Check out the Merch Store: teespring.com/stores/growling-sidewinder-store Link to Longshot's Channel: ru-vid.com/show-UCszke4C7G1THhlh0puHWZ1g Had some good fun making this video, big thank you to longshot for helping out with this video, who do you guys think got it right when it comes to Supermaneuverability? the Russians or the Americans? Supermaneuverability has no place in modern air combat or its useful from time to time?
Depends if the new stealth figthers does that you cant bvr, or at least not at a great range, then the Supermaneuverability of russian planes gives them an option, that nato pilots dont have....... so yeah i think the russians have made a good choice
Reckless speculation on my part but I think the reason Soviets went with Supermaneuverability because the Soviet air force (VVS) had close to 2000 fighter jet (in 1980s), against expensive F-15s they would take a one-to-one exchange ratio gladly. Supermaneuverability allows you to score kills that an enemy that does not train with SM aircraft would have a hard time anticipating...if it leaves the individual pilots vulnerable afterwards, that is just taking one for the team.
@@johnhermann7498 the problem is the damage to the Sukhoi was on the far end of the aircraft, away from where the prox fuze may have detonated. Definitely looks like a glitch.
I talked to a guy whose dad was a Top Gun pilot, and asked him to ask his about his dad's thoughts on supermaneuvrability vs BVR. his dad's answer was short and very insightful. "In a jet fighter beyond visual range becomes visual range pretty quick"
I'm with kerath I'm a console player since Nintendo's first system and have only played one PC game which was ever quest but this really makes me want to get into this game but I'm wondering how much it costs to get into it with a decent setup.Anyone have a idea how much it would be roughly thanks
@@reggiesterling9394I use a $40 logitech flight stick, a headset and a keyboard. They're < $200. Get 16 gb of ram and i7 and gtx 1660 and that would be enough
That first sequence was absolutely awesome, the information at the start of these videos really helps to give you a real world perspective on the aircraft itself then seeing just how well that works out in DCS, great stuff as always dude!
I'm firmly in the "skeptical about super maneuverability"-camp. There are reasons for why less maneuverable but faster Energy and Boom and Zoom Fighters outclassed and replaced maneuverable Turn Fighters (like the Zero) in WW2 and it seems those rules still apply today. The Eurofighter has the ability to engage targets "over the shoulder", meaning it can shoot targets behind itself, even when flying away from them. The IRIS-T missile and the full surround helmet lock on system are specifically designed for that. Surely other fighters will get that ability too soon and that will make extremely tight turn fights even less likely and less survivable. Bleeding off all your energy for some pointless turn and making yourself a sitting duck for a missile, while the enemy just keeps flying full speed and shoots you "over the shoulder" will surely not be a winning tactic.
I think the best way to test supermaneuverability would be a Red-vs-Red fight of two identical supermaneuverable aircraft (e.g. Su33 vs 33) to eliminate differences in aircraft/weapon performance. You might also want to test different start conditions/loadouts (e.g. Fox3 only or 2v2) to replicate more likely scenarios. Food for thought if you want to revisit in the future!
Honestly supermaneverability is more a choice then a requirement. It depends on the abilities and what you have created, your fighter to go against. I had experience with that in ksp with my fighters, most of my fighters was able to achieve supermaneverability but quickly lose air speed or put itself into a uncontrollable stall. With and without canards. But on one of my single engine fighters, canards improved it's turn radius and angle of attack at low speeds.
That was a very interesting intro, I learned some things. Also, your historical presentation and “talk only” videos are good stuff. I hope we can get some updated Red missiles, even if they are based on speculation or general weapon parameters. It’s interesting to note that the BVR design of jets is often offset by the ROE which have historically required visual ID. Even in a shooting war like DS, we had to be careful, as a friendly with broken IFF or in EMCON (or civilian aircraft with no IFF) looks just like a bandit that doesn’t return an IFF query. IRL there’s even more danger in a shooting war as ambiguity is much greater than games can present. This issue is further exacerbated by extreme range weapons, where a missile could feasibly shoot down something outside of the AO in the case of a miss / lost link / no track / having to go evasive. All that is to say that there’s a real benefit to being highly capable in visual range, particularly if the other side has to close to visual to get a positive ID. I still think the value of ultra maneuverability has diminished over time, in light of stealth and HOBS missiles, where the real value is getting a kill in EMCON without ever being seen.
I thought it was a desynch issue until the tachview. It must be Longshot's new "Spicy 9X" which becomes available only after getting gunned down on the first turn.
I guess the idea behind supermaneuverability is to use it like how you're supposed to use Nitro in racing games. You're supposed to apply it cleverly at exactly the right time to gain a lethal advantage over your opponent but also as a back up system to get you out of trouble if you mess up, much like ABS on a car. Similarly though, you shouldn't rely on it. So if you gain the skill to know when and how to apply it, you could become invulnerable. Assuming you have NATO missiles though, because those Russian Air to airs are bad. And that's kinda surprising because Russians are know to be able to build missiles well.
Id love to see you do a more traditional merge and save the supermaneuverable tricks for a spot in the fight somewhere when your opponent cant predict when it will come.
Here's a case where supermaneuverability would be very useful - when you're in an guns fight, clearly your HUD says your plane's computer knows where the enemy is. It'd be useful if you could, for instance, leave the flight envelope by 5 degrees for 1/4 second for a burst, then return to regular flight.
I wonder what plan Long Shot had in exposing himself like that, not even three seconds into the merge. Nonetheless from Growling's throaty laugh, he must have been in disbelief at the gift Long Shot had presented him with and did not hesitate to take it.
How I understand it, the Russians are taught, is to use it as an ace up their sleeve, for emergency use, definitely not to depend on it, and only to get out of situations that would be impossible otherwise. Examples include jinks, as well as snap shots to surprise targets, such as when a stealth aircraft sneaks up with both being usspotted by their radars, and then picking up the enemy using IR in close proximity.
To be fair the su 33 is a much heavier aircraft too, be like using an f14 vs a hornet. Do see the disadvantage your talking about but there was the right time and place where the abilities do come into good play. You also faught multiple rounds so long shot had time to learn what to do right and what went wrong. If youll were to do only one round, one life you took the easy advantage early. Was a great fight you can see the advantages and disadvantages clearly with multiple play through.
Hey GS, not sure if you have already done this but do you have a simple Dog fighting series ? For example lets take a 1 turn fight. You can explain how you get your best turning performance at X speed for an F/A-18, how do I best go about getting to that speed ? What things to look for when you are win/losing the fight. How to bail when losing a 1 turn fight. Something for those of us that have no idea how to even do the basics of dog fighting.
I've finally bought the FC3 pack, and the su-33 has always been one of my favourite aircraft. It is astonishing! Very manoeuvrable and another planet from the Su-25T I flew before... can't wait to deep into A2A combats ;)
and they were right, the only thing that happened was the early missiles where buggy in its early days. can you recall any gun kills since vietnam? and even missiles are nearing the end of its life, as laser becomes more potent and efficient its just a matter of time when will be the last missile will be carried by a jet.
@@nitonono4143 There have been NO wars since Vietnam in which there was an opponent that had equivalency compared to Vietnam so your comparison is moot. Just because its not used significantly doesnt mean its obsolete. Nuclear weapons are very useful as a deterrence and just because they havnt been used since WW2 does not mean they have no value.
Considering that earlier AIM-9 series before X should have 5 second 20G arming delay for a fuzes, they don't as they will blow anything inside about that 2.5 km range that it takes to accelerate. That is why you go for guns at couple km range as your AIM-9 can't deal the engagement. AIM-9X if having 1600 ft (500m) fuzing range, it becomes then to same class as R-60 was with 300 meters fuzing (900 ft).
I have never heard a more appropriate "Pppfffffff hahahahahah" in my life than hearing an experienced pilot seeing first hand what basically ignoring half the BFM rules he ever learned looks like.
Were you using the Special Afterburner mode of SU-33 during those matches? It is used in carrier take offs but sure helps in dogfights and BVR too as it gives you Double the thrust. For example SU-33 can reach Mach 1.7 in less than 3 mins. SU-27 can do the same in 5 mins.
I generally tend to use the high AoA button as a way to pull the target into the HUD for a lower aspect fox2. It's for those moments you know you can splash the bandit if you can magically whip the nose around. I wouldn't use it at the start of the engagement but rather when the opponent starts getting mental attrition least expects it.
The Su-33 may have more overall lift than the 27, however it's much heavier. Engines are upgraded, but still nowhere near the T2W ratio of the 27. Same supermaneuverability features are present in the 27 as well, so you would stand a bigger chance with that. Supermaneuverability without thrust vectoring is not much use tbh...
Re WEZ. Though your line of sight is 1000 ft the curved tragectory of the 9x is much longer. 3/4 around the turn the 9x is going 500kts+ and the Su is 160kts (t=15:01). Effectively a stationary target.
The big thing with russian super manueverability is based on the fact that USSR expected to be in such a degraded EW fight that they would have to be in close and wanted to win off the merge. Hence why they had high off boresight missile first and aircraft that could get high AOAs
@Grwoling Sidewinder: Just out of interest: thrust vectoring does seem to work in the F-22 in DCS, doesn't it? At least in WVR. Or do you not use thrust vectoring in a close in engagement? (I'm not sure if you do ) My question then is: why would it not work for the SU-30/33/35? Is that a matter of thrust:weight ratio that enables tje F-22 to regain speed very rapidly where the Su's struggle to do so? Or does that have to with the modelling of the aircraft (or both)?
The F-22 doesnt have thrustvectoring either. Allmost every mod use a SFM (Standard flight model) which is not cable of simulating thrustvectoring. Instead all mods have a UFO flightmodel to simulate thrust vectoring.
An excellent analysis of the pros and cons of “thrust vectoring” and “super maneuverability”. Your “victory laughs” are super classic and so hilariously disrespectful to your less than capable adversary aircraft. Bravo!
If you think about Russia's borders, there is a great deal of mountainous terrain and the ability to turn on a sixpence and attack a helicopter is probably what this is for. The ability to enter a valley or go behind a mountain and come out the way you went in for retaliatory strike is foxing to the enemy.
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I'm thinking the "annular blast frag" is what got you - if its close enough to trigger the proximity fuse, there's a chance the fragments will still kill the target even if the detonation is >100 feet. Maybe that "chance" of fragments hitting at a longer range is a new aspect of the model.
realistically, and even on a confrontational basis in game having that ability to be supermaneuverable can give you that one opportunity to land a potential shot when you otherwise wouldn't be able to. That being said, that's if you can get past BVR with modern jets and into a close encounter.
Earliest ive been to a supermaneuverability fight specifically, and since you've made your opinion on the cobra maneuver, when can yoy give us your take on the Herbst Maneuver aka the J-turn? You'd need a thrust vectoring jet for that one. Also, the consensus is that the J-turn is more useful in a dogfight than the Cobra, so i'm really looking forward to you trying it out.. cheers GS!
Definitely feel it has use, just in moderation. Obviously once the opponent has a plan to dodge the instaturn, it's better to do a normal merge and use it to nab some last stand fire solutions. Thankfully it's toggleable.
European joint operation-- French Rafale, Swedish Gripen, Greek Mirage, Canadian F-18, and German MIG-29 VS Two Mig-31's, Two SU-27's, One SU-33, and One SU-35! BVR!!👍
