it is that simple. It is also actually insane how people cannot understand this. If everyone was using products/consuming art with morality standards then no one would use any product or consume any art at all. They just suddenly become morally superior and "saints" when the thing they are trying to "cancel" is not something they use/consume themselves. How convenient.
@@blackpower6654yeah and that's the thing I don't understand how people can still be cool with this I mean you still sharing there message out in the world
@@blackpower6654 and im okay with that. i dont care what they did outside of their music. but i dont pay them directly. all this cancel culture is bullshit. people should decide themself, dont tell me what to do and listen to.
"Stop being a pussy and listen to music you enjoy." -Farvann Truer words have never been spoken on the subject of separating art from the artist. Great video man.🤘
The reason some people can't separate the art from the artist is that a lot of people experience music as a form of 'social connection' with the artist. And have to - to some extent - like the artist. They also feel in the art a connection that reflects something within themselves - and if this isn't mirrored in the personality of the artist - again there's another disconnect. Speaking for myself - for the most part I can separate art from the artist to an extent - but I do feel an enhanced connection when I connect with the personality of the artist in some way, it enhances the experience. Musical pleasure is 'pure' in theory, but in practice that purity is either enhanced or diluted by these extra-musical factors. I'll admit I can be influenced subtly by some things - something as simple as really evocative and imaginative cover art on an album can enhance it a bit and attract me to the listening experience a little more!
That is a good explanation. I had similar thought, but couldn't put them into words. I tend to stay away from artists that disgust me, however, I struggle with Burzum and also with Lovecraft. Both of those have produced incredible art, that is, to a degree important to me, but disgust me on a personal level. That is rather unpleasant, however, with Lovecraft I have less of a problem, given that he is dead and has been for more than 80 years.
With me, I can separate the art from the artist if it's something like a video game, architecture, inventions, etc. where it's made by multiple people & the designers don't generally plaster themselves everywhere like rock stars, actors, or wrestlers. I realized that one of the Quake 1, 2 and 3 level designers (Tim Willits) was known to be an egomaniac & a lot of his maps were ripped-off from small time internet hires IICR, and he screwed over a lot of new employees behind the scenes, but you wouldn't know who he was unless you're the most diehard of Quake fans. And 95% of casual fans wouldn't know who Tim Willits is unless you searched his name in the credits or the dev room after beating the games. But if his likeness was plastered all over the game & his personal life injected into the Quake series (like a rock star with John Romero's Daikatana), and the levels an artistic reflection Tim himself (like Vince McMahon's WWE career), then it's hard for me to separate the art from the artist. But in Tim's case, I see him like a "grunt-work type" person who helped build Madison Square Garden or something like that, or the bad manager stocking your grocery's shelves. Anyone with know-how could've done it. One of my best friends too was a prolific Heretic 2 modder back in the day, and his stuff was better than Tim Willits's levels and wasn't just bland brown/grey rooms (Quake 1) or repetitive space stations (Quake 2). He well could've been hired by id Software to work for them, so for Quake 1 and 2's case, Tim Willits just happens to be the guy that someone more talented (like my friend) could have taken his spot if a change needed to be.
I think everyone should have the right to make that decision for themselves. There are albums, movies, etc., that I have an extremely difficult time enjoying because I can't separate the art from the artist. Thus, there is music that I think is good but can't stomach because I am so against what the artist stands for that I'm unable to disconnect them no matter how hard I try. Other people are able to do so and there are situations I which I can do that while others cannot.
The video on NSBM and now this. This is why I love Farvann, he is able to take heated topics and break them down objectively, discuss and analyze them calmly and give a final judgement. Most people on the internet can't do that and just scream at each other through a screen, but balance and civil discussion like this are the best way to do online discourse about anything because it hears both sides and respects everyone.
Don't know if I break them down objectively, but I'm trying to create a civil discussion, yes. Because it's so rare on the internet and that annoys and bores me 😄
Honestly, it feels a little different if they're dead. They're not benefitting from your custom and for that reason I've always been okay buying and reading the likes of H.P Lovecraft despite his horrendous side.
To me the most important is if your means of consuming their art ist supporting the artist. Streaming their music, buying their CDs or going to their shows is directly supporting the artist, not just the art. The only way to consume art without supporting the artist is listening to CDs you already bought or illegally downloading their music and never engaging in any conversation about it with anyone
I would like to know why is it so important if I'm directly or not supporting their art. Aren't we all giving our money everyday to people we don't really like? I mean we are always buying products from terrible people in the end.
@@henriquelasneauxI agree completely. Marilyn Manson, for example, made some big mistakes that I don't agree with, but I will still buy his CDs, because that's the art that I love. Yes, that means he gets my $10, but like you said, every day we are giving money to people we don't like without even realizing it!
@@SpookyKid_SpaceAce As for Marilyn Manson, there's also the fact that this is a case that is still in process. We can't really affirm anything about the case, especially knowing that not long ago we had a very similar situation like what happened with Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. I'm just saying we should consider this possibility before any official conclusion. I'm in favor of having some awareness regarding the support we give to certain problematic artists, but this is something so relative that.. in the end, what really matters is that you listen to what you like as long as it doesn't affect your character as a person.
@@henriquelasneaux Yes that's true, and I will always like Marilyn Manson as an artist to some extent, even if he is guilty. I just love his work so much I can't help but like the guy. And yes, I agree, listening to music from problematic artists doesn't mean the listener will become problematic as well, that's just not how it works.
Definitely want a video on Dagon. Inquisition is one of my favourite bands, and I own quite a few shirts I’m a little afraid to wear in public. Then I remember nobody in my town listens to black metal. 🤷🏻
It's crazy that the singer of a pop rock band, a pop rock band i liked alot back in the early and mid 2000s, Ian Watkins, ended up doing something more heinous than any of these black metal singers could touch. The ability to separate the art from the artist in that case is impossible for me. I feel so much for the other people in that band that dedicated their lives to that project for decades.
Watkins is utterly disgusting and has shown not a trace of remorse for the awful things he did. So I'm with you on this one, it's not possible for me to separate the art from the artist in this instance (and I did like Lost Prophets a lot back in the day).
@@justhannah3960 All those times listening to start something, what was once a huge nostalgic part of my musical life, I never thought I was listening to the biggest monster in the music industry. I saw them live for the first time mere months before that news dropped and something did seem kinda off....a very clear disconnect between him and his bandmates. He sounded awful too. I will never get how you can throw so much away to do something so heinous and gross. He was stabbed recently several times in prison.
I think this demonstrates a fourth case not covered by the video. The problematic trait and the art are unlikely to be connected, so I have no issue with the music itself, but the fact I can't hear it without being reminded of this person ruins it for me anyway. The music has been tainted by association due to thoughts and emotions I can't control, despite being a believer in separating art from the artist on an intellectual level.
Farvann, I think you did a great job of explaining the different angles of this topic. The structures made perfect sense. Music and art is up for interpretation and it means something different for everybody, so go enjoy black metal people!🤘🌲🤘 Nice video Farvann!
As a Christian and a fan of all genres of heavy metal, I often wonder about this. Thank you for the video. I think the answer is all of the above. I had a friend recommend Deathspell Omega, which I listened to a few albums. Then I heard the rumors about who might be in the band. I will still listen to them, but I don't pay for their work directly (RU-vid). Most other bands I listen too. The music is there for enjoyment and entertainment, I may disagree with the artist, but it's their story and their art. I'm just in for the ride.
@@malkaviangrin9440It is openly believed, that Mikko Aspa is the singer of DSO. Just search for him, you will find out. Personally, I absolutely don't care, owning some of their records. One of the greatest Black Metal bands of the whole "avantgarde" or experimental realm.
@@malkaviangrin9440Mikko Aspo, who dod/does the vocals for them, is a pretty unsavoury character. If you’re interested, there’s plenty of info to be found on the net. Then there was their album ‘the Furnaces pf Palingenesia’ which mistakenly was, mainly due to the title, being interpreted as fascist/nazist, whilst in reality is a satirical criticism of authoritarianism.
DsO are a prime example of a band who value their art to the point where they use a singer who is politically the total opposite to their own convictions, for his vocal skills ( they stated this in a recent interview).
Thanks for the video! Before the war I wasn't so strict in my tastes, though back then I understood that a piece of an art definitely carries a piece of its artist's soul. But now when every other night I have to sleep in the subway because of missile attacks and read about deaths every day, well, I pay a special attention to what this or that band say about situation in my home.
Understand this point perfectly, a well-known artist should use his position of power responsibly. If he/her uses it to spread disinformation or propaganda, I´m out.
Personally I always separated myself from the art itself, then I don't have to ask pointless questions like "does this artist have similar opinions than mine?"
Another banger farvann, definitely agree on the second hypothesis. Even when an artist may have a set in stone meaning for the art they produce, the beauty of art means i can interpret it through my own lens, using my experiences and beliefs to colour what it means to me. They might say "cleave down the writhing maggot" and to me its "kill the hatred within us all" or something (pretty dramatic example but you get my point lmao)
Hello Farvann, you raised a very important topic, and I respect your open minded aproach. Also I like your videos about black metal where you make joke about the topic, those can make joke from a topic who really understands it, I think you transcended the “black metal” phenomenon and able to view it from a different pespective. This is unique, keep this approach.
Compliments on the video. I recently found out that Reddit has a whole section on asking " is band x okay to listen to?". I was really surprised by that, and a lot of people nowadays don't tend to think for themselves anymore. That's a reason why bands get "cancelled" quickly because people just follow the herd and don't think for themselves. Which is funny if you listen to BM, because being/thinking different is a fundamental aspect of BM. It's good that you try to make people think again. I also think it's funny how much controversy there is in BM. It's a genre about satan and death, created by teenagers from northern Europe. What would you expect?
No people don’t want to support artists that don’t align with their personal values, people should be free to make that choice just like you have the freedom to listen to music without that in mind.
Singing about Satan and death =/= hating people for their skin color or being a rapist. None of your comment is logical even remotely. If you want to separate art from artist that is your prerogative, and I do it myself, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it's justifiable by nature of the art in question
If you like music, just listen to music. People will never be fully aligned with your values, so try to like Albums and music instead of bands, regardless of your ideology or World perspective.
I'm almost communist, I'm vegan and feminist, but I really love such groups as Kristallnacht, Grausamkeit, Satanic Warmaster, Moonblood and so on. JUST BECAUSE they created wonderful, very atmospheric music and had pretty beautiful vocals. Sooo... I think you can love art and hate personality. Cause experience and natural abilities, not their stupid beliefs, made them talented.
You have a lot of depth Farvann and I love when your videos get psychological or possibly philosophical. Regarding what you said lately the media talks about Rammstein being very problematic I know you like their art and so do I big fan. Back in my country there s no info regarding the band s new problems. I'd like to hear your take on this.🖤
I think what was missing here is the spread of the music by problematic people. If you personally can separate art from artist that's great, but doesn't mean everyone else can. Seeing people you respect wearing merch or listening to music from a nazi for example; the casual observer does not see your brainstate when you engage with the music, only that you are doing it, which normalizes the artist. A tacit endorsement is an endorsement nonetheless, and their ideologies come with it whether you intend it to or not unfortunately. And this is especially true for influencers.
I guess it just comes with the territory if you happen to enjoy music from problematic people. It's a sad truth that can only be solved by not showing your love of said music via merch or secretly listening to it; and how hard is that when you have the urge to spread it due to your deep connection to the art?
Your first part was about these problematic people connecting themselves with the artists. Your second part is a completely different topic. I don't think your 27 likes were by people who actually read your nonsense comment. A Nazi will support Nazi bands because that is their ideology, that is the INTENTION of expressing their love for the artist ALONG with the ideology. In your same line of logic reading Lovecraft endorses supporting his views. Does anyone actually think that? No, because its stupid, just like your comment.
This is a new phenomenon, only because in the last few decades people've been thaught to base their personalities and lives on their politics, everytime an artist does or says something they disagree with, everybody gets in their crystal houses and feel like it's a personal attack on their whole existence
@@AvoCamilo Well, that's because the views spread by some of these artists is an attack on their whole existence. You should look up what the Nazi's thought about Jewish people.
For me personally it's a bit all over the place however I usually find it easier to separate criminals from their art as opposed to political opinions. With criminals it's usually a one time offense, it's obvious what they've done is bad and they usually will recieve some form of punishment for it(not that that makes what they did in the first place ok). It feels more cut and dry to me. With nsbm or bands with nazi members I find it much harder to seperate them, even if the music itself does not contain these themes. I am queer and autistic and I do not want to engage with a group of people that less than 100 years ago would have included myself and many of my friends in their genocide. Unlike a criminal case I feel the line between music and political opinion is much more blurred and it's not a case of one event that has happened and transpired but something more constant and residual. Another distinction I make too is who is driving the band forwards and who is the creative force behind the band, if a band one time had a nazi member play with them but it was temporary then that doesn't bother me so much compared to a founding member that is pretty much the creative direction behind the band. This being said there are exceptions, some bands I like I'm aware may have nazi connections but chose not to not research them so I can just enjoy them. I saw Emperor live last year and they brought Faust on stage for a few songs and while overall it was the best live show I've ever seen it definitely felt odd when he was playing. I would also never pay to see certain criminals live, the fact that Inquisition and Gorgoroth are both still headlining festivals despite both containing sex offenders absolutely angers me. I definitely maintain you do have to have some questionable sense of morality to get into black metal lmao, where the line is drawn is different for everybody and people should not be judged for what they choose not to tolerate.
For me I have a set of rules I follow when it comes to supporting artists, whether they are musicians, painters, or writers. I don’t financially support artists who support things that I am fundamentally against or if that artist is against my existence as a human being. I’m unfortunate in the fact that I was born with everything about me being fundamentally different, from my sexuality to having learning and behavioural disabilities. Some people take issue with that even though I didn’t choose any of this, and think I don’t deserve to be treated like a human. I don’t have control over what people think about my right to live but I do have control over whether I financially support those people or not. My rules on this are pretty simple, if an artist hates me for simply breathing then I won’t give them money. If they are dead or no longer make money off their work I may buy a few of their products if I like them.
I have thought about this topic many times, this was really interesting. Please make more videos that are related to philosophical stuff, they're great!
I love it when people dive into the psychology of art. Well done. I'm a black/doom vocalist and lyricist. I agree completely with hypothesis 2 in my case. My emotion regarding the world and life and people inspire my art and my beliefs. But my art is not connected to my beliefs.
Making art is also political as everything in life and the way you use public space to express yourself politically as an artist is important. As an audiophile I can definitely enjoy someone's music even if I'm against the person's ideologies/background etc, however I also consider important the way someone chose to do that -politically-. For example I'm all about downloading a nazi's music for free -if you're so hooked by what you listen- instead of buying their albums, supporting their concerts, buying their merch etc. In general tho its important to not forget the history and not allow these ideologies to be expressed without an answer
Good that you mentioned "artist and art have always been separated in first place". Back in 50s/60s/70s people didn't care about the artists' private life. Even Nergal of Behemoth said in an interview that Elvis Presley, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones etc. would be cancelled as soon as possible if they were about to start their careers nowadays. Personally I don't pay attention to artists' beliefs, private life, controversies etc. because the art matters to me. When it comes to political themes in music, I just listen to the music, sometimes try to understand the message. Also, I appreciate when the political art is made with a passion and honest connection with the ideologies, no matter if it's left-winged or right-winged. Btw, what's that band you have a shirt of? The logo looks beautiful :D
perhaps its nothing wrong elvis and co it's some thing wrong in in cancel culture woke movement and those bloody green activists? perhaps woke scum and metal connot be combined?
I think both problematic traits and art come from the environment in which the person was raised in. Art is there for the person to vent their frustration and, of course, produce music, paintings, you name it. Half the time when the person was making art they didn’t know what would come out and in what form. Art is innocent expression. I still listen to Burzum, knowing what Varg did, because I appreciate the results that came from his creative side of his brain, not his self-destructive side. We all have this Yin-Yang. It all depends on which little voice you end up listening in the heat of the moment.
Sometimes it sucks to have to try to separate. But I learned to because I love burzums music a lot. With my favorite album in particular being Det som engang var. but I haven’t really found anyone else that sounds at least almost exactly the same, but im open to some recommendations. I just don’t agree with how varg is at all, but at the same time burzum is one of my favorite black metal
@AvoCamilo although he certainly stole some riffs, they don't really sound anything alike, and tbf everyone in the early BM scene was ripping off Quorthon.
@@mutavhello6654 Yeh, the riff from Dunkelheit is just from Call from the grave, and the one in War is from Necromansy. To me, Burzum was the only "band" in the first wave of BM that played viking black metal, while straight up ripping off Bathory's style. While all of the other bands, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Emperor, were more inspired by Celtic frost and Venom
That was a great video ! Great topic to discuss ! In my own opinion, that doesn't really matter to anything but that's ok, I really agree with hypothesis 2, I belive the art and the artist is connected even if not on a direct level, art is something singular and unique (in some cases more then others) that I believe can only be created by the artist because of his thougts about the world, his views, his influences and life experiences, therefore connecting the art and the artist even if the art is not directly connected or talks abour the "problematic" side of the artist (probably Burzum being a good example) Another view I have from this topic is that most people only talk about it when the artist is indeed problematic, like having commited crimes or extreme politcal views etc, because when we talk about others artists who have a more "normal" or "non-problematic" view of the world people don't really seem to be concerned about connecting art with the artist, for example, when a artist with a mental illness develops a work people tend to connect both because the artist problem made him see things in his own way and create his art (I hope I'm making my point here), the biggest example of this point is probably Van Gogh which is credited for having and singular view of the world and colors, reflected on his paitings, it is certainly known by most people that he had severe mental problems and people a lot of times credit his way of paiting and representing a view to his troubled and ill way of seeing life and the universe, therefore connecting art and the artist. Or another example is Hitler and his paitings, which tend to be most about landscapes and realism and nothing to do with politics yet people don't really feel comfortable apprecianting the art because of the man who did it (I'm not defending Hitler by any means I'm just talking about art and artist) In conclusion, I do believe art is always connected with the artist even if in a non-direct way because is the artist that crafts the art and it's just one mind doing so therefore connecting both even if the artist wasn't having his thoughts on his "problematic" views during the crafting. This was a very interesting topic to write about and I hope to read more about it in the comments.
People always talk about separating art from the artist in metal becasue of people like Varg or Faust. But no one see issue in for example - modern rap music. Rapers are pretty often out of law, using drugs and other stuff but this is totally fine to society. Imo non metal people should stop demonizing metal and think more widely!
No matter which hypothesis is correct, I feel extremely uneasy about offering my direct financial support, however insignificant, to people who actively promote questionable causes. Even if their art doesn’t reflect their ideologies. That being said, I do realize that a lot of cases of questionable behavior and beliefs could simply never become known to the general public. And I also realize that a lot of great artists of the past could have easily gotten blacklisted according to my approach, had social media and other means of exposure existed in their day… Fully agree with Farvann - there is no single right answer to this dilemma
A good topic to discuss! Personally, I can separate the art from the artist. But if I have a problem with the artist being it his ideology or things he did I will not support him, be it financially, by wearing merch or even recommending him to other people. You can't help to be touched by the music you like and that's ok the bigger question is if you want to support someone you don't agree with or dislike what he has done. So for example I really like the music ofTaake, but I dislike the things he has done and said. In that case I'll listen to them in ways were I don't financially support him (buying his cd's second hand so he doesn't get my money). That being said bands that are directly making music about their problematic traits I don't listen to at all.
In my opinion I can separate art and artist. BUT my problem is to support such artists now! My example: when I start to listen to Black Metal end of the 90s ( damn i am to old…) I want to listen so everything what is possible. And then I come to Burzum. I geared from a lot of people that said to me how good the old albums are. But can I now buy a record from him and support him? I would say no. So until now I never buy a Burzum record. Maybe buy a used one could me a solution for me? Different case. I bought a Album from a band I want to Name here. Years later they switched to the NSBM. Can I still hear them? Yes because the support is done and no new support. All in all it’s hard to judge und decide
Art is magic. When the art becomes bigger than the artist and becomes timeless and enjoyed for generations...that is magic in its purest form. Art is magic because it makes you FEEL something.
I think that art should always be free and uncensored. However, having artistic freedom also means that there are consequences to your artistic expression. For the same reason someone should be free to express themselves artistically, others should be free to choose whether they consume your art or refuse it. As a side note, I am making a clear distinction between art and propaganda. Art stands on its own, and serves itself, propaganda ( such as nsbm) primarily serves to promote a political agenda, one that I refuse to support in any case. Ps I refuse to listen to Burzum. Not because I think Varg is sn idiot, but because I think the music is amateurist rubbish 😂
Interestingly there’s an innate lack of quality usually when it comes to the themes and other things that propaganda depicts. So the lack of skill usually shines through. There’s a reason why a lot of things written by Tumblr, stuff created by conservatives, and overtly political (yes I’m aware this is broad, but most cases of this in the past five years alone was cringe) people end up not being good. Tumblr redesigns of characters are usually agenda driven, so it’s hard to separate the art from the artist in that case. Or Ben Shapiro’s creative endeavors ending up being poorly written and preachy garbage in of itself.
Agree. What has ruined his music to me is that I cannot disasociate it from a very dark time in my life in which I had to deal with horrible people. I feel repulse and hate just when thinking of Famine
There are other hypothesis that are important to consider, and they can be true while any of the other three you presented are also true: - Hypothesis 4: The artist is using the money he gets from the art to fund his "problematic trait". In the case of Varg Vikernes, he stated that back then he used the money he made to arm neo nazi groups in Norway. Would you buy an album if you knew you're arming people to hurt your own? - Hypothesis 5: The art is made through problematic means. This is a variation of hypothesis 4 and is more common in the films and video game industry, for example, Hollywood abusing writers and actors. This one doesn't need to be the same as hypothesis 4 but it often is, as funding this type of art enables more of its methods to repeat again. - Bonus hypothesis: Space and time context. The art was made at a time the problematic trait wasn't problematic, or maybe it happened decades ago and the art is now royalty free or historic, or maybe the artist changed their ways and is not causing any damage anymore, etc you get the point. I put this one as a bonus because it is actually a hundred different hypothesis rolled into one, each being different with some positive and other negative. I think each case has its own weight and should decide if we should or should not separate on a case by case, it's not like we consume hundreds of works a day and can't think about each one separately.
A little something I'd like to add would be that looking at (black) metal, especially from an outsiders perspective, might make it easy to draw a connection between fast, dark and sometimes disturbing music and a musician who's actually a murderer or whatnot himself. However, it is not like metal as a music (or artistic in general) genre has a monopole on problematic people; there's concerning personalitites in every musical scene, even the most peaceful sounding ones. They might be real scumbags, but still are able to create something beautiful, pretty and widely accepted.
My biggest problem with separating art from artist is right here, in the black metal scene. Black metal has giant problem with nazis. By listening to their output, even if you don't support them directly, you are creating a save space for them, where they can freely express themselves. The result is that i, a person of colour who likes black metal, am not feeling comfortable attending black metal concerts because chances are that there are gonna be at least few nazis. It's the paradox of tolerance.
Agreed. I would also like to add that I'm starting a campaign to make underground hip hop shows in Detroit more inclusive to white people. Because there might be some people there who don't like white people. It's the paradox of tolerance you see.
@@deconsecrator5767 Yeah, that's fair. Racism is stupid. Like assholes are gonna be everywhere, but if artists in community actively promote hateful ideologies it needs to be addressed. And it doesn't matter what colour of your skin is.
Who cares if someone is uncomfortable of going to concerts? We're talking about black metal. Were people comfortable attending the earlier Mayhem concerts where the main decoration was decapitated pig heads?
@@royfoy8951 The statement is simple. Zero tolerance to nazis. Period. And this includes not listening to their music, not buying their merch and not attending their concerts.
very good idea at the end. our teacher always used to tell us that a book's history starts only after it is released, and its fate is decided by the readers, not the writer
very insightful and interesting commentary on the topic, YES, your english is great. Commenting for youtube engagement because everyone in the scene needs your content
I actually never given it too much thought but one thing comes to mind is how can i separate art from the artist when the artist himself didn't do so!... Anyway, nice topic, and channel. You have a new subscriber here, i have yet to watch your videos. Keep it up 😉👌
My ultra-condensed take on such a tricky point is that everything is connected so you cannot separate art from the artist. Even if art follows its own path afther being released (in literature that' s the theory of reception, and it's so deep you can lose an aircraft carrier into it), someone created it. Even if their motivations are taken aside, it's an action you can't deny. Or put it simply: if I give a roundhouse kick to my neighbour I can't unkick him after that. Even if it's a kick wreathed with technique and aestethical beuty, something only seen in legends, it was me who kicked the neighbour. But this doesn't EVER justify the culture of cancellation... But let's not open that watermelon (it sounds way better in Spanish)
I can personally separate that - I can listen to the music without personally feeling bad about artists' personal lives (in this sense it doesn't really matter to me which hypothesis is true for an artist I listen to). BUT there's the issue of increasing their impact (not only of their music, but maybe also of their problematic traits/views/beliefs) just by listening to them - e.g. they get more listens on Spotify etc. The more impact a band has, the more people can be swayed by their defective personal views/beliefs/deeds. That's the real issue for me, although I still listen to some bands that have this kind of problems (I gotta admit I do feel a bit hypocritical about that though).
Your converting theory was beautiful! And my personal view on this subject is that music is just a deep way of speaking about our deepest feelings. An artist has multiple feelings meaning that a murder may have his dark desire but that typically isn't the sole emotion. They may be cold bloodied towards others but have the brightest, heck the warmest feeling towards music that they just scream that love in that most well spoken way imaginable 🌈 So, while listening to a song you may hear a few chords that speak about their dark side but you may also hear the brighterside about whomever. While we all truly know very little I believe it depends on the song. I have to say again your theory of converting from the universe, God, Goddess or whatever has opened my mind! Love it! ❤
I saw the title of this video and I was like "Oh man Farvann would never make a risky video like this" Oh wait...Good to see you tackling the topic even at the risk of the downvotes.
The reason why people seem to always be having this conversation nowadays is essentially an oversupply issue...both of content and information. In the underground scene of the 90s, getting hold of a new project to listen to was much harder and the information about that project was largely confined to reading interviews in fanzines. So people weren't so fussy. If you managed to get hold of a demo or album release from a band and you liked the music, and the imagery presented with it then it was all good. Nowadays is different, people have a lot more access to the more private sections of an artist's life that they may potentially get into. Combine this with the glut of releases that are only a simple search away from being acquired, and people have got much, much more pickier. It's not just enough for an artist to be of a genre and sound you like, but every aspect of that artist gets examined. In some ways it's very understandable, there is so much coming down the pike that people simply can't be into everything, so the criteria gets tightened as a kind of coping mechanism. It's also a symptom of *everything* being politicised. Back in the day, it simply wasn't like that.
Ironically the very last thing you say about the topic in the video is the one I agree the most with. I will listen to a band with what people consider "morally wrong" lyrics if I enjoy the music. A great example of this is Malevolent Creation's "They Breed", most of the lyrics are fine up until the very end of the song where a slur is uttered and some people would and in fact have stopped listening to the band just because of that. However for me, it is actually the song that made me want to listen to the band more, why? Not because I think the lyrics is some great message, but because of the way things physically sound. The vocals, guitars, bass and drums, the way they all simply sound to me is worth me ignoring anything in the lyrics just simply because I enjoy the music so much. So I say, yes. Just don't be a pussy and listen to music if you enjoy it, because just like following someone on social media, listening to a song and enjoying the way it SOUNDS does not mean by default you share or support any of the beliefs of the actual creator, and personally I don't think the song even reflects what the artist believes, but that's a whole other story.
A friend and I were just discussing this topic... I believe in separating the art from 'whatever'. Good art is good art. Period. These days, you can't do ANYTHING without 'offending' someone, so... whatever. In my humble opinion, like what you genuinely like.
I’ve been a devout Christian and a black metal fan ever since I discovered it as a kid when MTV would play it occasionally. Gorgoroth was a band I adored but had no idea they were the extreme edgy Satanists that they were. I still respect it but I don’t listen to it a lot now. Then there’s Deicide, I torrented them ages ago and it was labeled “Decide.” Imagine my shock when RU-vid becomes a thing and see it’s actually Deicide and see the lyrics lol. Long story short, it’s easy in the metal genre to not even care or notice any message with a lot of bands. Since lyrics are the only written message it’s usually not even important in some bands so easy to ignore.
If the music is different from the musicians/band: hell yes, if the music is used to spread disgusting ideologies: hell no. That's my way of handling it.
Also I think most people don't even check lyrics, probably the reason why comments under NSBM videos are way too positive, if they would understand every lyric they probably have a harder time listening.
Bruh i was listening to my dreams of 8 from satanic warmaster since my 16 and i only found out about a year ago. Because i have never read the lyrics of any song in carelian And yeah i still listen to nsbm even if i already know what they are saying. The same way i listen to omixli a greek anrcho communist band and operation mindcrime .
Comments for the comment god! Thanks for your approach. Always glad to see you getting onto topics you think are worth talking about, difficult or not. Klasse 👍
This is a tricky topic, and I’m glad that you weighed in on this discussion, Farvann. I’m newer to black metal, so my example will be different, but shows my thought process. In high school I fell in love with the galloping riffs and soaring vocals of Iced Earth. As someone who is more in the classical liberal/libertarian way of thought, I found it interesting when Jon Schaffer (founding member and rhythm guitarist for Iced Earth) was creating a project called Sons of Liberty. I gave it a listen, and my immediate thought was “the riffs are cool but this is a lot of bullshit right wing (American, not European) propaganda.” I found a chat board that Jon lead on FB by accident, and lo and behold I found myself swimming in a far right extremist chat room - think Alex Jones level. I closed that window and never opened it again. Anyway, back to my point, did this change my opinion of Iced Earth? No. Iced Earth never really discussed those topics and you can tell he tried to keep that out of his art. However, it definitely lead me to never listen to his side projects ever again, since I knew it was right wing extremism on display. Anyway, it did not surprise me at all when it was revealed that Jon Schaffer was at the Capitol on January 6th. I’ll still listen to Iced Earth, but I probably won’t wear any of their old merch that I have in public ever again. So tl;dr: I can separate the art and artist so long as the art doesn’t directly discuss the troublesome issue itself or more accurately try to influence people to join them in that troublesome way of life.
@@RidinMyGrandmasCadillac While "nothing wrong" is not quite correct, you could say that his case has been blown out of proportion completely. The fact that he got cancelled so bad for that is pretty insane, considering all the other criminals in the metal scene, and in the mainstream pop as well, that have done far worse. The guy didn't kill, assault, or molest anyone. Yet he became the big bad of the metal scene for a while. Crazy.
For some reason your replies just came through in my notifications… that’s kinda weird, YT. Anyway, I agree that he didn’t do anything explicitly evil or malicious. I just found his political views to be a bit too extreme. His Sons of Liberty project produced some quality songs… hell, I enjoy people riffing on the Fed, but it was a bit too far for me - though you could certainly just say he was being artistic. In the chat room associated with that side project, it was really radical in there. I’m not making a judgment on him personally for 1/6, and it was certainly blown out of proportions to the level of “crime.” I just wanted to relay my personal experience with a band that I absolutely love in Iced Earth… and still love. I can look past it with Iced Earth, less so with Sons of Liberty. On black metal, I’m relatively new to the genre, but Enslaved brought me in, and then I fell in love with Emperor and have continued to dive into the genre from there, especially following Ihsahn around. I understand that there is a cloud around Emperor and Faust in particular, but I think it is relatively easy to separate the music from the crime there. I’m just saying that I think that the two are separate except in certain circumstances where a direct agenda is being pushed which crosses a line for me.
I follow the principle in hypothesis 1 - does the art convey the problematic tendencies of the individual? if the answer is no, then i couldn't care less about what the musician believes in or what fetishes they might have, as they are cleanly separated from the music. Prime case in point: Karl Logan from Manowar.
I always separate the art and the artist if it's something I like. I do this with a band, I dunno if you know it, called Durbatuluk. The music is great but the guy behind it is too funny and too nice to be a black metalhead /joking 😂😂 I think that if you like something and the artist doesn't make the final product part of their problematic trait you should totally separate the two. I mean at the end of the day we experience the final product so we shouldn't care about anything else. Obviously I would think that if that product in any case supports the artist to do something of its problematic trait, like helping the artist to get financiary support for maybe an extremist act then I would stop "buying" that product to stop supporting problematic things. I wouldn't give money to Varg to buy a lighter or to Gaahl to buy a knife or whatever, y'know?
In todays world we are bombarded with news about famous people but is it really that important what man A or man B does in private life if we like the music? Second thing black metal itself is not a safe genre there is no such thing as safe black metal... that music in general was created to be provocatove and not for "normalnie," people. Also I always tough w hating Christians wanting their doom is ok for most metal fans, but not liking other religions or jews make them a natzi? Kind of funny of course not pointig fingers at anyone or anything just my personal toughts. Also personally If i like music i just dont dig ad much about the artist i just enjoy the music period. Have a nice sunday everyone.
i separate it always. i don’t care what the musicians do, if the music sounds good, i’m buying it. edit: yes, even when the lyrics and topics of the band are “problematic” i don’t care. good music = take my money
I think that this kind of video need to be much longer, because while everything you mentioned was on point, you didn't mention time, or how the rest of the band acts after the show of the trait. For example watain, a very extreme black metal band, had a member who happened to salute with ns ways in a photoshooting, after that, he got kicked out, and was criticized by the rest of the band, this is a time where you can separate the art from the artist. Another case would be, if I learn about an artist who is a murderer, then i will run through his songs that i like and see the lyrics, if they are connected then i wipl never be able to see the artist the same way, if not then i will separate him from the art but i won't support him in live shows etc. Apart from all of them though, i will never be able to see a case like of varg vikernes like an artist ever again and i won't be able to separate him from his art. Greetings from Greece😁
This is also actually a great topic. He mentioned Faust for commiting murder. He also mentioned the vocalist of As I Lay Dying and his attempt to have his wife assassinated. Both have done their time. Yet with Faust, at least with what little I have seen, it does seem like he understands what he did. He is living with it. Im not sure how me he regrets it, but he seems to have some understanding it was wrong. Yet, once again from what little I have seen, I dont get that as much with the vocalist of AILD. He just got out of prison, jumped right back into things, and it didnt seem to bother him. An example outside of metal is Brandon Sanderson, a fantasy author. He actually used to be pretty homophobic. He didnt support same sex marriage in the US because of his religious beliefs. So I know people who still wont read his books, yet is was a few years ago he came out and said he actually no longer holds those beliefs and supports the LGBTQ+ community. So even looking at how time has played a factor and how these people change seems to also be something to consider.
Yeah and when he was asked about it in an interview he rambled about a whole bunch of nothing 🤷♂️ they kicked him because of money, not morals. They wouldn't be as big ss they are today if they had a nazi in the band.
@@BananaGeekLordok i can hear that, redemption is important indeed. But it can be difficult sometimes, for example what you said about sanderson may be true but he also might just said that because of the rise of the lgbtq community and thought that as an opportunity.
Never have I given a shit about the artist while discovering new music. If the music is good enough I become interested in the artist, and if I like what I find, great. If I don't, shit the music is still good.
Very well done video dude!!! I would say that very last statement fits the bill, and cancel culture and outside virtue signaling should never influence what you listen to in personal preference.
You can try and separate art from the artist all you like but the fact remains is that the art wouldn't exist without the artist in the first place. Its impossible to seperate them logically speaking, but we can pretend if it make us feel better. What I do is that I recognize that everyone is nuanced, and that just because some guy did some bad thing doesn't mean he's a villain who only does bad things and can't change.
Okay, white knight. I'm sure you feel like a good person behind your keyboard. At the end of the day, I'm still going to wear my absurd shirt in public 😂
Oh, man. Farvann spent a week in the forest and transformed into Philosophervann again. 🤔 This is a very interesting video. I have two thoughts... 1. What you said about "the art becomes bigger than the artist" is true. Part of the meaning of a song is what the artist puts into it, and part of the meaning is what the listener takes out of it. And if the listener interprets the lyrics differently than the artist does, he may be misjudging the art, the artist, or both. This makes it all the harder to answer the question of separating art from artist; maybe the words *are* harmless, and *I'm* "problematic" because I'm seeing something in the song which isn't really there. Or maybe the words *are* harmful, and I'm too naive to see it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; so is everything else you might find in art. 2. I think there are three factors to consider: my opinion of the art, my opinion of the artist, and my behavior toward the art (will I buy it, will I listen to it, etc.). I think sometimes people confuse changing their *behavior* with changing their opinion of the art itself. For example: Louis: "That's a nice painting. I will buy it." Farvann: "That painting was done by a man with a mustache who died in 1945." Louis: "Oh, he was evil. I won't buy it after all." "Now I won't buy it" is not the same thing as "Now I think the painting is ugly." I can judge the art (good painting) and the artist (bad person) separately. Refusing to buy the art based on the artist has nothing to do with my judgement of the art itself in this case. TL;DR version: Welcome back from your trip. Nice video! Still waiting for the Sovlmate app. 🤘🙂
After a few years of psychotherapy, I suspect nobody really knows why they do anything. We are all quite complexly conditioned by our experiences and genes. So I suspect 1 and 3 apply simultaneously, which works like hypothesis 2. But in the end, you are right. If art enters the world it creates itself new. And after years the real creator is mostly forgotten.. unless he did something bad, from the viewer's point of view. Example: HP Lovecraft.
I don't necessarily separate the art from the artist, I just don't give a fuck in most cases. I listen to a lot of NSBM and don't agree with them politically, but I also listen to a lot of Satanic bands and don't agree with them religiously.
Funny that I found this video today. Recently I have been thinking that after the art "leaves" the hands of it´s creator it becomes an "independent entity" and does not "belong" to the artist anymore. A good example is a band named Forgotten Tomb. Many people have found cathartic experience by listening this band. Herr Morbid said he was disappointed by that and he was actually hoping that more people would find inspiration to kill themselves by listening his music.
What's truly hilarious is that Varg is not remotely as "racist" or "problematic" as he's made out to be. The man has the most neutral political stance, lives in a countryside with his Family and has a sense of patriotism/tribalism or whatever you wanna call it. Whatever Varg has said about races is scientifically true, he's not some hateful maniac , in fact he even admires Native Americans. Try paying attention to him instead of reading BS on the internet.
@@mrvonel3016 >implying black people aren't faster than white people on average Keep palming your face, you might learn something about frontal cortex too
8:04 this is similar in meaning to the english phrase "death of the author"- it essentially means that once the literature has been published, anything the author says about it is completely irrelevant, as is any personal meaning the author invested into it at the time of writing because books are meant to be read and interpreted on their own. i see this applied to H.P. Lovecraft's works quite often, as he was definitely a character.
I saved an entire 3rd world family today by choosing to drink Coca-Cola and watch Disney instead of listening to b*rzum. Tell me I'm a good person. NOW.
I can separate the art and the artist. I do this every time I listen to Wagner. I separate it whenever I listen to Burzum or Peste Noire. The art is what matters most to me. Some horrible people in this world have created some amazing music or writings.
One other example is: black metal, its mostly about satanism etc, but Im no satanist at all! I believe in God and Jesus, but Im no Christian in terms of religion. I like black metal as the music, I dont give a rats a$$ about the topic.
Interesting video. Just a couple weeks ago there was a band named Panzerfaust who was canceled from a gig for their beliefs. Uada backed them and said these claims were ridiculous. Panzerfaust said they were a political but People have argued that their name and going to the Canadian truck convoy. Others argue they’re signed by a German label and they hate all political sides of government. Anywho keep them coming man, you’re the best.
Unpopular opinion, but I think exactly the same. If you look at the Norwegian scene of that time, you realize that it was actually completely insane. Euronymous threatened Varg to torture and kill him. I can understand Varg's decision, what should he have done? Wait and hope that Euronymous was only joking? Back then, with all those lunatics, you couldn't be sure.
It seems to depend on what a person thinks 'art' actually is. I believe something along the lines of what the Greeks or Norse thought, in that art is some type of ominpresent consciousness that our highly developed brains can tap into. The artist is just the vessel because the art exists separately from the artist. It is something like turning a light on in a dark room to reveal a painting on the wall that was unseen before. The artist is not the painting, the artist is just the person that turned on the light.
Mir ist völlig egal wie die Künstler drauf sind oder welche politischen Ansichten sie vertreten. Solange die Musik nicht als Trägermedium politischer Botschaften missbraucht wird, ist alles gut. Mich interessiert auch nicht, welche politischen Ansichten mein Bäcker hat. Ich würde auch Brot von Varg Vikernes kaufen, wenn's gut ist.
It really depends on the problem society has with the artist. In short: you can't EVER separate the art from the artist. Society gives meaning/framework to art and makes us look at things differently like 120 years ago people will associate other things to a certain painting than today. Even if the 'art' has nothing to do with the problems of the artist (let's say the artist is a neonazi), you're still supporting, making promotion for and paying a neonazi... That's unacceptable. If this person gets more famous and literally gets on a bigger stage you're helping spreading the message, facilitate recruitment and help them fund neonazi activities albeit indirectly. If the artist is a child molester, has a small amount of creative input, the band handles this correctly and distances themselves from that while the molester is working to reintegrate into society and better its' ways, then it is acceptable to continue to listen to the band. It's very simple.
