3:33 "Every game has bullshit. If you don't like the bullshit in the game you're playing, you should find the game that has bullshit that you like." evoMindBlown
A fighting game with no bullshit is no fun, I agree. But what about a fighting game in which EVERY character has bullshit? To me, that's how you solve fighting games. Killer Instinct says hello. If every character "doesn't play KI," then every character plays KI.
I feel like they take it too far in some cases. I had to quit playing KI because certain characters were just not fun to fight against. No one likes a match up where your opponent does their bullshit and you have to hope you get a chance to actually do something.
What were the characters that drove you crazy? I can really only speak to RAAM's matchups, but the one that used to kill me right after his release was Gargos. Gargos's air mobility made it impossible to pin him down (especially since emergence doesn't hit Gargos as he flies over). But, IG nerfed Gargos's psycho crusher so he can't use it to escape a corner, anymore. Evened that matchup out beautifully. Gargos-RAAM still plays out in Gargos's favor, IMO, but it's no longer impossible for RAAM to win. I haven't heard the community yelling about any single character in a long time, either. Makes me think that the game has been patched so that all the bullshit is now "balanced" bullshit (meaning nobody's bullshit makes any matchup impossible for the opponent).
Gargos also drove me nuts when he came out. I heard they patched away a lot of his bullshit so I'm not sure if I'd still hate fighting him. I usually played as Hisako so anyone with projectile pressure was basically a living nightmare for me. I also dabbled with Kim Wu and there were a couple match ups where unless the opponent made a huge mistake I could never touch them. I want to say Fulgore and Shadow Jago were some of the characters that were really annoying in just how well they dominated in their area of expertise. They all have weaknesses but they get to run their gameplan hard and the onus is on the opponent to try and earn a chance to play.
Fulgore and Shago are pretty much exactly the same as they were at the beginning of S3 (maybe unfortunately :)). Fulgore is still stupid in the hands of someone really good with him (but those people are super rare) and absolute cow plop in the hands of someone who isn't an expert (those are super common). Shago's just a scrub killer. He's always been my nemesis, but patience is still that character's kryptonite.
General RAAM is actually really strong against Gargos now. It's 6-4 without meter, but when RAAM has meter,it turns into 6-4 his favor due to Shadow Kryll rush. And even if his minions are out on the field it turns back to an even fight, you can still reek havoc. If you get in against Gargos he can't get you off minus doing his DP, which is easily baitable. Any character that has projectile invulnerability, Jagos Shadow Wind Kick etc. is a nightmare to deal with, same with Shago, it's all about spacing at that point. One of the key things to know about KI, is knowing the wake-up of each character and what they can do, it will help you immensely when you realize on a hard knockdown, Gargos, can only do DP or block. Shago can only shadow dive kick (Which you can anti-air). And if you're wondering how to get it, all you gotta do is push them to the corner, and have them make a mistake, by the time you block their fireballs etc, you already have enough meter to stuff what they're gonna do.
I don't think I've had a worse time playing street fighter than when I had to play El fuerte with 5 seconds of lag. The 50/50 hit me before I could guess what to do
Literally every Super Turbo character except Guile has some BS 50/50 shenanigans, often leading to big damage on a wrong guess with no truly safe option, but sure it's "real street fighter"
Yo sajam man have you checked out absolver? I actually think you would dig the hell out of it honestly. It's a really fucking fun game. Very addicting and it always keeps you analyzing constantly... I mean you make your own move list and have to figure out your opponents moves on the fly... it's really super sick to play AND watch if you know what is happening. The mind games and mixups and just creativity that it promotes is incredible and I wish it does well so we can get more games like it.
You would not believe the amount of OG's I've heard say "X (game/character) is not Street Fighter." So no, it isn't the new wave either. Being scrubby has no point of origin, its a feeling that has always resided in people no matter what game they are playing.
@brningpyre yea its sad to see james cry about blanka when hes been fighting him for 25 years. mind u he has cammy who has historically done well against him.
Solid opinion. I agree,the guessing is involved but it is inherent in most competitive games. Even COD or MW involve guessing what your opponent will do next.
3:28 What's the old saying? "It's only bullshit if it's against you" And 3:59, they all did, but the difference is old heads used to scrap at Arcades over it cause they couldn't handle losing. I'm not saying that's the way to handle it but it is what it is.
You talked about it briefly with For Honor but yeah, the problem is if there isn't BS, if there is an obvious way to deal with every offense, then players will just sit there and never get hit. It's a delicate balance, you have to have characters that can create really hard situations to deal with, but if they create those situations too frequently, or if those situations lead to way too much damage (like round-stealing damage) then that sucks out the fun. There also has to be some sort of reasonable read you can make or counter to the BS. That's why infinites are so bad in fighting games, "don't get hit" isn't really a valid counter, and having the round end because you got clipped isn't any fun.
That's a really good subject to touch up on because I feel like tons of people seem to forget that there's stuff like this in every fighting game. I can understand being frustrated at it but saying that it's un-street fighter or something like is a little off basis. That isn't to say that the nonsense is fair and attempting to mitigate it through balance patches while still retaining some of its viability is totally something that should be regularly implemented in modern fighting games today. But saying something stupid like "This character isn't Street Fighter" or "I wish this was like SF4" is completely ridiculous. Didn't even play SF4, but just hearing about the shit you can do that in game gives me anxiety.
After reading some comments, I'm getting the feeling that it's a sin to be a '09'er, and coming from someone who's first game was SFIV and has never touched 3S, it's like a crime against humanity if I have anything to say about Morden fighting games, just because I started playing SF in a diffrent time period. Regardless Bs is Bs, and overcoming that Bs is what makes a fighting game fun.
It's even better because everyone cockride 3S when it wasn't even that popular when it came out and everyone is just riding that bandwagon. 3S was mad unbalanced and people talk like it's the best thing in the world lol.
Tony Peluso I have. My first fg was soul calibur 2 and I'm not pointing fingers, people need to realise that sfv is its own sf. It won't be for everyone and people need to understand that when playing it.
As someone who played during the og and dark age era, every game since sf4 feels so much more sterile and controlled compared to older games lol. Older games were wild and weird as fuck
100% agree. ST had some crazy BS. As you mentioned, Vega in ST was basically get knocked down and then 50/50 guessing sides after that. O.Hawk, when played by someone like Damdai, is to the point where if you get knocked down in the corner, you have to hope for an execution error or you're screwed no matter what. Today's fighting games are generally so well play tested and so dynamic with updates and fixes that, compared to the 90's and early 2000's, they have ten times less bullshit than before. No mechanic is unintended anymore, with very few exceptions.
I think fighting games are constantly evolving and just some people have a hard time evolving with it. Fighting games gotta balance casual play and competitive mechanics to stay alive. Not to mention make it enough of a spectacle to grab the eyeballs of people other than pro players.
The problem is that the majority people that are entering major tournaments and... "ARE NOT WINNING!!!" which is the majority of the players btw because only to 8 are considered winners then those 92% are the ones that are complaining about the Fighting game that they're playing all the time because they cannot win a tournament. Yet make up for the vast majority of the complains. The pool for losers is always bigger than the pool of winners which makes sense why now days they're voices are heard loud and clear.
The whole Guess Fighter V type memes are perpetuated by new younger players that have too much ego to admit that they are trash at the game. It's all deflection of their own lack of skill. The "git gud" mentality is dying, instead 16ers choose to circlejerk each others' hate for Capcom and call the game shit.
Perhaps. I have a strong feeling that a lot are younger guys pretending to be "old school" or "arcade OGs" for internet credibility. Either that or, like Sajam points out, their memory is absolute dog shit and can't recall all the cheap shit in ST, CVS2, etc.
John Rivera don't lump me in with with that crowd I'm still relatively new to both SF 4 and 5. New to rank and I am getting a hold of the feel of both games. The younger people can still learn how to play better and the older crowd needs to stop making excuses for why they get bodied. I think it's just that simple, I understand that no one is ready 100% of the time and there can and will be lag issues that's fine we all go through this type of shit it becomes the norm we move on and go at it again. Half of these people you will never play again god forbid you don't run into the same dude that knows your tech and your game. I think it shows the strength of someone who knows where they fucked up and to try and not do it again cause we tend to be creatures of habit anyway so you understandably get stuck into that mentality that it'll work for everyone you come across until he snuffs out your attempt. You don't have room for error once that happens you're brain might tell you one thing but your body just won't communicate well you feel like a dumbass, people end up losing and stop playing call it quits call it trash and just shit on it without even trying to look back at the loss. I wanna know how many people actually record this shit for reference? I think getting bodied in any game in anything in life in general is a given part of the reality it's part of competition it's part of what makes you a stronger more wiser human being you are not always going to be comfortable and it's going to hurt you truly have to adapt on the fly. If you're going to choose to pick up the game and play it there's no time to bitch and moan you now have a job to do and that's to body the people in your way. Knowledge is key but putting it into application yeah it gets complicated you get annoyed and nervous and you die this has been happening over and over and over and over again what's the 50th time going to do to you? "A thousand battles. And, a thousand victories. Know Thy Enemy" that's what I truly believe in whatever game you play you to know you're options like the back of your hand you need to know what you're willing to do and try not to be obvious about it you need some real damn enthusiasm for these type of games dont be a LTG
When it comes to SF4 I feel like it was a but easier to deal with mix ups purely because of the defensive options. Fuerte's main mix up tool was the Tostada Press which was susceptible to focus attacks, then he had to do fajita bomber to counter the focus. I feel like laura and mix up characters in SFV get so much more hate because there's less ways to defend against them, especially grapplers, they're pretty strong in SFV compared to 4.
Yeah, and all the bullshit option selects SF4 had. Crouch teck being the main one. Makes me wonder what would SF4 look like if they took it out plus the invincible backdash. I’m guessing it would look more like SFV.
sf4 defense spoiled all the people that started with it. in st all u could do is either block or reversal and that reversal was tight with an accurate input(non of this mashing the corners of the stick dp bs).
Virtua Fighter 5 FS has character gimmicks but it's about the player more. VF only has bullshit if you let it be. The system is really honest and literally every situation has an answer.That's why scrubs don't stay long. If you fight a scrub, all you need is Jab, elbow, 2P/down punch and throws.
I only use that therm "doesnt feel like a sf character" to characters with weird designs. I think the sf iv juri han and c viper look and play more like something from a snk old game than a capcom game, with fireballs that have weird arcs and dont go full screen, strange cancels, exageratted animations etc etc
They were put in to feel like SNK made them I'm pretty sure, I know viper design wise was meant to look like a KoF character. Because no matter what you think of KoF as a game its always had street fighter beat in style
Not to disagree with your point, but SFV is a big offender of rewarding the lucky guesses the most. If someone gets a lucky jump in, that person wins the game most of the time, especially the best defensive option when getting up after a knockdown is "Nothing". If they lowered the damage on SFV, I would love it, but as long as it is as it is now, I'll at most like it.
Don't put this bs on new players, that's just silly. Players like Mike Ross, F Champ, Bonchan, and Infiltration...shit man pros across the world love to bash SFV for every little thing, the new players are just following suit imo. The entire SF community as a whole is guilty of this mentality.
Streetfighter is at its best when characters live and die by the neutral. See Daigo vs. Valle at SCR 2010. That said, there is a place for hype rushdown, but there needs to be creative variety and the potential for high risk hard reads. This is what made Pepeday and Poongko so exciting to watch. Vortex from ST Claw, Laura, SFIV Cammy etc. .. are anti-hype because their rushdown consists of a few relatively safe options rather than the whole gamut of risk/reward. It's why people still lose their shit a little when Giefs land a raw air SPD.
You get punished way harder for guessing wrong in Street Fighter V due to the crush counter system. When you have characters that live or die based on guesses (Ibuki, Laura) it's just not fun to play. Especially when their moves cover all of your options. They don't play street fighter, they play rock paper scissors, and the game starts whenever they touch you.
Except that game also has a HUGE amount of bullshit too lol ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uEA9QSM1BUU.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mpuBAFGI4jo.html
