That Replay Operator needs to be applauded too. He tried telling them to stop but they refused. The dude asked them several times "Are you sure about the decision?" "Oli's is saying stop the match" repeatedly... But they ignored him. Whoever he is deserves some plaudits
The even funnier things is the guy that was switched on is a Dutch guy. English is not his first language. He doesn't even usually speak, he is a computer system engineer I think.
It's like saying "ah I can't save that child from that burning building because I would have to J-walk across this road to get to them" Purely moronic. Entirely excuse.
Just an observation. The original PGMOL story is BS. Right after the goal was scored, the ref said: "Coming back to the offside mate". The VAR guy followed up with "checking the offside"! Event the top banner on their monitor was saying "Checking disallowed goal". They KNEW that the call was offside. And they followed up with "check complete". Meaning they've validated the offside call after determining that the goal was valid. Twilight zone.
It wasn't just the goal rulled offside. All decisions in the game didn't go Liverpools way. So many yellows. Some that weren't even yellows. The yellow card that was turned into a red by VAR. The whole game was shocking.
@@neamnervi apart from the words, sure. I've not heard a single pundit say they actually have a problem with the red, simply that they understand there was no real malice and would've liked to see a yellow for the sake of the game if nothing else. But they all understand exactly why it was red. That could've easily broken his leg, and intent or not you'd be daft to not think that it a) wasn't dangerous, or b) couldn't be fairly considered a red
Like all LFC fans you forget that your goal should not have happened because the free kick that led to it was never a foul. But silly me, what am I talking about, I should know that it is only decisions that go against you that count.
absolutely they turn Jone's yellow to red but do not get rid ofJota's first yellow. This is not mistake It is corruption .The referees did these on purpose
Dan cook CLEARLY said "He was off, He played him off, The goal was offside". They CLEARLY knew that the onfield decision was OFFSIDE. There was NO MISUNDERSTANDING.
That's what I'm saying too. The top banner on their screen was sayin in big bold letters: "CHECKING DISALLOWED GOAL". PGMOL caught with their pants down. Now this is law suit material.
Not only do you hear the ref say it was offside, you can also hear the linesman say he was calling it back for offside. The only way those in the VAR could have missed that is if they were not watching the game.
The AR also clearly communicated "Delaying, delaying" BEFORE the play was over, which is only said when the AR is delaying the offside flag. VAR knew what he was doing, so now we need an audio for all the red cards that were issued and how the VAR influenced the ref decision about them.
The FA were offered the automatic offside tech and turned it down... Im a Spurs fan too, and I would rather Liverpool awarded the draw or we replay the game than have this nonsense we are going through right now
@the.penalty_spot4yeh but he shouldn’t have made that silly 2nd challenge on a yellow. That’s happened every game where players are harshly booked. Both reds for me.
It's funny how the whole ENTIRE WORLD that watched the game saw that it wasn't offside ,everyone saw it except the ppl that are trained n paid to watch the game n make the correct call
"If the game cannot be replayed" Like it's even up for discussion. Only an entitled Liverpool supporter could think along those lines. How about they replay the CL final?
@@mikezappa I am not a Liverpool supporter. I am a football supporter. 8 people made a mistake and did nothing about it to correct it. 4 in the VAR room and 4 on the pitch.
I am a Liverpool supporter and the game will not be replayed and should not be replayed. This is about trying to understand how and why this mistake was made and for it not too happen again to any club. It's about football not an individual club.
Sissoko handled that ball , even Stevie Wonder saw that😂 Spurs are finishing behind Liverpool this season no doubt about it , and they will win nothing as usual
Sky likes to call it a mistake. No it was pure incompetence. Clearly VAR was not watching the game. They should be punished hard not with 1 week break from the games.
Not them, whatever kind of buffoons are the so called “VAR “and “assistant VAR” the boss tops them. Howard Webb is simply not good enough for the position.
I'm so glad the majority of fans are supporting Liverpool with regards to putting the pressure on the PGMOL. We need to continue to scrutinize their process everytime they make a bad mistake until they can consistently come to the best decision using common sense
As a fan of football. This is 9/11 in the football world that happened to Liverpool. I will never forget it for as long as I live. I wholeheartedly think that the game should be replayed to bring justice to both teams and fans around the world. It must be replayed!
There’s clearly something going on with Liverpool, 5 red cards in the first 7 games of the season and nonsense like this on top of it, the credibility of the sport is being called into question here
@@David-qy7sb 5 annual fair play awards in a row under klopp, somehow this season they already have as many red cards as the worst ranked team in the league from last season (the whole of last season!), mo salah seems to have to be a victim of gbh to get a free kick these days too and Liverpool went 12 months without getting a penalty between 2022 and 2023 also. It all started when Howard Webb took over, everyone knows it
In the audio, they are told that "Oli says we must delay". Oli is their boss. Their boss is telling them to bugger the rules, intervene, stop the game, and give the goal. But yet they choose to continue. If things goes sideways because it's against the rules, they can always pin that on their boss.
There is a difference between human error and gross negligence. What happened was gross negligence by every single one of the officials involved, especially given that it was clear to every one of them that the wrong decision had been made before half time. Nothing was said about it until a 😢 statement after the game that clearly sought to sweep the matter under the carpet by blaming it on “human error”. Basically saying “oops, my bad!”
It’s human error in communications that don’t prevent errors from being spotted. The problem isn’t the officials, human error is inevitable, you can say oh but it shouldn’t be this bad but it always will be. Look at airplane disasters throughout aviation history. Pilots with 10s of thousands of hours used to crash due to misunderstandings The phrases they have been taught to use are the problem In this case replace “check complete” with “check summary, Diaz is onside, check complete” Even if all of VAR have had that misunderstanding, the onfield ref instantly sees the misunderstanding or in this case receives the correct information anyway
The fact that the one person in the room that isn’t a referee was the one who noticed the error says it all. Absolute incompetency, it has to change. Can’t stop it because “that’s the law”, they already broke the laws by not giving Liverpool a legitimate goal.
Why can't they say it was a draw - 2-2 as both teams scored 2 goals. It's not ideal as goals change games and momentum but would be a better, fairer outcome than what we have now.
Because every club will come forward with all the examples of incorrect decision. Red cards and Goals and they wouldn't be able to do that. Errors in football happen every week for years, can't replace history but they need to enforce new rules for the future. Personally theres an international break coming up. Put in new rules and overhaul the system cause its clearly not working.
I think it's very weird how everyone is clearly sidestepping the possibility of corruption or match fixing , sounds to be like Darren England knew exactly what he was doing and was ready to face the consequences as at the time he believed he would only get a slap on the wrist , dont think he expected Liverpool to call him on his BS , he clearly speeds the check up and ensures its resumed immediately so when his error/intentional tampering is picked up he cannot stop the game.
No one is talking about the first yellow card for Jota was a massive mistake and he was only 10 yards away if var can intervene when they think it’s a red and not a yellow surely they can say that was not a yellow and rescind it things like this is destroyed what was a fantastic game
Even if the rules state that the game cannot be stopped after the game is restarted, the rules also state that a point should be awarded to the team that score a goal. The moment they realised they've messed up, they can still choose between a relatively minor mess up, and a massive mess up. Unfortunately they've chosen the latter.
There is no rule saying the gane can not be stopped after it has restarted. The rule says it can not be stopped for a review after the review has already been done and the game has restarted. It didn't need to be stopped for reviewing, it only needed to be stopped for counting the goal, as is perfectly legal within the rules of the game. They obviously didn't want that.
We need actions, not apologies. Without compensation, the entire Premier League is compromised. It's a disgrace. We can't go on about being the best league in the world, if we can't even give fair results.
We urgently need a rule similar to the coach’s challenge in the NFL, and none of this VAR gone wrong mess would have happened. Should have done it from the beginning.
Sure, I wouldn’t mind a challenge system in football, but this wouldn’t have prevented the mistake because the VAR officials would clearly still have been clueless as to what had been given on the pitch, so could still very well have given the same result. The fact that they weren’t paying enough attention to the game is disgraceful.
You can go back at the next break in play to review and award a penalty, so going back 30 seconds to correct a blatantly wrong goal decision shouldn’t be a big deal. The fact that there wasn’t a formal communication protocol when reviewing var is reason enough to sack Howard Webb. Verify what’s being reviewed and confirm it. Effective communication lands directly at the feet of Howard Webb and he should be gone
Yes, it is still the amateur hour, with people who should know better screwing up because they are hurrying to do something simple. This kind of thing should have been ironed out during the first two seasons of VAR. Their procedures are simply crap. And this audio confirmed something I already suspected: the VAR officials are easily confused, have poor procedures, it is no wonder they get flummoxed in complicated situations with multiple things to check, and a mistake like forgetting to check if Pickford flattening Virgil in the box is a bookable offense is something that could easily happen again. They have not worked this out, at all. They are years behind the curve and scrambling to catch up.
i think we have to question the on field ref on this also. Once VAR said check complete, he immediately restarted the game within like 2 secs. like come on, cant u ask again for comfirmation or wait for the VAR to say check complete, its a goal/onside?
This arguments all pointless. Any1 with a brain can see the refs fixed this game. The baffling lies they put out just make it worse they say the var didn't know was offside is such an obvious lie it's shocking they think any1 believes that when they say offside themselves. The var made sure ref gave red cards to pool not 1 but 2. They made sure to cancel a perfectly good goal with no reason. The ref kept giving them cards nonstop for nothing. This is obvious fixing
The least and fairest they could do is award Liverpool the point they missed out on from this mistake turning the match into a draw. No one is talking about the other two decisions that were wrong. Joneses red card and Joto`s 1st yellow. both of which were mistakes. If VAR is to really work it has to be lead by competent people who dont bow down to pressure.
This nonsense that it could cost Liverpool. Will they replay the champions league final for the horrendous penalty decision they got? This is ridiculous
@@welldoneboysgoodprocess Our talk is that Liverpool has been subjected to injustice and the referees must be prosecuted. It is not Tottenham fans who have been subjected to injustice, so be silent
You’re the first sane person I’ve seen in all of this that knows it’s a communications issue. They need training like air traffic controllers and pilots do
Darren England missed the linesman flagged for offside. He missed Luis Diaz didn’t celebrate. I think everyone who watched the game saw that. He missed VAR on the screen it said ‘checking for offside’ and when tells he made a mistake and to stop the game he brushes it off and says ‘we can’t do anything ‘ . This isn’t human error. This is something more
Everyone is missing that the person watching the replays and making the offside lines can’t simultaneously be watching the live feed of the goal celebration
@@elvarus They've given the explanation already. If you don't want to believe it then you're free to not do so. But you've at least got to understand that once someone tells him to check for offside, that he isn't watching the game anymore while he's doing it.
@@elvarusbecause that’s not how misunderstandings work He thinks it was called onside, he’s not unsure he’s just misunderstood The issue is they’re trained to use phrases that aren’t misunderstanding proof like in air traffic communications Replace “check complete” with “check summary, Diaz is onside, check complete” That way even if everyone in VAR has looked for the wrong thing like here, the onfield officials can see the misunderstanding or recieve the right call anyway
When the ref said he couldn't stop the game, in order to fix a larger wrong, in any other walk of life he'd be called a petty jobsworth and would be rightly despised.
Yup. Nobody would want to work with him. He undermined his direct supervisor in front of the eyes of the world, by not owning up immediately and letting the person actually in charge do his best to figure it out.
The only one paying attention to the game in the VAR room was the technician telling everyone it was an error, what are these people doing over there if they're not watching the game???
Don't you guys know the difference from other common referee's mistakes? In this case, VAR referee, who is in charge of judgement of offside or onside, confirmed that it was onside but the main on-field referee canceled the goal, reportedly just by communication error, and VAR referee should have intervened and made the on-field referee undo the decision but he failed to intervene as PGMOL stated.What a disgrace! I'm a Man United fan and I think that a re-match has to be held. The match was so important because the winner of this season could've changed. Liverpool had a momentum to be placed on the 1st place of the table and they could've made it. Even if the match had ended draw, Liverpool could've been on the 2nd place. It's a huge disgrace. It should never have happened.
"Just checking the offside" said Darren England, now he claims he thought the onfield decision was onside? Darren England was also the one who said "check complete" and he was the one to make the decision to let the play go on, not letting the ref decide for himself. Thats after taking a long time to realize what happened, just responding with "what?" 10 second after it being called out to him. I dont care if its corruption or incompentency, he shouldnt be anywhere near premier league matches going forward.
Simple solution is var says onside or offside. It is a goal or it isnt a goal. This wouldn't have happened. Clearly var and the assistant var weren't watching this game.
Which one is better? -Following the rules, not stopping the game saying sorry and re-write the rules a it's a precedent. -Taking overneship by stopping the game as it's a precedent.
It will never improve while they police themselves and do not broadcast their adjudications. Look at cricket and rugby….it works to everyone’s satisfaction. The damage has been done, goal disallowed, points lost, questionable red cards not rescinded. This has to be THE lowest point for those on and off the pitch.
Hereafter, every situation leading to a goal, please take time and examine in detail as we can add extra time later, viewers, spectators are fine to wait for a fair decision rather than being disgruntled.
I think there is more respect afforded to the refs in rugby because everyone can hear what is going on, there is transparency in the decisions and the refs explain why they made a call.
The officials in that room were clearly not paying attention, I wonder has the fact that 48 hrs earlier they were on VAR duty in the UAE has anything to do with them being asleep......
The Manger needs a red flag challenge like NFL or a white card the manager could hand the fourth official to challenge the call on the field. One challenge card per game. If you challenge and it doesn’t go your way. No card for the next game. But If it goes your way, you get to keep it for another challenge. Give Liverpool the point!
To be clear at this stage, this is no longer a VAR issue. The on field ref should hold up the game as soon as the review is announced. Once the ref has let it play on the review was worthless.
PGMOL simply need to go and ask the Rugny Union guys how they do it. I watch rugby, I hear the ref give clear instructions to the video referee, the video referee give clear responses, and correct decisions made....
*The problem was the VAR room not giving a verdict after the VAR check complete.* *The VAR check speed was fine. They don't even need to know what the on Field decision was beforehand. It's the verdict they give after the check complete that matters. It's common sense. You would think this is already the protocol.* *There should also be an unforeseen circumstances rule, where they can stop the game.*
Are we seriously having to ask the ref to communicate what the on field decision was, before VAR make a decision? Is that not absolutely obvious already? Shambles.
One week it's a penalty when a player kicks the ball against the hand of an opponent..the next week it's deemed not the same..even though the circumstances are identical.. a ricochet of the leg onto the arm is suddenly a penalty, even though that has always been seen as an unavoidable action due to the sudden redirection of the ball....it's all ridiculous....
"Craig, the lines have come out as onside, so I'm going to recommend you award the goal, the recommendation is you award the goal". - The communication from audio released during the Newcastle game. So it's not the language nor the regular occurrence for them to be communicating how they were on this audio. Why is that? Why is this audio so different from the others that have been released?
As an American, we have had video replay (VAR) for decades in our sports with no problems, but we are much more patient. Its crazy to me how impatient soccer/Premier League fans are. They constantly whistle, moan when there's even a brief stoppage, or they take a little longer to look at something. Soccer is the sport they should take the longest to look at replays because the margin for error is so tight, usually one goal is the difference. We would rather get the correct call, then the wrong one quickly. You guys should want the same.
American Football is constantly stopping and starting anyway, like rugby, so it’s less of an issue . You guys make a 1 hour game last 3 hours sometimes.
@@nickmoore385Every American sport has a replay system though with no issues (football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, etc.). The NFL first used replay from 1986 to 1991 in limited form, then from 1999 to the present in its current form. Its bizarre the Premier league and soccer can't get it right when we've been using it just fine for decades. Soccer fans need to be more patient with decisions or just accept that these massive errors will happen from time to time. You can't have both.
It is pretty simple, you allow VAR to stop the game when they see the ref started the game incorrectly. Get rid of the rule that the decision can’t be rolled back once the game is started again. Add the time back on and start the game correctly.
in the beginning, Darren England said to check possible offside. Still, after checking he said "Check complete that's fine,perfect." when he says checks are complete, that's perfect for what they've been studying for which is possible offside in this situation it means he agrees with an initial statement which it was to check possible offside.
VAR Darren England surely had access in real time to the live match and commentary that we all had? If he was watching the game and listening to the referee and assistants, he would have known that the request was to check the goal that had just been disallowed for offside. Everyone else watching on TV and in the ground knew that this was the reason that the goalscorer Diaz had abruptly cut short his initial goal celebration. Darren England's final word to referee Simon Hooper, as he blows his whistle, raises his right hand in the air to signal for the offside kick to be taken, and then waves that hand vigorously two or three times in a beckoning gesture to tell them to get on with the restart, is "Off". England's "Off" is audible in the video, is included in the written transcript, but has been oddly omitted from the video subtitles by PGMOL, I can only imagine in order not to draw attention to it. And so despite everything, we are expected to believe that it took Darren England a full 15 seconds after he could see that the referee had blown for offside, the offside kick had been taken and that normal playing had resumed, not from the kick-off spot in the centre of the pitch to signal that a goal had been given, but from the offside position to signal that an offside had been given, before he realised his mistake? After immediate questioning by both his Assistant VAR Dan Cook and the Replay Operator, as well as the VAR Hub Ops. Oli, who could all see straightaway that something had gone wrong. 15 seconds after all that?? That is just not credible. Along with anything else, PGMOL's video should be re-released with the caption "VAR: Off" as Mr England's final word to the referee before the restart was actioned. The whole focus by TV post-mortems and others so far on the incident has been on the continued confusion and failure of any advice to or action by the referee to take things back after the restart, whereas VAR Darren England would surely have known all day long that the restart was the point of no return. So will the upshot of all this be that the VAR who steered this atrocious display will be back at post after the usual 1 or 2 weeks holiday and an insincere "sorry, will do better next time" from his bosses? Incredible, just incredible. If EPL are unable to get their act together, then maybe it is time for a European Super League under different management with greater transparency for the sanity of the fans.
"Player was onside. You may award the goal". There you are, fixed. That's the sort of phrasing used in rugby, as an example, and it seems that after spending millions on the technology and apparently giving exhaustive training to all the officials involved, the VAR still don't have a standard way of communicating with the referee. The VAR offical says "check complete, perfect" without saying what the result of the check was, and the ref doesn't even ask what the result was! The ref just says "Off" and blows his whistle. Talk about a screw-up just waiting to happen!
I still don’t understand how VAR thought the on field decision was a goal. It was clear to anyone watching the game that the ‘goal’ was flagged offside. It makes no sense at all.
Something had to change after last seasons big Brighton blunder. Something has to change every few month, same issue happens every few month, we talk about it for two weeks and then it fades and nothing changes.
I wonder if it has something to do with this being a big game.. it would be great if they also reacted to this for other clubs as well. Because it's nothing new.
7 ridiculous decisions went against us - 1. Jones red card, 2. Diaz goal wrongly disallowed, 3. 1st Jota yellow, 4. Robbo yellow, 5. Salah yellow, 6. Cody's assault, resulting in his injury, not punished, and 7. the spurs player gesturing to the ref for a card - now meant to earn an instant yellow - which would have been his 2nd yellow i.e. a red card
But how many times has this happened before? If the communication is so vague, then surely this has happened multiple times. We’ve only just noticed because this is an absolute howler and can’t be debated
You guys don't know anything about the problem and why replay match must be held, so I'll explain it. In this case, it's not about judgement of red card, handball or something like that, which can be controversial, but by referee's call, it's decided. In this VAR case, VAR referee, who was in charge of the judgement of onside or offside, called it was onside, which means a goal, but the goal was disallowed. You know, when it comes to red card or handball, the on-field referee sometimes checks the video himself, which is the on-field check, but when it comes to onside or offside, the on field referee doesn't check it. Why not? Onside or offside is just a technical issue without human judgement involved. Just draw a line and you see. If it's onside, onside. If it's offside, offside. No human judgement involved at all like the goal line system. You guys know about the goal line system, right? It alarms the referee that it's a goal when the ball crosses the goal line. It's the totally same situation as when the goal line system calls that it's a goal but the referee disallows the goal. Can you accept it?
The language used in these checks is very important. They shouldn't be saying yes, no, check complete etc. They have to give an explicit decision that can't be misinterpreted: ONSIDE, OFFSIDE, PENALTY, NO PENALTY, NO FOUL, FOUL, FOUL + YELLOW, FOUL + RED etc.
1) the VAR is clearly not watching the match or not watching it very carefully. 2) the whole process is pointlessly and needlessly rushed. 3) there are either no real protocols around how communications are to occur or they are being totally ignored. Everything is waaaaaaay too casual and none of the language is standardized. 4) there are no redundancies or confirmation checks built into the protocols, or they were being blatantly ignored. How can they not see all of the blatant holes in this system? I can immediately think of a half dozen ways this could be improved from a process/communications stand point and I've never refereed a minute in my life. The whole thing is amateurish and haphazard. It's a minor miracle that it took this long for a screw up of this scale to happen given this is the standard.
