In this video, we will discuss the 2nd half of the "study series" the ICOC takes people through to convert/groom/brainwash/indoctrinate people into membership. Sin The Cross Repentance Baptism The Church Counting the Cost
You made a good point about trauma bonds. I think the interesting thing about the icoc is that those "friendships" are so artificially bonded that in the event someone leaves the church (as many do) those bonds are so weak the frienships dont last. This is why after I left the church even though I thought I had dozens of people I thought I bonded with and would have lifetime frienships, only a couple even associate with me. The relationships are so contrived due to forcing people to talk about sin
The tactic that has just occurred to me about indoctrination is the constant affirmations beingbasked from the pulpit. Especially when the audience is a little quiet. For example: KMk often says the phrase "Are you with me church?" Other times leaders ssy things like "It's getting quiet in here" "There must be some conviction in the room, it's getting very quiet " And the popular one "Amen Church " or "Can I get an Amen!?" All if this is to gain a sense of DO YOU AGREE WITH ME! Rather than letting people develop their own opinion and convictions!
OOf how I remember these studies. I was a believer before going through with the studies and they jacked up my belief system bad. I basically had an existential crisis for like 2 years. Still recovering from all the manipulation. I never ended up joining the church or being baptized so we were going back and forward with these studies and having fake friendships where they were manipulating my emotions for a long time smh. Asha gives me so much hope again when she reiterates how they distorted scripture and how what they taught is not the truth. and Nikita is so real she sees everything she knows exactly what happened word for word and she’s calling it all the way out. They is extremely validating for me. I feel like I am deconstructing these studies with you ladies didn’t know how much I needed that 😭 thanks for doing this.
Nikieta...I really just wanted to give you a hug. I am SO SORRY that you went through that. I suffer from PTSD and depression and I KNOW that I struggled intensely while in the ICOC, but I didn't want to be told that I needed to just pray or that there was some sin or that I was self-focused. I know now that it's deeper than that and thankfully, I have been able to get the help that I needed. I applaud you and Asha for sharing your experiences.
I love this series. It’s wild hearing the studies from my new perspective and being able to clearly see the ways in which I was manipulated. I was a perfect target: a depressed 18 year old college freshman that believed there was a God and came from a Christian background but had no knowledge of the Bible. And for the 5 years I was in, I wrestled with the cognitive dissonance of feeling like something wasn’t right but not having the words or psychological background to articulate it.
The biggest challenge I had doing the studies with people was it already presented a works based system. That one had to meet a certain criteria to be baptized. This worked for some people but not for many. I never felt that way with the people who studied with me. It only got weird when an evangelist became included. Because one had to complete a study series also took away the sincerity of the people in the studies. If someone wasn’t getting it, or agreeing exactly how they we’re supposed to (negotiable principle s) not core doctrine topics, you could always feel the frustration and lack of patience usually from a leader. It was really sad how people were turned away, written off because someone in “authority “ didn’t think they were ready to be baptized or restored. Ironic because they didn’t even take the time to understand the situation or the person.
They never had any intention on understanding the situation. You must: 1. Bring value due to your status (which makes you likely to recruit others more easily). These are the people who get away with more. Or 2. You are moldable and completely controllable (agreeing and seeing things exactly how they want you to). If you don't possess either of these things, you don't become a member of this place.
Another issue was just the lack of application and understanding of biblical scriptures. Mix in the legalism and it’s not going to turn out well. I still the think the study series was a good tool, but not the end all of a requirement. Just cover basic principles and let the spirit do its thing not anyone else.
In watching this episode, I am starting to realise something. Being made aware of our sin by the church (often constantly) it keeps us in a state of guilt and beating ourselves up about it instead of understanding the true grace of God. I'm finding that the more I understand God's grace, the less I am sinning and just don't need to, but the more I feel guilty I am sinning, the more likely I'll keep sinning!!! Sorry for being so religious about this. I'm just realising how misleading the church is with this study and many other indoctrinations.
36:12 Reminds me of how I feel that we were *taught* to struggle. Case in point/STORYTIME: Prior to me getting baptized, I was walking back to my dorm room from lunch with some mutual friends of my roommate and I. I see this girl walking towards us. She was what most of my fellow black men would consider "thicc in all the right places". White tee, pink snakeskin pants with a matching bandana/head scarf, and a tongue ring. I was just starting to break out of my shy, no-game-having shell and had remembered how my roommate (happily taken at the time but he was very charismatic and the ladies LOVED him) would just genuinely smile smile and say hi to women as they passed, and they all responded positively. So I smiled and said hi to her. She genuinely smiled and said hi in return. I was like "OH SNAP... DID THAT ACTUALLY WORK?!?!" Fast forward to a month or two after I got baptized. I'm walking to my dorm from lunch on the same path, but this time with brothers. I see the same girl, wearing the same exact outfit. My taught-to-struggle azz didn't even look at her. I looked down and away from her. We all were trained to make things weird AF.
Yep. That always amazed me. They go through all the trouble of stressing how urgent it is to be baptised for the forgiveness of sin and yet say, oh no wait! You need some more understanding first or you are not really! Who are they to even make that call? But the thing is, why are you delaying person in the first place? That's like a Fireman saying to someone trapped in a burning building saying 'wait a moment, I need to make sure you REALLY want to be rescued before I risk my life to save you! Absolutely ridiculous
After growing up in the traditional coc and then getting into the icoc, I really love this series. I do believe in a creator and I believe in Jesus, but I think the bible is a tool to control people. I find it strange that although Jesus said Peter was the rock on which his church was built, the new testament is mainly written by Paul. Modern day Christians follow a pauline doctrine. I'm supposed to believe that the literal son of God,forgot to give a ton of instructions to his actual apostles before he ascended? Paul was a roman and romans were all about controlling the populace. The apostles didn't accept Paul and they are pretty much never mentioned again after Paul shows up, which was a decade after Jesus died. Basically, I don't trust anything written by Paul. I try to follow Micah 6:8 "And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God."
A lot of talk being like Peter form the Bible and letting brothers and sisters down. I got really depressed hearing a brother hung himself over a sister told him something to make brother suicidial. I was afraid to share my faith with others about how great Icoc can be.I got many help by Jose JIMIEZ of my depression and suicidial . I think back I am glad I left the icoc.
You are absolutely correct. I NEVER signed up for Special Contribution and it wasn't even a thing when I joined as far as I recall. You are also right that it is not a scriptural matter or has anything to do with our heart, it should be optional. What's more is who gave set the cap on how much to give? On what basis did you make that decision? It certainly wasn't from God!
7:30 - Yes the Myers Briggs thing is real! It was a study done by an ICOC researcher a while back, closer to the 2000's. I can come back with a reference, but its absolutely in a book somewhere. I think I heard it in a podcast, possibly "Truth Trauma Theology"... I am thinking episode 66, as that looks familiar. But I've heard it a few times. And I have also stated myself that I am sure that my enneagram 2 is purely trauma related, as its a "helper" which yea, I guess I am sometimes, but I don't think I would have those instincts without years of people pleasing and discipleship down my throat. Its hard to tell now, since we were converted as 18 or 19 year old kids, how much of our personality is genuine vs curated.
Interesting point here about the 10,000 men against an army of 20,000 men is that didn't David and number of others in the OT go up against immeasurably large armies and yet still managed to defeat them?
about the prayer part on campus I remember we where force for a while to go and pray early in the morning in campus. I remember one day I had so much homework and decided to go to the gym early instead so I can focus on my studies during the morning and early part of the afternoon. In the evening I would hangout with some friends at the University, I remember the campus leader telling me how selfish I was for not being at the prayer walk. Also if those people I hangout with have decided not to follow Jesus then I should give up wasting my time with them, that is when I figured out to them its only about numbers not getting to know people or really hangout with them. About special contribution its a whole different story, I remember they would make us do pledge cards and turn them in. When you would not give your part they would put on the spot in front of the whole congregation during midweek.
3:01:25 Despite the fact that we're supposed to give what we've decided to give, I was still pressured to give more. When I first got baptized, I was a jobless college freshman w/ no income. I always thought your giving was based on income (10%, right?), yet I was still asked to pledge a certain amount every week. And when I told them my initial pledge, my ministry leader told me (in kinder, more tactful words) "Meh, that's not good enough. Try again." And I was also encouraged to work odd jobs around the kingdom to make my contribution (or "contro"... gotta love how we over abbreviate everything) money. In hindsight, I'm like, why tf am I working just to give $ to the church?!?!
1:44:00 This is the equivalent to a job hearing you say I'm sick/I'm snowed in/I had an accident last night/etc and and still replying "Soooo... you still comin' in today though, right?" lol
Now this one is interesting. "...they gave to everyone who had need..." Funny how THE ICOC/ICC never did that! Rather, they demanded we sacrifice for the Special Missions contribution for evangelising the world...Ahm....and....?
34:10 Maaaaaaan LISSEN. I attended my first disciple wedding not too long after I got baptized. I had never kissed a girl nor had a girlfriend at that point, and hadn't had a real date until the ICOC. When I heard them announce that this couple was kissing for their first time, I was SHOOK. I was like, "Y'all really tellin' me I gotta wait until I'm MARRIED to get my first kiss?" I was totally ready to save myself for marriage (I was a virgin as well) and felt no shame if anyone asked me about it, 'cause it's in the Bible. But I woulda felt weird as hell trying to tell someone "Yeah, I'm (insert current age) and I've never kissed a girl 'cause my church unofficially doesn't allow it." I was 29 before I ever kissed a woman on the lips, and it's a story I've never told anyone in the ICOC 'cause I sure woulda gotten severely rebuked.
This is a potentially triggering scripture. Usually, the church simply equates bearing fruit to making disciples (says nothing about fruits of the spirit). However, in vs 9 I nothing it specifies GOOD FRUIT. So based on their general understanding of fruit=disciples then if I meet someone who gets baptised and the end up 'falling away' is that classed as BAD FRUIT? So guess what? I'm going to HELL!!! I hadn't seen this until now, but have over the years come to realise that fruit is not strictly making disciples!
😂😂😂 @ the morning prayer that could have been an SNL skit. And then he “didn’t make it!” 😂😂😂 Were members rebuked for failing to get an almost-member baptized?
The icc study I did was like this but the icoc study was not . (As of 2019 in my area) Kip mckean is really the one behind the First Principles studies so anywhere that is still practicing his discipleship method practices this way. The studies actually shape the whole culture of the church so they aren’t really exaggerating about how serious that are taking these Bible interpretations. I would look up the history of icoc and icc so that you can know when things changed and how they changed. (If you don’t already know that is) Not all icoc congregations practice the same thing since each church has a level of autonomy after Kip left leadership (or after the Henry Kriete letter) but ICC rejects the idea of autonomy so they can have one central leadership under Kip’s authority.
So absolutely yes, many congregations are still using these 'First Principles' Studies, even today. My parents are still in this group, and they have the first principles book on their table every time I come around, in the year of 2023.
Did you learn something different in your studies? Not talking about the scriptures that were used, but in general? Were you not taught to *really truly repent*, make disciples (because that's real discipleship), get baptized for *real this time*, and become part of the body making you finally part of God's real Kingdom? What we are doing here is using our experience in studying the Bible for decades to expose the doctrine of icoc and how they think. Even though there are some variations in icoc, the general doctrine is still the same. And yes my church in particular, where the ACR region leaders are, are definitely still doing studies this way.
@@AshaGlenn it was interesting for me I didn’t know that the church I did the first studies with were and icoc people until after meeting the icc group. There were some similarities like the way they set up studies with 2 people (one teacher 1 note taker) and their goal to baptize. They also didn’t believe in all those other denominations and they put emphases on the following the bible. but when I was studying with the icoc group they seemed to have remixed or free styled the first principles study. They never introduced the idea of me not being a Christian, just what baptism meant to them and why they thought it important to claim that part of the faith. The told me baptism joins me to Christ, his body and the rest of the church. Idk if that church doesn’t associate much with the rest of the churches but I am still on great terms with several of them even though I never got baptized or joined their church. They also all have personally endeavors they do whether in sports or music or fashion that isn’t necessarily connected to the church group but are Christian based. they did just recently attend a icoc conference with Many of the other icoc churches there and I can tell some of them have a little more zeal than before. But that was my first experience with a former Kip mckean group. I was going to let them re-baptize me because I felt a level of autonomy and ownership of my faith but then Covid happened and I didn’t do it and it wasn’t a big deal. I was still cool with everyone and there was no pressure. No one ever brought up my studies again. a year later I met the icc people and their studies were hard core first principles to a tee and that’s when I decided I wouldn’t get baptized because they were trying to get me to denounce my faith to be saved by them. I knew they were trying to manipulate me to do it because I knew my word at this point and we argued a lot about our theological stances. I figure we could still be friends but that was a mistake keeping that door open because I felt like I was being bullied psychologically. i even flew to another state for them. I had to block everyone of them from the icc because of how badly they effected my emotional, physically and spiritual health. The ICC was everything you guys are talking about. And more
