." Try to convince them with politeness, not with hatred.

"We are faced with the task of convincing a myth-infatuated world that love and curiosity are sufficient."

On November 27th, 2023 … an Atheist who (to her credit) although she was raised around those who did believe in the existence of a god … had never been indoctrinated by religion, said, “If people are too stupid to see the lies … they deserve to stay there.” I informed her that being as a child I HAD bought into the lies … and that then I was too “stupefied” BY the mythical lies to be ABLE to unravel them in an instant … and that I didn’t complete that daunting task until I was 70 years of age … when I was free at last to “become” an Atheist. I informed her that because she couldn’t understand what kept me confused for so long … she could never help people to be free of religion. She then said that she would never “try” to free anyone from religion … to which I replied that because of the damage done to helpless children “by” religion … that because of my experience … I will do everything in my power to help “stupefied” others … out of religion. I am willing to admit that (unlike me) my friend was too wise to be caught up in a “spiritual” web of lies … and for that … I give her full credit … albeit even if I could … I would not change her experience for mine. Because we always “level” with each other … we are the best of friends and have been for many years ... since first we met.

Atheists don't necessarily believe we are alone in the universe. They simply don't believe in a god. Anyone that's intellectually honest will admit we have no idea if we are alone in the universe or not. As Neil DeGrasse Tyson has said, saying we're alone, based on how much of space we can see, is like observing a bucket of water from the ocean and concluding whales don't exist.

Joe A As a longtime atheist I also abhor the "movement" attitude many atheist "leaders" are now advocating. They proselytize like evangelicals, treat those they disagree with as evil (not mistaken) and in general develop a very thin skin. The good old days, when the atheist Robert Ingersoll was so respected that he was chosen to nominate Blaine at the GOP convention are long gone. Purposely enraging Christians is incredibly counterproductive. .

Seriously, Sam Harris' ability to articulate and explain the most difficult intellectual topics is astounding. There hasn't been one talk he's given that I was able to steer my attention away from. The amount of thought invoked, encouraged, and well conveyed is simply staggering. Very impressive.

Sam you are making the difference for humanity. I love to lessen to you talking and making sence of things. Thank you for being the way you are.

religion isn't the issue it's primitiveness, many may argue that primitiveness gave birth to religion but i think religion was our earliest form of science which somehow still thrives today. Sam Harris is a very smart man

What are you talking about? I do have a message; skeptical thinking. I do debate people, I do advocate skepticism. I do criticize nonsense. I do oppose religion. I am a voter, I am a consumer, my attention is competed for for various causes. Just like every skeptical person. I am part of a culture.

I should have made my comment more clear. The first part was directed at your comment that terrorists aren't necessarily educated. The second part was directed more to TheGodlessGuitarist's comment about elitism. I didn't mean to imply I think getting an education or acknowledging that education is important is elitist. They were supposed to be two separate points but I didn't make that clear.

Thanks for the chuckle!

When he started speaking about Mormonism possibly playing a role in the upcoming presidential election, I had to double check the date to make sure I wasn't going crazy! :)

Can you do something else other than quote mining?

I did want to say that Sam is one of the more thoughtful and less inflammatory New Atheists and raises many good points. In this message, I get a real sense a lot of the caution is "don't turn atheism into a religion". It's actually a really good point.

Another great Sam Harris lecture. I don't regret a single minute I spend listening to his ideas.

I think what he meant is that society is trying to appart us. When they label everyone as "Atheists" you create a prejudice. Like he said, people who are against racism doesn't call themselves "antiracists", so we don't actually need to call us atheists. I agree that as society likes labels, it's good to indentify ourselves as atheists so that we can create a "sense of identity". But maybe that is a trap and is used against us because atheism isn't an ideology, is just a "lack of faith"

I always say that meditation and other introspective methods don't need any kind of religious background and are perfectly compatible with the most logical and rigorous way of thinking. We need more of that in our lives in fact I believe its essential that we do something about it soon, and as Sam Harris said denying its importance makes us less believable and more vulnerable

I think I may have phrased that poorly. I meant that exactly the other way around, the attempt is to put theism on equal footing as atheism.

Eternity has worn a human face, Contracted to a little human span, Lo, the Immortal has become a man, A self-imprisoned thing in time and space. There is no freewill and the only thing that makes you mortal is identification with the body and its mental formations. The "I" thought is the assmuption that makes men suffer. You are but consciuosness attaching itself to ideas. Who are you if no thought arises? You are life itself, immortal and infinitly beautiful, no reason can touch it.

Thanx.... BTW of interest it seems WLC has added new (Contemporary argument) premises to the Kalam cosmological argument. I guess as a philosopher he do that. en.wikipedia (dot org)/wiki/Kal%C4%81m_cosmological_argument

I don't think the real issue is simply "believe in something that cannot be proven," The issue is making that unlovable belief such a critical, controlling part of your life. As a society, we do have hope of getting the majority of educated persons to make all of life's critical decisions (especially how they treat others) with a sound, evidence based critical thought process.

Arguably the best line concerning ethics, science, religion and human interaction.

I was hoping he would talk about lack of community in atheism. I'm still an atheist for now, a bit more of an open minded, searching atheist than I was in my teens, but still an atheist. Though with some spiritual beliefs. - But I find where I've come to in life to be pretty unfulfilling. I've found myself going to a church every so often because of the community there. The togetherness, and the family. They seem happy. While I find many (not all) of my non-religious friends seem miserable. Hanging onto life with antidepressants. - Gods may not exist. But I find myself questioning how healthy and happy life can be without a church community. Or something similar like a gurdwara.

The problem is that religious believers DO NOT get out of others way and let them live their lives. Also, you make the old mistake of claiming that NOT believing in crazy claims = believing in nothing. Atheists have "beliefs", they are just generally NOT faith-based beliefs. And by proselytizing reason, we are not trying to impose any belief we are trying to persuade. Making laws that govern others sex lives, "vices" etc. based on holy books is imposing belief.

"Hubble found that the universe was not static, but rather was expanding!" Thousands of years before Hubble, our holy writings mentioned the following: "(G-d) Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain(Psalms 104:3). "And forgettest the L-rd, thy maker, that has stretched forth the heavens(Isaiah 51:13). The Hebrew word for "stretch" ("noteh") also means "to bend". This also corresponds with the "curved universe" theory.

Oh, and by the way, if you look at the "Reception" section, you'll see some counter-arguments against this, e.g. quantum mechanics.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise. I suppose the phrasing "alone in the universe" threw me off. Sorry about that.

It's the unknown that drives some people to not accept nonsensical answers like "god did it" that gets us nowhere closer to finding the real explanations of how the universe works. Regardless if the answers are actually found or not, there is knowledge to be gained when one looks for real answers, when one accepts "God Did It" as an explanation the acquisition of knowledge stops.

Mitt Romney was a presidential candidate for the 2008 election but he didn't make it past the primaries. I guess this just shows how Sam Harris' relevance transcend time.

I completely agree. The problem is, it allows a person to rationalize evil as good. Actually it is the "command morality" view that causes good men to commit evil in the name of religion. Command morality is, of coarse totally dependent on their being an all knowing, all authoritative commander.

While the killer may or may not have been atheist, he was without a doubt a secular individual. His shooting had nothing to do with religion, neither did that of Colorado or any of the other famous killings that have taken place. As far as Japan goes, their secularism has NOTHING to do with their crime rate. THAT'S an ignorant statement. "Ignorant has one 'r' by the way". A country's murder rate has to do with their society's particular glorification of violence in the first place.

One of my family asked me if I believed in the devil since I was an atheist. lol. thankfully it was a respectful dialogue between us. Family thicker than blood kind of thing. My style has evolved into a respect for my family and their style of religion, they don't go to war with it.

I disagree. 1 - Sacrificing your life is an extremely selfish action. It benefits you from "the pain of having to live without the other person". 2 - "Do not lie" is "pro-honesty" which is extremely necessary for social groups 3 - Donating makes you feel yourself a better person. As "at least I'm trying something".

it's very simple. We have a few axioms - happiness is better than anguish, human survival is better than human extinction, and the pragmatic principle of reciprocity -- you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, but if you stab me in the back I'll try to stab you. Consequences of actions matter to your survival, your happiness, your groups' happiness, etc. These are truly rudimentary principles, and if you honestly don't understand or see them, you are literally a psychopath.

I didn't choose the label 'atheist.' My family branded me with it when I was 'outed.' No problem for me though. First of all, it's accurate. Secondly, while there are some legitimate points of contention that warrant debate within the secular community (accommodation vs confrontation for instance), what to call ourselves is not one of these points. It’s a silly thing to fuss and cause ‘division in the ranks’ over, because it has little to do with the content of what we’re all advocating.

"If a good person can be made to do evil things through religion then they weren't that good to begin with." Me

Another brilliant lecture by Dr. Harris. It's this kind of thinking that I believe will carry the day in the long run. I think he aptly describes why most people shy away from the term "atheism." It is just as he says, that it has become a term largerly defined by our detractors, who have made a chalk line for us to lie down in. Brilliantly put. I have been saying this for a while that I do not oppose religion per se, but specific religious beliefs that are false and harmful.

The term Atheism is a positive & powerful label that helps unify & focus the movement of encouraging people to think rationally. Perhaps instead of "Atheist Conferences" we should call them "Conferences with People Who Choose to Look at The World Through Evidence and Thus Don't Believe in God". But I prefer the LABEL Atheist Conference. I wouldn't be opposed to calling it the "Rational Conference", and referring to us as Rationalists or even Skeptics. But we NEED a label.

You know full well that "burden of proof" is not being used as a legal term when discussing this issue. Atheism can be the belief that no gods exist, but it can simply be a rejection of claims for the existence of gods based on the absence of credible evidence.

Personally, I think we should eliminate all labels. I am not a female nor male, but a human . . . Wait, no, an animal. No, that's even too confining and inaccurate. I am nothing. Yes, nothing.

"Technically there is no such thing as spirituality." - Tibetan Buddhist lama

You could walk away and the worst that would happen is you would loose your house and have to get an apartment that is 100 times more luxuriousness than half the world has. You enjoy a standard of living that over half of the world envies you for. I too have a mortgage. I made a choice to enjoy the advantage of home ownership and pay the price. Hardly much of a price since it is likely less than the rent on a comparable rental.

I am a proud non-racist, by God I survived the prejudices of growing up in a racist society. To say that I am not that hurts deeply. Faith and reason are not opposites, I can have faith in something unseen and reason for understanding the world around me. Science and religion are not opposite, I agree, the truth must come first, but we should not tolerate extreme anti-theisism. There are some stupid ideas in religion, but that does not justify the humiliation of other world views!

"No self examination needed" - So when you describe a comment thread as a "conversation" you mean it's your pulpit, where you can run your mouth as much as you like, because no matter what anyone could possibly say, your mind is made, bolted and locked. Good luck with that integrity.

What makes you think we aren't worried about those as well? And if you think there's not a direct correlation between some of these topics, you are mistaken. Our economy is regulated by our government, and our legislators more often than not tend to be religious. Their beliefs influence the decisions they make. You can try to separate the two, but a person's beliefs do resonate into our world whether we like it or not.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. " Steven Weinberg

may be so, my point is that the Atheist cannot be sure that God does not exist simply because we cannot yet prove God exists. So why would an Atheist say he "does not believe in God", when there is no proof God exists, just as there is no proof God does not exist?

And you’ll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they’ll be comforted to know your energy’s still around.

Here, let's move this to PMs to keep the comments section clear.

Sam Harris has also talked about how he thinks certain psychic phenomena such as reincarnation and telepathy deserve research (as Carl Sagan also did, in his last book). Anyone who rejects these topics out of hand is not approaching them from an authentic perspective. Considering only *one* man has ever done extensive research into reincarnation, and he was able to come up with some very difficult to explain stories, then what would a hundred scientists come up with? We should find out.

Thankyou for the recognition deserved!!! Now what exactly is your point???

I did choose my words carefully there... "we should not let ourselves be terrorized by [burning flags]"... I didnt say that there's no potential for feeling offended! actually: they count on it! - they feel sacredly right, and that selfrighteous convinces them to do things that they hope (!) will offend us just as they are offended, not even on equal footing ("let you feel what we feel"), but out of pure hubris: "we are right, you are not: feel hurt now, while we are carrying out gods will!"

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

What makes you think a soul is a thing? Or what makes you think that a person would "have" a soul as opposed to "being" a soul?

The reason Jesus was universally hated by the established Jewish religious leaders of his day is that he came with a teaching that took their interpretations and applications of scriptures and turned them on their heads. The first apostles addressed the issue of hypocritical pretense by individuals claiming to be followers of Christ and nothing has changed. "Religion" is a human system of control--spirituality is an entirely different issue and something not addressed by atheistic argument.

"a cranky subculture that meets in hotel ballrooms".....hahahahaha...that was good.

contraception just means birth control. If you think that not having children is the same as killing them... plus, I do believe he was talking about all religions, not just Christians. Just clearing things up there.

Atheism and theism are about belief. Agnosticism and gnosticism are about knowledge. agnostic: "a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable" - merriam-webster com There are other definitions for agnostic, but the one I copy/pasted is generally the first one that comes up in any dictionary, and it's the one I use.

Seems we agree here on most matters, then! Nice discussion.

Romney ran for the GOP nomination in 2007. He's been running for years but, apparently, like his running mate, his evaluation of how good a "runner" he is, is a bit inaccurate.

Just checking .. looking for a glimpse into what kind of standards, laws, charter of rights we would have in an athiest based society based on the deductive reasoning model of an athiest. Mind if I pass?