Standing up offroad: what really happens to your center of gravity 

People are daft, how on earth would anyone with a basic understanding of physics could think standing up lowers your COG?

The comments demonstrate that the term "center of gravity" is as universally misunderstood and misapplied as the term "contact patch". The crisis is not in understanding, it is in finding correct words for what we want to describe. The fundamental of standing up while riding is that the rider is decoupled from the bike, and trying to talk about that in terms of CoG is inappropriate.

Brett is 100% correct. Stand up and you raise your CoG. But you add another layer of suspension - your legs.

There is nothing here new to me but I just like listening you talk shop about bikes and riding. How you only have 149k subs boggles my mind though...

The most simplistic way to describe the benefit of standing I've found is to describe the bike as being like a horse. It naturally wants to stay upright, and by itself, its perfectly capable of doing so, what screws it up is the dummy on it's back. So, when the going gets rough, stand up to isolate your weight, the bike will take care of itself, as long as you can take care of yourself by keeping balance, and keeping steady gentle inputs.

from my MTB racing times we always said the best rear shock are your flexing legs, and you just approved it, nice nice, V!

Great video! One of the first channel for adv riding !

Best explanation on this subject I've ever heard!

There is another benefit to standing; moment arm of the rider is increased which translates into more stability (try balancing a broomstick, the tape a 3 pound wrench to the upper end and then try to balance it- it will be easier to maintain in a vertical orientation). Another bene; improved visualization of road detail (i.e. potholes and ruts).

as any >6'2"ft >110kg+ rider that's ever tried to ride a enduro bike standing up a techy hill when the application of power is required will know this first hand, unwanted immediate wheelstands are the result, for those of average and below ability anyway. Your video has helped my understand why I feel more comfortable standing on hills on the heavier 890 , even though my mass still rising when I stand, is a lower % of the total vehicle/rider mass.

Bret, you are perfectly right with your explanation, and if these people don't get it by now you shouldn't waste your energy on them. Love your content

Great channel, great host, and pure information.

Please Bret, release pods Even this, it will make everyone curious and watch it on RU-vid when explanation is needed 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

As usual, great rant

Here in an excellent lesson in basic physics and mathematics as it pertains to motorcycles, presented clearly and professionally. Thank you.

The most important takeaway from this video for me is: "Whether we're sitting on the seat or standing on the foot pegs, the combined mass remains the same." Thanks Bret for another gem.

Thank you for this!!!

Sprung vs unspring is definitely valid, but I think that the increased moment of inertia is equally helpful. You can push the bike down further while counter-leaning to overcome sideways and off-camber obstacles, essentially becoming more "tip resistant". This is more noticeable at low speeds

Hey Bret, I do enjoy watching your videos, ranting, riding and everything else. My partner and I travel Europe 2 up and for the first time moto-camping, is there any tips, tricks or anything else you could suggest? We will be quiet loaded and going down some off road routes and camping grounds. A possible idea for Content maybe 🤔 keep up the amazing work 👍

Exactly Bret

Very informative presentation, as we expect from Bret. ;-) There is simply a dramatic change in the way the bike can be handled, and in the real results we get, when we stand properly. It’s worth a great deal of effort to understand.

Appreciate you Brett

Great stuff Bret... The COG stuff is common knowledge (I hope). Important to note that COG has no bearing on coupling or decoupling from the bike. The emphasis to me is that standing up is merely the act of decoupling your body from the bike. Using the term "standing up" is thus a misnomer and may add to some of the confusion. Yes, you do stand up to decouple yourself from the bike, but the goal is to decouple, not to stand up.

All true, as far as up and down forces are concerned while going straight. One additional aspect of standing up not mentioned here is torque. (No, not engine torque, but the concept of force times length - of the lever with which a force is being applied, like in a torque wrench for example). Standing up moves the pivot point of the torque the body applies to the pegs, lengthens the leverage. This way the rider can apply more torque to lean the bike easier.

As far as i know another benefit of higher center of mass (or been taller on a bike) is that whole system needs more momentum to flip sideways and you have more time to react to this. I am not an engenier and can be wrong.

As an engineer, I was highly confused when you said people think raising theirself *lowers* the center of gravity. I cannot fathom what line of reasoning would end up at that conclusion lol. Never the less, thanks for the exceptional explanation. Learned some stuff!

Agree. Like what I learned a long time ago, let the bike play under you. And about the legs as additional suspension is also correct which I also learned from professional down slope skiers. Notice how their legs play on high speed absorbing all the bumps.

Thank you thank you thank you. I’ve been trying to tell my husband and brother in law this.

Thankyou! I had spent 10yrs as an instructor and could not agree with the theory that standing up lowered the c.o.g. It made no sense to me, but it was the said thing (probably still is). I asked many a fellow instructor how could it be possible that if i attatched a set of stilts to my footpegs and stood 10ft in the air above my bike that my c.o.g. would still be lower than if i was sitting on the seat?

Also, by standing up on the motorcycle, the moment of inertia of the rider-motorcycle system increases. This results in a higher overturning torque required for the motorcycle to lean over, leading to greater stability

Physics is a hard subject to study and there are too many people out their with youtube degrees trying to explain university level dynamics problems to youtube university students who suck it all up cause it makes more sense to them then actual numbers and facts from credible sources. People will ignore truth if they can understand BS. Ranting is a lot of fun, thanks bret

If you sit on the seat the majority of your body weight is on that seat loading the back of the bike. If you stand, the majority of your weight is at the foot pegs, the lowest point of the bike causing a more neutral balance front to rear. Center of gravity and neutral balance are two different things. Causing proper balance by shifting the weight off of the seat to the pegs FEELS like there is lower center of gravity due better control keeping the bike centered. Before this video I was fooled by how it felt like the COG was lower.

Yeah wow, never expected that one😂 A riders/bike center of mass is a constantly changing equation of speed, balance and weight. We can choose to amplify or counter our bikes suspension as it reacts to the terrain and speed in addition to any throttle or clutch application. Alpine skiers are able to write a similar equation with edge control at speed.

From my understanding, if you stand-up you do indeed raise your centre of gravity, but this only has an affect if the bike and rider are 100% vertical, it does not affect stability. It only affects stability when one moves the bike and/or rider from the vertical. Standing-up gives more precise control as even your head moving a few inches from vertical puts more weight to that side than it would if the rider was sat down (lever effect). Essentially, standing up allows a rider to fine-tune inputs to counteract the terrain more so than from sitting down. The legs also allow absorption of speed. Ride over a speed hump sat down, then try again stood-up, but absorbing the shock as you passover with your legs. Note the difference, and the maximum speed at which you can pass.

Hey. Would be cool to get your latest thoughts on the true 50/50 adventure tire. Is it still the e07?

I think a lot of this confusion happens because get people get the COG of the bike and the COG of the person is not specified. COG of the person does move upward when you stand, but the COG of the bike actually moves down. Think of a person sitting on a sawhorse with their feet off the ground and a scale underneath them. Their weight combines with the sawhorse and is applied to the legs of the sawhorse, but once you stand the weight goes to persons feet. Now if the sawhorse has pegs underneath attached to the frame then the weight shifts to a lower point of the sawhorse thus lowering the COG of the sawhorse. Because you stood up, your COG just went up, but separate from the sawhorse.

1000% agree. However, with the math, 25% understand

I agree with you. Although I never stand up while riding my CBR1000RR. 😉

It probably comes from the bike feeling more maneuverable under you if you stand up, so COG feels lower but really it is just decoupling your body from the bike.

So, you can more easily manipulate the weight of the bike and rider by standing which raises the mass weight on the pendulum?

I have always thought that when standing on the pegs leaning forward or back wouldn't change the bikes center of gravity as the location of the weight doesn't change.

It turns out Gumby is a good rider when standing off-road. Pitch and roll momentum are good for tight lines.

The one thing Brett did not say is that regardless of CG not changing, there is a big difference in control of the bike between sitting on your butt in rough terrain and standing through the same, it is really accentuated in mud and ruts and hill climbing. Get your butt off the seat.

If standing lowered the c of g wouldn’t MotoGP bikes corner with the rider standing?

could someone point me to where people are saying standing up lowers the c.o.mass.

I've always thought that the only bike where you'd spend most of the time standing is a trials bike.

This one will endlessly be debated until we can very clearly define ‘the system’ being analyzed. Is there just one spring and one unsprung weight (one system), or two springs and two unsprung weights? (Two systems). Meaning, the rider is a separate system with his legs being the springs. If it’s the latter, the rider is actively using his legs to dampen his weight, then the force on the pegs varies with the terrain. The center of gravity of the bike is now varying all over the place, and discussing what this center of gravity is seems to be a silly discussion. If it’s the former, then standing up is simple physics and the center of mass of the bike + rider is now higher. Just like the center of mass of kids on a merry-go-round, or figure skaters with limbs outstretched suddenly tucking in when doing a spin.

If you try to take your foot off the pedal when you are standing, the motorcycle becomes completely unbalanced. Now when you are sitting on the motorcycle seat, you can easily take your foot off the pedal. This means that the weight is actually lifted off the pedal when you are standing.

Riding upright, in my mind, never had anything to do about the center of gravity and everything to do with using your body as an extension of the suspension. I may be wrong. Just the fact that one rides standing up doing tech sections on a MTB I think confirms my thinking, as a MTB is much lighter compared to a bike.

👏😊

I stand up when the terrain demands it or to see over an obstacle. The rest of the time I sit down. I don't know why this seems so complicated or maybe I'm just a simple person. I've been told the latter,

I've never heard anyone claim that but I guess we can thank teacher's unions for creating a scenario in which anyone would think it necessary to teach that raising a mass raises center of mass. 😕 Your sound is fine, BTW.

So, standing on pegs doesn’t lower center of gravity but does rise control and balance?

You lost me at "welcome". 😛

Even without understanding the math, it seems clear enough that if you build any structure taller and taller, you're going to raise its center of gravity higher and higher, too. I feel like a lot of this stuff has been known for centuries. Our ancestors relied on horses for this stuff until just a century or so ago. I have no equestrian education, but I would guess your modern ADV enthusiast could learn a bit from equestrian manuals on overland riding. The US was still using horses in WWI, so there should be some practical guidance there, to start. I'll look into it. Maybe somebody else already knows about this stuff and can tell me. Regarding your sound setup, I know that a simple panel of acoustic foam standing right behind your mic (or behind the camera, since you're talking towards to the camera) can help attenuate a lot of noise. Mo' foam = mo' betta. You've got a big space to work with, but a little judicious panel setup can probably help. I heard your filter cut on early in the video, and that helped a lot, too.

Is this the best April Fools' Day joke or what. Sure got me.

Leverage baby

Very good explanation. Thanks for putting this together.

It's quite simple: Ask the people what happens with the cog of just the bike if the rider changes position. Of course it doesn't change. Now ask what happens with the cog of just the rider if he stands up. Of course it will lift. Now how can the stand up of the rider result in a lower cog if the only change is a lifting cog?

Hello, the fundamental concept of not changing center of gravity seems to be correct, but calculation regarding center of mass not correct, specially in first example the first subtraction ==-1, which is conceptually wrong !!!

Example with a 100 kg pilot Hypothesis 1 - I am sitting on the motorcycle, my weight exerts a force on the motorcycle saddle. In this way we ride the motorcycle using our butts at the saddle and handlebars. Regardless of the position of the rider's center of gravity, the coupling of the rider and the motorcycle takes place on the motorcycle saddle. Attach a 100 kg weight to the motorcycle saddle and try to lay the motorcycle on its side, and lift it. Hypothesis 2 - I am balanced on the pegs, our weight exerts a force on the pegs. This way we control the motorcycle with our feet and the handlebars. Regardless of the position of the rider's center of gravity, the coupling of the rider and the motorcycle takes place at the height of the motorcycle's footrests. Attach a 100 kg weight to the motorcycle pegs and try to lay the motorcycle on its side, and lift it up. Which of the two hypotheses is easier to balance?

Almost there. "Suspensionicity" is an aspect, but not the main one. Comment from rivernet62 nailed it: "the rider is decoupled from the bike". There is no rigid connection between the two bodies (bike and rider), so talking about COG has no sense. Just simply geometric aspects are predominant here. Think at the rider as a sack of potatoes transported on a motorcycle. Where you would put that load? On top of your tail-rack? Or would you distribute it in your (lower) side cases? The matter here is just one: the location of the point where the gravity force is applied. The higher is the point, the more unstable is the configuration. That's all.

The mass being you is weighted on the contact point. If you lean to the side than you raise your center of gravity if you go slow enough to tilt the bike. However if you stand perfectly straight your weight is added to the pegs thus adding more counter weight to the fuel tank (on typical bike - not gs/ktm 890…) this lowering center of mass. Of course if the bike tilts right or left you have to counter steer with body. If bike lean left you need to press more the right peg. So your claim is correct but not truely as center of gravity is lowered if acting properly. Of course vs sitting when the weight is mostly on the seat and thus higher…

You stand to lower where you apply your weight: pegs instead of the seat.

So the” rant” was something that is very obvious, and I dont know anyone who would have doubted the benefits of standing up to absorb shock. Note: there was no “sign language” gestures for the deaf, the presenter just has a family trait that he thinks makes no difference in how his communication is received.

Bret, thank you for all your content, but I got to chime in here. You are correct, but also wrong on the CG demo. It's how you consider the frame of reference. You are correct when you consider the bike and the rider as a complete system. If you have a CG height of the bike that doesn't change, and you have a CG of the rider that depends on riding position, you raise or lower you system CG as the rider stands or sits. Assuming the bike and rider are an attached ridged structure, this affects the Moment of Inertia of the system. As the CG of the two separate, the bike gets more "stable" or harder to roll about that axis. Think of the whole spinning skater demo and as the skaters arms come in the skater spins faster. To continue the analogy, we are in essence, "Extending our arms" when we stand up and allowing the bike and rider system. to more stable about the pitch and roll axis. However, when you look at just the forces on the bike it depends on where the weight of the rider is applied on the bike. If a rider is sitting, 90% of the weight of the rider is applied at the seat height, when the rider stands, 90% of the weight is applied on the foot pegs. Sum the forces on the bike at the location they are applied and that's why they say the CG lowers when you stand. The motorcycle only knows the forces acting on it. This is also why we all learned to pack heavier items as low and as close to the center line of the bike as possible. So, yes, but not the whole story.. Will say you are spot on for the sprung and unsprung mass. Thanks for being a great advocate for the sport and I hope to one day go on one of your trips.

Just going out on a limb here.. weight & balance pun intended.. commenting before I actually watch the video 😀 CofG = single point in any object about which it is perfectly balanced in all directions; □ motorcycle has a CofG □ rider has a CofG □ Add rider to motorcycle; result is a combined center of gravity or CCofG; Standing up raises the CofG of the rider, which in turn raises the combined CofG (CCofG) of the motorcycle and rider, which essentially have become one unit once the rider has climbed aboard. Pilots & forklift operators understand that there is a horizontal component as well as a vertical component, each with prescribed limits not to be exceeded regarding whatever equipment is being operated. Now I will watch the video to see if my correctness, or lack thereof, is within recommended limits. 🤗

All this yak, when the question is: how do you use rear brakes and shift gears when you stand on your toes....Wayyyy more important for an average driver. The minuscule change of center of gravity....like a full fuel tank? What about the better overview? Or bounce right off the bike when the riding gets rough...Would I fargin care? Buy a Beemer, it has a low COG...😂

This myth and why I stand up on my "adventure" motorcycle is basically reminiscing about younger days of me riding my BMX (motorcross-like) bicycle when I was 10 years old. That's it really. Other reasons are just BS.

Hey me and you will go on an enduro trail ride . I will ride my bike however I choose to ride ( standing/sitting) all you have to do is ride with me sitting the whole time. Record the whole ride so we can upload the results instead of you jawing in front of a chalk board. Let me know!

Pretty obvious that you center of gravity is raised. What you do is add a hinge into the system so that the entire mass doesn't need to move.

Yu Wong Too. 😂

Common sense isn't so common for some? 🤦

You're all wrong, you stand up to save your kidneys from being smashed.

Come teach us in Israel, please ❤

Where did you get the equation? It works with it feels to me that the center of mass would be calculated horizontally versus vertically. I’d have to look it up.

people just need to learn how to stand 1st and foremost - you are not meant to be a lamp post, pivot at the hip and stick your arse out, give the bike and yourself a chance

You missed your calling…. You should be working on a Billy Graham telethon….

@bret sounds like you know your physics… thanks for the rant-splainer!

If you were in a full body cast, with your feet, strapped to the pegs, and your hands, strapped to the bars, you would be correct

This is why I argue that people should study a bit of physics when they learn how to ride a motorcycle. If they understood how the motorcycle actually works they wouldn't sound like an idiot all the time. Read through any comment section and it makes you wonder where all the inteligence went that got humanity where it's at, that is very sad. We need more critical thinkers.

It's a bit less exact than math can describe. We are big floppy meat bags, not a solid weight base. Sitting adds our mass to the bike proportionally to our position. When we stand, we move our mass to a vertical pivot point based on how we move. We can position ourselves to improve that weigh balance or make it worse. Making it better is what our brains will naturally do. Making it worse would take effort or complete incoordination.

The simple cause you should be telling is that when we stand up while riding it isolates the riders mass from the moving engine mass below which makes it easy to find its true trajectory. You've gone into too much detail to explain something which you know is right. The thing with technical definitions is you need to define everything you use, which you don't here, which leads to more confusion actually.

🥱

A little high school physics is a good thing.

I need to go back to the issue of weighting the pegs. RyanF9 sort of poo poo'd the thought. I think his conclusions might be wrong though. He showed, in isolation, you can't turn a motorbike simply by shifting weight on the pegs...but it's a commonly taught dirt/adv technique. I think it works in conjunction with your body weight/handle bar pressure.

Are there still people out there, who do NOT understand the basics of physics? Probably those without a decent school education.

P.S. standing has very little to do with "lowering center of gravity" its about letting the bike move under you where it needs to go while using your legs as an extension of the suspension. The way you speak and no offense sounds like you have very little experience racing or even riding enduro off road. Just sayin.

stopped at second 20. riders don't stay upright in offroad to reduce center of gravity, but because they love their balls! nonsense discussion here

Here is an example *most can understand, no math involved. (*most is an overstatement nowadays). Most are probably familiar with the cheetah, the fastest land animal. It has a thick and long tail which it uses as a counter balance when zig-zagging at high speeds. This is exactly what one is supposed to be doing when standing up offroad. We are NOT supposed to be standing up stiff like a dead log, we are supposed to be using our bodies as a counter balance. Just like the the cheetah's LONG and thick tail alters the center of gravity of the animals speeding body, that's exactly what our bodies should be doing when standing up. Raising our bodies, raises the center of gravity thus giving us ample of leverage to counter balance the immense weight of a moving motorcycle! Anything contrary is plain old stupid.

Ok take out the math it’s for the keyboard warriors , riders stand up and seat regardless. Up and down we go , the whole time I’m smiling 😊😊😊😊😊😊

The problem is people have completely lost their critical thinking ability.

Please get out of the classroom and on your bike! 😉😘

When I'm sitting on the bench, most of my weight is concentrated on the bench. When I'm standing, 100% of my weight is on the pedals, right?

One benefit is easyer to fart! Jus saying

This is like having a conversation with a flat-earther about the shape of the world, LOL! What's the point? You can't win an argument with someone who is irrational, it's an exercise in futility.

Why are you waving your hands around, which distracts from what you are trying to communicate ?.? Centre of Gravity / Centre of Mass. Gravity applies to mass. ( we are riding within 10 miles of sea level 99% of the time) Why switch the term about “like we should know” there should be no difference between them. Just use ONE TERM ! Then the point you are making ( which is obvious to most ) the centre moves further from the road when you stand. Clearly the bike has its own centre, and if a human did not straighten their legs “their centre” does not change. When we straighten our legs own human centre has moved slightly further away from the bikes centre. Of course the combined mass stays the same. My legs absorb some of my mass, so a percentage is moved from the seat to the pegs. ( all .? ) If my legs are LOCKED straight, then all the human mass that was going through seat is now going through pegs. Arm waving tells me you have not considered your viewers ability to comprehend.

Not really correct - if the body would be "glued" to the bike then one could argue like that. But the issue is that we never ride like that. Even if it is learned that the legs have to be tugged to the bikes tank, it's just not exactly the same. And if we talk of off-roading / standing - exactly the issue that the body is decoupled from the bike and the gravity >forces< of the body relative to the bike have an effect only on the pegs, makes the standing so effective. 1. it feels very stable even if we do some upper body movement (contrary to your statement) and 2. we can handle the movement of the bike much better because the "contact" resp. forces of the bike are transferred only via peg. And if you sit, then the calculations you have done apply much more .. combined COG much higher then bikes' ... 🙂 ... and that is why we stand up.

Yes, and you are still wrong. Your centre of gravity is only raised if when standing you're firmly attached to the bike and you don't move independently from it. Because your legs and hands change how they apply the force of your mass as the bike moves under them, the effect is to lower the centre of gravity of the whole system for specific bike movements. The skill is lowering the center when you need it low, then raising it when it doesn't matter - and that's what your body is doing while you're standing. Same as riding a horse at speed - it's the dynamic shift of center of gravity during particular bike movements which is the key element, not the height of it on average. When it counts, the centre of mass is lower. When it doesn't matter, it's higher. So it's true to say you are lowering the centre, because that's the point.

I don't care a bit about the physics or definitions here. All I know is when I stand the bike becomes much more stable, and when I plonk my arse back on the seat that bit of extra stability disappears. Whatever the physics, the effect is mimicking the feeling of lowering the centre of gravity.