Serhii Plokhy: History of Ukraine, Russia, Soviet Union, KGB, Nazis & War | Lex Fridman Podcast  

Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. Transcript: lexfridman.com/serhii-plokhy-transcript 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - Eight Sleep: eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings - Shopify: shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - AG1: drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil 1:18 - Collapse of the Soviet Union 17:27 - Origins of Russia and Ukraine 30:30 - Ukrainian nationalism 38:13 - Stepan Bandera 1:07:13 - KGB 1:22:11 - War in Ukraine 1:58:27 - NATO and Russia 2:09:30 - Peace talks 2:23:17 - Ukrainian Army head Valerii Zaluzhnyi 2:29:54 - Power and War 2:40:45 - Holodomor 2:47:17 - Chernobyl 2:57:51 - Nuclear power 3:07:28 - Future of the world

Whoever was doing the subtitles kept writing "Kazakhs" whenever he said "Cossacks". There's a big difference between the two groups.

Lex, I don't know how often you read your comments but listening to your podcasts with political thinkers and historians has done a lot for me. I started college at 16 and have delayed my graduation over and over again because I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. I majored in Political Science. The amount of knowledge that I had gained from these podcasts had inspired me to open up a few books and it reignited my interest in my field, making me happy to finally decide to make a career out of this. Thank you

Better later then never: 1st Ukrainian voice on this podcast for last 2 years

You mentioned the "Russian Hand" in the Donbass , But you failed to mention the "American Hand" at the Maidan

You need to invite Timothy Snyder too.

There are mistakes in the subtitles. When Serhii Plokhy talks about Cossacks, in the subtitles we see "Kazakhs".

Пан Сергій - фаховий та поважний вчений. На питання "в чому сенс вторгнення в 2022?" майстерно почав з "коли війна почалась в 2014..." Brilliantly

I also liked Timothy Snider’s work of Ukrainian history. Such a great work. With it’s dark and bright sides revealed. Thank you Lex for interesting interview ❤

Please lex, have more historians. Thanks for the conversations

One minor correction (at 18:44): "Once we had Czechoslovaks, now we have Czechs and Slovaks." Sorry for going nitpicky, but compared to the others mentioned, it's a bit misleading. Slovaks, Moravians and Czechs (going east-to-west) can technically be taken as three stages of settling in one direction of the slavic diaspora. But Czechoslovakia and the idea of a joint nation is an invention of the early 20th Century, made out of sheer convenience to make a better case for RE-establishing a country after the breakup of Austro-Hungaria. Sadly enough, the wider English culture remains oblivious to anything that went on between the German and Russian lands prior to Napoleon winning at Austerlitz. Like... Czechs having a fairly singificant presence in Europe for centuries as a nation and kingdom (until the 1620 Battle of White Mountain), even having one of their major monarchs as the Holy Roman Emperor (Charles IV, recently elevated from virtually-unknown to somewhat-known worldwide thanks to the game Kingdom Come: Deliverance). Czechs and Slovaks exist as separate nations/ethnics/... since pre-1000AD and in the case of Czechs, the oldest written local sources go down to the 13th Century. Differences between Czechs and Moravians are barely worth mentioning, as both groups always maintained close ties. But Slovaks were largely separated from much of their western kin most of the time, mostly due to geographic and political reasons. The Czechoslovak get-together-again after WW1 was an idealistic political stunt that looked great on paper back then, but was doomed to fail in the long run in any case. This would be worth a whole socio-economic lecture. Also, the thing about "Bohemia" and "Bohemians" is a sad historical misnomer worthy of an entire lecture too.

Lex, this is a great interview! Have you considered mediating a debate between Plokhy and Mearsheimer, whose theories go unchallenged?

from 2:43:00-2:47:00 in this interview: I was taken with S.P.'s way of expressing a very wise observation. Thanks, Lex, for once again helping us to understand the issues of the day by interviewing some of the most thoughtful folk on these topics.

11:52 Serhii mentions that "level of russification is much higher" in the post soviet state of Russia. The closed captions says 'unification' rather than 'russification.' This mistranslation/ failure at writing the correct words used is something that should be corrected, as the meaning conveyed by those two terms is strikingly different for everyone who is not perhaps Russian.....

This episode is a special one truly considering what is going on in the world right now. Also, I'm Lithuanian so I'm especially grateful for this one, Lex. Thank you Lex and Mr. Serhii Plokhy!

Started watching this, 30 mins in I paused, read several works by, or about Pushkin, Tolstoy, Trotsky, Dostoevsky, and others. Now I am coming back to finish watching the rest of the video, with some context. Thanks Mr Friedman...

Thank you both for a truly worthwhile 3+ hours, previously I had a rather sketchy knowledge (very sketch)y!) of Ukrainian history, I now feel I might be in a position to learn a lot more - re-read Bloodlands, listen to your program once again, buy a book or two of the professor’s books.

I am a Canadian with mixed Russian-Ukrainian ethnic background. Therefore the blunder in Canadian Parliament concerns me directly. It is so good to see that Dr. Plokhy is given a floor to lay out his views. I congratulate Lex on making it happen, Lex’s interview style is excellent for seeking the truth. In order to have a 3D view of a complex subject, one must be able to view it from several perspectives. In the last 10 to 15 years there has been a lot of academic research in Canada, USA, Sweden, Germany, Poland that was able to use the previously inaccessible archives on the difficult subject of nationalism in interwar, WW2 and post-WW2 period. There is also research on the role of Ukrainian extreme nationalists and far-right nationalists in the last few decades. I would encourage those who want to better understand the subject to become familiar with the works of those researcher, some which are given below. It is a pity that the OUN(b)’s own involvement in atrocities against Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians is not given sufficient attention. Focusing exclusively on collaboration with German Nazis does not address heads-on the fascist ideology of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist Bandera’s faction known as OUN(b) by it Ukrainian acronym. The fact that OUN(b) fought, as they claim, for Ukrainian independence does not absolve them from either collaboration with German Nazis nor their own atrocities. Similarly, the fact that Stalin collaborated with the Nazi Germany does not absolve OUN(b) actions and those persons involved in them. John-Paul Himka Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, Canada. He is a Canadian, an ethnic Ukrainian who believes it is critical to face the difficult history heads-on, rather than ignoring, cherry-picking or worse yet, whitewashing it. This is what allows one to separate wheat from the chaff and tell the good from the evil. He considers that heroization of OUN(b) and whitewashing their atrocities is a bland spot in the collective memory of the Ukrainian diaspora. This is in fact the root cause of the blunder of the Canadian Parliament giving a standing ovation to Yaroslav Hunka, a SS Galizien Nazi member, rather than some inexplicable mix-up which the Government officials cite. www.academia.edu/104655067/War_Criminality_A_Blank_Spot_in_the_Collective_Memory_of_the_Ukrainian_Diaspora Chrystia Freedland, Deputy Prime Minister was present in the Parliament and she clapped to Hunka enthusiastically. She is fluent in Ukrainian and Russian and spent a significant amount of time in Ukraine and Russia. She cannot plausibly claim ignorance of the subject of the involvement of Ukrainian nationalists and their atrocities during WW2 in inter- and post-war periods against Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians. Her grandfather Michael Chomiak was the editor of Krakowski Visti, a Ukrainian Nationalistic newspaper in WW2 period that collaborated with Nazis and published antisemitic material and promoted Galizien SS Division. Chrystia Freeland must be well aware of John-Paul Himka research, who is, in fact, her uncle and son-in-law of Michael Chomiak. Freeland is actually acknowledged by Himka for helping to get some details rights in one of John-Paul Himka’s earlier papers. Skillful propaganda will certainly use some true facts, and the mere use of them by propaganda does not render them false. To effectively respond to propaganda it is essential to be able to handle the difficult truth heads-on, rather than brushing it away by saying “it is propaganda”. Silencing or ignoring those who point to the difficult truth does a disservice to the truth. So far, Canadian Government was unable to handle the truth on the difficult subject of the past Nazi war criminal. Anders Per Rudling, associate professor at the Lund University in Sweden. His research included Ukrainian Nationalism interwar, WW2 and post-WW2 period. Also - the Ukrainian Nationalism in Canada and whitewashing OUN (b) history in post-WW2 period. He authored many academic papers, as well as articles in the press on the subject. Below is one of the most recent ones. Attempts were made on to silence him and his research. Rudling, P. A. (2022). The Far-Right Ukrainian Diaspora's Policing of History. In N. Mörner (Ed.), The Many Faces of the Far Right in the Post-Communist Space: A Comparative Study on Far-Right Movements and Identity in the Region (pp. 42-60). sh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1640388/FULLTEXT01.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1SzqDH53e9ffiPJIhYQ__jKYzlNRtV3xzFuomlz9nrw3eqz8SuWKh_SPU#page=42 Rudling, P. A., & McBride, J. (2024). By opening up the archives, Canada can finally address its past with Nazi war criminals. The Globe and Mail. www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-by-opening-up-the-archives-canada-can-finally-address-its-past-with/#comments Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe, Research Associate and Lecturer Friedrich-Meinecke-Institut in Germany. His PhD thesis was on Stepan Bandera. Here is an article he wrote on the subject: www.academia.edu/9780848/Stepan_Bandera_The_Life_and_Afterlife_of_a_Ukrainian_Nationalist_Fascism_Genocide_and_Cult_Stuttgart_Ibidem_Press_2014_ Ivan Katchanovsky, professor at the University of Ottawa www.academia.edu/41023574/The_Far_Right_the_Euromaidan_and_the_Maidan_Massacre_in_Ukraine

As a Ukrainian I'd like to note a thing about languages. Ukrainian is really close to Belarusian and I've heard conversations where two people would speak their native languages and it was easily comprehensive. As far as I know russians have troubles comprehending both Ukrainian and Belarusian languages due to very different vocabulary and very distinct phonetics.

Very nice overview of the historical landscape around Ukraine. Like the way Serhii tells history, it's not boring at all. Read one of his books, worth reading

On a visit to Soviet Kiev in 1981, with a friend with relatives there, it was still apparent that Ukrainians were being spied upon. In fact our Intourist guides were particularly interested in my friend, whose name ended in "-enko", an Ukrainian surname, and were very inquisitive about our movements on the days when we did not take part on official visits or outings with the tour group. They were also rather inquisitive during our stays in Leningrad and Moscow, asking me, with a few months of evening school Russian lessons, a lot of questions about my friend, who spoke rather more Russian than I did.

Wow, Lex. It took me three days to get through the whole thing. Boy was it worth it. This was a really good interview! Thanks.

Would love to see you interview Zelensky (and ask all the hard questions I personally want to hear answered as a Ukrainian) !

I absolutely loved the podcast. Serhii is a very intelligent and an interesting person to talk and listen to. I love how he keeps to be neutral and professional when talking about Ukraine and Russia even though he comes from Ukraine.

By far, the best interviews (IMHO) are the ones with historians. Mindbenders all!

Great interview Lex, very good to see more intelligent people on your podcast! Mr. Plokhy shed so much light on Russia-Ukraine conflict very interesting conversation and I loved the quote in the end!

My great grandmother was from Nova Lesna, Slovakia so I am eager to hear this episode and learn more about that time. Many thanks

How is Ukraine a Democracy ? When the "election" outcome was exactly what Victoria Nuland described in that "phone call"

Genius guest Lex. Love the way you draw the info out.

Lex always gets the best guests. I respect his interview style and his intellect, he’s not an ideologue.

It’s so important to hear more Ukrainian voices on platforms like Lex’s to connect more to the ongoing war and the people in it.

What a great, deeply informative episode. It's a shame it has more than 10 times less views than the one with Tucker

When professor says “we should do what our predecessors did in the Cold War” what does he mean? He was in the Soviet Union at a time, studying in a University in Moscow. Who is “we” in this case and who are his “predecessors”?

Finland is not same as Ukraine from Putins point of view

Lex, when the full scale invasion of Ukraine started I was finishing my philosophy undergrad at Columbia University. Being a Marine Corps veteran I decided to volunteer and headed to Ukraine (first time there with no ties to the country) during my time there I got to emerge myself into the culture, the people, the history, the sorrows, pains, loses, and victories. I went in part (to the extent that we can understand a segment of why we do what we do) for the love of what the Ukrainian people were doing (and not out of hate for Russia). Just wanted to thank you for being the voice of reason and knowledge. I listened to your interview with Tucker Carlson (and many other referring to this war) and your ability to listen to and acknowledge multiple perspectives is extremely refreshing. Keep doing such an amazing job. May you continue to spark brilliant discussions around the world. P.S. would love you to interview the president of El Salvador, Nayib Armado. It would be a fascinating podcast

Aleksandar, congratulations for questions asked, as well as a very calm manner of interviewing respected Ukrainian Professor. Both of you have a nice Slavic accent and I am happy that you are not hiding it. It would be interesting if your interviewee would be in a debate in which slightly different opinions would be on the table. However, the Ukrainian Professor delivered his version of the truth. Another dimension which I want to stress is that this horrible conflict had to be avoided, because Slavic people are killing Slavic people. Let us talk about the outcome of this conflict in a couple of years, hoping that in the meantime the entire Europe will not be already totally destroyed, or burning. Actually, I like the patriotic segments of the speech of your interviewee.

Thanks, Lex, for the awesome podcast episode, especially in these uncertain times. The guest was really inspiring, and I learned a lot about the nearby Slavic regions from the impressive historical insights shared.

Lex, well done. Your guest is one of the best researchers of the history of East Europe. Now, waiting for Timothy Snyder...

Thank you Lex and Serhil Plokhy for the historical review.

Thank you for this incredible interview. Thank you Lex for doing this.

The "Cossacks" are wrongly transcribed in the subtitles as "Kazakhs". These are two very different things. Please correct it.

Великолепный выпуск! Огромное спасибо🙏🏼 привет из Москвы 💔

One of the most important guests finally on the channel. Please read his books. Can’t wait for Timothy Snyder.

This is a balanced approach on discussing the current war. Well done, Lex! Listening to your podcasts is an antidote to my biases.

maybe it's time to interview Timothy Snyder?

I really appreciated this. Thank you - I have subscribed and look forward to listening to other podcasts.

Excellent interview question; Serhii Plokhy, thank you on providing more clarity to reality of present situation. Many important questions that was not asked: why Ukraine does not condemn Wolyn massacre, why cult of Bandera, and cult of Ukrainian SS division, why so many 😊Ukrainians joined in murdering Jews during Holocaust?

Dr Fridman, thank you for doing what you do, I so enjoy your analysis and general conversation with people of all backgrounds

Would be lovely for Lex to facilitate discussion between Mearsheimer (or someone else) and this professor. I feel like both have some holes in their line of argumentation and it would enrich us the listeners even more 😉

Wonderful! Listened for whole 3 hours

The Canadian parliament clearly said he fought against Russia in WW2. They knew exactly who he was.

Lex, I admire your dedication to get to the bottom of issues however complicated and tangled these issues may be. Great podcast. Thank you for your work!

Lex, it was another great podcast. When will you be interviewing Serhii Horoshiy?

I love videos like this. It gets into the details of history without the crazy hysteria that people seem to want to engage in. I actually wish this was longer.

Thanks for this interview, now I want to read this man's books,.❤

I hope you have Henry Rollins as a guest. A conversation between you two would be fascinating given Henry's travels and humanitarian views.

At 3:12:46, I understand the reasoning, but the “focus on what did we do right in the Cold War” argument does not apply to today’s situation. Russia’s actions more closely resemble September in 1939 than anything during the Cold War. As a historian, he should understand how passivity and appeasement to genocidal dictators is ultimately viewed in history.

Amazing historical talk, for learning from experts, and how your own personal perspective from family history played into the conversation. I'm new to your podcasts, but avidly watching them now. Thank you.

@Lex, thank you very much for this amazing episode of podcast! I am Ukrainian, so naturally I am biased on the topic of war, but still it's very important for me that you invite people that tell a comprehensive history of East European region. Many people don't understand the drama, difficulty, confusion, connection, dilemmas that surround this discussion between Ukraine and Russia. Many people tend to simplify or narrow down the path of the history into the war as a result of one or two simple historical moments. But truth is, nothing is easy when it comes to Ukraine and Russia. That's why EVEN inside just Ukraine, there will be people telling one story and yet in the same country there will be people telling the other story. There are a lot of emotions going around and very little logical sense. So, I appreciate you inviting a well educated person to talk real historical, political, social facts that happened in this region and led to what has happened.

I hosted 30-40 player diplomacy games for people back in 2014 where each player got to play as a country and roleplay modern geopolitics. I didn't understand at the time (was a kid), but someone told me it was very important to include Ukraine as a separate country from Russia. I split them up and gave Ukraine control of Romania and some Baltic states (every part of the world had to be owned by some player at game start, there were only 40 players maximum and previous game hosts had Ukraine and Russia together). I didn't realize at the time the geopolitical implications for what I did. All I knew was that I made someone happy and it meant a lot to me.

As a Ukrainian, i'd love to see you interview Zelensky. Even ask him complex questions as some of the viewers has already suggested here. I like the interviewer. The guy thinks, always tries to ask follow-up questions. Respect. Not browning-nose to you, just like the approach and the personality.

Thank you for finally interviewing someone who is not obviously pro-Russian when it comes to this war.

I wish to see discussion on this topic between profesor Measheimer, Dougles Mac Greggor, profesor Sachs vs Serhii Plokhy

Delighted to listen to the talk. It seems to me that, closer to the beginning of the fourth hour of the talk, both gentlemen started to feel tired, especially Lex.

Thank you for this discussion 🇺🇦

This is in agreement with Pro. Snyder’s classes on Ukraine. Nice to see academics in agreement

At the 1:41 mark Serhii talks about Ukraine being a truly bilingual country. Could this also apply also in Slovakia? Not to quibble on a minor point, but I think many Slovaks can speak and understand Czech. But maybe they're closer linguistically than Russian and Ukrainian. I don't know. Perhaps someone can speak to this. Thank you for the interview. Very knowledgeable guest and Lex you always do great work as an interviewer.

GREAT interview, Lex, I sincerely appreciate your attention and being able to LISTEN, not just ask (very smart) questions.

@lexfridman What's your opinion on Interviewing the political scientist: George Friedman (Friedman György)

Does his last name literally translate as "bad"? (I know погано is "bad" in Ukrainian, but плохії means that as well (or "the bad ones" according to Google translate))

Question unrelated to the video: why do reactions often not get through, despite them not violating community guidelines? I have written a lot of reactions below the video and they just don't show up. It's highly frustrating.

Listened to this episode on Apple Podcasts and liked it enough to come here and leave a like!

One question - where is the USA during these turbulent times???

Ty Lex. This is such an incredibly important part our collective history

Terrific exposure for Ukrainian studies and Ukrainian history.

thank you for a great episode and an amazing guest!

High quality, So interesting, thank you

There's a book titled 'Stepan Bandera: The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist: Fascism, Genocide, and Cult' by Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe. Stepan Bandera in Rossolinski-Liebe's book isn't quite the innocent, detached, non-participant that Mr. Plokhy paints in your interview, Lex. Why did the Soviet Union send an assassin to kill Bandera in 1959, 14 years after World War ll was over? The Russians claim that the people buried at Babyn Yar are simply Soviet citizens murdered by the Germans, NOT Jews. According to Rossolinski-Liebe's book there were NO Jews left in Ukraine at the end of World War ll - and that Stepan Bandera's OUN-B played a big part in that unfortunate fact. Professor Plokhy's view certainly isn't the only one regarding Stepan Bandera and the OUN-B.

An excellently displayed comprehensive knowledge of past, present and future of the struggles of that part of the world, which is affecting all of us.

Thank you, Lex, for inviting Serhii Plokhy! I hope international audience outside of Ukraine got insights that were lacking from many "experts" who kept talking about Ukrainian's potential membership in NATO as the main reason of full scale invasion. The reality is much more complex than that!

Thank you, very interesting and educative as always!❤ Just a small remark - 2:28 - he doesn’t speak foreign language (as said in the subtitles), he names different cities - “Kiev, Minsk and Dushanbe - left in different countries”

Lex you have to interview Peter Turchin. I think you two might get a long well and you’d think his perspective on the war is interesting

Loving the history podcasts. Thanks Lex.

Serhii Plokhy is too smart for Lex Fridman.

Thank you, Lex. That was very interesting.

Your questions here were fantastic! It's clear that you research the work of your guests very well before speaking to them. Thanks especially for asking about denazification. I was initially very confused by this term, but Serhii's historical answer and your own experience talking with Ukrainians and Russians helped clear this up.

Hi Lex, this is a great job you are doing. I would like to see you debate the Czechoslovak Legions from 1914-1920 with an expert. BTW I just played the game "Last Train Home" which is about this. And it's an incredible story.

At 1:15:31 he says Komsomol leaders (Soviet youth political organization), not council leaders, 1:15:47 - indistinct word here is Politburo, and at 1:16:07 is mentioned Brezhnev, not Beria (Beria is long gone by that time). 1:16:14 - in foreign language he means Siloviki, which is Russian umbrella term for military, security, and police state organizations.

Wonderful and timely guest! Lex I noticed the essential water on the desk. Since they aren’t listed in your sponsors, I thought I would comment on this product. It was my water of choice for nearly a year before, realizing my health began to deteriorate. I couldn’t get enough of this clean cold, delicious tasting water. but the high alkalinity caused Gerd and dysfunction of my gallbladder. With no other interventions, I ceased drinking the water and all of the symptoms, the burning in my throat. The indigestion, and the pain in my gallbladder went away. I did some research online and learned that, although it sounds counterintuitive, too much alkalinity in the stomach is not good for digestion. So many of these new fad health waters are anything but healthy.

After the first three months of the recruitment drive, there were 80,000 volunteers for the SS Division Galicia, out of which 53,000 were admitted. About 25,000 were deemed fit for service and 13,245 passed the medical examination. They were sent to training, and 1,487 were dropped during the training period, leaving the division with 11,758 personnel.

Great interview.

The answer to the question about nationalism in Ukraine was that he talked about the Russian Empire. It’s clear why he was given the state award of Ukraine.

Thank you for an interesting guest and a great interview. I have wanted to read one of his books for a while. But have never gotten to it.

Nice to know Harvard can still offer some quality.

Despite my criticisms, the host seems to be working on understanding reality and I personally appreciate his efforts.

Important thing about Ukrainian approach towards independence: None of major Ukrainian philosophers/thinkers/political figures (Mazepa, Khmelnitskiy, Taras Shevchenko, Grushevskiy etc) stated the independence as the national goal. They rather looked for more autonomy, but always under guidance of some big brother (Russia, Austria, Poland). The paradox is that based on Mr.Plokhii stated, Bandera was the only one person looking for it. The problem with it is that you can’t choose geography.

What about interviewing Ivan Katchanovski, Canadian-Ukranian professor from University of Ottawa? He has very different views from Serhii Plokhy. Both are ukranians, both are professors and have such different views on the same topic. It would be interesting to listen too.

Thank you for this video. I watched it all the way through and it was. Very informative

Another great interview Lex, my thanks to you both for the time invested in having such an in depth discussion to share with us.

Wow.. Thanks for such an informative podcast!