I realize it's 2 years late, but my grandfather had been using norton 4k/8k as all of his buddies in the navy during Korea swore they were the best. He swore by them until i got him a suehiro 1k and 6k. The next shave he threw away his nortons that he had been using for decades. He used the suehiro until he passed.
I hear it. I tend to agree with it. Natural AVERAGES a grit size, but has larger grits within, and smaller, and inclusions with edges that tend to rip (microscopically) unknown size teeth to their edges. I also see this inconsistent rating with many strop compounds.. Mfg will often admit (if asked) that it is either an AVERAGE, or a blend of known grits. I now only use single grit compounds. Many of them i get as pure powder from lapidary suppliers that list the mesh size used to separate them. No more inconsistencies and get a more propper progression.
Love listening to you ramble and rant. Really enjoy your straight up no bullshit way of explaining stuff. Thank you for being honest, regardless of who does or doesn't like it. 👍
Keith! congrats on 1k viewer subscription! 👍 you have been a friend even though from a distance , and your words have MUCH truth to them PLEASE keep up the good work! 🤗
Thanks for all the interesting analysis and information. Learn something new every time I watch/listen. So much out there on sites is just opinion after you get through it all. Thanks for confirming the 8K and Norton hone rating - I had similar results but thought it was my technique, understanding and skill level. Gotta try it all to really compare and learn. Keep honing and making videos.
Interesting observation. In retrospect I too started with the norton system 1/4/8k , and found it troublesome and unpleasant to use especially the 1 and 4 k variant. Even after having some success with these stones I wasn't jazzed at all by my results and just chalked it up to my inexperience etc. Feeling unsatisfied I of course seeking shaving nirvana as newbie went and bought a Chosera 1k and a Naniwa 3/8 combo, bingo, now things started happening for me and never used my nortons ever again. Those nanis and and a 12k and maybe a thuri or a coticule thrown in now and then was the only thing I used for years to come and I was happy. Now its become JNats and i'm still happy. Sometimes its you and sometimes its the stone, that time it was the stone. Nice video Keith entertaining a tough question.
Great video as always thank you - haven't tried Norton but you're dead right on the variability of JIS synthetics despite the grit rating on the box, as well as on hardness differences between coticules!
I love my coticule. It's a no name(vein) I bought from Jarod about a year ago, but I get a fine edge off of it. And playing around with mud makes me happy. :)
I agree with these forums. You point out your experience and get attacked by people who only use certain stones from the honing canon. I get it. I want a coticule to go with the slurry stone I've got and want JNats to experiment with. Let's not forget the Arks. However, I try a lot of non-canon stones too. I am trying crystal strata, Zulu Grey and Lydian touchstone. This isn't including stuff I want to try with strops. That's just it. There's far too many things out there to try and experiment with to get stuck into something, much less attack someone for doing something different. There's a guy stirred up some crap on a micro bevel set on a Lydian on a Facebook forum. People attacked him severely. So, he did a challenge to hone their razors free of charge. He put his money where his mouth was. Guys were telling him how he's on. I messaged him and found out only 1 person out of like 8 actually took him up on it. That's all you need to know. They talk a good game but are set in their ways. It's not easy being a trend setter.
I learned(and still do) by watching others and listening to different views and opinions. But I try everything myself, and decide for myself. Not hung up on trying to prove what I believe to anyone else. The evidence of my eyes, hands,ears and skin tell me what's true. That trumps anything anyone else thinks they know. MHO.
An 8k is only a stone in my progression. I personally don't see why a person would want to stop there as their finishing stone. I started with a Norton 8k, probably like most, but now use a Shapton Pro 8k. To me what really matters is the finishing stone to provide the most comfortable shave. 2k, 5k, 8k, to me are stones for progressing to a finishing stone. Thanks for the feedback of the variety out there and calling a spade a spade! I ignore those who think they know it all.
I use a strip of insulate tape on spine to preserve current bevel Scratch that I took it off earlier to see if it would make a difference I shall let u all know tomorrow if I’ve got a face left lol Update I had a shave out of it lol but it was a silky smooth shave but I didn't have any nicks which I'm surprised at I've def still have much to learn
So glad to hear this. I've never been comfortable with my Norton combo. Did ok but the results from my coti are far better. K is an interesting thing. My King 1k feels less gritty than the Norton 4K, which should feel smoother. After using those, barber hones, and cotis, I care less about K and more about performance. If 5k performs better than 8k, the 5k would win.
I still don’t understand the whole natural stone vs silicone carbine cheap stones. I just started shaving with a straight razor and get great results with a cheap 8k, green compound on rough side of strop and finish on the leather. Razor sharp enough to take hairs out of my arm halfway, with good prep I get very comfortable shaves. What would I gain out of upgrading?
Everyone’s preferences are different, so it’s impossible to say who will like what. Ironically, that’s the message behind this video - which is, essentially, YMMV.
You are dead on correct. ?K doesn't mean Shinola. I'm going down the rabbit hole of Arks now after the entire Naniwa stack up. Loving the Translucent Ark. Just dropped some big coin on Dan's Whetstone site....smh Still addicted to your vids. Again, thank you for your time.
It's just a reference point to use when appropriate. If you have a 1k C, your next stone will be either a 2k C or 3k C. In that sense, it is a logical avenue and you can be reasonably sure the 2k is always finer than the 1k - in that scenario. A Bearmoo 2k might not be finer than a 1k C . So, the knowledge has to be used wisely. Problem is, new guys weaponize the term "K" and go off on tangents looking for the 'finest' finisher in the world so they can have the 'finest' edges in the world. But It just doesn't work that way; the term 'particle size' is not as relevant as one might think. Without delving deep into the actual science, as opposed to regurgitating b/s from the "Confirmation Bias of Sharp" website - there's no chance for real understanding or progress to occur. Particle size is a theory - based on a non-existent spherical model and it is only useful to compare within it's genre; for example, 4000x Corundum off the shelf in a mineralogy shop behaves totally different than 4000x Cerium Oxide used to polish mirrors.
which stone do you prefer for setting the bevel on the razor? shapton pro1k (or 1.5k to be honest i don't know why they make 2 so close) or the naniwa pro 1k (should be the same as the chosera i assume but i can't find chosera anymore)?
I use the Shapton Pro 1k for knives. The 1.5k for razors. They are not 'close', really.. I sold my Chosera and Pro stones because of the cracking and crazing issues.
Another spectacular video! Great commentary......good info also....forums are funny, you have people wanting their ego stroked and on power trips. It makes it hard to be open minded when you try and learn.
Hrey Keith I like your style man I only no one thing knowledge is key u no the funny thing is some times people should sit an look stupidthan opening mouth an taking away all felt u no if really don't no the business yer u should the fuck up it's good to here the right stuff u are the man good bruz thanks heaps for some of your knowledge cheers Trev Walsh
I shave off the 8k all the time. bbs no crox. I just strop and shave. no prep with a wash cloth etc. I have a similar experince with coticules. I have many and love them but I struggle a lot with them. very hit or miss with my beard. but I love them so I keep getting them. its weird
Yeah, Coticules can def bring on a love-hate relationship - they're tempermental and they don't always let you figure them out in a reasonable amount of time. The N8k... not for me. Glad to hear someone likes it, fwiw - I wanted to like that stone but it just never panned out like that for me.
I am trying to keep only to the essential stones, starting on the shapton 1.5, moving on the 5k and then I have 2 coticules (one is a small les lat) that I use to finish, yellow side first and final hybrid side....would you still get one of the 8k before moving up to the coti? and would you still go for either the snowhite or the fuji as the top 8k synth?
What I would do doesn't matter - what does matter, is what it is you think adding an 8k to your progression is going to do for you. Or, what you think your current level of skill/performance is missing/lacking. Honing is about experimentation. We never know what is 'essential' until we try something, and find we like it, and then we try to do without it. We try stuff, then we try other stuff, and we keep trying stuff until we find the stuff that makes us happy. The one thing that is usually first forgotten along the way though, is that what makes me happy might not make someone else happy. Don't over think it. Buy an 8k, see if you like it. If not, you can prob sell it for what you paid for it. That's the only way to know if you want/need an 8k or not.
@@KeithVJohnson1 Hi Keith, thank you for the reply. I see your point. Every experience is individual and I need to form my experience based on the feedback I get on the stones. I feel I am missing something between the 5k and the coticule and I still cannot reach a comfortable shave (I have very thick and sturdy facial hair so the edge really needs to be as sharp and keen as possible). I am considering getting the Fuji 8k after having seen your 8k comparison video. However I am very fascinated by natural stones and I am wondering if the Tsushima Surgical Black nagura would work in my progression between the 5k and the coticule. In case I want to buy it, do you ship to the UK?
@@OGianmarcO I do not ship internationally, no. 99% of the time, when someone seeks more sharpness, I tell them they probably need to revisit their bevel setting proficiency, not upper midrange or finishers. Most 'sharpness' is developed between the 1k and 5k, and that is where most people's issues lie. Just food for thought.....
Keith great stuff, I an not understand the deal with Nortons, my biggest issue is how much you have to lap them to get to any usable material. The only way I could get any type of usable edge was to use Green Cromox. I went from the Norton to the ILR 1k and finisher, which puts a much better edge then norton period. I have since gotten a Coticule and Ozuku Asagi Koppa. I simply don't under stand the whole business of starting on synthetic stones. Naturals are not that complicated.. Plus who wants to buy a $90 stone and lap 3-5 millimeters off the stone you just bought. Great video!!!
Maybe, I am not saying the stone doesn't have its place, but there are just better options out there. It just seems there are too many variables for failure for the new guy.
I can’t stand the Norton 4/8. The 4 is rough as hell and the 8 feels smooth but either way I just hone to feel and move on to finishing stones like my jnat or ark. I don’t really pay attention to what norton says their grits are, I just hone to feel and move on lol. I kind of treat them like natural stones as in no real grit size.
I knew you were going to make a video out of that 8k post hahaha! You know... i owned a 4/8 norton and i just hated the feel of it! My 3k and 8k superstones work so great for me... i like the softness of them... ive thought about getting a 5k and the snow white but its a want more than need... all the naturals keep me away from synthetics... ;) Great rant! A tad long! Hahahaha! But good stuff
There were a few different events that brought this video to fruition actually, but yeah, that was the deciding factor. Yeah - needs vs wants, that is always the battle now isn't it? Lol.
Keith V. Johnson it boggles my mind why people constantly protect and argue about products! I see it in the gun community as well! Its as if they designed and built these stones with their hands and they need to protect their reputation! Lol
Honestly I sold my norton 4/8 k combo bought a king 4/8 k and liked it way better I have a ceramic 8 k that's harder then my translucent ark but I still dnt shave off it just sharing 🍻
I only sharpen chisels plane blades and marking knifes and I use a king stone and been using that for year or two all these different stones theres a stone for everything how do you select your stones
I've been using that Snow white 8K for years in my Chosera progression, absolutely love that stone, I go Chosera 1K, 3K, 5K, Snow White 8K, Naniwa 12K, finally Suehiro Gokumyo 20K.
Kieth I'm please to see another who also who gets on very well with the Snow White 8K, I think it's a stone that many straight razor honers totally overlooked because it didn't belong to a group progression, like a stand-alone rogue stone.
Back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, most straight razor honers were first introduced to the Norton combo stone and when that got old they turned to the Super Stone set from Naniwa. At that time - the Chosera stones were looked upon as being ridiculously expensive and a waste of money. It was the well practiced members of the knife community that taught me about the advantages of the harder Chosera and the mysterious Snow White - many from that old crew found it to be a worthy rival to the 10k Chosera. My own testing proved that to be true and I also found it to be an equal or marginally better than the 10k SS. Years later I found out that the guys in Japan that take 2 µm shavings off wood planks with their hand-honed Kanna blades had tested and proven the SW to be superior to the 10k SS also. In recent times, the Nani Fuji 8k is the current darling, proving to be even a bit better/finer than SW. But, I still prefer the SW because it's harder and I like the feedback better.
Thanks Keith for the info regarding the Nani Fuji 8k, I'm a time served Carpenter Joiner, and many years before I started using restoring and honing razors, I was honing plane irons and chisels, that's when I first used a Japanese synthetic hone, until then it was all about old Indian oil stones and you would rarely ever venture above a 1K stone.
Better than the Snow. OMgolly I might have to go shopping. For the beginners there is forty years of history discussed. The video covers old answers mixed with the new answers. At one time the Norton combo was the only game in town. The Belgian water stones can give a shaving edge hard to beat if you get a good one that likes your razor. The last generation of Japanese hones are crazy good but the buyer would do well to stick with a progression from the same maker. The only standard that matters is the shave test: your razor on your face.
To do the google search thing "Naniwa Gouken Fuji 8000" vs Naniwa Snow White Junpaku 8000 Grit Waterstone today the SW is slightly more expensive (for good reason) and BTW if you cannot find Chosera the new Naniwa Professional Stones are replacing Chosera.
First, congradulations for the 1000 subscribers. (I' m a newbie in razor honing, and when I started you tubing it was only for leisure purposes - tv programms are boring - to watch some 5 minutes videos. Your ones of 30 - 50 min seemed to me peculiar at first, but finally I got interested / curious. Nowadays I consider them as an expressiion of the "meticulous approach" - not said to flatter. Probably your subscribers agree to that.) Second, I did like this video much, but there is one point I can' t understand. From around 44:15 to around 44:40 minute, you mention that you don't like to "have notable swarf ..." at your first pass on your 8K stone. To my mind, it may occur naturally - somme stones have higher abrasive concentration, harder particles with more accute angles, and some razors are not that hard (e.g. below 60 HRC). So why do you consider this as an unwanted situation and blame yourself ?? Probably I miss something.
Not sure how you managed to come to that conclusion but I'm not meticulous at all. To keep it brief as opposed to peculiar; at this point in the progression, you should not have to remove a quantity of steel that leaves notable swarf. It really is just that simple.
Thanks for answering - kind of you to spend the time. I' ll try / experiment to modify my honing regime, so that once I start to work on 8K, virtually mostly polishing work is left for me to do. P.S. "Meticulous" is meant according to my own personnal standards. I only have engaged in razor honing during the last 10 months. For example, when I want to lap flat my hone I use the "pencil grid" method - I only lap-erase the pencil grid once, then I do a few more laps on a slightly higher grit sand paper (water-sucked on glass) and I' m happy. I nor use the "light under ruler" method (although I know it is more reliable), neither insist till I lap-erase the pencil grid multiple times. I don' t have adequate time to do it and, anyway, I can't, thus far, shave-discriminate the difference. I hope in the years to come, that I become more meticulous and more "thoroughly honed edge" sensitive. In the mean time, I'll keep watching your videos.
F.... I shouldn't have watched this video because of people like you I bought jnat and before I knew it I owned 7 jnat 😂 and I think within next few weeks I'm going to own that much cortical too. When I started with wetshaving and honing I was into these forums for information but they just confused me and I never become a member of any shaving forum instead I checked RU-vid and because of guys like you I know little bit about honing/stones and still learning. These same people talk s... about gold dollar, zy etc razors but I find these nice shaver if honed properly
