SHOCKS vs. COILOVERS - Flex your Jeep on a Budget! 

For sure. But most people aren’t going from a coil spring jeep to leaf springs. They keep the coil springs. I’m doing a Yj build in the next year though and keeping it leaf spring for that reason. The right length springs and they flex real good!

For the k10 guys and leaf springs whats up

I hope it helps. Like I said in the video…coil overs are better. But you can do pretty good with a shock and a spring if it’s set up correctly.

Fantastic!

Hey!!!! Thanks for the support! I appreciate it! And it’s crazy how simple it is, and how crazy most people get when you bring it up. It’s like they feel personally attacked and have to reason why they spent that much cash. Obviously With the right tuning I’m sure anyone could get coilovers to give massive flex too. But they just aren’t always necessary. Great to see your numbers in it! I havent had the opportunity to get on a trailer yet. But I’d love to. My build starting next week is going to shake people too. Goi g to be super flexy on a very basic suspension set up. That no one uses on a jk.

So how does one measure for what they need in a shock?

@@madmaxbdw once you have your bump stops correct, you put the axle at full tuck, bump stops touching, then measure from upper to lower shock mount. Then you put the axle at max drop, measure upper and lower shock mounts. Once you have those 2 measurements, you get online and look for shocks that are close to those 2 measurements. Collapsed and extended. You'll never find shocks that are exactly your measurements. Just gotta get as close as you can.

Thanks for the support. It works well for me. I’ll be setting up my CJ build the same way to get lots of flex and keep it affordable.

How do you address the rear shocks?

It helps to explain it. At the end of the day, Coilovers are still going to be better. But you can get VERY close to the same performance with a spring and a shock if it’s set up correctly.

You can’t go wrong either way. They are both good. The important thing is to think about the length and not just get them because they are advertised as working for your lift. Just make sure that when you are sitting on the ground level you have 5 to five inches of stem exposed. That’s your uptravel. Then you won’t be wasting any and you’ll have a ton of down travel and flex.

@M K I spent the last year shopping for shocks for my JKU..did all the research on performance, price, durability, etc. Considering your running just a leveling kit I would say you'll be happy with either the Bilstein or Fox 2.0. Everything I found said the ride is similar, with the Fox being a tad softer. I ended up going with the Fox 2.0 and I'm totally happy with them. My next suspension mod is going to be the Metal Cloak bump stops.

@@justinm.791 thanks for the recommendation! In fact, I performed the install very recently and I’m happy with the results. My front passenger factory shock was shot and glad I swapped these out before tire damage occurred. I happen to have a set of new MetalCloak bump stop I’m not using - - since I decided on only a level kit.

Heck yea! Most people don’t understand that! Good to see someone that does! The jeep industry is HUGE. And lots of high dollar companies pay advertising lost of money to make everyone think they need more than a paired shock and spring. Again, properly set up long coilovers are better. But 99% of “lift kits” aren’t paired properly and if tuned and set up right…they compete with most. Pretty cool.

Yes sir. That isn’t too bad. Usually that isn’t the case. That’s pretty cool that it is set up better from the factory. Awesome to know!

So they are a 3.5 inch spring for a Jku. 20 inches long, just over 7.5 fully compressed.

Great question. Sorry for the slow response. I’m currently in Utah at Easter Jeep Safari. But what I would do is look at the shock choices you are interested in. You know your measurement. So find what the compressed length is of the shocks you are interested in and add the 5 inches of uptravel to that measurement (if that is what you want). Then you’ll know what to get.

@@WarPaintOffroad Lucky lol. It helps a lot thank you. People don't usually go into this much detail

Absolutely! On my website WarPaintJKU.con there is a link to email me!

@@WarPaintOffroad Awesome. I’m emailing now. I appreciate your time and no rush. It’s not going in the shop until the 19th. Talk in a bit.

For sure! I hope the information helped!

So many people don’t think about it. But it’s a big performance gain for not a ton of money. Posts to get from a shock and a spring!

I see what you did there. 😂

I agree completely. That’s why I run the Bilstein 5100. They work VERY well with the rock krawler triple rate spring.

A 6 inch lift if HUGE on a Jku. Check out my lift kit video. Because honestly, a 2.5 lift is the budget way of lifting. When you go to a 3.5 you need to do a lot more supporting modifications like a new front driveshaft, brake lines and other things. It gets costly and much more complicated. 6 inch lifts are common on pickup trucks…but not necessary on Jeeps. I currently running a 40 inch tire on one ton axles and only running a 3.5 lift.

@@WarPaintOffroad thanks much appreciated. What length on bilstein shocks would you recommend for 2.5 lift on running 35s? Cut flares. Thanks

Well it depends. Spring is what sets height. Hoops would be to locate a longer shock or coil over. If you move the spring upper mounting point higher on frame then yes, the whole jeep would sit lower. But then You wouldn’t have enough up-travel with a big tire because it would be closer to the top of the fender at ride height. You don’t need much up travel on a rock crawler, but you definitely want 4-5 inches. If you are getting into a low center of gravity build there is a lot more that goes into it in order for it to perform well than just hoops.

@@WarPaintOffroad sorry my brain and typing didn’t match. I was referring to coil overs when talking about the hoops to sit the Jeep down. One thing I did do with my current shock/spring was to cut and move my shock mounts up on the axles. Wasn’t much but hey, what we do for inches! Looking into ORI but now we get really expensive

@@rocklanderoffroad Gotcha I understand. And yeah if you move the mount up with a coil over you will certainly sit lower. But you also don’t really gain all that much axle droop and it’s a lot of added expense. I also wouldn’t be too quick to go with an ORI. Wow cool, they are extremely hard to get and maintaining them is also another reason. When parts or seals do fail they don’t have a spring. So it completely collapses and you will absolutely wind up in a ditch on the side of the road. It has happened a number of times already. And then being able to get a new seal you might be waiting an awfully long time.

@@WarPaintOffroad this is great stuff! Now you need a video on hydro assist vs full hydro!!

@@rocklanderoffroad funny you say that. I’ll be doing full hydro on a TJ soon and hydro assist on the build starting next week. Woohoo!

Yes and no. A shock body gets longer the longer the shock is. So it’s all relative. This video was purely an example to show people the thought process about when needing to measure and determine shock lengths. There are a lot of variable. And not all shocks are exactly the same. The two shocks I used for the example of this…the way I did it is exactly the way you’d have to do it at the same ride height to keep enough uptravel. You are right about another inch or so…and it can be minimal depending on how much overall droop you have. The more droop you have the less that inch is noticed or even affects things. So it’s all relative.

Yea. It’s actually not as bad as it looks in the video. It bows with flex. And it’s SLIGHTLY bowed when sitting on the ground. But that is because of the Superduty axle being pushed forward. I actually was experimenting with stretch on the front when I made this video. It worked. But I did wind up moving it back about a half inch which straightened out the spring A LOT. Just fine tuning the fresh build when this video was made.

I have 3.5 springs front and rear. The measurement you would take on your jeep on flat ground would be to determine if you even need the extenders. That is a cheap way of doing it if you have 2 inches of wasted shock when you are at full bump. But if you don’t…the. You aren’t wasting enough shock to take advantage of them. So it just depends.

So it’s a 3.5 inch spring (but on one tons). But that is exactly the same frame height as it was with a 4.5 inch spring on the Dana 44 axles.

If they fit well with your springs I would have them rebuilt. If you didn’t like them maybe try something else. But those long travel and 6 pack shocks are all sales pitches from the cloak. Look at the extended length and compressed length and do the math. Their long travel isn’t any longer than a Bilstein or others.

And their 6 pack is a bit misleading. They are VERY expensive. They also only have a high “travel” number because their compressed length is super short. Their extended length isn’t any longer than the others. But you can’t use all that up travel (compressed) anyway with a big tire. So they are a waste in most cases unless you are running a small tire.

@@WarPaintOffroad I like your thinking outside the box. So many people don't understand how important it is to know the length of shocks and how they relate to suspension travel. However, I think you over-simplified your response in regards to 6Pak shocks. I will agree that probably 90% of JK 6Pak owners don't use the full protentional of their shocks. They can have either 13"-15" of total travel but a lot of the travel is not used if you don't run very high-clearance flares and 35s in the stock mounting position. Although they are expensive they have excellent valving for Metalcloak springs which have some of the longest free length in the market. The shocks are rebuildable starting at $75. I would rate the performance equivalent to a nice properly matched and tuned non-adjustable reservoir shock. They are nitrogen charged to 150psi (which I recharge annually) and my set is 3 years old and I'm getting ready to send them in for a PM rebuild. Due to the opposing shafts; the shaft speed is half of a traditional shock so the shocks don't seem to overheat or fade during normal and spirited driving sessions. Just like you pointed out for regular shocks; the mounting position on 6Pak shocks can be altered just as easily. Several of us 6Pak users have either lowered the front upper mount by 2" or raised the front lower mount by 2". So that makes a 15" 6pak shock have the equivalent extended length of 30.25" and this works well with 37s with a collapsed length of 15.25". If someone was to have 40s, they could easily alter both upper and lower mounts for a total of 32.25" of extended length while still having a collapsed length of 17.25" Once you start exceeding 28.5" of extended shock length based on stock JK front mounts most traditional coil springs start getting unseated and that can cause other issues. You also didn't mention the 3" of increased ground clearance when using 6Paks in the rear of a JK. The upper mount is also easily modified if you want to increase the droop even more. I'm still fine tuning my suspension but I'm using 14"-14.5" of travel from my 15" 6Pak shocks and that is without going to a long-arm suspension.

Well….your right about a few things. They are rebuildable….but they aren’t $75. They also aren’t any longer than a Bilstein, fox, or many others at the appropriate length. Where they shine, as I said, is their “travel”. But their travel only is high because of the super small compressed length that many people don’t take full advantage of anyway. Of course you can use the brackets…and sure they gain you ground clearance…but that much ground clearance in the back as you mentioned outs them higher than your diff. And just inside the tire, you don’t need that much added ground clearance. Most people going that far have aftermarket axles and long arms. Rock crawling specifically you want enough up travel, but you want more down travel. And they aren’t any longer. Yes, they are valves nicely for metal cloak springs, but there are others that are calved nicely for metal cloak springs as well. For the money people can do better. Metal cloak does the same thing with their rocksport “long travel”. It’s all an advertising thing. They have the same extended length as other manufacturers…it’s the uptravel that people can take advantage of. Of course you can always go completely custom with fenders or building tube structures to make anything work. But that is t what this video was about. It was just to help people realize that they can get a very high performing rig for decent money without buying a “kit” or being sold on advertising. None of the really high performing Jeeps out there, including mine, run a lift “kit”. It’s always a combination of different parts that work well together from various companies. Bottom line, they are a huge investment for not a ton of benefit over other shocks paired correctly with relocation brackets. You’ll have less money in it with the same performance. That’s speaking from experience.

Awesome! And thanks for the support! But it works really well when you match the springs to the shock…and with a long enough shock it gets some pretty wild flex.

Thanks for the support!

Absolutely! Pros and cons for everything. But a properly tuned coil over is awesome for higher speed stuff.

So mine is a jku, there might be some differences there. In the rear I also ran a relocation bracket. But it was an axle side relocation bracket that raised the bottom 2 inches. It also have it better ground clearance too. That bracket was made by synergy. I would first take a look at the shocks at ride height. See how much stem you have sticking out. If it’s more than 5 inches or so and fully compressed you still have an inch or two of stem sticking out…then you can set it up with a bracket to relocate it a tiny bit. Turn the wasted you travel into usable down travel. I hope that makes sense. Message me on Instagram and we can private message about it and I can help talk you through it if what I said here doesn’t make sense.

I think it’s a great idea! Evo makes some good stuff. But I think depending on the shocks you choose…it’s a lot of cash. You can essentially build your own kit with the spring and shock combo of your choice…and then combine that with control arm of your choice too. I like to go that route. I like buying shocks from a company that offers what I’m looking for. I also like buying springs the same way. There are a lot of companies that make control arms and a few that specialize and only make control arms with lifetime warranties. So it really depends on what you are looking for. But their ability to let you choose the shocks you want is a cool idea. As far as the shock length being parked to the springs correctly, I’d like to think they are. It the recommended length for a spring usually isn’t going to give you the most flex. So it just depends.

@@WarPaintOffroad thanks so much for the reply, i currently have 37s with a full synergy front end, and mopar 2.5” lift. Id like to get more lift, and the best flex possible for 38s do you have an email. Id love to send you some photos and get your opinion. Im wondering if pairing the right shocks and springs with a synergy rear end upgrade might he a possibilty too. vs the complete EVO kit. Also the mopar lift rides really rough. My end goal is flex and offroad use, (keeping street drivability in mind)

@@barelymadeit so I don’t want to post my email here (for spam reasons). But you can go to my website and email me there (Warpaintjku.com). Or you can follow me on Instagram and message me there. I have a bunch of experience especially running the 38’s. I did that for a couple years.

@@WarPaintOffroadexcellent! Thanks so much man! Ill message you on instagram!

@@barelymadeit I’ll look for it.

Hey thanks for the support! New build starting next week!

Hey! So the Rock Crawler spring is meant to have a rake. It will always be a bit higher in the rear than in the front. They do that for the spare hanging off the back and so when you have gear loaded in it they sit level. A half to three quarter spacer in the front will get rid of the rake.

Hope it helps! Thanks for the support! And as always…more coming.

Thanks for the support!

Thanks for that. There are a lot of people that definitely go to their sponsor and leave out the negatives. Which I understand. But I’m all about helping everyone out. I work with a couple companies….but only because they are good and I choose to support them.

Rock crawler makes GREAT springs. And Bilstein shocks ( the 5100) pairs with them really nicely.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. It’s not just the shock. So it’s also the spring length that contributes too. But there is no mis information. Because the more travel a shock has the longer it is both extended and compressed. And at ride height you only have so much room to mount a shock body and also have enough up travel. So you are kind of limited and have to do the math to get creative.

@@WarPaintOffroad Yeah I thought about it after i posted. In your particular case or what you were conveying for a stock vehicle it doesn't make sense to do. In a custom build or willing to do all the mods to make it work is a different story but costs way more as you stated. Ea option has it's place depending on overall goals.

Thanks for the support!

No sag at all. I have never had any sag with Rock Krawler springs. Been running them for years. After they initially break in you’ll have a TINY bit. But thats any spring. I know the really cheap quality springs sag very quickly. But I haven’t had any issues.

So it didn’t come with the Dana 60 front axle. I also didn’t pay 10k for them (rear is a 14bolt) combined with 3 link long arms front and rear. I built them myself. Junkyard axles and did all the work myself. Check out the build I’m starting soon. It’s going to have the same axle but a wild suspension and all done on a budget. You’ll be really surprised.

6 inches isn’t bad. But if you use those brackets and lower the upper mounting location or raise the bottom a bit…you’ll have more usable travel. But 6 isn’t terrible. I have definitely seen more than that.

For sure. That’s a benefit. But most people set them and forget them. They definitely provide a nicer ride too.

So I actually just sold it. It was custom.

I use a hydraulic pump floor jack. I put it on an axle tube and raise the vehicle. Then I use tall jack stands under the frame.

@WarPaintOffroad oh cool hell yeah thanks brother

Not really though. Because all different types of calving and function have pros and cons. So the application of it in this video…it still makes the point.

Yea, you missed the point because you are blinded. Lots of people are. I said it in the video. Length of travel is directly related to length when fully compressed ( clearly not just focused on extended length, you didn’t watch the whole video). You only have so much room at ride height to fit a shock or coil over and still have enough uptravel. So yes, when you put a longer one in you technically have more travel. BUT, when it’s so long fully compressed (and then add 4 inches of up travel) you don’t have that room at ride height from the factory mount. So you have to raise the upper mount to have enough room. When you raise the upper mount enough…you still have the travel like you are saying….but the extended length (even though the shock or coil over is longer, the attachment point is higher. So the droop is damn close or even the same as something that is mounted lower and shorter. With a small With a big tire, you can’t use it all on uptravel from a stock mounting point. So You don’t have to apologize, but I have been doing this for YEARS. And you missed the point because you are blinded by the fact that longer is better. And it is. But only if you can use the same mounting point. I explained it in the video. Watch it again and think about it. I have the same flex that coilovers do, the same extended length, and 4 inches of up travel. With a 12 inch travel shock because of where it’s mounted. Whenever I set a jeep up like this people are always floored. It’s a simple concept if you open your mind to thinking about it without bias.

@@WarPaintOffroad If you take a 14" shock and zip tie it so 4" of shaft is exposed. Place your axle on jackstands and have your vehicle at ride height. Now bolt that to the axle and swing the shock in position on the frame and build a mount to hold the shock right there. The shock now has 4" of up travel and 10" of down travel from ride height. If on your current setup you have 4" of shock shaft exposed at ride height that means your axle will only move down 7". Obviously articulation numbers are a different story.

@@anthonytrujillo7971 right. But again, you miss the point. That 14 inch travel with 4 inches exposed is longer. Than a shorter shock with 4 inches exposed. So going back to what I said in the video, the upper mount has to be moved up. So think about putting that same vehicle now in the air with the axle drooping. It droops let say until that shorter shock is fully maxed out (let’s say 28 inches long). So if you put a longer 14 inch travel shock on it (31 inches long) the axle would technically droop farther (3 inches). But then when you have to raise the upper mount in order to install it and have enough uptravel at ride height (you have to raise it as much as 3 inches)…the axle point of full droop always comes up (3 inches less droop because the upper attachment point is 3 inches higher). So it’s the same or close to the same droop as a shock that is slightly shorter when drooped. That is my point. I’m not saying that it has more travel. I’m saying that it has enough travel to have the same droop from the top of the fender as a longer setup when you raise the upper mounting location. And when you can only use 4-5 inches of uptravel…why put in all that extra work and money for VERY little to no difference depending on how you set you current shock and spring. You are missing the full picture. You are right…but you aren’t thinking through it.

@@WarPaintOffroad Extended and compressed lengths are completely irrelevant. You've put yourself in a Box revolving around the stock mounting locations. The answer is 3" which can net you another 5"-6" for reach during articulation. You're really wrong on this one and I'm kind of embarrassed for you someday you'll see

Agreed.

It’s actually exactly how they work. When you try to put a super long shock in a jeep with a factory axle and factory frame mount, you run into the issue of not having enough up travel because of the long length when it’s compressed. Look them up. They publish compressed length and the extended length. You will see that that is exactly the problem when you have an excessively long shock. I have been working with suspensions for many years. This is exactly how they work and it’s also exactly how I was able to get a lo of droop out of a shock that was better paired to my spring. But lots of people don’t think about it like this. And I guess you don’t either.

@@WarPaintOffroad that part is correct but the part about moving the mounting location is incorrect, you are also able to add and subtract bump stop based on your lift height or shock length, some people prefer to run a longer shock with more bump stop at a lower lift height for better slow speed handling while giving up high speed ride quality.

You misunderstood my video man. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. And moving the mounting location isn’t incorrect at all. People do it ALL the time. I have done it for others before. People put hoops and mounts in all the time to raise the upper. So much so that they relocate their ABS and their TIPM to make more room to do it. Anyone that puts a longer shock on with such limited up travel is creating a jeep that is dangerous to drive on road and will drive like complete garbage. You can always find people building crappy rigs.

@@WarPaintOffroad I’m not saying it’s incorrect or just your math with the shock compression and lengths is off

Yea….it isn’t. I don’t know what shock you are thinking about….but the Fox air shock I mentioned is 35 extended and 21 compressed. The Bilstein is 27.5 extended and 16.5 compressed. So 16.5 add on 5 inches and it’s pretty simple. It’s the exact same length as the fox compressed. It’s simple math really. Again, you misunderstood the video. But that’s okay. I’m glad you said something. Maybe you’ll realize now that the way you used to think about shocks and their length isn’t what it actually is. Enjoy building your jeep!

Yea. I mean you can still get a benefit from them. As I mentioned the ride quality would be better. And if you can MAYBE get another inch or two if you can find the right combo to work with your ride height…but you would absolutely have to relocate the upper (which is common). But it’s a ton of work for not a ton of benefit in most cases.

The other shocking thing that most people don’t think about is when a shock advertises “travel” that is the distance from fully compressed to fully extended. The MC 6 pack shines here. Because it’s a big “travel” number. But, that’s only because it compresses down super far to a really small shock. But with a big tire you can take advantage of all that compression anyway. And the extended length isn’t any longer than other longish shocks. So save your money.

@@WarPaintOffroad Yeah we are on point, I agree with what you are saying in the video and I spent a LOT of time getting the correct parts for my lift, I didn't buy a kit, buying a kit is the real waste of money but if you dont know how to setup a Jeep it is the quick easy brainless way to get your jeep in the air to get bigger tires under it.

True! Those IFS systems don’t flex nearly as well (on street vehicles). They can flex super well on offroad race cars because they are just designed completely differently. But for flex generally, solid axles are where it’s at.

So it’s more about the shocks to the spring. The best thing to do is to have put your spring in…or if it’s a spring you haven’t ran…find someone on the internet that uses that brand spring with a similar weight vehicle. The. When you know your ride height…you can measure between the shock mounting points and get a shock that has a compressed length 5 inches shorter. That would give you 5 up travel.