State of Rollbackia Address: What is One-sided Rollback, KOF Interview, Lobbies & Online Features 

Broke: he made this video because of melty Woke: he made this video because of nick all star brawl

Seeing how easy it is to screw up with rollback makes me appreciate how good Strive's netcode can be with only ONE frame of buffered input delay (putting lobbies aside for a moment). It's even better if Arcsys uses it as a base for future game's online (which they've stated) because you know it's gonna be good. Meanwhile with SF and Tekken you're not sure if the next game's gonna get the netcode right this time. Here's hoping.

"The netcode is getting worse the more I play" Thats the law of averages my friend. The netcode wasn't as well implemented as you first thought, now you have more data for its true quality.

Weird thing about Street Fighter is that SFIV had a compulsory benchmark for online play and you had to run the benchmark whenever you changed settings that could affect performance. But for some reason they didn't bother with putting a benchmark test is SFV

Sajam needs to make a "citizen of rollbakia" shirt asap.

on the brighter side, this is at least a good sign that japanese companies are now realizing that rollback is important for their games, and hopefulley they can improve on the rollback later on

NRS has stated that one-sided rollback is worse for the player with the better connection. Which only makes me more infuriated with their lack of a wifi filter in ranked modes.

That answer from the kof devs really sounded like the old resistance from japanese devs to consider a bigger picture outside their enviroment and values, it sounded just like how they used to approach rollback before strive embraced it

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Indie titles have to do everything perfect for people to even give them a passing glance, let alone actually try them. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be an indie dev that solves all these problems and then have people still refuse to try out your sick ass game.

Nick devs have said they know what's wrong and will have a fix when their programmer comes back from vacation. Same with stage specific lag.

Can't let the netcode be TOO functional.

Most of the people I fight who rollback on me play just so happen to play mixup heavy characters.

Good on my end is Frodo and Friends making it out of the Minds of Moria…When Gandalf is fighting the Balrog in LOTR2…that’s that the other half

What's interesting about Type Lumina is that it actually plays pretty well with high ping, but as soon as you start getting moderate packet loss it starts playing really bad. Unlike +R, Strive, and even MBAACC. What's weird is +R and Type Lumina both us ggpo so they should both be able to deal with higher packet loss. It must just be in how Type Lumina is currently implementing the library. I saw some speculation that the packets don't contain enough past frames so if too many packets are dropped it dysncs causing one-sided rollback and then it must not sync itself by pausing frames or it won't pause enough frames. Anyways I hope they fix it because from the outside it seems like a fairly fixable issue. Oh also super randomly MBAACC community edition has a beta version with a lobby system that while ugly as hell works pretty well and is in the style of the Nick smash game. It even lets you start spectate after a match has started which is a weird missing feature in some other games. To bad the new lobbies came out like right between Strive and Lumina instead of a few months before Strive and after +R got rollback. Would have been interesting to see MBAACC as the flavor of the month popular old fighting game.

Being a fighting game fan is so frustrating. Instead of finding a game I love I find myself constantly searching for the game that pisses me off the least. And it's almost entirely basic functionality and quality of life feature destroying good games.

It really is the indy devs working hard on functionality. For a while now I've been expecting 2 guys in a garage to rollback a 3D game before Tekken works properly online.

"I think the delay method is better..." Sounds like somebody didn't read the Infilament article. Cuz if he did, he would know that rollback is just DELAY + MORE STUFF. And this dude is one of the developers. Yeah, I'm suddenly very worried about KoF.

There needs to be more emphasis on the fact that one-sided rollback screws over the player with the BETTER connection just because that fact is God's own definition of "counterintuitive". Now Imma hook up at 14.4k and pwn you all.

Honestly the hypest thing I've seen in any fighting game is the shadow ai thing from KI, I don't really play many games anymore but when I was dabbling in KI seeing the ai copy me and recognize the various weaknesses of my gameplay was really crazy. I think I played Raam which is interesting cause I generally don't play slow garpler man characters

Damn he’s

what I'm hoping Oda could be saying (and this is a bit of a stretch) was that he saw other games making gameplay design decisions around the expectation of rollback, such as making sure no move is likely to cause too drastic a prediction error, and that he thinks KoF fundamentally depends on having moves with 1 frame startups etc. which he doesn't want to compromise on

Lobbies should really be looked at more when developing a fighting game. I've tried getting into traditional fighters for years and TFH was the first one I stuck with mostly because of the lobbies. Being able to challenge anyone without problems, seeing their ping, having great chat features, customization options and having chests you can fight for really made me more willing to sit through the hard part of learning how to play.

Hope Sajam does a full video abotu lobbies one day

"Wi-fi is okay if you're close to the router." -Harada

Here's a wild example of systems not being in sync. I was making a networked game that required both timers stay in sync. I tested it locally on the SAME COMPUTER and one of the games was counting time faster and they got out of sync.

Damn he's not connected without issues

Man, I played some PC Melty yesterday, and the intro issue still isn't fixed. The other player always skips the intro, and then the first 5-10 seconds of gameplay are full of the worst rollback teleports I've ever seen. It's such a fun game when it works, I just wish it worked more often.

I really hope SNK sees what happened with Nick and Melty Blood and irons out the details before launch. KoF 15 is the next game I'm really looking forward to, and I'm hoping I can effectively split my time between that and Strive. Really don't want them to stumble out the gate.

You can literally check your opponents FPS mid match in TFH. It's great. Pixel lobbies are the best.

I wasn’t really aware of the one sided rollbacks in melty cuz it never happened to me but I hope it’s fixed for everyone it’s affecting.

Can’t talk right now babe new Sajam video just dropped.

I'm just glad that Strive's Netcode works well. I'd like to be able to manually change the rollback frames and that they told me the ping beforehand.

sajam's clothes and lighting keep rolling back throughout the video

I am glad theres more awareness of one sided rollback. It typically benefits the person who has the worst connection(because it needs to catch up, the one ahead gets the rollbacks as explained by mikez) This is why wi-fi players swear there's no lag while you are getting rollbacks all over the place. It's a big problem, as far as i know skullgirls, Fightcade2 and strive are among the few where that doesn't happen, not sure about strive. Instead of pushing just rollback we should be pushing GGPO kind of rollback or straight up GGPO, specially if it is the improved GGPO mikez implemented in his last days in skullgirls. Developers are trying to reinvent the wheel when the problem has been already solved more than a decade ago by someone else. It's bizarre how modern fighting games took so long to even start having primitive kind of rollback when it has been done before literally more than a decade ago and that we still have to pretty much beg for it's implementation

"Fighting games are bad at looking at what other games are doing well," Harada said exactly this on his show, and remarked that Virtua Fighter should have led the way with online play. And that he was clueless heading into online play. Wishing he had a peer to look to for influence.

One-sided roll back was my specialty in SFV back in the day.

I don't understand why devs don't make ping visible. It's not a complicated concept: "what is ping?" It's how good your connection is, lower number means better connection. That's it.

I wonder if clock sync chips will ever become the norm as this is a use case it could really help in.

"The delay method is better for players with a good internet environment, because the rollback code's slightly higher body temperature will negatively affect the internet's flavor."

Nice video thx.

If any of the decision makers from these big devs have played Them's Fightin' Herds I will eat my hat

Is KOFXIII on rollback yet? That’s my favorite one and it’s the best looking

Type Lumina having one sided rollbacks explains so much about weird matches i experienced.

I played melty just long enough to experience SFV netcode and have my melty smooth brain mashing effect my strive play.

This video came at a great time for me. I was just wondering why my Melty games were always GOOD ON MY END and it was driving me insane I want to fight my opponents at their full strength dammit

Melty online looks like DBZ with all the teleporting.

Damn not even mentioning Footsies

I think granblue had a really good lobby and private room system I wish other games just took that and just improved it. I doubt anyone would be upset

2:31: I don't see the problem, looks like normal Akuma vortex movement to me.

I've had bad matches from time to time but it seems terrible after the recent update (ps4)

the fast game argument has been out the window for so long, ffs mvc2 and smash have great rollback and they have plenty of instant startup moves. there's just no merit to the argument

Is TFH "them fighting herds"

When people are lined up to play you on stream in strive, how do you keep track of everyone's place if they're leaving the line to play other people?

My interpretation of the "KOF-ness" comment is not that they're saying that rollbacks would hurt what makes the game KOF, but rather that they think adjusting things like frame data and the timing of VFX/SFX to be more rollback friendly would lose the KOF-ness.

Week 1 was definitely better thank week 2 for me with melty

KOF 15 beta does have one sided rollback, but at least there's a beta to discover it.

15:30 This is what I've been saying for so long. But it seems the majority of the FGC dont want devs to look to other genres for idea at how to improve or evolve fighting games Even though almost every other genre is substantially more popular for varying reasons, has done SOMETHING that fighting games do but better, and borrowing from them would be wise. However, that requires some fundamental changes, and change is always met with backlash from the FGC niche anytime it impacts gameplay design. Can't give up any aspect of tradition, even if that traditional design element is holding the genre down.

What is nik or whatever game he’s talking about for bad rollback I might’ve gotten the acronym wrong

sometimes the lobby got hands

KoF XV is looking so good, please dont let them fuck this up.

KoF trying to rollback theit netcode statement. Unfortunately it's one sided and we won't forget they promised it.

intersting

One-sided rollback is the future for KoF 15. If it's not i'll buy it, but i have zero faith on SNK.

If the connection is perfect, rollback will not kick in. So what the hell is he talking about is beyond me.

The KoFness Oda is talking about refers to the grounded footsies the game is known for

ZINAC = HACKERMAN ?

I'm telling you that the person with the stronger connection get's 99% of the one-sided roll-back.

ALL CAPS WHEN U SPELL THE MAN NAME RIP MF DOOM

Is there a weird audio buzz when Sajam is talking? Like white noise but only when he speaks

hi

Question for those more knowledgeable than me: I play brawlhalla on PS4, and a uncommon (but infuriating) issue I run into is that sometimes, after playing a match about halfway through, I start getting massive one sided rollbacks. This will continue happening for many games in a row, wether playing with the same people (which is how I know it's one sided) or different randoms online. I can't do a wired connection with my setup but I do have priority on a 5g network, of which only one other device is connected to. Is there any reason I'm still getting rollbacks throughout multiple? Anything I can do to fix it? Or is it just game servers not working in my favor?

🎮

Had to wait 30 minutes to get a laggy game for melty. Week 1 and already lack of players in my rank? :/ hmm idk

Imagine a casual party mode in strive where one guy plays as boss nago and two people pick characters and come at him tag team style.

delay is okay if you're close to the router 😏

Meltys rollback is a Trojan horse from JP devs to get everyone to stop mentioning rollback in the future

I played melty for like an hour last weekend and spent 30 minutes waiting for a match. Played one during the 30 and couldn't get a match after.

So Play Strive over Melty because its a better and functioning product than Melty? Gotchu fam.

How come indie devs can implement these online features that we want but not bigger companies?

I read the original interview in Japanese. Oda did say this. It gives me the impression he doesn't know what he is talking about. If the connection is good I would rather play with 0 delay anytime. I wonder even if he played the code mystics ports. They are great with rollback.

aye bruhv im no genius but why you changed shirts during this? must be a fake video. i dont think we can trust you anymore.

Alot of these companies are only now getting used to implementing this netcode While this doesn’t excuse a lack of global beta tests, it likely means they’ll get used working within the system and fix issues like this over time

Technically delay based netcode is better for people with good internet connections. Everyone already knows it is easier to implement for developers. Rollback also has a few drawbacks, including increased memory use (you need to save the state of the last few frames and other things) and performance decreases (look at the article! apparently MKX had their time between frames tripled when first switching to rollback). Im not saying that delay based netcode is any good, but it is technically better than rollback if the two players already have a good, stable connection.

Theres also less people playing so you're probably playing people a bit farther away on average

I feel like the "don't complain" mentality is why FGs are so archaic in so many ways compared to other genres. Whenever you move beyond praising the game and start giving any kind of criticism there is always a bunch of people who will take it personally or as an assault on their favourite game / franchise. It's really hard to have constructive discussion with those people.

Please God don't let the new kof have shitass netcode I'm ready to go all in on a new kof. I need a good modern fighting game to get dedicated to again. Sfv botched it and kof has the only other pedigree that resonates with me.

Wtf is Oda talking about? Bizarre comments

Who wants to bet the majority of pro players somehow experience one sided rollback in their favors. Ive noticed this from playing in countless tournaments, its like the ones who win the whole thing will never lag and their opponents will be lagging af but dont want to say anything to not seem salty. I wonder if lagging and saying "my connection was fine" is now a real tech

kof xv rollback will be bad .

he's saying delay-based is better and more "KOF-y" because he's a stegosaurus. it's not that deep. SNK is a Japanese company, and Japanese businessmen will never accept change until long after it becomes the norm. you can see this in Capcom, Nintendo, and pretty much every other Japanese game company.

Its really not very reassuring to see team leads saying technically inaccurate things about the netcode system theyre implementing. Even if you cant trust a single person overseas to test with you can simulate network conditions and compare your game to something like fightcade, or even Strive. Surely with how expensive and committal video game dev is some light pressure testing is worth it. ...Does japan even know one-sided rollback is fixable at this point? t. salty lumina steam user

That KOF interview just reeks bad implementation.

Japan is wracked with Not Invented Here Syndrome. Until they get over it at a cultural level, they'll never be able to use others' good ideas or even take inspiration from them, solely because they are *others'* ideas. SoulCalibur VI launched without button config at character select and it took like three updates to get it, even though Tekken 7 launched with it and they were right next door. NIH Syndrome even extends to different teams in the same company.