The Two Types of Gamers (Honers vs. Innovators) 

i think most people like doing both, unless youre a casual and dont like doing either! XD

Zero percent I don't play fighting games

I'm a honer first, then become an innovator when my skill peaks.

@@tchitchouan Is chess a fighting game? Demon's Souls? Did you even watch the video?

75% innovator, 25% honer. I don't like grinding in training mode.

there's already pseudo-DLC's like Fog-of-War and Four-Way, no we'll just have to wait for Queens throwing fireballs xD

I Feel attacked for using geese more on tekken then a regular kof game lol

5d chess is a thing...

you clearly haven't heard of Chess Evolved lol

If I had friends I'd like to invent a chess variant where you have to buy the peices using playing cards. So you play like go fish or something to earn the cards. (Feel free to stop reading I'm about to go into detail about the rules of a game you'll probably never play) I'd prefer to adapt the movement to use on a hex tiled playing surface. Use colored rubber bands to differentiate peices. And I know I said go fish but that's just for simplicity's sake. Ideally I'd want to have two visually different decks so you have a hand that you play uno with then you have a plie that is cards you've earned and then you have a line up of cards you're ready to play. If you make someone draw you add one card to your pile. if you go out you add seven cards to your pile. And when its someone else's turn you can move one card from your pile to your line up or from your line up to your pile or switch a card from your line up with one in your pile. They don't have to wait on you for this it's up to you to make it happen while it's still their turn. you can only have seven cards in your line up and they all have to be face up so the other players know what moves are possible. You cannot move cards to your line up during your own turn. On your turn It goes uno first then spawn peices then move. There are many value systems for what each chess peice is worth Use whichever one you like as long as the table is using the same one numbers are worth their number faces are worth 11 12 & 13. An ace can be turned in for a bishop instead of spent as one point. if you use a jack to spawn a knight you get a free pawn if you use a queen to spawn a queen you get two free pawns and if you use a king to spawn a pawn the king becomes surrounded buy pawns. (Maybe that last one should be a rook idk) Kings start out exposed and you have to build up around them.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

GAGAGAGAGAGA! I will now count to 3 and then I am still the unprettiest RU-vidr of all time. 1...2...3. GAGAGAGAGAGA!!! Thank you for your attention, dear na

After seeing some Korean Dota 2 commentary, this doesn't surprise me.

Lmao I was thinking the same that was so good

@@graylienz8317 naw it was quite well done

Yeah I was that way but with fall guys idc who wins I just enjoy playing and getting better at it for me

@@Padlock_Steve what a gross thing to say

As an innovator married to a honer, it always end ups as “there’s this cool new game out let’s play it together” and while they pump in hours of pure gameplay experience I’m over here absorbing knowledge and asking “can this effect that?” And then testing it out and when it works I show it off and boom the honer adds that to their toolkit and we continue like that until a new game catches our fancy

4 complain untill developer mskes the game so easy no ammount of extra skill means anything. 5 having taken away fun from everyone, leave the fame anyway. The casual

When an innovator and a honey pair together you have an unstoppable force, even in solo games, where the innovator finds all the hidden mechanics and interactions, you have the honor that perfects them but wouldn't find those themself. Like me in runescape, I find new busted interactions, spend as much time playing as I do wiki'ing items I have yet to mess with, and what I discover I relay to my brother who is a honer, who actually is good at the game and can properly utilize what I find out.

This right here is why speedrunning is blowing up the last few years. It's a virtuous cycle instead of a death spiral. Creating balance in your game is the most important thing to its longevity. Speedrunning is really its own game that uses certain video games as its medium: Do X as fast as possible (usually beat the game, but not always). The honers and innovators each have their place and feed each others successes, and those who are good at both tend to achieve more WR runs in more games, faster.

Honer may as well be an innovator since they tried many times and might come up with some idea. I just cant understand how people do same thing over and over...

And what do the innovator get from this? It's more of a parasitic relationship, where the innovators quit as the fun is gone

@@hanneskarlbom6644 The innovators don't think so. Many of them also speedrun, but there are some people who are just sequence-break specialists. The journey of discovery is where they get their enjoyment.

@@TheSolitaryEye dosen't change the fact they don't get abything from it. -_-

Boaaaaa 👌

Go Brazilian

Parabéns a você também monstro!!!

You're awesome as well. Sempre ajudando a alavancar a FGC BR

vinicinhos rápido no mouse

Damn i didnt know you watched core a

Why does everyone comments this on every single one of his video

@@mohamedbelbaali659 because he uploads every 14 years

Alright, I wake up DP. Did you block?

Had no idea you were into fighting games thats dope

100% scrolled down to see if anyone commented this before posting it myself LOL

I... didn't get the ref.

Such a subtle reference too!

I absolutely died when he said that. Makes me sad I don't understand Korean so I can watch more of this godlike commentary.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

Just tradeoffs, my man. It all evens out.

이 정됴면 그냥 석유죠 석유 XD

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

Relax dude you’re thinking too hard about it

I actually believe zoners are absolutely key for improving. I basically only played against a young link (if you haven’t played ylink, he is generally considered very annoying to play against), for months, and that my experience taught me soo much about improvement. A lot more than when I was playing against rushdown and aggressive characters. I think it’s why people get tilted against zoners, they don’t know how to find the fun because they just wanna play aggressively and combo, when the beauty fighting games often comes out the better you get at neutral. Zoners force your neutral to improve.

@@firstlast-wg2on Hard agree. Any type of 'spammy' opponent is absolutely wonderful for practicing because they put you in only one or two different types of situations for entire matches. All of my approach game in Smash was developed playing against people who used one specific type of move to keep me at arm's length, I barely improved at all when playing against more well-rounded opponents. ...That being said, I still infuriate my friends when I roll Mewtwo 'cause for some reason his wonky projectile path throws them off every damn time, and I have no idea how they haven't figured out how to avoid it. Half the time I toss it out wanting to bait them into the air, and they mistime their jump, somehow still getting hit and ruining my favourite little 'Whiff Shadow Ball into Shadow Claw' tool.

@@CoralCopperHead Just wait for when you play zoners who mix up all the time as well, that shit is a mentality waking call lol, but yeah, ai think I know the interaction you’re talking about, people tend to get flustered when they’re hit by the little shadow balls

The only zoner I Main is Link and Ssbu and I use all of the projectiles to throw my friends off and rush in to attack

It's just a disjoint tech is all.

Making me think of TierZoo’s videos.

En passant, something I did by accident playing a chess app, and couldn't figure out how to repeat it for a long time.

Bruh it's a fuzzy guard break.

@@maxspecs the Chess biome meta

Damn, he's prompt

Jiyuna I love your vids ❤️

"Your welcome Jiyuna"

Damn he's fast

see you tomorrow at the viewing

woah so cool to see you here, on a 9 months old video :o I think card games reward innovators much more than honers though. No matter how much you practice piloting, variance will always cap how good you can be, it's not like you can ever truly become unbeatable like in fighting games. On the other hand innovators have constant opportunities to find new tech, craft new archetypes, just in general being able to be unique rather than pursuing the one "optimal play".

@King of The Zinger watch out everyone, we have a badass

COUNTER STRIKE HAS ENTERED THE CHAT

​@@KincaidCS2as one of the fps he described

Gerald is an absolute master at that. The art of teaching ("pedagogy" if you're a nerd) is not something that everyone is good at, and I always appreciate good pedagogy when I see it because most people won't even notice. You can tell what Gerald's favorite fighting games are, but he never misses a beat when it comes to displaying how core fighting game concepts apply to even the wildest games in the genre. No community is left out. Relating video game concepts to board games and sports is also an incredibly smart move to make sure every viewer is on the same page. What a guy, that Gerald!

@@QuintessentialWalrus So how much does pedagogy involve honing (knowing plenty about teaching and practice) and innovating (figuring out what applies better)?

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

It's what makes me likes the channel even though I don't care about fighting games

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

How do i play the Pichu matchup? Please i have a tournament in 2 minutes

ayo?

I'm glad you make videos Ludvix

Luvdix

I saw that and wondered what mad man would even attempt to do such a thing. I mean, I love level-grinding as much as the next hardcore FF fan, I even got MeteoRain and Satellite Beam in Reactor 1, but that's ridiculous.

That's not even honing, it's just a time sink lol

Same here lol

@@felman87 there’s a really interesting video on it. Two people were essentially racing to get to lvl 99 for YEARS

@@TheCvl25 yea by cybershell

So Cid (Dick) and Yuffie (Tree).

Not sure you're aware, but that footage has a LOT of history

the chad

@@Eichro exactly. I believe Cybershell already made a video about it. Leveling up to 100 in first area of FF7

As a casual myself, I feel like they also subconsciously fall under one of these group, they just have a lower limit on how how far they'll go into honing or innovating the game for themselves.

Sounds like me. I just realized Dead Or Alive is no competitive fighting game. Man I have fun playing that game. At least shit doesn't stress me out. I realized that when thinking in Tekken you have to master shit while in DOA you can just do whatever and have fun lmao

Back in the good old days where Ganondorf was the best character in smash. 13 million GSP later, it’s too late to go back. Enjoy it while you can

I don’t know anything about basketball and I recently played NBA 2k for the first time. My friends said I did better than some people they knew who knew all about basketball. I think this was the reason. I knew nothing about actual basketball rules or strategy so a lot of the stuff I did threw them off. I still lost, but that is expected.

Off-Meta players who know their kit will do much better than someone just sweating with the meta.

Meta: Zuko shooting lightning Off-Meta: Zuko redirecting lightning

Those are usually called "Troll Strats" and they make honers so mad!

High level players are so used to playing 4D Mind Games that you can get away with doing the obvious sometimes

The reason checkers and mancala have so many variants

Many real world games and sports got "patched" through the ages. Basketball is a great example of that condensed.

@@CarbonRollerCaco exactly if I'm correct dribbling was originally looked at as passing to yourself

@@saiyanroyalty229 Core-A-Gaming talks about the history of dribbling in a different video, actually!

@@saiyanroyalty229 Didn’t Gerald mention that in one video?

Yeah exactly, I was training in KOF15 yesterday for the first time and I seemed to be totally with the program until the game decided to throw me a curveball by introducing advanced cancelling techniques. I couldn't execute the for the life of me and I had no idea what I was doing wrong.

i had this exact same problem in skull girls actually

so true ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6ypg69--Svc.html

kof13 tutorial....

Playing fighters online is a nightmare. If only they brought back the fatal fury thing were the game told you a new special after each bonus game in singleplayer so it was digestible

Let's go Justin

I love that he subverted expectations by using something else tbh. Giving the spotlight to one of the hundreds of great clips not getting as much views was a tasteful choice.

No it didn't, I have a life & imagine most people have too. Or at least to the next not to focus on the lore of foriegn niche Japanese video games.

@@levelup1279 Dude, he's just referencing something very recognizable in the fighting game community, in an attempt to be relatable... There's no need to question a person's creativity over wanting to be relatable in a comment section on a topic they're passionate about. Unlike you, he's not attempting to shut people down or berate those who he disagrees with. He's just looking for others to relate too on a thought he felt was surefire. No need to be so spicy towards him. Your sense of individuality shouldn't feel attacked so easily XD

@@levelup1279 being passionate about something does not equate to not having a life. You got some ass backwards thought process and are the example of the mediocre trying to put down anyone who has something they care about. It shows the level of intellectual and emotional immaturity you have, that’s middle school shit. Also, wtf is “foreign niche Japanese video games” lol What you said makes zero sense both grammatically and, implying that 3S was a niche Japanese video game. It’s fucking street fighter for one and that moment happened at Evo 😂

yeah but one frame links were far from mandatory at high level where as parry is a requirement

@@juhadexcelsior Not if your opponent also doesn’t know how to parry.

@@Tom-jw7ii then neither of you would be playing at high level lol

@@juhadexcelsior Oh, I misread your comment. I thought you said “until high level” or something like that.

@@Tom-jw7ii no problem

ru-vid.com/show-UCUECwqJqORgNguLdAedHUYg

as a musician wannabe, I loved to upvote your comment

There's that bunch who measure their progress in terms of the BPM on their metronome. I personally believe the best is to stay some where in the middle. Never neglect one side too much.

I'd extend the metaphor to languages as well. I speak multiple languages and am able to play several instruments. I would argue the skills are directly transferable between each other in that I need to divide my time between theory (techniques, grammar, execution) and spontaneity (improvisation, speaking, composing).

well said! bravo

Ik this is out of nowhere but do you happen to drumset and piano. Cuz i do and I’m musician and you just sound like someone whomplays those instruments to me. I’m probably nowhere close tho lmao

Yeah, it's pretty much what he talked about, by the fact that in some games, it's possible to really start innovating only after you've honed a lot.

I think speedrunning is very broad, but the example shown of SM64 (likely 16 star) is 99% execution. The category is so "figured out" that its down to performing everything perfect. Now, something like Ocarina of Time is definitely a way different beast, especially when you go through the world record progression. Way more innovation there in recent years than there has been in SM64. But yes, I totally agree with you. There are games that lean way more into improving the route and techniques rather than just improving execution.

you can't become an innovator without serious time invested in honing first.

congratulations on doing the most pointless and degenerate act on human history

@@garbagelmao2730 homeboy why you upset, what happened, talk to me 💀

I resonate with that too, in all that I do

@King of The Zinger Nice for you! I'm more of an innovator, but i pray to have your spirit when buying Street Fighter for the first time! Good Luck out there!

@King of The Zinger jmcrofts just uploaded a video on shield wars in Melty Blood, maybe you should check those out.

Definitely resonates with that old art staple "Master the fundamentals and then you can break them."

That's all the honing they did with video pacing

yeah but the music is so damn loud

It's the music 😏

All core A videos man

Love your vids daryl, glad to see you here

Huh, I've always found weird new stuff in commander, and the same things over and over in standard. I'm not rich enough for draft tho so I can't comment on it

I agree so much lol, draft formats are so fun to play and watch on both casual and competitive environments. There's a certain charm to the improvisation skills needed, while also allowing low performance units/cards to see high level play in a natural way (without needing developer interferance with balance patches, etc).

I despise draft so I guess I'm the opposite lol. Studying the meta and actually piloting/tweaking/sideboarding those decks right is what shows player IQ to me.

I just like finding wack cards and going “I wonder if I can make an entire deck around this?”

Deckbuilder gang rise up

So that’s why I like them so much! XD

Hey ABD

@@moisteist8166 hello

You can love deez nuts

Hey ABD, been a while ;b

@@goldeneaglereborn lol it seems like you got 3 that likes em or possibly and more likely that luv those nutz.. You know what fuck it,make that 4 likes as of 1716hr 10/18/2021😂

that was fucking epic

Am underrated classic I wanna see make a Comeback for the OST alone.

I main Trident with Larcen as my sub. Better use that taunt or you're taking 70%+ damage from one fireball -> spinning trident->throw combo.

That's the nature of video games. This works well in real life. No one lives to tell people about your secret technique. That's the trick though. The best way to accomplish what you're looking for is to play games where you can mask what it is you're really doing. Fair Warning: Story Time. ------------- When I played Armored Core back in the day I had a combo technique that hid what I was actually doing. People always attributed my success to one weapon I brought along or another. But they never made the connection that my success relied on the unique combination of weapons together, and what I was doing with them. This is because the two attacks looked very similar in some ways. Part of this involved my build, which was also off meta. I built robots which were very heavy and slow, and which could resist the ballistic type weapons most top tier players favored. I would use this to close in on them and ignore their fire at first, so I could get into optimal range for my attack to make sure it landed. I never told people this. I simply played like I wasn't good at dodging for the purpose of ensuring my own hit, often waiting until they were reloading to ensure they couldn't shoot back. I did a missile / bazooka combo, making it so I could hide the bazooka shot in the missile cloud. The slower missiles are normally easier to dodge despite their homing ability. But the movement pattern left them vulnerable at close range to the bazooka's faster flight since it involved putting distance between us as opposed to moving to the side. The bazooka could not easily penetrate their mech's energy shields. But it hit hard enough to stun them. This let the missiles hit them entirely, with zero misses. Which rapidly depleted their HP and took down their shields. By the time the second bazooka shot came in they were just getting back up to speed, and with their shields down, the bazooka shots now did massive damage. They could never see the bazooka shots coming because what's one shell shaped object with a fiery bloom behind it from all the rest? All they saw were missiles, and so when they tried to recreate what I was doing to have such a high success rate, they either picked the wrong weapons, or they never used the correct technique. With this, I was able to climb the ranked ladder and often beat the top ranked players in the world. Not because I was a better pilot with better reaction times, but because I played what you'd call the role of the Artist, and I did so in a manner that the mathematicians could not see what I was doing. These weapons were also completely against the meta, with the entire stable of top players often arguing you should NEVER use them. They all used similar builds with similar weapons. So, the upper tier mathematician types had no real experience playing against them since they last time they fought a player with them, they were still down in the lower ranks. ----------------- So, the purpose of that story is to illustrate that while the artist initially seems like they are at a disadvantage, the reality is that what they're doing is just expanding the meta to make it harder for the mathematicians to always have a prepared counter in the meta. On top of that, much like how the mathematicians have a long road ahead of them to figure out what the best possible path is, the artist does too. Because it's not simply "picking something unusual and being good with it." It's so much more, as you can see. You don't need to be a mathematician, it helps, but I discovered my play style early on, as a joke build that turned out to be good. I was just having fun trying new novel ways to fight. As you gain experience, you're always going to at least partially be mathematician. That's just natural. I think you should consider that gaining experience does not automatically make you the honer type, but that honing is inherent to the human condition, even when that's not the focus of what we're doing to have fun.

@@onigojira Pretty interesting history, it tells something deep about the human experience. Thank you!

Mathematicis it's all about creativity maybe you mean the engienners

Well said

@@onigojira thanks for putting a story warning after the read more button :(

You need to know the rules to break them.

while that can be true in many cases there is still is a saying that goes: the best swordman in the world fears not the second best swordman, but that who never held a sword before

The problem arises when something is not designed to be understood, only memorized. Innovators have 100% interest in understanding the game, developing a mastery that allows them to explore uncharted territory (and using that new information to expand even further) - but exactly 0% interest in memorizing a chart of specific, predetermined in-out combinations. They're here to The honer generally does little to no innovating because they're interested in being handed a set of instructions for the best possible way to play, and simply mastering their ability to do it faster and harder. The games that have a lot of room for innovation generally don't have a lot of honers in them at all, and any innovation that happens in communities dominated by honers is either wordlessly incorporated into the META or spat upon as "cheese" or "cheap gameplay". They don't want to innovate- they want to "master" and they can't "master" if the goalposts keep moving beyond their reach. Mastery, as a concept, defies innovation and vice versa. Ask any "master" of something that isn't set in stone like a 20 year old video game and they'll tell you that the biggest part of their ability comes from the fact that they don't stop innovating. That any skill or knowledge they have came about as a byproduct of innovating, not sitting in a locked room studying. Anything from a physics professor to a martial artist - the Honer style of approaching video games *only* works in video games, and that's why a lot of gamers have trouble in real life - despite games teaching important skills and ideals, **things aren't meant to be grinded until you're at the top** and the honer mindset doesn't understand that.

Yeah, I think innovators are given short-shrift in this video. They're mostly depicted as "dabblers" who are always seeking novelty, ignoring the other kind of innovators, like lab-rats and data-miners. I can literally take solo credit for discovering a unique mechanic in Smash Ultimate for Ness, although other innovators helped lab out new applications for it, and eventually top players like Gackt started using it in tournaments. And even though I'm not that GOOD at the game, I never could have made that discovery if I hadn't studied and examined the game's mechanics with a fine-toothed comb. I've always said of my smash skills: "I'm never gonna be James Bond, but I *might* be Q one day (the dude who makes Bond's gadgets)". And that's a side of the "Honer vs Innovator" continuum that Core-A doesn't really even mention.

Yes, which funny enough I feel represents the video as well. Someone attempting to innovate with shallow understanding of the topics they've touched on. The line between honing and innovating is very fine. If you had to define it in this context, innovation would be to hone something that hasn't been honed before. The distinction is there but it's circular. Or if you want to go even more circular, you're honing your innovation skills. Or, If you're honing your skills, you often have to innovate yourself to accomplish that to overcome obstacles along the way. You can never truly seperate them. His definition of innovation which you and other commentors have touched on is pretty much "too lazy to learn so I jump from one game to the next hoping the next one I'll magically be good at" or simply "has no interest in improving at a game and want to press buttons randomly till something happens". Which is an insult to the concept, and to someone who would go as far to identify with it. I am being overly harsh but I am really surprised with the outpouring of positive comments for this video. It seems they've been expecting it for a long time. While to me it feels like another cliche mainstream pandering video "What type of person are YOU?! comment in the videos! " "It's not that you are bad and don't put in effort, you're just a unique innovator!" Which a significant amount of the casual populace would identify as (and there is no shame in that) but it's not a real distinction and it's not truly worthwhile. The discussion is meaningful, but the weird attempt to frame it as a personality type thing was far too hard for me to ignore.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

It's the difference between "I can't get in on him!" and "I don't want to get in on him!"

same, helped me find out a little more about myself lol.

Please explain how to I have been meaning to try this game for ages.

Did you get it? How's life on tekken

@@viridibusoccult115 I did get it, yeah. Was very fun even though I didn't understand a thing of it, it's so different from the other FGs I play. plus my laptop broke and I haven't reinstalled it on my new one since I didn't want to have to do the 10 hour download again, so I haven't played it in like a year and tbh probably won't for a while since I don't have any other freinds who play it. Was very fun though, it's something that if I do redownload I want to at least attempt to learn properly. Maybe in a couple years if Tekken 8 goes on sale (and they add lei)

stop

@@jadonplox no u

On some level, honing and innovation can be found in most singleplayer experiences. Honers in singleplayer games are usually speedrunners or minimalist challenge-run types. Innovators will usually be fond of more elaborate challenge-runs that present situations, where you need to find new solutions to problems. More importantly though, innovative types tend to be the kind that like glitches and exploits, either hunting for them from the game or finding interesting applications for such.

Yes! Playing through this now and priding myself on how I seem to solve most puzzles and encounters not at all the "correct" way but still very effectively! Lol

I bet it hurt your brain to think that far back.

There's a story here, excuse me for asking, but who are you?

Same question as Fera Dose! Your comment seems fascinating and I absolutely want to know more about what you're talking about, if that's okay with you.

I also want to see the answer for the guys above.

Also mad respect for showing IRON MAN perform PROTON CANNON. "WITH MY COMMITMENT" ***INFINITY*** "PROTON. CANNON."

Yup

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

Difference being is that eventually, in physical sports, your body can't keep up anymore and you retire. Obviously people retire in esports too but usually not for physical reasons. Theoretically an esports career could last a lifetime

@@sizzledan31 esports players will eventually need to retire due to things like reaction speed worsening over time... Or melee players destroying the ligaments in their hands

Theyre not on the same page then. Breaking apart mastery via randomness and live autohandicap would be required. "on the same page" How!? "but the rules are the same" And everyone's skills are the same!?

@@sizzledan31 players have retired due to worsening reaction time.

very well said

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LmfbeqOUcbc.html

The primer on 3rd Strike parrying and such was so good, I sent it to my friend who I before tried to explain Evo Moment 37 to (which is hard to explain to somebody who doesn't know fighting games how amazing it was). After he watched the 3rd strike portion of this video, he watched moment 37 again and totally understood it. Damn good video.

Sums up Core-A Gaming videos to a tee. Hope you find a fighting game that you find really fun. :)

I'm sure Core-A will be very happy to hear that

If that's going to be a fighting game, I wish you luck. It's nearly impossible to make a FG that can reward Innovators equally as much as Honers, while also maintaining a sufficient active playerbase for matchmaking to function properly for all skill levels.

I was reminded of this at first, but then I figured that the innovators were more likely to be Spike/Johnny hybrids. The hybrids are more likely to seek a good new way to win, whereas the pure Johnnies are more likely to find a novel way to win that may or may not be good.

I don't thknk it was even honed. Hbox was winning with Puff and Armada had Peach. Now Axe and Wizrobe are showing us that Pikachu and Cpt Falcon are legit. However, that still doesn't stop wavedashing and L canceling from being mandatory knowledge.

Melee is the best example I can think of for an innovating fighting game, even though it still requires plenty of honing. (Though you don't have to hone much before you can start low level innovating, which is cool). I remember a quote from Mango, something like, '[Someone] said this shine I did was frame perfect. I don't know what frame perfect means, but I like the way it sounds.' I love how Mango is able to be one of the best players by playing with his gut and his heart more so than his mind (though his mind is quite smart in some ways).

I think that's why the community oversimplifies the ruleset: because there really is so much going on already.

the problem with Melee is the complete lack of input buffer. It makes the things you do have to hone way harder to hone than they really should be, and is the one and only thing that pushes me away from melee and towards other platform fighters like RoA or recently, even NASB.

@@3eve0n agree completely, RoA input buffer and things like much shorter dash turnaround animation make it feel much nicer, especially starting out. And perhaps RoA's emphasis on stage control mechanics that can be used in unexpected ways also makes it more of an innovator's game.

SfV has an interesting idea in that direction. Some of the story mode enemies have very high health, but reverse combo scaling, so they can eat a huge number of jabs, but any bnb will make them crumple like paper. If monster hunter taught me anything, if you combine that with an incentive to grind, even the most casual players will quickly, and almost naturally, learn how to do a fuckin' infinite.

@@RemoteIslandSyndrome I feel like Them's Fightin Herds comes closer but doesn't stick the landing. They use a similar concept of NPC fighters, but they have an enemy whose sole purpose is to teach people how to anti-air, and they explain it to you before you fight them. Trouble is that they don't follow-through. Maybe that'll change when they drop the rest of the story mode.

Its budget and most likely, GREED. Game companies have been on the trend of "creating games with little effort as possible and force fans to give them $$$ as much as possible" for a decade now. Its kinda been the norm of gaming in general .

@@adamh4h4 gotta get those indie studios

Yeah I'm very much the same. It tends to come off as conceited, which it really is not meant to be, but I just find repeating the same stuff over and over boring as hell. I cannot spend my life going in circles. I think it comes down to how satisfying you find perfecting stuff is. Honers seem to get great satisfaction out of this, which is cool. I get absolutely no satisfaction in it at all, and the moment I am not having pure unfettered fun, I lose interest. I'm forever fated to be a jack of all trades, master of none. I don't even care about being really good at my job and likely never will be.

Scales are so boring to practice I agree with you there

To me it doesn't sound like you are an innovator...but rather than you have a short attention span...don't really mean it as an insult, just than you quickly get bored of somethign once you scratched the surface. In many game when you have learned most of the mechanics and concepts, you have barely begun, there is lot and lot of emerging properties and very complex mechanics and many games. If we take the sm64 ABC challenge, the innovator part is absolutly insane, but if you just scrap the surface and just think "oh it's sm64 but i can't press A" you'll mis 99% of what make it crazy, but innovate in the sm64 ABC challenge require effort.

​@@ballom29 That's fair, but by that point one could argue that it has shifted from innovating to honing, no? Even your example is like that: people attempting the Mario no-A challenge will typically have to retry and fail many times and spend hours improving their techniques to complete the level without pressing A, which is very much a honer mindset (perfecting a single narrow skill). The innovator is the one who proposed the challenge, not so much the ones attempting it over and over (IHMO). Unless my definition of a honer being someone who likes to perfect a narrow skill is wrong to begin with.

@@bennemann "people attempting the Mario no-A challenge will typically have to retry and fail many times and spend hours improving their techniques to complete the level without pressing A" Hum , no it's not about doing a perfect execution, in fact for a while the ABC challenge was considered impossible for a human (well you could still have done it with XXX A presses, but that would be far above the current limit) ... until someone showed many strats or alternatives strats were actually humanly possible. (among theses, I would have never expected "scuttlebug raising" to be done by a human) The ABC challenge is more a hellish puzzle, were 99% of the time is consacred about finding how to possibly achieve a goal, rather than executing it (and 0.9% are for cloning or building speed for PU movements ) And it's not set in stone, new strats are offten discovered, even when it's no longer required ...like how they greatly improved the existing strat for HMcM , then found a complete new even faster strat. btw : "and spend hours improving their techniques" lol -> pannenkoek2012 "after all, I do build speed for 12 hours" No i'm not sayign he tried for 12 hours ... raising his speed to the desired number took 12 hours ! Or better, for a very long time BitFS seemed impossible to do in 0 A press, until someone found a solution by the weirdest way possible...he feel asleep, letting the game ran for hours, when he wake up he saw one plateform was highter it used to be....because on wii virtual console (and ONLY on the wii virtual console, not in the original n64 console ) there is a rounding error making this plateform go up a tiny bit more than it goes down....making it rising very very slowly over time ... They found a strat using this discovery...you just have to wait 72 hours :)