Stick vs Auto - Real World Test! Back to Back C4 vs 5-Speed. Same car. With Dyno Results 

Same... For 14 years now if I'm goin', I'm rowin'... I currently have5 stick cars, and no autos, until I dirtied my fleet with an auto this year...

I had nothing but manuals. But that changed when my woman stepped into my life, and she can't drive manual. Now all are auto. But I own 13 to 18 speed trucks.

@@mattdee000 I taught mine to drive manual... She's not a fan, but she's been driving a 5 speed daily for 7 or 8 years now. She's free to drive whatever she can afford, and so far, those are how the cards have been dealt.

@@mattdee000 Haha. There's no chance she'll be driving your 13 & 18 speed lorries. My wife is Canadian and she learned to drive in a farm truck that was manual. I learned in England. If you take your test in automatic you can ONLY drive an automatic, but if you take it in a manual you can drive both.

@@TheBrokenLife yeah I tried to teach her in an old 5 speed pickup I had, and she kinda got it. But didn't feel comfortable to drive it by herself without me in the car.

D M Thanks man, less can be more here as well as on track. Please spread the word. Are you a Ford guy or other. All are welcome. We have non-Ford material coming too (gasp!)

Stick Man's Garage I just love cars, but grew up on Fords. Mustangs have always been my Achilles heel. I am old enough to remember when they first came to the dealerships, I wasn’t old enough to drive, but the dark green 64/65 fastbacks always made me look twice. I have a deep appreciation for Mopar and Chevrolet as well. The one car that I wish that I could have back was my ‘70 Buick Skylark GS Stage 1 convertible. Sorry you asked now, aren’t you?😄☮️ ☮️

Absolutely not. We all have one (or many) that got away. I like lots of different cars, and grew up on Chevys and big, torquey GM engines. Uncle Tony & I bonded over torque. Who knew life would take us down the path of torquey small block efi Mustangs

Stick Man's Garage Hey Stick, check out the latest video by REVan Evan if you haven’t already. ☮️

Boostedjasper Thank you, sir! Are you a stick guy or not?

Devin Tolcou We hope you enjoy what we have to offer.

REVan Evan Thank you, sir. Do you have a stick Mustang, too? lol

Thanks for watching!

We have SOME old video we plan to share. Stay tuned!

The Luka Cee Channel Glad to have you with us. Hope you stick around. More to come. Love to see a model if you build one.

Invincible Extremes Muscle Cars Garage Y’all are awesome for saying so. Thanks for watching!

TommyMacDaddy1 We’ve got memories, time slips & old grainy video

@@stickmansgarage9452 I dig it! Ride On !!! Love what you did and are doing!

Yo! Glad you like it. Hope to have more for you real soon. Feel free to ask questions & suggest story ideas

I should have scrolled down I said the same thing miss board.

Thank you, Mike! We wouldn’t steer you wrong. Please pass the word Are you a Mopar guy? What do you drive

@@stickmansgarage9452 no Mopars in my fleet, I have a 3rd gen Trans am and 2 SN95 Mustangs

Thanks!

We’ll talk so much about this car you’ll get tired of it. Well, maybe not. It is awfully cool. Thanks Jeff

andy a Buh-Buh Buh-Buh Buh-Buh BWAHHHHHHH!!!! I love it...

charlie ryan Well, maybe 1 or 2 things... But not on a dragstrip!

Stick Man's Garage 😆 so true!

Well said!

Bingo.

Don't Pro Stock cars run .99 60ft with a clutch?

@@sraldiris they only use the clutch to launch then they just pull the shifter handles.

Yep, higher power cars need fewer gears and an auto. At some point it becomes managing the traction over engine power. A 2 speed powerglide is very popular when you get up near 1000.

Thanks for watching!

Thanks!

jerrytee I’ll take that as a big compliment JT. Thanks!

super stock and drag illustrated was a great mag!

ron monahan RIP, SS&DI and Steve Collison. Both one of a kind

Yeah we need some in car footage the next time you can film it!!

K5WXP I wrote you a nice comment earlier that seems to have disappeared. Thanks for the kind words!

Ray Stang No roll bar, Ray. But I agree. Even with the C4. Need an action cam for the channel

There are actually lots of weirdo automatic/manual hybrids in the world. VW way back in the 60s had one in the bugs. It was the exact opposite of what you described, with a torque converter in front of a manual. Heavy trucks have been using automated manuals for a long time too. You just use the clutch for 1st gear take-off and then the computer takes over the clutch and runs through the gears after that on its own. Lots of neat stuff!

i restored a 71 bug that had that setup, and for big money too. set of breaker points in the shifter worked the electric clutch for gear changes, and the converter let it stall in gear. but that had both a clutch and torque converter...the type used in the elky had no converter and 650 H.P......trucks yep...and in the 1950s chryslers dodge and plymouth had the famous "fluid drive"...they also used them in drag racing in the late 50s and early mid 60s, i believe they called them clutch-hydros. bet uncle tony would know more about that...i only was refering to modern times and modern types of hotrods, like the screamer in this video....but thanks for the reply and cool comment.

@@Imnotyourdoormat I was actually completely unaware of the VW setup until a buddy at work mentioned that his mom had one. I didn't realize they had a clutch as well... Weird... What do you imagine that car would be worth today? As he describes her car, she had it restored and then almost immediately someone keyed it. She was so upset with it that she just stuffed it back in the garage years ago and hasn't done a thing with it since then... Perhaps she should and then sell it off? I guess she bought it new!

1st thing with these cars...they had a horrible reputation as junk....people could not resist riding with their hands on the shifter, kiss of death in these cars. the points would sense the hands on and go out of gear, a few weeks of that would cook any gearbox. the manual even stated to remove the hand immediately after makng gear slection, to not drive with hands on shifter or damage would occur...they,re actually very durable and tuff when used properly. skys the limit on any resto, they,ll bring what they,ll bring...my resto in the mid 80s brought almost twice what the car sold for new, even though my dad said it never would, he loved the job, just knew what bugaboos cost brand new.

@@Imnotyourdoormat As I understand it, hers is in really nice shape other than being keyed and likely needing new fluids and tires and all of that by now... Anyhow, sounds like we'd both have to look into the market to have an idea.

Simpler times. Universal Truth: Progress is not always a good thing. (And human nature is weak; gimme more, gimme more!) Another Truth: Traction is King Associated Truth: Gear is good

Thanks & welcome! Everyone SHOULD use their brain when building cars. Saves time & money, and brings better results. Fortunately the aftermarket has kinda caught up with Ford & Mopar offerings

Maxwelhse Tremec is about 100 lbs vs 75 for a T5. Some autos are fat pigs 🐷 Not the C4. Mine has a light factory bellhousing, not an SFI. And I use an ATI chromoly flywheel. Billet steel stick flywheel & clutch are HEAVY (All this contributes to things we have to discuss in future videos)

@@stickmansgarage9452 Cool man, looking forward to the future vids!

@@stickmansgarage9452 A little more stored energy?

There are different theories re: flywheel energy, and how it compares to spinning a convertor. Short answer: stick transmissions (especially modern oem boxes and aftermarket) have better gear ratios which accelerate the car more easily than automatics (yes, some can be outfitted with low gear sets but ratio drops aren't always optimal). A low hp drag car will benefit from both the heavy flywheel on shifts & the steeper ratios. But it also has less drag in high gear. This car TOOK OFF in 4th. Obviously, it ran 2-4 mph faster (equal to 20-40 hp) with no changes to the engine. and did so in bad air as well as good air. If you watched that 11-seconds over Etown video, that engine combo had no issues recovering on the shifts, and that was the exact same C4 behind a little more hp than the iron-headed combo (Light flywheels seem to work better in road race cars that need to accelerate out of steep drops in rpm. Drag cars work best in narrow bands. That's why tight torque convertors put such a damper on engines)

@@stickmansgarage9452 Aod to t-5 is a weight savings :)

mike gager Actually Mike, this convertor has never slipped more than 3% behind any of the combos we’ve run. I’ve always run this car more like a Stock Eliminator car. I’m all about making ET. MPH is secondary to me. When you see a car run 12.20 @ 112 it’s showing it makes HP, but that’s enough power to run 11.60-70s. That’s an inefficient car. Which could totally happen with a street/strip car. You want to get it home in one piece, after all. With the C4/low hp combo this car ran a best of 11.94 at only 109.90. And it typically ran 107-108 running high 11.90-12.10 My approach has been to hammer it off the line and work to get 98% of what little power I had to the rear wheels

Ouzo Lou Garage Thank you, sir Getcha self one!

@@stickmansgarage9452 I do need to

Everyone needs to. We need to re-energize the revolution started in the 80s

50tussin Me too. Somewhere. Welcome to the channel, man! Have never heard a bad word about your channel. Maybe someday, I can be famous like you!

Me too Rodney. Lotta good info.

black88coupe Thanks. But you’re biased

Stick Man's Garage Only a lot.

black88coupe Which is almost enough

William Zoom Just a tick slower! lol

Light flywheels mostly work best in road race applications where you need to accelerate from very low speeds/rpm to peak power, repeatedly For guys like us standard weight flywheels work better. Some disagree, but light flywheels don’t typically maintain momentum on shifts, which we need more than the ability to rev slightly more quickly to the shift point

@@stickmansgarage9452 What about midweight flywheels? Do you think that’s the best between both worlds?

Me too. Thanks!

@@stickmansgarage9452 Hahahaha..I would think you would!

Well I do get forgetful in my old age... I always wanted to do that test, it was fun, and I thought more people would appreciate the info

Mike T During that test: Factory 91 shortblock, X cam, MILD 351W heads, shorty headers, Weiand Stealth intake, 750 carb Dana 44 rear, Detroit Locker, 4.27 Precision gears, MT 26x10 slick on 10” wheel

The Mighty Mite is a great transmission. 3.10 gears; small shot? 😇 Or did you mean 4.10? Sounds like a fun car

@@stickmansgarage9452 3. 10s I shift out of first gear in about 80 and out of 2nd at about 135, 3rd gear will bring me right up to near 200 it's a road racing car. Not really a drag car. I built the engine to run a 250 shot, but after driving it once I decided it was unnecessary because of traction issues. Je ultralight Pistons, eagle custom length H beams, Hank the crank 4340 stroker crankshaft with enlarged fillets, Billet steel main stud girdle, tfs machined track heat head's Victor jr matched to heads 750 race demon. With regular 275/40zr17s on it it will smoke them at 50 miles an hour in second gear. Lol but for competition I run the toyo r888s, they are an ultra sticky radial but they won't last long.

How much stall? What road courses? Automatics are still uncommon on road courses, right?

@@stickmansgarage9452 automatics are uncommon on road courses I live in New York so I have access to a few I run 5000 RPM stall but the car is only 2450 lb, so when I downshift it the motor really slows the car down. I drive it on the street a lot and taking the turns is a hell of a lot of fun you don't have to slow down much. There's some videos on my channel

Hard to resist sometimes, but transportation trumps ET

Shane Singleton You know you need one. C’mon, admit it

Shane Singleton On the tree or on the floor, it’s just more fun. Thanks Shane, and welcome

Actually, I’ve had this convertor since 1999. It had one stall change when brand new. That same convertor has since responded nicely to subsequent increases in hp/tq & the car continued to go quicker & faster each time, with no more than 3% slippage While both the stick & auto combo were simple, they were effective and well sorted. That’s why we did the test, to see what each was worth; in the same car, in which those combos were already proven over a 10 yr period

That’s what I’ve been trying to say!

And John is still a good dude Congrats on your win

@@stickmansgarage9452 thanks bro your channel popped up and brought back some great memories lol.. You really want to shock people. Do that same test with an AOD. This was years ago also and while it worked great for street racing I lost a full second at the track going from a manual to a level10 AOD w/brake with the best of everything and a converter from neal. Now I did run a 28×10 on a 12in rim and would launch at 6k. I went with the AOD because it was hard to get it to hook on the street back then. Tires and technology wasn't what it is today almost 20 years ago. I mean shit one computer controls everything today including your wheelies lol. Good luck with the channel. I have to sub just for the name alone lol. Not many real manuals drivers or guys that enjoy them out there anymore. Although I'm starting to see a little comeback. Thinking about building something myself and going manual again. My last car had a glide. No where near as fun as a stick that's for sure regardless how fast it was lol...

Thanks Wayne. Keep the fun of stick cars alive

Dan Jones MT 26x10 bias slick on 10” wide wheel

Boneshaker That’s a lotta torque for slapper bars. Gonna be a wild ride, tho! (Might wanna start off slow. Work your way up on the launch rpm)

Dave Newman Line Loc to avoid rolling in the beams on the 2-step

4800 stall at the time of this test. Left off the transbrake at max stall. With the C4 the car needs 400-425 hp to break into the 10s at east coast sea level tracks. Decent aluminum heads (TFS TW, AFR) & the right cam can achieve that. May already have the parts, just need an open track to try it. With a stick, based on the test results here, I’m confident it could do it with as little as 400 hp in good air

Vince P Gall. ant I repeated those runs in the video for just that reason. Entertaining myself while editing. It also saved you guys from seeing my mug

Tony Ray Some have asked to schedule an appointment to pet it. Get in line, bud lol

Joseph Bufano Me too, Joe! What are you driving these days?

@@stickmansgarage9452 Hey..I have a small block 55 chevy/M21/9"3.70s and a 72 El camino big block/ supert10/355s...Honestly i can launch neither.....lol

Joseph Bufano It’s all about weight transfer. Without that, traction is impossible. Both cars have some rear overhang, but the long wheelbases sure don’t help. And the Elco is naturally nose heavy Are they both street cars?

@@stickmansgarage9452 yeah they're both street cars...the 55 was a track car at somepoint had a cage n fenderwell headers..just for trips up n down the boulevards.... when i do lean on the Elco wont go straight and i wheel hopped the axels out of the 55....lol...has traction bars now....lol

Joseph Bufano Live n learn, bro...Live n learn...

I've owned a1988 Ford Escort RS Turbo, 1992 Ford Fiesta RS Turbo, 1992 Ford Escort RS Cosworth and a 2000 Escort RS2000 and also a Mondeo ST220. I do prefer the European Ford's vs the North American Ford's. I own as of now a 2013 Taurus SHO

So stick is faster than auto but what if you ran a C4 against a t5 and had auto with a shift kit and converter compared too a stick with a racing clutch

Joseph Taverna Afternoon Joseph! I’m a little beaten down by editing nightmares, my friend. After 16 hours I was forced to submit to the whims of audio & video files and leave this one up with 13 seconds of blank video at the end. But the audio is interesting I believe. If you guys enjoy the content then I’ll get over it quickly. Off to a good start it seems. Rant over

Joseph Taverna You have seen me sir, have you not? I am the embodiment of the tall, skinny guy. The waving thing, as you see in the logo right here, dates back to something I did with my HS buddies. Long before I drove a stick car. So, it has multiple meanings for me

@@stickmansgarage9452 I hear ya n the tech issues... I'm transitioning to a completely different computer and software setup soon and I'm both dreading and looking forward to it. I'll be covering it on my channel if you're interested.

TargaWheels Gear ratios affect this, so while I expect the Toploader to have still been quicker, it might have taken consistent 6000 launches to do it. First gear ratios between 2.20-2.64 will make it easier to get the car out of the whole vs the 2.95-3.35 First common in modern 5-Speeds - if tire spin is a problem - but it’ll take a harder launch to do it with less overall gear ratio Consider that a ratio of 10:1 is considered minimum for good acceleration from a standing start in a naturally aspirated car Overall First gear ratio w/4.10 gears 2.20 x 4.10 = 9.02 2.52 x 4.10 = 10.33 2.64 x 4.10 = 10.82 2.95 x 4.10 = 12.09 3.27 x 4.10 = 13.40 3.35 x 4.10 = 13.73 Overall First gear ratio multiplies engine torque to the tires, so when you can hook it more is definitely better

Keep watching. We don’t mind! 😃 Yes on 60’ times. Gotta get the mass moving if you want to make ET

60' times also tell you how good your car gets traction. I'm from another car scene, and my slow junk would make you laugh. 2.35 60' 14.07 at 99.6mph. That was from 1 run. I've had faster 60' times but the run has been slower. No traction but I make it up in the middle so they say. It's a stick so add the inconstancy of that. Slower cars toast me off the line usually but it's fun to reel them back in.

Good questions RW Rear gear: 4.27 in a Dana 44, Detroit Locker. Rear gear remains same in High gear (1:1) to match cams rpm range at 1/4 mile. Yes! The 5-speed has shines because of its better gearing. We just wanted to show the actual difference because we were always questioned on what it would be, with no other changes Our C4 uses oem ratios: 2.46 1st, 1.46 2nd, 1:1 3rd

58sportsuburban I wish I had a better STR answer, but I got that convertor 20 years ago (never been apart) so I can’t say with certainty. BUT, it has the capacity to be loosened some, so let’s call the STR “low-moderate” in the typical range of 1.8-2.5 The convertor has never slipped excessively. The 3% number I use is based on all those years of comparing finish line mph to rpm

Brandon Sutton Fortunately no. But this car has no street miles, only race. And those bushings I destroyed? (Twice) They take all the abuse. What little I give up in 60’ not having solid bushings, I gain in longevity of the flimsy unibody. And I save weight. I might reinforce things some day...

In this story the comparison was that the 5-speed ran the same, or better ET at 2400’ DA than the C4 did at 700’ below sea level. We dynoed the car with both transmissions in severe heat (96* in the dyno cell). Had we dynoed with either transmission with mineshaft air (even just 33* cooler temps) there would be an improvement in hp numbers. It’s all relative to conditions

You’re the first to ask. Great question! Going to talk about this more but it had to do with acceleration rate on dyno vs car actually moving down the track

Bob Cuomo Stock 91 short, X Cam, MILD 351W heads, shorty headers, Stealth intake, 750 Holley at that time More on that & future combos coming soon

John Wilburn I’m thinking the same thing

Old school fun ftw!

William Smith We need to keep them alive! Glad to have you aboard. What’s your favorite manual trans?

@@stickmansgarage9452 I love em all, don't really matter

William Smith If I can make an admission - just between the two of us - I’m getting spoiled by these modern multi-speed automatics. But just in everyday cars. Don’t rat me out, okay?

@@stickmansgarage9452 these automatics get it done now, I always knew they would eventually..

Thanks Rob. Lots to digest there. There’s more to that story. More discussion coming

@@stickmansgarage9452 I'll be looking forward to more. 👍

We’re so addicting, right?

HerrPoopschitz Definitely. An adj clutch will always be easier on the tire and make the car tunable for track conditions But they don’t cost $159 like the clutch I used (it costs more now) Frugal ftw!

HerrPoopschitz My preferred approach would have been to invest in fresh slicks - MT 28x9 - and launched all day at 55-6000. It would have hooked more consistently, done bigger wheelies and run quicker. With less work than clutch tuning, and with only the investment in fresh rubber. Which the car was going to need anyway. I’m always trying to get more for less. Can’t help myself

black88coupe You should try it. Auto Boy... lol

Stick Man's Garage That would be a recipe for disaster. Would need some serious tutoring.

black88coupe The Chief is retired. He has time

Woodward next week Mitch

Ouzo Lou Garage Should be there at some point.

Yeah, but the stick is still so much more fun. If you can afford it!

Meh, clutch choice is critical.

tarstarkusz Yes, the convertor multiples torque. This one is on the lower end of the typical range of 1.8-2.5. It is very efficient, only slipping about 3% at the finish line

4.27 rear gear

I’m not anti 6 cyl at all. Finding 300 ci plants in cars isn’t so common around here. Early sixes, like in Falcons, are more common

My guess is it’ll be even better

@@stickmansgarage9452 hell I wouldn't know. I've never driven a E-body in my life so it will all be new lol.

Casey cuda Just put it on the chip and let it fly. Works every time !

@@stickmansgarage9452 I plan to man. I'm going to drag that car hard. But right now I have to get all my panels aligned before paint. I'm going to build a stageV conversion head hemi. I think it will be awesome to build my own style hemicuda.

Casey cuda Build what makes you happy, man. ‘Murica!

Duane Dahl jr Having overdrive has to be a nice addition. Is yours manual valve body?

@@stickmansgarage9452 no. But it is constant pressure, so a miss adjusted TV cable won't burn the thing down...the Lokar cable is a POS, the bracket is very flimsy, and needs considerable attention to keep my shift patterns optimal. With 3.73 gears, the tac is at 2200 rpm and 70 mph!..with Sniper EFI, I get around 20 mpg.

Duane Dahl jr Sadly, aftermarket cables don’t work as well as oem

Duane Dahl jr What year car. Mustang?

@@stickmansgarage9452 lol....1977...F100 step side!

8” 4800 stall from Trans Specialties

@@stickmansgarage9452 could you daily drive it with that stall & the C4?

@@Mawee-sn5su You COULD, probably shorter distances, but with the heat it would generate - and the general inefficiency (mpg) - I wouldn’t recommend it to commute to work

Cars = Freedom in America Freedom is good. So is actually experiencing your drive

Aa Bb How many inches. What heads?

The convertor was custom built. 8” 4700 rpm. Sane convertor with more torque from that engine has been as high as 51-5200 on the launch

@@stickmansgarage9452 Ok, yet based on the numbers did this convertor have a lot of slip? What was the percentage? I guess where I am going with this is the convertor wasnt quite right. I believe there is some more left in the C4 combo....it may take PTC, Neal Chance or Circle D to get it in the sweet spot👍

Sir. Chester McNuts SR. Yes sir, SR, I do. And so do you. They’re pictured on the two log sheets here in the video. Are you watching at work again? Gimme a few, I have to double check the C4 660’ times during the test

Sir. Chester McNuts SR. Wish I could just show you the log sheets here, but the 1/8-mile times went like this: C4 ran 7.57-7.64 DA ranged 1k-2400’ 5-Sp ran 7.49-7.58. DA ranged 1k-2400’ But there was a lot of spin on those stick runs. Out of the hole AND on shifts The 5-Speed really picked up in high gear on the 1/4-mile (less drag internally, gears riding on roller bearings vs turning non-rollerized drums) The C4 ran a best of 10.02 @ 1000’ The 5-Sp ran 9.88 @ 1000’ Stick was frequently .15-.20 seconds quicker to 1000’

Doe! Lol! Sorry for asking a question that is already answered in the video again.

Sir. Chester McNuts SR. That’s okay. I didn’t include the C4 sheet in the vid. And it’s hard to read the small entries for incremental times. But there’s plenty of info there if you want to pause & dig through it

JK You can do it, but I don’t recommend it. Maybe for short distances & as a Saturday Night Special (damn, I’m showing my age) It will work, driven judiciously, but it’s annoying and you run the risk of breaking it if you get sloppy

Stick Man's Garage Thanks for the reply. Guess that isn't for me.

Rob B Hmmm... If it’s stock condition means something to you, keep it. The next guy will pull it apart. There’s plenty you can do to it that’s just bolt on stuff, so you can maintain the stock look (sleeper!) and always return it to its present combination A stick bolts right in!

@@stickmansgarage9452 So up here in Vancouver BC Canada, I find a lot of stuff at auctions. There's currently an 89 hatch LX for cheap. 180k kms/ 111k miles. 5.0 stick. Even has roll your own windows. But it's the worst color combo ever. I'd buy it but it has the one deal breaker for me - has an aftermarket pop top sunroof. I told the guy I'd pay him $1000 more if he gave me the piece of metal he cut out of the roof haha. I can forgive a lot of things, but maroon on red GT interior is a tough call at the best of times.

Rob B Yeah, man. Color combo & sunroof are two big strikes against it

Weight: 3070 Auto, 3150 Stick Best guess at Flywheel HP was 310-320

@@stickmansgarage9452 wow that's fast for that power and wieght I have a 480 crank solid roller 351w set up going in my notch that's gutted prob around 27-2800 lbs I hope it's this fast! C4 trans

If it’s setup as a drag car with a high stall convertor and gears to match the cam/power band it should be much faster. Sounds like you have a dyno sheet. That’s golden info for a convertor builder. With a tighter convertor & modest gearing you’ll leave some ET on the table. Is this a daily driver?

@@stickmansgarage9452 no just a occasionally driven to a meet and ice cream car haha. It's got a 4k stall in it now gonna see how it goes this season hopefully

Yeah, man. We all need to get to the track after this past year. Good luck. Sounds like a fun combo. Let us know how it runs!

Dennis Wingfield Gremlins... Fortunately, it doesn’t impact the message. I wonder how many missed the nugget I dropped in the last 13 seconds

93lx cpe5.0 Vaguely. But I’m getting old & forgetful