Also, very interesting that Metyr and Messmer are so similar. Traveled to a strange and distant land on order of their parent, received limited instructions on what to do but triedtheir best at it, then were just sort of stuck there in a holding pattern, praying for further word on what's next or whether they can finally come home, but never getting an answer
Grrm very often quote Faulkner's "the only thing worth writing is the human heart in conflict with itself" and you see that a lot in the writing of merika and some of the other demigods
my heartbreak from the shaman village i think comes from the reflection of miquellas story in marika. and just plays into the mr zaki's cyclic story telling, and also just how far we've all come with the video game and its narrative
Interesting link for the numen people and the Shaman Village- Jarburg in Lands Between is also the reflection of the people trapped inside jars: it's full of flowers which they tend to the same way that Shaman Village is. Also the spell in Shaman Village shows some sort of sorrow and kindness of Marika which we rarely seen- casting it to heal when there is no one to heal shows ultimately her fear of everyone dying, supporting her desire to remove death from her perfect world.
People need to stop conflate the omen with the hornsent. They are not the same thing. There is even dialogue and item descriptions in the DLC which talks about this difference. The hornsent does not have horns in their bodies like the omen, in general. The ones which has horns in their bodies are considered a curse too (the dialogue of hornsent grandma). The Lamenter has horns in his bodies, and he is imprisoned. And I think Metyr communicates with the Greater Will instantly, because the microcosm appears to be like a portal (and Metyr didn't die, she enter a microcosm portal in the end), but in some point Greater Will stopped responding Metyr
It already was like this in the base game, but now with the DLC even more - the Greater Will and everything connected to it feels like a fantasy take on the existential search for meaning. Who or what gave us the intelligence that makes us different from other life forms on earth? What are we supposed to use it for? What should we use it for, if not for the betterment and improvement of the world we live in? But if that is the case, why does even the most well-intentioned and thought-out order lead to suffering in some capacity? Do we really have the power to create an objectively better world? ER seems to say that there isn't an answer, and if there is one, it's so far out of reach that we'll never find it. If the GW is an entity (which I doubt, it seems more like a concept or a choice) and ever "cared," it's on a whole other level of existence that people (and even its direct children like Metyr) can't reach. You just have to accept reality for what it is and keep moving on. Also all the microcosm stuff makes me think that there could be more to the parallel world stuff lore-wise other than just a justification for multiplayer.
12:16 for Jagged Peak Drake duo encounter 36:19 for Bayle the Dread 1:32:54 for Commander Gaius (hog rider) 2:07:45 for winning run 3:24:20 for Fallingstar Beast 4:00:00 for Metyr, Mother of Fingers 4:19:51 for winning run 4:31:23 for Count Ymir, Mother of Fingers 5:20:14 for Messmer the Impaler 5:32:30 for winning run 8:09:27 for Leda & Allies encounter 8:24:06 for Final Boss Sorry if I missed any, oh Saint of Lore
I've been think how mesmer and melina may mirror each other as siblings. I think melina being born without a body may relate to mesmers condition. I think mesmers condition is equivalent to lacking a soul. My tin hat theory is that they are twins, with the apparent difference in age being cause by melina taking a long time to soul without body to a being that can communicate with us.
If one steps back from the "lore" of it all and consider them as actual characters, of course Ranni specifically wanted Godwyn dead. He was the golden child of the homewrecker that destroyed her mother's life.
It’s kind of implied she’s friends w miquella though so it might have just been a way to get rid of the guy who would probably be assigned to be her lord, more than her being salty about him being marikas fave
melina, messmer, malenia and miquella being the children of radagon and marika with their red/gold hair and four butterflies has got to be my favourite fantasy family of all time. (no offence mohg/morgott of godfrey and radahn/ranni/rykard of rennala) (big up godywn)
4:45:00 I like to think that the Greater Will got the message but took too long thinking how to respond, and every day that passes things become more and more awkward, and it thinks, "If only I had sent my reply yesterday or the day before, perhaps with a brief apology-I wouldn't even have to make up an excuse-everything would be forgiven and this awkwardness would be behind me, but now it's too late; they don't want to hear from me; the troubles they petitioned me with are surely resolved, and any command I could give would only demonstrate the uselessness of my authority. And if I really had to, I could send it tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow I'll know what to say. Sending it now is impossible."
Basic theme as I have taken it: traumatized people reproduce and remix the conditions of their trauma. Marika didn’t want to be put *into* a jar. Eventually, she became a jar.
38:38 The comment Bree was referring to of mine was probably me asking you to make a video on the different iterations of things Miyazaki has (re)done.
You're not stupid Quelaag for not remembering certain things others find easy to remember, you just got ADHD brain. (Similar to mine tbh). It do be like that.
2:54:35 Have you ever read The Name of the Rose by Umberto Echo? It’s about this period and also a horror and also a meditation on sin. V cute too. Highly recommend.
Because we are part of the problem. It's a bit of a theme in all Fromsoft games - especially Dark Souls. Killing never fixes things. It's why I choose Ranni's ending as my preferred one. Instead of imposing her will, imposing order, and ruling like Marika did, like Placidusax, she chooses to leave the planet. She chooses to end the cycle by simply taking the power out of the world along with herself. To go back to GRRM's work, Ranni is ACTUALLY breaking the wheel. Marika is simply a Daenerys that doesn't have incestual insanity in her bloodline, just vengeance and cruelty. It doesn't matter what young Dany or young Marika wanted. The power slowly changed them and turned them into monsters. And while we may not have had a great portrayal of that in the show, we know Dany DOES end up like that in the books eventually, or at least that was Georgie's plan.
What I got from the Ymir dialogue, is that Marika and the 2 Fingers are children of Metyr, Mother of fingers, and the offering she gives to her Grandmother, is actually an offering to the Greater will.
I don’t even mind what Marika has done. She’s my favorite character next to Ranni and I dearly wish there was a Marika ending where you can sort of save her, and become her consort to become Elden Lord. I was hoping the DLC would have added that ending. Imo, Marika is the tragic hero and I will continue to bow at every one of her statues through every single playthrough. I will always be on Marika’s side.
@@poweredbythemakyostar8896 trash DLC? You have to be kidding. Imo not only is Elden Ring the greatest and best game ever created but the DLC equally great. 10/10 across the board. Incredible boss fights, awe inspiring world to explore, best level design since Dark Souls, best character design, and as always fantastic combat.
@@mikedelgrande5296 elden ring yes but this dlc is like the omen a disgrace! Marika hid this hell hole for a reason. Miquella sucks! Wish the story was about something else and miquella was a optional boss
@@poweredbythemakyostar8896 Youre literally proving the point of this whole story with this take. The world doesn't care about what you think it should be. It is and will be and you're just a tiny piece of it that has no say in how it plays out other than just putting your head in your hands and pretending it doesn't exist as it is. Lmfao
6:23:47 but Melina's purpose to burn the Erdtree was given by Marika... I think she was ashamed of him due to his Serpentine "curse", by the fact that at this point she had to "mimic" the Grace and apply it onto his eye but it was justa false Grace, not a great start for her Golden Order, even for Marika
I feel like the Shaman Village hit so hard to many people because of the subversion of how we viewed Marika (at least many of us). When I tried to understand Marika's motivations, I would always think of her having grandiose plans from the beginning, of her having a vision of the world that she tried to implement. At the end, it all began from her personal grief over the people that she cared about deeply and from the hatred toward people who caused all the suffering in her life. Before this DLC, we only viewed her as grand, calculative figure that tries to implement her vision no matter the cost. After the DLC, Marika is much more intimate, because the order was born from the grief, and not any sort of divine revelation (at least not only). Like, even the music in Shaman Village is nothing like what we expect from Marika. It is not this epic theme from Radagon's boss fight, but its somber, melancholic counterpart.
Nicely put. My reaction was very similar to Que's but putting it that way I get it. Maybe it was too easy to think she had a grand plan, the people of the Lands Between definitely felt she did so it's not surprising for us to think so too but that subversion is very in line with the rest of the themes presented in ER and that's neat
I still don't think she's a good person, I think she's a flawed character like most well written ones are. She expands upon similar tortures as the hornsent (the entire sewers of the capital, and the evergoals) and I feel is heavily implied that she turns on the hornsent AFTER they ally in war against the giants (the fire golems bearing the giant heads indicates its after the war with them and the giant corpses on the mountaintop are all covered in thorns, an ancient scadutree sorcery.) Marika/radagon had a genuine opportunity to have peace among the lands but decided to continue the cycle of violence. It's why miquella also feels he needs to restart the cycle. So I do feel bad for her, but I'm also mad at her. She had the power to stop the cycle and didnt.
It's interesting seeing all the people saying stuff like "genocide and military invasions to remove a culture you don't agree with is always wrong" and then change their belief once they see what Shaman village has in store. If they were to put themselves in Marika's shoes and saw their entire clan whipped, tortured, and placed into jars for the weird goals of a group of religious extremists anyone would have done the exact same thing.
@@duckheadbob Why would Marika enlist the help of the people who slaughtered and destroyed her clan? Also, the hornsent are not the same thing as Omens.
I was asking my buddy how the npc character war turned out for him and he called Dryleaf Dane “Dryskin Dan” and it’s the funniest thing he’s ever said. He said it in complete earnestness too.
Regarding Metyr, she reminds me of that whale that can't communicate. She sings at the wrong frequency, and no other whale can understand her. She roams the oceans, crying, calling out to her kin, always unheard. My headcanon is that Metyr was either damaged on landing or was born with a genetic abnormality, making her unable to properly commune with the Greater Will. There are likely other lands where her sisters have landed and where the Guidance of Grace is much stronger simply because they CAN commune with the GW. But Metyr, and all her children, as well as Marika, never receive the full guidance. Perhaps that's why one of Metyr's children fell to Frenzy, I can see no other reason why a tool of the GW would instead serve the Flame of Frenzy, and it's very unlike the flame of unmaking to CREATE something. Frenzy repurposes those fallen to despair, it takes over corpses, it does not create. So the Three are likely despairing fingers, who know they are broken and wish for release.
I thought of Marika as this colonizer from another land coming to destroy the indigenous culture. When I learned she was born here, and her whole village was slaughtered, it changed how I felt about her in a huge way. She rose to godhood to destroy the hornsent who did that to her. They created their own end, basically. It's so weird how react differently to stuff. When I saw the tooth whip, and how fuckin evil those guys were, it was the first time I ever felt bad for Marika.
That is also a very big theme. She, no matter the atrocities and the scale of them, she was still a person. That's the point of our history. People don't want to think about or accept how the monsters of our world and history and themselves are fundamentally the same and capable of the same.
When you start to generalize people base their culture or ethnic like "those guys/they", you are no longer on the right path. When you become an oppressor, you are no longer a victim, you don't get the same sympathy anymore.
Talking about the parallels between Messmer and the Chosen Undead, can't leave out the similarity between the statue in Messmer's boss room and the one in Firelink. A mother holding a babby
6:50:40 If this argument is true, then everything the Tarnished has done throughout Elden Ring has been unjustified. The story of the Tarnished is a story of violence. If that violence cannot be justified by some higher cause, then it was immoral from the start and we're no better than Marika or Miquella. It's possible that is what the game is saying, but I doubt it.
that is 100% what the game is saying, it's a central idea of all the soulsborne games. you don't play as a hero saving the world, you're just a weirdo running around killing things as part of a cycle you have no control over. that's why theres so many endings, none of them are the "good ending" where you kill the evil guy and everybody lives happily ever after. trying to break the story down into good guys and bad guys and framing yourself as a righteous justified hero is missing the entire point
@@unluckychloe13 I don't agree. Soulsborne games have a moral valence. While the Hero's power is usually linked to the sources of evil in the game, the Hero has a choice about whether to use that power for good or ill. In Demon Souls, the Slayer of Demons can either put the Old One back to sleep (good) or become a demon (bad). In Dark Souls, the Chosen Undead can either let the fire fade (good) or carry on the Age of Fire despite the cost (bad). In Bloodborne, the Hunter's goal is good but they can fail to reach it. The Hunter is trying to end the Night of the Hunt, which is good. They can either do this temporarily (letting Gehrman kill them) or permanently (by killing the Moon Presence). In Sekiro, the Shura ending is the bad ending and the others are varying degrees of good because they put an end to Ashina's stagnation. Elden Ring only appears different because it has more endings, but each of these endings invite the player to decide what is best for the Lands Between. In each and every case, the Hero of Fromsoftware games is a figure who regenerates the world from a stagnate state. They aren't just another killer; they resolve the world's stagnation so the cycle can continue. In other words, the Hero's violence is justified because it allows the world to move on from the artificial, corrupt state imposed on it by Gwyn, Marika, the Healing Church, etc. Fromsoftware's concept of the Hero is one who restores a natural cycle and, in some cases, transcends it. They do this by destroying the forces arresting the cycle. If you say violence is never justified except in self defense, this very important theme disappears.
@@TheFpsNinja the problem is that "good" and "evil" are concepts that youre bringing to the stories. sekiro shura ending is definitely the one instance where i can agree the game wants you to know it disagrees with your decision, but it's always ultimately your decision, and in every case there are justifications to be made for each ending. the point is that the justifications are yours to make, and just like in reality, dialectic good and evil don't exist, only conflicting justifications for conflicting acts. none of the instances of "good" endings you supplied end with happy music and a popup saying "good job you saved the world!", it's up to you to decide what the right way forward is (which as you pointed out is the entire structure of elden ring's endings) youre right tho that i misworded my take a bit by saying that you have "no control". especially in elden rings endings tho, youre merely replacing a system with another system. the value of that replacement system is up to you, if we spend all our time trying to suss out what the Objectively Good And Pure ending is then we're no better than miquella himself
@@unluckychloe13that’s certainly the case with a few ER endings, like Goldmask’s, where you keep the broken system in place and attempt to repair it. Others though involve a complete dissolution of the system, either through violence (Frenzy) or peaceful means (Ranni). While not “purely morally good,” Ranni’s ending is almost certainly the one the writers saw as most worthy of attention, given how present she is throughout the game compared to the others as well as her accordance with the philosophies fromsoft typically puts forward in their games, via the End of Fire for example. I think a tarnished following her path is at least more justified than those who seek only to continue the cycle or impose their own order. You’re right in saying that none of this is purely “good or evil” but that doesn’t mean that ER has no resolution when it comes to the theme of cycles
@@adagio9230 i don't disagree! overstated the "powerless to change anything" part. i will say i dont think the ranni ending is as cut and dry, i know people love her because shes a pretty doll woman with cool cutscenes but her story does end with her murdering all of her allies lol
I find it very curious that the Wolf Crest Shield states that "The wolf is the beast of the Carian royal covenant" and the Two Fingers assign wolves as the Shadows for chosen Empyrian's (both with Malaketh and Blaaid) and the Baelful Shadows that they send after Ranni. This was got even MORE curious after coming across Ymir a glintstone sorcerer and priest, the Carian style Cathedral of Manus Metyr being built over the ruins housing the Mother of Fingers and all the revelations we learned there. It seems to further illustrate the original common origin in the history of the Sorcerers and those faithful to the Greater Will, from before their histories diverged. It makes sense as the Metyr was a fallen star, which is the object of their intense obsession and life's work. This is purely my conjecture, but I wouldn't be surprised if the sorcerers who initially made contact were the reason why she broke. That they may have viewed her more as a specimen to study, take from, and in Ymir's case, usurp. Like the way the hunters, the healing church, and bergenwyrth scholars did in Bloodborne. They built a dang Cathedral with a hidden entrance on top of her for goodness sake lol Ymir is of course, of the opinion that Metyr was broken from the start, which hey maybe she was. Or maybe, just maybe, she was broken by them (before his time). Either way, I do believe they were broken by the time they factored into guiding Marika to Godhood. Ymir describes the issues with the lands between we see as, "the conceits - the hypocrisy - of the world built upon the Erdtree.", that the very roots are rotten and as we know, Marika appears to have set about the age of the Erdtree and the golden order with the intent that it would be eternal, but things seemed to suddenly and swiftly change at some point, and the age of abundance ended. Marika also declared the intent to search the depths of the Golden Order after seeing her comrades falter, sating, "I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter?" Its possible that in doing so, she may have found out the imperfect nature of the guidance she had been following and that being why things were not working out in the ways she anticipated, eventually leading her to seed the Tarnished and fully try to upend the whole of It, that which she had a hand in creating. Hearing everything about Miquella and St. Trina, about divinity being a cage and leaves you beyond saving, the shattering of the ring makes that much more sense. If Marika had doubts about the order, didn't want to do things the way they were doing them anymore, why didn't she just change the rules and do them differently? Why not change the world, shes a god, who is stopping her? Turns out, once you cross that threshold you are shackled to your divinity and the metaphysical laws forged in that act, to the form that houses that power. After all, we see that even in destroying the ring, Marika was still a god, and was imprisoned for her crime, but remained shackled to the Greater Will all the same. All Marika could do is shatter the ring that codified the rules and hoped her Tarnished, if not her children, could come along and remake the world. She even had Hewg smithing a weapon for the Tarnished to kill a god, as a promise to her. If that doesn't speak clearly to her intention for sending Godfrey away and creating the Tarnished, I don't know what does. Also, the connection between the Carian history in the lands of Shadow and Ranni being the Empyrian that shirked the Two Fingers, found disgust in their intent to control her, "I would not be controlled by that thing", emphasis on 'thing', is something I keep spinning around in my mind. It would track that she would be the one that could have found some unique perspective on the nature of the fingers and their origins, and thus chose to so resolutely reject them. I know that Marika's involvement in the NotBK is definitely controversial as it is conjecture based the on assassins being Numen women and the lore tab that hints at the possible connection to having ties to Marika, but imo the DLC revealed about the MoF and the Two Fingers and just who has been seeing over her for an age just seems to strengthen it. Nothing hard cut of course, but ideas feels plausible based on the pieces lining up. If it is true that she saw the truth of the fingers for what it was and started down the road to possibly try to undo everything (tarnished), and she became aware of Ranni's rejection of being an Empyrean controlled by the fingers, she could have seen that as the opportunity to tip the domino and finally get an out so to speak. I also find it interesting that he states that the findings of the glintstone sorcerer's is that "Long ago , we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are the children of the Greater Will". If the Greater Will was what exploded, a starlike being, that scattershot out across the cosmos, its very possible that there really was no Greater Will to phone home too. The Elden Beast, Metyr, and any other such stars that landed on the lands between may have truly come with no direct intent, but simply as seeds, to send of the last vestiges of a cosmic entity beyond comprehension. That would make them simply lifeforms left to propagate the 'vision' of the greater being that is no longer whole, to try to persist ever onward. Much like a dandelion's seeds on the wind, some will land and take root, but many other's never do. Just so much to contemplate for days and weeks to come.
2:41:33 *Finally*, a sensible chat that doesn't immediately jump to "Marika innocent! Genocide of the Hornsent & Omen is good actually!" upon seeing the Shaman Village. Hot damn has that take been everywhere, it's gross.
DID Marika side with miquella? The night of black knives could have potentially been Marika attempting to thwart Miquella indirectly. There's evidence Miquella and Radagan were close, but maybe Marika wasn't on the same side as them.
So, they musta patched ol Gaius, he started WAY farther for me and off to the left some. Gave me ample time to summon mimic, heal, mount, AND fire two comets before taking evasive action
IMHO I'm glad its not Godwyn. Would have been very disappointing to have him just appear to be Miquella's ride and then die and bye. Godwyn is something you save for a second DLC, with him being the main focus a la Miquella in this one, or even Elden Ring 2.
He’s never ever ever returning. The whole point of maliketh is that when he kills it’s permanent. That’s why Ranni stole the fragment. If you bring him back it trivializes so much of the base games severity
@@possiblymaybe6711 I mean I don't care. This is a fantasy world where fucked up weird impossible things happen constantly. Before Ranni and the Black Knives everyone thought impossible to truly kill a god, but then that god's corpse started growing like a parasitic plant. They literally can make up any excuse or any new outer god or any new magic or any new fucked up-world destroying phenomena to bring him up or at least reanimate his corpse and then have him, in a way, as a boss.
