Sparring with a ridiculously curved sabre! 

Yes, they're beautiful both stationary and moving. The very curved ones almost seem to be everywhere at once when you watch because a slight twist of the wrist translate to so much movement of the tip. You can perform a cutover without lifting the point just by turning the knuckles from facing inside to outside and vice versa. If you can get your hands on a real one, they're lovely as art pieces and for martial purposes too.

ikr, the only problem is getting one. at least where i am from. And the technique is quite amazing too, it might look simple but it seems only the movements are economic.

Sabre is in many ways a much simpler style to teach than many others, and you can become competent with it faster than many others I would say as a result. Though mastering it is complex as any other. Where do you live? What is the problem getting one there?

***** I meant as an observer rather than a combatant lol. In that case I find watching feet is helpful since the time of the foot ultimately determines the pace of the engagement.

Mastering something is always really complex, indeed. I live in Brazil. The main issue is the tax concerning imports.

What about them?

"Haven't you seen those warriors from Hammerfell? they've got curved swords... CURVED SWORDS!"

Caleb Cothron oh gods. You...you...

CURVED... SWORDS!

And yet no mention of cavalry sabres. (Katanas aren't really curved and kriegsmesser definitely aren't at all.)

Do bear in mind that the purpose of the video is not to even show an ideal way to use it, but to show an extremely curved sword in the hands of the British style of swordsmanship, as per the description. As they were a fashion trend of the time. Some British officers in India did train in local styles and with local swords, but the shamshir was merely a fashion influence from Egypt (Mamluks) after a short campaign there.

Honestly out of all the fencing videos, this is an absolute pleasure to watch. Very nice covers, great exchanges. Keep up the good work.

The talwars warrior never do sparring without shields so pushing forward is easy for them

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing just beginning to learn about this period. I have been looking into the 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre which seemed to be similarly influenced by "oriental" styles. Was this perhaps part of an overall trend then? As stated I'm only just starting to learn about this period so very interested.

@@tasharch not sure if you're still interested but "scholagladiatora" on RU-vid has some very good videos on the p1796 light cavalry sabre

*Sigh* It's just a play on words from the phrase "Real women have curves". Don't get your panties in a bunch. (I can't believe I have to explain this joke...) Also, FYI, I'm a Western HEMA practitioner.

Straight swords are not better, nor only for easterners.

I personally believe that straight swords are the better shape.

All the autists triggered by that joke lmao

Wise Warrior's Path 2 you clearly have not used any kind of singly edged curved weapon before then. You would bot judge so quickly if you did

@Angel Dust I do not write that the Western system is bad - maybe it is the best. I am just saying that it does not use the properties of a strongly curved saber. This curvature is characteristic of the east - and another fighting technique. The use of a western fighting style for a strongly curved saber is like using Liechtenauer's techniques for a Samurai sword. Yes I am Polish guy, but what does this have to do with it? I am passionate about old fighting techniques and I think this is the most important thing here.

@Angel Dust Sparing is a fight for points. A point may not always be a serious injury in a real fight. It is not good to compare the real fight to sparring. Also, keep in mind that people thought differently then now. Life had a different price and that was reflected in the philosophy of fighting. Here are a few videos that show what I mean - in terms of techniques for the saber curve: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rVtRWPmcHaE.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qfhC_c2Zbh0.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-GvORvTfCDH0.html

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BRgKzmOK0T4.html

@Angel Dust ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZOq2MqpkbVo.html Turn on English subtitles and watch. Lots of interesting information.

Cossack and Polish systems died out decades or even centuries ago, their modern reconstructions do not indicate that it’s the best way to use a curved saber. Historical Hungarian methods might be better, but practitioners are rare. Aside from that, this method is still historical.

That was cool

That was very nice.

Didokell I'm not left handed either!

Yee

explexaily at 0:40 you could have trusted with the back side of the sword on the opponets blade striking the body

Bear in mind I am not trying to use the sword in an optimal way. I am using a sword that was popular with British infantry officers, according to methods taught and practiced by them. Turning into false edge attacks was just not used in the system. It is something I would throw in if it were an 'anything goes' kind of fight. But this is more a look at how the sword worked within he British style of swordsmanship. I will at a later date post videos with a more open style that includes some of these things. Though its best done with a buckler, because you can cover whilst using a great variety of back edge technique where you would otherwise not be covered.

Academy of Historical Fencing ok ^^ that makes sense then

British military saber is not a good system for the more extreme blades. Although I do understand what you are trying to do, a more eastern style (Polish perhaps) is more optimum for that type of curvature.

It is not well suited to extreme curvature no, but they were used, and so it is an important aspect of the history of British sabre on foot. On a wider subject, I have done some research and shamshir work from Manouchehr Khorasani's work, which is very interesting, but these are almost always used with a buckler or other companion weapon. As for Polish sabre, well seeing as there are no surviving treatise on their use until well after the westernisation of swordsmanship in Poland, it doesn't interest me so much. I'd love to think that something shows up on the use of the sabre in Poland further back, but right now it is just too much based in experimental archeology than documented martial arts.

1:43 AN EXCELLENT STRIKE BY NICK, THE SON OF DAVID! YET AGAIN! LOOK AT THAT PARRY-STRIKE!

2:16 to 2:38 Excellent mastery by the son of David, Nicholas.

3:10 Off goes with his hand, Nicholas wins!

The extreme curve does change a number of things. I used a typical British military sabre style, as that is what was taught, and so that is how I used it. Teach the way you fight and fight the way you teach and all that. British military sabre is a core style we teach and this is one type of weapon used in that system. But, if you were to open up the fight to a mix of styles. The extreme curvature is not well suited to straight cuts from wide measure, as it is much easier to parry. Notice I never landed a blow from wide measure except to the leg. If you look to Persian martial arts, you will see a host of back edge techniques where the extreme curve is used to throw thrusts and back edge cuts, but, and here is the big but. That is almost always used in a companion weapon fight, such as shamshir and buckler. It's very hard to use such techniques when you have no buckler to cover, as the sword is not protecting you, and this is used with passing footwork too, not lunge based footwork as is typical of British military sabre. Also, I would use hooking actions, or hook parries, where the curvature is used for back edge parries against guard positions, cuts and thrusts. It can lever an enemies blade really effectively as you moulinet to deliver a cut. So, what would I do differently if I were to simply use it anyway I saw fit to win rather than according to a particular style? Mainly it would be the introduction of back edge, and back edge hook parries, and I would use more passing footwork to close, where an extreme curved blades delivers really nice draw cuts.

you can curve around the opponents defense and strike where a straight blade would be unable to

its also certainly better for cutting the clothing that infantry would be wearing at the time. this saber seems very similar to the polish sabers that we used long before the Napoleonic wars if you wanted to look into how you would fight with it as opposed to a straight blade.

@@barnyhitman He did not use curved possibilities and false blade

Not in sparring no. I have handled a number of originals though. Despite the characteristic shape, they handle like a lot of common curved sabres from other nations. They are often heavier than equivalent length British sabres for example. You can sometimes find kilij blades on British sabre hilts.

To give advice I would really need to see the root cause of the doubles. Shoot a video and I will take a look. You can make it unlisted if you don't want to put it out to the public and send us a direct link. Usually the most common things that lead to doubles with beginners are a lack of displacement. That is, using the forte/strong against weak/foible when countering, and an emphasis psychologically on landing a hit rather that surviving a fight. Part of the problem is that some of the easiest blows to land are also the most dangerous, so people make that attack to make the hit, but take one in return. Technique is important here, but the psychology behind it is in many ways more important. You can see in military sabre the way that there is a massive emphasis in defending first in every situation, and slipping and defending against any threat. Of course this method doesn't quite work the same with styles that use a lot of single time defence actions, like Italian rapier, and German longsword styles.

Ok, cheers for the eagerness to help. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do any HEMA with my mate until this weekend, but I shall be sure to film some of our sparring when we do.

chad hill avoiding double hits is something a problem all begginers face sometimes it is even unevidble but i guess i think not full speed sparring but kind of flow slow medium speed sparring would help for coordination building like dussack training which is more about form and less about speed and power build coordination of your seings and parries and gradually add speed/power as you go.

Great, good luck with it, and let me know when you have anything you'd like me to take a look at.

Fencing requires a little bit of cooperation between adversaries. That is, both of them need to not want to die. There are ways to deal with suicidal opponents or completely crazy ones, but, in general, a lot of the techniques assume that your opponent has to parry them (or at least move out of measure). If you throw a Vier Versetzen to cover the quickest line of his attack so he can't time-hit you, but he still decides to not parry it and just throw a random cut instead, which results in both of you getting hit, this isn't necessarily a flaw in the theoretical technique, but because your opponent didn't want to preserve his own life at all costs.

You can and very well, if you use a shield, buckler or dagger to close in...

A lot of people expect that because they have read to inaccurate books. Straight is not better than curved on foot. They work a little differently. Both were extensively used mounted and on foot. Curved vs straight on horseback isn't as simple as one being better than the other either. The curved blade gets a natural draw to its cuts, but the straight is better at many thrusting techniques, as well as quickly getting the point to a target in straight cuts. There was never really an answer to which was best, which is why the argument went on for much of the 18th century, and all of the 19th. They both have strengths. No, the sword in this video is not a cavalry sword. It is in fact a replica of an infantry (rifle) officers sword. Sabres were extensively used on foot. Cavalry examples tend to be longer and heavier, but there is some cross over at the upper end of the infantry and lower end of the cavalry specs.

Academy of Historical Fencing I see....

The longer sword almost always has the advantage when there are no companion weapons, and both start drawn and fight in open space.

Curved swords are always meant to cut from close and therefore is accompanied by shields for blocking enemies' strike. The fighting styles with curved swords or tulwar/samshirs is markedly different than style with straight swords. Fact is the weather prevalent in East or orient as you may call it, prevented from using the fighters from using heavy armours like europeans did. Therefore, cuts were easy to made and proper cuts by curved blade tended to cause more damage than thrusts or cuts by straight swords. But, fact is even though these curved blades are today believed to be prevalent style of swords in east like Persia or Indian subcontinent, there are many kind of straight swords like Qujar or Khanda that were also in use in those parts.

@@Jpab_in All of this is true, thanks for the comment.

The basket hilt in this case is based on an English example of the early 17th century, though it is functionally the same as a Scots broadsword. The only differences between the two are purely aesthetic. As for the extremely curved sabre, this wasn't the norm, it was more a fashion trend. Frankly it's not well suited to the European styles of swordsmanship that work at wide distance and use the lunge as the primary attacking footwork. It's more suited to a fighter that fights closer.

The basket is an English type from the early 17thc, made by Darkwood Armoury. It is much the same as the Scots basket hilts of the 18thc. The straight definitely had the advantage here, but that is because the sabre used is such an extreme example of curve, and not well suited to the style we use (but is used that way deliberately, to see how it would work, seeing as some officers did purchase sabres like this). With more typical levels of curve, there is little difference between them.

Curved blades are slightly easier to cut with as they have a natural draw effect, and assist with edge alignment. But this one is a really extreme variant and was simply a fashion trend after the army's time in Egypt, and copying the mamluk shamshir swords. Such wildly curved swords never gained widespread popularity. Ultimately most nations settled on a modest curve of around 0.5-2cm, much like many of the early sabres a thousand years before had been.

The double headed eagle, see the Wikipedia entry about it. Our main motivation was from its use by the Holy Roman Empire, as when we started the AHF our main styles were longsword and rapier, from Germany and Northern Italy, which was all part of the Holy Roman Empire at the time of the treatise. Those two styles remain some of our standard styles today, even though we also now do a lot of British military sabre. . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle

Late reply but feel free to check out razmafzar to learn about how we do it in Iran :) the channel lacks editing to say the least but for now it's pretty much the only source.

i think the main difference between a shamshir and a polish saber is a hilt - therefore it's probably a polish saber

Well it depends on how you want to use it. The reach sucks and thrusting is incredibly difficult except for some close range techniques. This amount of curve only really suits very close in fighting.

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing fair, its perfect for false edge strikes around a parry though

The close quarter styles used throughout the middle east are commonly used with companion weapons like a buckler of dagger. It's very difficult to close to the close quarters without a companion weapon. Also, the aim of this video is not to represent middle eastern fighting, but British military sabre, at a time when some officers were purchasing extremely curved blades.

Academy of Historical Fencing Was this merely a fashion? Or is there a point to such a curved blade without getting any closer? I suppose there is sacrifice in reach to offer more of a curve.

For the British army, there is no doubt that this extreme a curve was entirely about fashion. They provide wicked slashes at close range and also allow some really interested back edge work, neither of which were the methods employed by the British.

Maneuverability is a lot more complex than that. The Shashka are simple in the hilt, which means less counter balance, and that can make a sword signifcantly slower in maneuverability. They are often at least as heavy or more so than many storrup and three bar sabres despite their simple hilt.

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing , I didn't mean a shashka . I meant 2 types of sabers of the Zaporozhye Cossacks: one balancedly curved and of the uniform thickness, the other narrowed at the end (like the Turks or Tatars - I don’t know how to compare exactly). The second option is perfect for duels. Also note that these sabers are lightweight and shorter in length for an accurate description.

The rapier, it excels are one on one unarmoured duel style fights.

Academy of Historical Fencing okay, I thought it was saber because saber is designed for defense and attack from many angles and it is also designed to disarm the opponent. I guess the speed, forward thrust and defend at the same time attack favors the rapier over the saber. Thanks for the answer. I'm really getting interested about sword fighting because it some what has a similarities to the fighting discipline that I do which is boxing.

The rapier has the advantage there simple because of reach, and the incredible speed of disengage to strike at safe distances. It can also used its huge reach to land cuts well out of the sabres reach. Without the same power of course, but still significant. The sabre is very agile with great dexterity, but the rapier will often strike safely and from a range before the sabre can use much of its technique. The sabre is a much more versatile weapon of course. But the rapier is incredible for one on one unarmoured combat.

Academy of Historical Fencing okay thanks.

Gold Piece sabre was used mostly by horsemen,cavalry as a unit, so slashing sabre has advantage in that kind of warfare.

"Shamshir inspired" as per description. Most of the British made ones curved along the whole length of the blade.

originaly shamshirs are not like that and another thing about shamshir blade is that only very late version of shamshirs (late Qajar period) was made very curved because of no armor use in that time earlier version was made with a lot less curve

Yep, the British examples are a bastardisation, just inspired by their experience of the Mameluks circa 1800. Some did more closely follow a more common shamshir blade shape, but the trend was for outlandish curve, merely for fashion.

I always found it amazing how some people learn to write, but never to read :D

I prefer a lighter and lesser hilt that a full basket, as the sword is so much more agile. and the wrist unrestricted. I use the full spectrum as all were used, but were I to choose the perfect guard it would be a bowl hilt, something similar in design to the 1885 cavalry troopers hilt, just a bit lighter.

I suspected a full basket would be a bit restrictive. I would love to see you spar with something like a Turkish pala Kilij or Turcael. They are such devastating slashing weapons, but probably not ideal for a duel.

Sparring with a Turcael below. They can be a bit of a monster weight wise. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KhswBcWaxH8.html

This is precisely the way it was used, in the context of what we are practicing.

Salem Ben Yedder - totally agree with you. Starting with stance to balance and movement sabre is a lot more deadly than what we see here. Regards.

That's light saber - shamshir.

We tried this with a synthetic sabre. Removed the knucklebow to make a recurve shaped blade, like the sica, and the scythe sword (a rare piece). Not sure I still have the footage, but it was really fun. Will do it again sometime. It doesn't handle well, but some of the cuts are a bitch to parry.

Largely that the extremely curved sabre blades are not suited to the British military system of swordsmanship. The curvature makes thrusting with lunges very difficult, and many of the cuts from it are very easily parried. That isn't to say this much curv is bad. It can be very useful for some close range cutting, and point work, especially when combined with a buckler so that you can cover and strike separately.

No real surprises, then, but makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

One thing I would add though, is that since I first ordered this custom sword, I have handled quite a number of original British shamshir inspired sabres, and now own two originals myself. They are typically shorter and also a good bit lighter than the 1796 LC inspired blades. Typical values for infantry types are blade length around 76cm, and weight 600-700 grams. But the one I am using here is 81cm blade nad 870 grams. A small number of cavalry officers had swords made with shamshir inspired blades, and that is more what mine represents. Which isn't to say it wouldn't have been used on foot of course, cavalryman often ended up fighting on foot for a range of reasons. I'd like to get something more of the infantry spec made, but I doubt any sword makers today could make something so ;light and agile and keep it strong enough for regular sparring. I might get black fencer to have a crack at it though

Opponent was Gareth, one of my students. And in some regards with this extreme a curve, yes it does reduce reach, but it's more that it makes some long range strikes impractical. LIke direct cuts with lunge to the head for examples, they are stupidly easy to parry because the blade curves away form the angle of the cut.

Yes but not a ridiculously curved one. That is about 4.5cm, which is a fair bit and would be considered well curved. But the one this video is about has 10cm of curve, which is massive.

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing I know right? Then you have those Persian ones that Curve in almost an entire circle! 🤣. But what type was the guy back there using?

I had it custom made by the Polish swordsmith Wojciech Szanek. It is an Infantry officer's sabre, based on one of the shamshir inspired ones used by some British officers, circa 1800.

Thank you for the answer! I will definitely look into getting one for myself so I can start hema sparring with sabres.

Indeed. An example of what happens when you post a video late at night after a sparring session :-)

Do you mean they _vary_ immensely?

It was made in Poland, but is a reproduction of a British military sabre circa 1800-1820.

please elaborate

The sabre is by Wojciech Szanek in Poland, and the basket hilt broadsword by Darkwood Armoury in the USA.

Great. Thanks.

Kappa Which is understandable as that's what it's based on

Kara bela means black trouble in Turkish(i guess they were named that because of their black hilt), what does it mean in Polish?

Ali Kuzyaka Hi. I didn't know that. This is most interesting fact. There are some myths here in Poland about the provenience of the name "Karabela". There are some theories that this is old indopersian word and other ideas like this. I think that black trouble cold be very close because Karabela is very close to Turkish sabres and back in the days our nations have some "close relations" ;) If I may ask, is there any Turkish word for "Karacena"? This sounds very close (this is a type of armour, composed of small dragon-like scales.

histfenc.com/productcart/ap-fencing-jacket-350n

Academy of Historical Fencing tks a lot

I know little about fencing historical, or otherwise but I do own a German Saber of that general type and I was impressed with the endurance, and how fluid the moves were with a weapon that seems fairly cumbersome at least to my unpracticed hand, bayonet training in the marines forty years ago was much easier, and more instinctive for me, but I certainly enjoyed the demonstration.

That was the inspiration for these particularly british blades yes, after their experiences in Egypt, though they took the curvatures to particular extremes.

Yet if you look at the measures of a great many original Polish sabres, they usually have 4-7cm of curvature. 10cm is quite unusual. A great source on info for this is this book, which has a lot of indepth data on a large range of Polish sabres - www.amazon.co.uk/Szable-swiata-Wojciech-Zablocki/dp/8311120331/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1531819547&sr=8-3&keywords=Wojciech+Zablocki

Not really. Cavalry swords have been straight and curved throughout history. Even most cavalry swords from most eras aren't this curved. Additionally, no it is not a cavalry sabre. This was based on the regimental pattern for a rifle (infantry) officer.

I don't. Being a cavalry weapon few use them. But Blackfencer would make you a synthetic no problem, as Swordsmithy would make you a steel.

Thanks for answering. See, this is something that I don't understand. Given both the multiple records of duels with cavalry sabres (on foot) and the reach advantage (say, for thrusting on the forearm or wrist), I just don't see why nobody trains them but rather trains infantry sabres I am looking for a sabre with a blade of 88-90 cm and I think that this only applies to cavalry sabres... :-(

A few reasons really. Firstly because to a cavalryman, the most important aspect of swordsmanship if on horseback, and few can do that today. Whereas training an infantry style, we can practice a complete system. Second, cavalry sabre was used the same on foot as infantry sabre was, so it is just a matter of which sword you have in hand, and that brings us to the third point - cavalry sabres are mostly much heavier than infantry ones, and hit a lot harder, meaning they can be quite dangerous to train with. That being said, I have a British light cavalry type on order with blackfencer, and another of our members has ordered something resembling the French heavy cavalry sword too.

This is not true. Sabres were widely used on foot. This training sword was based on a Rifle (infantry) officers sword of the Napoleonic period. See the description of the video. Yes it is awkward for the style of swordsmanship typical Europe, though not inherently awkward for infantry combat. Hihly curved sabres were used on foot as well as horseback.

Sure I will of course take a look and give what help I can. The name is great. Send me videos when you have them.

See the description, it is a blade inspired by the shamshir, fitted on a British sabre hilt. Something which there was a small following for after the campaign in Egypt.

Fredbear Fazbear huh my lost account still here?