Pastor Stephen Baker and Dr Josh Howard discuss the traditional reformed view of Israel as an ethnic nation. They walk through Romans 11 and discuss the concept of "replacement theology".
I have never understood the reform theology view of Israel and I found this helpful. I see it more now as Ruth and Rahab being embraced into nation Israel as a shadow of Israel eventually becoming embraced into the church. Hope I got this right. Sorry if my name icon comes up 2x. Some sort of computer glitch we don't know how to fix,
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
God has always had one people. In the lineage of Jesus there is Ruth a moabite and Rahab a Canaanite woman neither of them were ethnic Jews. Anyone could become a Jew back then if they wanted to follow Yahweh. It's also beautifully illustrated in Romans 11 with the cultivated olive tree..
Christ is Israel. We are grafted into Christ. Out of Egypt I called my Son. The promise was to Abraham's SEED not seeds. Only those who had faith of Abraham were true Israel to begin with. Natural genealogy counts for nothing.
It's good that you guys take Romans 11 at face value. I think the word 'dispensationalist' creates more heat than light. It's not really possible to have a constructive argument (in the best sense of the word) if the two sides are using a word that has both (1) a flexible definition and {2} a capacity to conjour up numerous straw men.
Because people who self identify as 'covenant theologians' mention the word 'dispensationalism' so much I thought I would educate myself on this. The word 'dispensationalism' is a barrier to clear communication on eschatology. I watched a video of an Eastern Orthodox priest (who is a former Plymouth Brethren!) explain dispensationalism to E. Orthodox Christians. It was very helpful and clarified in my mind that according to that definition I am not a dispensationalist. Dr Alan Kurschner in his critique of the pretrib premil view gave another definition of 'traditional dispensationalism'. Again, defined differently, but not me. Chris White gave the most relaxed possible definition of dispensationalism which would take in anyone who has your stated view of Romans 11 (so that would include both myself and yourselves), as dispensationalist. To my mind *dispensationalism* and *covenant theology* are two broadly based frameworks for understanding the Bible. I think that looking at the different covenants is a better framework than looking at different 'dispensations'. But I would look at the Abrahamic convenant and the Mosaic covenant and NOT conflate them as 'the old covenant'.
Sons of Abraham? Cultivated Olive Tree? Israel of God? Are Gentile believers members of the commonwealth of Israel? Who was grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Romans 11? Paul wrote that a true Jew is one inwardly with a circumcised heart, and that circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, and not by the letter? Is the inward Jew a member of the cultivated olive tree? In the epistle to the Romans, Paul writes, “Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” Is the Israel that Paul is referring to, the cultivated olive tree? In the epistle to the Ephesians, Paul writes about a mystery-that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. Is this one body the cultivated olive tree? Jesus said He has two folds and they will become one flock. Is the one flock of Jesus the cultivated olive tree? Hebrews 11:39-40 informs us that the NT and OT saints are made perfect together. Are these perfected, glorfied saints the cultivated olive tree? Hebrews 12:23, in a vision, identifies an assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, coming to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant. Is this assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, the cultivated olive tree? This prophetic vision meets fulfillment in Revelation 14:1-5, in the heavenly Mount Zion; the redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb. Cultivated olive tree? Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 points to a group of people who Jesus Christ has redeemed by His blood, to be a kingdom and priests. Is this kingdom of priests, freed from sin by the blood of Christ, the cultivated olive tree? Revelation 7:9 prophesies this same group, resurrected and raptured, glorified, and standing before the throne of God and the Lamb, from every nation, tribe, and tongue, wearing white robes and holding palm branches. Cultivated olive tree? Is there a spiritual Israel? What do you call the body of glorified saints who will rule and reign with Christ on earth? Are the glorified saints members of the cultivated olive tree? Is the cultivated olive tree the Israel of God? In Isaiah 49 the Messiah is referred to as Israel. Because Gentile believers are in the Messiah, Jesus, does that include them as members of the cultivated olive tree, the Israel of God? Are the sons of Abraham the Israel of God? Who are the sons of Abraham? The sons of Abraham, counted righteous by faith, comprise the cultivated olive tree; they are Jew, and Gentile-the “Israel of God…” All the saints in salvation history… The firstborn enrolled in heaven… The redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb… The eternal covenant community of YHWH redeemed by the Lamb… The bride of Christ. The saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever. Biblical ecclesiology leads to Biblical eschatology. Blessings in Christ, our Lord
I like your analysis. My view is this. The cultivated olive tree has always existed. It is simply those that had faith in YHWH and maintained communion, beginning with righteous Abel. That olive tree became visible (not spiritual) at Sinai when YHWH made a people his covenant people, Israel. When that covenant waxed away we have a new covenant people, a new Israel. The first people to enter the new covenant were from the natural olive tree. Paul however was commissioned to graft the wild olive tree branches that had faith into the natural olive tree. Israel, the natural olive tree has therefore existed from the beginning and it is those that have faith in YHWH. Israel didn't end, it returned to the original concept which is people that have faith in YHWH but that is nor mediated by Christ. Faith in Christ means faith in YHWH and that brings you into Israel.
Thank you for this message, Stephen & Josh. Regarding the concept of Replacement Theology there are really two distinctly separate issues: 1) Did the new testament ekklesia replace the old testament ekklesia? 2) Is the nation of Israel elect and restored to God at the return of the Son of man as King? Both covenant theology and dispensationalism have elements of Biblical truth, and both have grievous error. I believe the Father's heart is sorrowed by sons and daughters who place their faith in ~isms and ~ologies. Blessings
I think the point you guys miss is that you are thinking of everything in terms of individual personal salvation. All mainstream orthodox evangelical Christians agree with your basic position on individual salvation and the fulfillment of the OT in the NT. So no matter how much you make that point you don't get to the point of disagreement with those of us who take God's (unconditional) covenant with Abraham at face value. God's purposes are not *only* about personal salvation. Read the Bible and you will see that when God helped Israel He did it for His glory. We think that God has purposes in world history that are not limited only to individual salvation. God acts in history to show His greatness. God's purpose in history of course impact salvation at an individual level (including for ethnic Israel in the future).
