On this episode of Speed Secrets, Richard Holdener tests how much a cam swap is worth on a 351 Cleveland. For more tech stories please visit, www.cpgnation.com/
I’m putting my Cleveland back together for my 86 mustang. Motor was in a 81 Capri and best time in the quarter mile was 9.20 and 6.0’s in the 1/8 on a 175 shot of NOS. Stock 0.030 over block with Speed Pro(TRW) flat top forged pistons, factory crack, factory rods-polished beams, and balanced rotating assembly. 4-V closed chamber heads with Milodone sever duty 2.19 int/exh 1.73 valves. The cam is a mechanical roller.711int/exh .714 262/272 @0.050 on a 110 loc. The cam is based off of a BBC. I’m using the Chris Parker Fennel Web intake with the tunges that bolt inside of the intake runners of the cylinder head. Performance Automatic C-4 transmission with a Hughs 4000 stall converter. 8.8 with 4:30 gears in the Capri. The 86 mustang is about 300lbs lighter, all Team Z suspension front to rear. This car is going to hurt some more feelings when I get it done. My Ls killer on a budget!
We were in developing the 351 when it first came out and putting Boss 302 heads on them with Titanium valves roller rockers along with experimental cams intakes and carbs. This is what you can do when you put a big block head on a small block engine. Even built a 400 with the same stuff and it worked with intake spacers.
Im here once again. You have helped me with my lc9 in my truck. My TT lq9 for my car. Now a 73 351c for my dads mach one. I made the ford chevy swap after #8. 1st time im back.
So was this a test with the XE-284 or XE-274? Its posts on the screen 284 but he says 274. I know Richard really like the 274 so I'm leaning towards that.
I am looking at installing this to upgrade a Detomaso Pantera based car. The car has a tube chassis and fiberglass body ~2200lbs wet. I see the 240/246 kit on Comp Cams website; What other components would I need to get power output similar to this test? What would be a good carb size to run?
should i use my permatex assembly lube on my comp cams retrofit lobes between the howard roller retrofit link bar lifters or just engine oil with zinq in? also assembly lube on the cam bearings?
If there was a stock head stock block shoot out the 351 Cleveland would be crowned the winner of all engines big or small especially if the tests ran the engines clear up to 7500 RPM. Sorry Chevy guy's not till the LS motor was invented could you touch a Cleveland.and remember no aftermarket aluminum heads are allowed in the shootout only stock heads
Dave's CB Radio Repair : True. Like Aussie 302 Cleveland 2v heads, non 4v heads out number 2v heads 5 to 1. Hence "Everyone" wants to use the more common sled fulcrum unadjustable 2v heads and port and enlarge to 4V heads. Ford made some of the 4v heads rocker gear adjustable and all 4Vs have the intake flow better by 60 cfm. The closed or open chamber 4vs allow any compression ratio and the exhaust flow is not increased so that when headers are used, the engine doesnt loose torque. When a bigger cam is used, the exhaust ports can be alloy plate and JB Weld high ported Gilden style. Asside from valve seat and hairline cracks, Richard has it right. The heads flow enough for 550 hp with ease. Even the 2vs can make 500 hp...they flow 250 cfm with just a few mods. A 400 2v head with a turbo will keep the compression down. 88 to 100 cc open chamber 351 M heads can clear 4V valves.
I'm amazed at how many people don't know the Cleveland was only made for 4 years and continue to call the Michigan- aka modified a Cleveland. There not the same. When the 351 Cleveland was discontinued after the 1974 model year, Ford needed another engine in that size range, since production of the 351 Windsor was not sufficient. Ford took the 400 engine's tall-deck block and installed the 351 Windsor crankshaft resulting in a shorter 3.5 in (89 mm) stroke crankshaft to produce a 351 cubic inch (5.8 L) engine. The 351 Windsor and 400 Michigan shared the same main journal size and cylinder bore spacing, so the crankshafts were interchangeable. This crankshaft was not the same as a 351C, in that it used the larger 3.0 in (76 mm) main bearing journals of the 400 V8. To compensate for the shorter stroke the pistons for the 351M have a taller compression height, so that it could use the same connecting rods as the 400. The result of the 351M using the longer 400 connecting rod was a higher connecting rod-to-stroke ratio of 1.88:1 than the 351C and 400's of 1.65:1. Other than pistons and crankshaft the 351M shared all of its major components with the 400, and it also used the large 385 Series style bellhousing.
Thank you more please .I have 2 355 Cleveland’s and one 408 all with at lest 10.5 compression. One should I spend the money making the 4v close chambers or save and buy the trick flow heads
that depends on how fast you want to go A un ported 351 4v closed chamber head will get you an 111 second car with headers a good cam, a single plane intake manifold and 12.5 piston. The new TFS heads have improved combustion chambers and raised exhaust ports. but the ports are only the 2v
Considering that SBF's started coming with roller cams from the factory in 1985, I wouldn't build anything other than a pre-1985 stock rebuild with a flat tappet cam. If it doesn't have a knock sensor, I'd do a solid roller every time.
Pretty sure knock sensor can be disabled? I guess you're talking efi, some of us run carbs on these Clevelands. I admit, mine has electronic distributor.
Hey Richard, why not order that cheap top end kit from Ebay and test it? Are they junk or OK for the money? and Then really put some cam in it. But try a 11: Compression max. Just a suggestion, probably won't happen
John Parrish : The 4v 57 cc closed chamber head flows 275 cfm at 550 thou lift. At the standard pressure drop. The 57 cc 2V 302C head flows 205 cfm without modifications. Open chamber 75 cc 2v and 4v heads flow better if the long turn radius is ported. The 4V valves on the 2v require relieving and port work. Stan Weiss has published the data on the Boss 302 R code based and Cleveland, Modified and Yates A3 heads. CHI has similar data on the old iron 2V and 4V heads it recast in aluminum as 3V's. Youll find better info in those two websites.
Hello Richard question on your 351c 4v video your cam test xe284h by comp cams recommends a 2800+ stall converter I have a stock FMX 3 speed auto trans would I need to change my stock converter stall speed believed to be 1900 ?? Thanks.
I’ve got a stockish 351 Cleveland from a 71 Pantera, just put it in a 67 Ranchero, just trying to get it finished up. It had long tubes on it and some Accel wires, everything else bone stock (oh, well other than some Holley valve covers too for appearance purposes lol). My dad actually happened to have one of them aluminum Holley dominator intakes laying around so we got some new gaskets and put it on there with a 4 barrel Holley street avenger carb, got some fresh plugs put in it as well and I bet it’s gonna love it! We did throw some Flowmaster super 40s under it as well
I've got a NOS 72 351 CJ cam I want to install in my 70 351C Mach 1. It has the same specs as the Boss 351 cam only it's a hydraulic cam. It has been suggested to advance the cam 4-6 degrees. Anyone ever run this combination? My 70 351 Cleveland has quench chamber heads. 72 CJ 351 Cleveland had open chamber heads. What kind of power gains should I expect?
Love it. Its a great thing to see 451 hp from a Hydraulic cam! The old 1988 Comp Cam grinds were tested in Street Machines Power Games series in 1988. Your new grinds are even better than the 1988 CC 268. Little known is that the 310 degree K code 289 cam remastered to suit the 351 C was supplied to Australian 1970 Falcon GT HO and made 350 hp net at 5400 rpm. That was a year before the Boss 351. Back then Graene Nicholls from Lynx Industries Australia found sone serious power from Comp Cams American cam grinds.
@@lukewarm7744 Mick Webb's best flywheel SAE net HP for a Phase III is 350 HP, Hot 302and 351s, 1988, Tim Bitten, Street Machine. 340 -350 HP for the Phase II. The Phase IV dynoed at 380-390 according to Bill at SVE, Australian Muscle Car, 2005. The Phase III was not a 380 HP gross or net engine on an engine dyno. Have a great day.. 🥝✔️
@@lukewarm7744 I'll leave the pejoratives to you. The facts are undisputed, a few off the hand comments from someone who doesn't back up there sources, go ahead and do your worst. The Phase II cam is a K code 289 knock off with Cleveland firing order . It was a nominal 310 degree at lash cam with about 228 degrees at 50 thou, effectively wilder than the 1971 GTHO, and the Phase II had no rev limiter, a 145 mph top speed and a faster 1/4 mile than the Phase III. The Phase III cam was downgraded to 300 degrees at lash with a split intake and exhaust profile, and much more 50 thou intensity and marginally more peak lift. The cam on the Phase IV was exactly the same. The chamber was gas flowed for the Phase IV, a special Boss 351 head gasket used, H-M Tri- Y exhaust headers basically the same, and I really enjoy your input and I know you will still have a great day. I always reveal my sources. 🥝✔️
@@lukewarm7744 No cut and pasting. All the articles that say Phase III 380 HP are wrong. The factory quoted 300 HP SAE Gross on all M code GT 351C's.The facts were 260 kw and 350 HP net from Mick Webb and Phase IV, 380 HP Bill from SVE, with top speeds of 153 mph with the Rev limiter from John Wright in 1983, and 170 mph unlimited by three sources for the Phase IV. Richard Holdener's dyno figures here are gross readings. Measured. The Phase II had the hottest cam of the lot, but there is an average duration difference between at lash and 50 thou lift duration. The 71 and 72 Phase III and IVs had a toned down cam, and much more focus on block decking and chamber and had less compression. The extra power came from the bigger 780 CFM Boss 302 spec carb and ignition changes. All of this info isn't gene spliced...it's actual.
@@lukewarm7744 Your full of slap shot mythology, not based on facts. I stand on facts each day. More power came by better chamber filling, with a reduced compression ratio, and the Cleveland 4V responds best to the right cam duration, not more. The three people who experienced 170 mph in the Phase IV development engined cars are still alive. Calling them liars now? Mick was himself involved with the Bib Stillwell Group in his early years, 18 years old, and his engines won races. The amount of engineering that went into the GTHO from Ford is beyond your comprehension. "ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ug1vxO0bXGk.html"
I would like to see a 2V-vs-4V comparison. Stock, cam, carb and/or efi swap, supercharger and/or turbo add on. This will show the more streetable high torque 2V and the high revving high horsepower 4V. This should be a like for like swap. Alright Richard, this is your next 30min video assignment. Thanks
@@rossgirdeen3247 The 4V is a high volume/low velocity head under about 3500rpm. But, if you pressurize it with a turbo/supercharger, the volumetric efficiency goes up for the velocity. The 2V head is usually the best of both worlds, especially in the 1500rpm to 6500rpm range. It is lower in volume, but higher velocity up to about 4k rpm naturally aspirated. There are after market 3V which is a hybrid of the two. It supposedly takes the high velocity of the 2V at lower rpms and maintain the higher rpm of the 4V. For reference, the 2V intake is 2.05" & 1.65" exhaust. The earlier 4V intake was 2.23" then it went to 2.19", the exhaust was 1.72". Both heads are canted like the Big Block Chevy. The 4V had open and closed chambers in the US. The 2V was open chambers in the US, with the 2V having closed chambers in AUS. The 4V intake runners are about the size of an average adult males closed fist which hurt it's ability to flow at lower rpms naturally aspirated. The 2V was about 2/3 the size of the 4V intakes which helped on streetable rpm levels (that 2k to 6.5k rpms). The 4V usually came alive around 3500 to 8000 if the oiling issues was addressed for the crank & heads and was balanced for those levels of higher rpm. Though I can't remember the race classes, but those 4V heads was not allowed to race due to unfair (thought the Ford guys was cheating in those classes). Hope this helps.
@Cam montreuil engines Open chamber Cleveland 4V heads? Yes, I also have a bone stock pair along with the factory intake and carb. Been meaning to look into which exhaust manifolds I'll need.
Working on a 351 swap with this cam set up. You don't mention the problem with the exhaust valve/spring installed height is about 0.160" shorter than the intake, which requires cutting down the spring pockets to match. There's a possibility when doing so, of cutting into the water jackets.
I was wondering about more lift than the stock head could accomodate, nice little detail there. It's the little details like that where you can end up with a pile of $$ sitting in the corner of the garage.
70 351C 4V, used the XE284H with Ferrea 1 piece valves, Conical springs, guide plates, 1.8 roller rockers that yielded .610/.614 lift without cutting the pockets. Alex part's for springs, shims, seals.
I droped a valve in my Cleveland 4V at the track about 10 years ago, My buddy had a set of Austrailen 2V heads he wanted to try on my engine! With the same cam an ignition My car run 3 tenths slower. I am not saying a 2 V don't work but it sure didn't work on my engine!
@Cam montreuil engines Like you say there are lots of legend's out there about Cleveland's but most come from guys that haven't even had or tried both! I have seen small port Cleveland's go fast but but I know of a Cleveland 4v that was home ported, Went low 9. seconds in a a 2800 pound car! i hav not seen any small port engines run like that!
Although other C heads can have the Boss valve train added these are indeed 4V closed chamber as noted by looking at the number 4 and single dot on the corner of the head picture.
Boss 351 with 2 bolt mains??? Doesn’t sound right to me but I’m no expert. My boss 351 engine has four bolt main caps. Sounds like a standard Cleveland out of an LTD not a boss.
Who thinks 4 bolt main caps make you "go faster?".....main cap walk issues for ENDURANCE engines were the reason for this design addition.... The Cleveland was designed as a race engine for NASCAR.....lots and lots of high rpm's for hours.
ANYONE, including Comp Cams, who thinks the 4V heads are any good in the 6k rpm range are complete morons.....port velocity is WAY too low. Check out how Bob Glidden made these things work for drag racing.....ultra serious mods to the intake port floors and hacking the entire exhaust turn from the head....literally. He cut the entire exhaust side of the head OFF and replaced it with a blended flow exhaust plate. The idea was brilliant from Ford for race engines, but there was no way to turn the exhaust efficiently between the shock towers of a street car...and those were the stock heads Glidden had to work with. If you're considering a Cleveland .build, go 2V heads unless you're going into the danger zone above 6K.......still, very serious power there with correct porting mods.
