Submarines v3 - How Do They Hope To Balance This? 

The art is once again great, and I could absolutely see these assets being used in some cool operation like I suggest towards the end. Hunt a convoy with some friends, avoiding DDs and Cruisers, sneak into a harbour to sink a target, screen for enemy subs etc. But for PvP, i legitimately have no idea how they can hope to integrate these ships without completely breaking the balance. Stream: www.twitch.tv/flamuu Insta: instagram.com/flamugram/ Twitter: twitter.com/flamuchz Discord: discord.gg/Flamu

Ships: have armor SPECIFICALLY to protect against torpedos. Submarines: No

Torpedoes that can "lock on" (second ping) to ignore a ships "Anti-torpedo" protection? Torpedoes that can citadel a BB with a bow shot? Sub's that can travel at 20-25kts underwater? Subs that can out spot a DD? A Sub pings a ship, but the ship doesn't know it? And depth charges (the "ash can" type) had a kill rate of only 5-7%. It was very hard to accurately depth charge a Sub. But these? Five items right here that;s going to ruin the game. What the Hell is wrong with the WOW's developer's? They already ruined the CV's with the re-work. Now this?

"Torpedoes will ignore player feedback"

They should go back to having limited communication between subs and the rest of the team. Unless a sub is fully on the surface, anything spotted by the sub shouldn't be spotted for anyone else, and anything spotted by the rest of the team shouldn't be visible to the sub. Basically just due to radio silence 🤷

WG: "Who said anything about Balance?"

And Wargaming in a nutshell, the aesthetics, models and textures in general of their games are top notch, however the balancing of said games is handicapped.

Fix the balancing issues before introducing an entire new class that will further mess with the balancing issues. If people hate the meta now, wait until no one wants to leave the spawn because there are 4 subs on the loose...one of them being Russian with torps that travel Mach 2.

Honestly: Carriers, carriers are the answer. Planes were one of the best counters to early subs. Just give carriers, the guys that have no real pressure to begin with an anti-submarine feature that control just like dive bombers but with depth-charges. That way it is not solely n the hands of the destroyers who do already have enough to deal with. Also give battleships sea-mine deployment consumable that covers an area in anti-submarine mines. They can be dodged by skilled sub players, but that is just it, the subs will actually have to pay attention. Have them be at that "immunity" depth and below that way it is not an instant no-risk dodge incoming fire. All ships need some way to contribute to the anti-submarine warfare, otherwise they can do nothing if all the other classes of ships get knocked out before countering the subs. If only DD can effectively counter subs, and it is very dangerous to do so, subs should not be added because that is blatantly unfair to literally all other ship classes.

What if: - No hoaming torps - No torps ignoring the belt, that's just idiotic - Give subs more-rapid firing torps to balance it Or something like that?

4:24 "...a good DD is just gonna pop his consumable and go deep underwater..." Guess WG finally decided to straight up give DD players the "end me" option before the subs go live.

Imagine telling WG to balance things when they can't even balance CVs and OP premiums... this is just another lost cause that will kill the playerbase even faster.

Flamu, this is the same company that felt the fat, slow, underwhelming California deserved a 4.2 second NERF to the reload of her main guns... I am skeptical that they can balance anything other than their bank account.

I play battleships almost exclusively. I have planes torping me endlessly, HE spammers lighting me up unceasingly, and DDs puking out dozens of torps at me. The last thing I care to see in the game is a ship I can't see (like DDs), firing homing torpedoes that ignore my protection and citadel. When this patch comes out, I'll find a new game.

RIP Mainz, Flamu said it was fun.

Flamu: "How do they hope to balance this?" WG: Don't worry. We will balans.

WG: We are going to ignore the out-of-balance complaints from the players. We plan to release submarines first and like the CVs, we will fix nothing in the future just let it be.

Best mechanic ever: "Torpedoes will ignore target's anti-torpedo protection" GG Wargayming, I guess I will just ignore your soviet game then, OK? A layer of armor designed SPECIFICALLY to protect from torpedoes... Can we have a layer of armor on DDs that protects from radar and hydro then, huh Wargayming?

Subs shouldn’t be able to spot beyond their own detection range below a set depth. Also there should be a timer for changing depth Underwater could also change the sporting mechanic to be a lot closer but giving the option for an active ping that would spot you for a short time (a few seconds) so it’ll update your last position on the minimap but also allow you to see in a lot larger of a range while underwater.

They could learn a lot by playing Battlestations Pacific

Sounds like battleships r gonna suffer if this version of subs gets released, theyre way too broken with that dmg and immunity.

Replace rocket planes with aerial depth charges, then you'll have subs fighting the most powerful ships in the game.

Watching the stream today I though the subs looked incredibly boring and I don't really see them fitting in at all.

Torpedos: Remove the 'ignore torpedo armor' function of getting both pings on a target. Have it where one ping grants slight homing on the torps, and a double ping grants normal homing (like you get with one ping here). I don't see a problem with torps getting citadels, but they should be dependent on where the torp hits. Diving: Have set depth tiers (surface, periscope, shallow and full) switching from one depth to another takes time and cannot be interrupted once inputted. Also have a short time delay before you can change depth again. The only exception to this is when you MUST surface to recharge. Spotting: Subs can only spot surface ships at surface and periscope depths, with the exception of ships dropping depth charges overhead. Subs can spot other underwater subs through the passive sonar. This sonar range can be variable per sub. Pinging: Ships being pinged should receive a notification. The shorter the distance between the sub and the target, the louder the notification. Even offer directional clues of where the ping is coming from id the sub is very close. Possible defenses: Offer a decoy target consumable that can attract homing torps. The decoy could get in the way of a sonar ping, targeting the decoy instead. Have it function similar to Damage Control: unlimited uses, but a fairly long cooldown. Perhaps even offer the ability to choose where to deploy the decoy when activated.

wg balance department consists of a handle of popov.

The CV rework was a disaster... There are a lot of ships in the game who's AA is so bad (Japanese ships in particular.... but they aren't the only ones....) that basically they have nothing they can do about CV's. There are few things in the game as frustrating as playing a DD (any DD) and seeing your bottom with two top tier CV's because you know if you move out of your fleets AA bubble and the CV's find you, your dead. This Submarine shit looks just as bad, so I can hover at 5.9 m and when I see someone take a shot I can duck down to 6.1 and I'm immune (so basically, I can just decide I don't want to take damage, and then even if a DD does get off a depth charge attack I have a "deep dive" that mitigates 90% of that damage too) how the FUK is this supposed to be countered. Does WG not realize that the first thing that happens in most games is that the DD's all run in and get spotted, either by radar, or by CV's and they die... or the are forced to sit back in the AA bubbles of the rest of their team. So the one ship that is theoretically the "counter" to submarines is almost always going to be dead or out of position and unable to do anything about subs... If this goes onto the live servers it will be a disaster... Combine it with the CV rework and you have 2 classes with effectively no counter... really... Lay off the Vodka dudes and scrap this whole idea before the game goes belly up...

I hope they introduce this shit to random battles in the may with the russian CAs and the Victory day celebration stuff. How ironic would it be if the russians killed their game with Vday patch

6:01 "It kinda ends up being this mess where no one can deal with this one class" I am starting to see a pattern here. *Wargaming officials watching the video* Suka, is balanced, put in game, Flamu said is perfect

I have a very interesting concept of balancing submarines. It super simple. Let me explain: Don't add them

They just simply can’t have the lock on homing torpedoes. And nerf the hell out of there spotting while under water

- No hoaming torps - No torps ignoring the belt, that's just idiotic - Give subs more-rapid firing torps to balance it - mini-map spoting only - Higher caliber HE should be able to penetrate deeper than 6m, I mean cmon WG. BBs are defenseless. - Give CVs depth charge bombers as these actually existed and will take some pressure off DDs to handle yet another responsibility this would be a better direction to go edit: oh yeah they killed Ägir recently too. Now its a shitier Alaska.

I found a nailed on, guaranteed, way to ensure that submarine bullshit won't ruin my fun. It also prevents bullshit associated with carriers and OP fictional russian ships. I uninstalled the game and stated game changes as the reason why. Sadly this might be the only way to get WG to pay attention.

Btw as you predicted: Ägir is gettin it's secondaries nerfed and it's main battery buffed. So now it's just like all the other supercruisers but worse. RIP Fun. Enjoy the Balans

I have these suggestions based on the video content: 1. Pinging requires you to be on periscope and to stay on periscope to hold the ping. Dropping below periscope depth for even a frame will cause you to lose the ping 2. The first ping should have a weaker lead than that and should reveal your position as per RPF to all ships within ping range 3. The second ping should do a slightly stronger lead and should not do citadel damage. Holding the second ping will automatically reveal your position to the player that has been pinged and to the rest of the enemy team as per radar. 4. for the 4 zones: A. you have to be on the surface (0m) to refill air B. periscope depth will not refill air and will only slowly consume it and you should still be able to be hit by shells. You should have reduced sight range and detection, but will be picked up by radar/hydro C. Depth 3 will not allow you to be spotted by anything other than DD's, CL's, or Hydro, RPF will work as normal, air should be consumed at a faster rate here you will be hit by depth charges most effectively at this depth D. depth 4 is immunity zone, but your air should run out very quickly (say 10-20s) and you cannot spot anything. 5. Running out of air should cause damage as normal (flooding damage) 6. Air Recharge on the surface should be relatively slow, taking between 45s and 90s to complete from empty, you must stay on the surface for a minimum time (5s-10s) to begin to get a recharge. 7. Reduce torpedo damage and flood chance to somewhere between PanEU and Air dropped torps.

1. Planes with depth charges existed so maybe WG could add that. 2. Flooding on submarines tends to be deadlier than other ships, so the flooding damage on subs should be greatly increased 3.If the battery power gets to a critical level underwater, the submarine must surface. AKA only be able to recharge on the surface like actual submarines. 4. Maybe reduce effectiveness of torpedo protection instead of ignoring it 5. Add hedgehog or squid weapons to DDs I think these might balance subs a little, but WG will just overlook balance. 6. Yuro meme video

You know what they say: "There are only two types of ships, submarines and targets"

convoy is a great idea. WG shouldn't add this crap into the game, except in PvE mode.

Imagine having a game with dds, cvs and subs. The cvs are gonna hunt down any dd and they die within the first minutes of the game. What are the rest of the ships gonna do? Cruisers have to then push in to kill a sub... And propably die because they are getting focused. These matches will be 1-2 minutes of driving, and 5 minutes of firing whilst getting shredded by tropedos. Nice one.

I appreciate that they made catapult aircraft at least able to spot subs, but they really need to be able to damage subs too, with air dropped depth charges. Give battleships and cruisers at least a little counterplay

I'd love to know the release date for these, so I can uninstall.

I would be happy with some kind of special PVP game mode where one team has to escort a small fleet of liberaty ships and the other team have subs, it would be fun if done right. In normal PVP mode the implementation of subs just means there is now officially no fucking point playing battleships from that point on, as if low caliber HE spammers and aerial torpedos/bombs aren't enough for BB players to deal with already.

I want the oxygen mechanics in version 1 back tbh, it's so overwhelming for the subs no need to go all the way up to the surface entire game

Played them myself today and honestly, they are boring af. Think that only sitting around and spitting torps is not particularly funny. Besides a Sub is no asset to the team just torp and if your team loses you go full stealth and annoy everyone. Had one game with a sub beneath the waterline hiding and we hat nothing to lure him out or deal dmg to him… he stood there for over 6 minutes… like wtf??? At least they could consume air or something and have to surface after a certain amount of time that you cant just do what you want if no DD or Sub is alive in the enemy team.

I agree with pretty much everything you said and I do have some possible ideas for balancing. 1. A DD spotted by a submarine outside of it's ASW range should only be 'visible' to the others on the minimap (similar to cyclone spotting). 2. The increased depth consumable should last for a very short time (somewhere between 12-16 seconds, maybe 20) but recharge faster, giving a DD a chance to bait an early usage). 3. If you are pinged by torpedoes, there is a clear warning and you are told where the ping came from, regardless if the Sub was actually spotted or not. Small changes but I think they could be effective, I do think there would still be a lot of pressure on DDs and some more work to be done but it could be a start. I do know that these are somewhat realistic but as you mentioned, this is an arcade game after all.

Has to be a sub-only game mode. Anything else would be totally broken.

Yeah the balance is way out on this? Maybe add Sub hunting subs, add carrier planes with death charges , maybe a consumable that calls in a flying boat with them or something, give the DD's more clue of there whereabouts and add in more responsive counter play such as K-guns, hedgehogs ect, and at the later tiers torpedoes that can home on subs from DDs? . Also reduce the spotting range of subs vs DD's

Alright, to balance a little more and add counterplay, add hedgehog launchers and rocket launched depth charges to cruisers/destroyers, this gives them range to counter subs and lets them aim their countermeasures, making them a little more active. Give CV's depth charge aircraft (sonar buoys would also be good, but those are really cold war tech) and maybe experiment with giving subs deepwater torps and a single deck gun? Not certain on that last bit.

Me when queueing in this patch: CV-32, BB-26, CA/CL-65, DD-2 Me when ququeing after subs released: CV-35, BB-3, CA/CL-9, DD-2, Subs-94

I don't care how chaotic it is, I want zeppilens and manned torpedoes.

Simple solution remove the subs or a load of depth charges that can be launched in a spread all ships armed with depth charges that instant half health any sub

WoW is off the rails... especially since the nonsensical carrier reformation. I'm done.

so the only that is left before release, is that subs will spawn behind the enemies, at the start of the game

Maybe they need to slow down that diving capability and remove spotting for others when under water?

I might just stop playing when these get released...If I wanted to play a sub sim I'd play one of the silent hunters, cold waters or U-boat...

More griefing ingame, are carriers not enough WG?

Four things that could help: 1. Torps: scrap homing capability and ditch the extreme auto citadel mechanic. Make it a genuine challenge to hit targets with your torps below the surface; 2. Active sonar: replace the pings with active sonar, a hydroacoustic search equivalent to better detect things when below surface; 3. Surfacing requirements: Battery power should be drained by being below surface and is not restored until the sub fully surfaces and replenishes oxygen; 4. 6m depth immunity: Scrap and replace with a mechanic similar to the auto-bounce calculation, factoring in target depth, range to target and gun calibre.

To be honest i quit this game because i got bored doing the same stuff BUT THIS is the reason i ain't coming back to this game.

how to balance? 1 - Big Alpha damage need big reload time 1m30 is not enough, make it more like 3 or 5 min reload with single launch torpedo tube so you can choose to launch all your 4 or 6 torpedos at once or single drop them, you need to feel that every single torpedo you engage in battle have to count. 2 - When using reduce damage skill under water, you need to make all your marine brace them self for impact, so the counter part for not tacking as much damage as you should do could be that it pause the reload of torpedo until the skill is inactive (by time or by you), and no ping during that skill to, you are not hunting anymore, you are hiding and it need to feel like that. 3 - Bring back the oxygen meter so subs NEED to go back to full surface at one time or an other, making them not unvunrable the all end-game 4 - Make diving and surfacing much much slower so they can't literally dodge in coming shells or torps 5 - Like carrier, 1 subs on each team per battle and no more than 2 subs on each team max per battle in the MM 6 - Because of dead angle in sonar, when under water subs should not spot ship directly on top of them and behind them 7 - Surface ship should be allowed to ram subs on the surface AND at periscope depth for very minimal damage in return (easier to do if they miss place, camp in the wrong place and don't have the auto dodge button by making diving speed much slower)

What a stupid addition to the game. They could of been working on so much more.

Here's a list of what I usually do when I play a DD: 1. Going for the cap. 2. Trying to spot & hunt enemy DD. 3. Trying to put myself between enemy DD & my team so I can: -spot those torpedoes earlier. -smoke screening cruiser when I see them melting supporting a cap. 4. firing at enemy DD, dodging shells & bombs + torpedoes. 5. hoping for: -my team to focus fire on enemy DD -the other DD on my team stay alive 6. Hunting other ships. 7. sometimes doing some of the above at the same time. Oh look! There ARE submarineS too, that currently not balanced..

Since when has something being completely broken stopped wargaming before!?

There are a few ways to help balance the subs that come to mind: - Remove the ping that turns them into homing then somehow able to ignore torp-protection seriously why have torp-protection if they are just gonna throw in torps that can ignore it? These are WW1&2 era subs, subs back in WW1 did not have the ability to home the torps fired that ability came about around WW2, just go to the standard lead and fire just like every other ship with torps has, it works for them it'll work with subs, or if they are determined to keep ping they need to provide some way to tell ships they have been pinged to allow for the pinged player to take steps to help avoid the torps of possible. - Give all ships that historically had depth charges or have depth charges/racks modelled in game give them all depth charges. - Don't let subs stay underwater all the time, yes when you run out of energy your speed is reduced and no longer able to use sonar ping but a competent player will still be able to carry out torpedo strikes, actually make it more historical when you run out of energy/oxygen you are forced into an emergency blow to replenish the supplies (like the original iteration of the sub testing, I'm baffled at why such a feature was removed it gave a somewhat weakness needing to use your energy/oxygen carefully as to not be forced to surface in a sticky situation) - Can subs be detected with Hydro? - if they can't make them detectable via Hydro. - Give subs an Assured Acquisition Range of 2 Km just like every other ship in-game. - Give Aircraft Carriers a new plane - Depth Charge Bombers only able to be used against subs doing the exact same thing as DD depth charges just dropped from planes, after all planes did drop depth charges historically. - may help BBs out against subs if there is no DDs or Cruisers armed with DCs left. Cosmetically: - Obviously flags & signals couldn't be mounted as 1 they'd be underwater even the nations flag isn't shown in battle like it is in port, and 2 the mast isn't big enough, instead why not have the signals & flags mounted represented by being an on hull mounting like they are painted onto the hull. Just a few ideas...

Here's a suggestion: remove rocket planes, they already countered DDs too hard with zero counterplay. Increase DD damage by depth charges, reduce DD spotting range by submerged targets (small hull = justification)

With Oster and Halland torps and now subs being a BB player is going to be completely miserable. It was already rough with the introduction of Smolesk that singlehandly changed the meta but now not being able to dodge torps since they're homing missiles is even more stupid. They're gonna need to either nerf torp damage or drastically increase torpedo protection of ships, especially BBs but then that's gonna completely make DDs, especially torpboats almost useless. Not to mention being spotted 100% of the time with no way to break LoS like you can with DDs. Games are gonna be CV, Cruisers, DDs and Subs.

Subs are the worst idea and/or worst thing for world of warships...even worse than russian balans

I feel like a great way to balance would be to give all ships depth charges, bbs are immune to the ping effect of mitigating torpedo armour, dds have multi range depth charges (so when you fire off the consumable some are surface, some are mid and some are deep), CVS can get anti submarine dive bombers that drop deep water bombs, hydro has extra spotting range for submarines and even further spotting range if the submarine is pinging, larger the gun caliber the deeper the shells can go underwater (based on if you’re firing HE or AP, so AP can go deeper than HE) and ships get a warning to say if they’ve been pinged but not what direction, I believe this would balance them out nicely. Making them a skill based class so you have to plan when and where you’ll attack from.

I remember the subs being added in the navyfield days..

-All torps are soft lockon, no more ping stuff, and can also double back with an effectiveness based on tier. -sonar skill that can be turned on an off. while turned on, warns enemies of what direction you are in and about how far, using an indicator like you can get on the captain skill for nearest enemy ship that also has approx range. enemies you sonar are only spotted in real time by yourself, all other allies only get updates every few seconds, the farther away the enemy the longer it is in between updates. While turned off, enemies are only spottable by allies rather than your sub, but no notifications are given about your position unless an enemy sub has you in sonar range. -movement between surface and max direct-fire danger depth is fluid, but diving below that has an activation period of a few seconds -depth charges primarily cause flooding damage rather than direct damage, have a longer cooldown, but are active for longer -some DDs are given the choice for deeper charges that can hit even the max depth subs, but take longer to reach the depth so timing and aim is key -Ships have their class-related detection range taken into account with subs, and the deeper the sub, the shorter their spotting range with sonar is, but the harder it is to spot them. -Silent running mode as a consumable like smoke, makes them invisible at any depth below 6 meters except to sonar, but disables the ability to spot with sonar. Firing torpedos has a large penalty for this, like firing a battleship in smoke. -Lastly, most or all ships have the option of at least low-damage depth charges, so nobody can be caught in a guaranteed loss.

If this makes it into normal random games, I am gone from the game.

Super helpful for those of us trying to learn the new sub meta...cheers!

Everyone will be begging to play against a Smolensk instead when submarines launch! There is no way to fix submarines when they have stupid homing torpedo's, Remove that crap or watch the game go downhill further. Every other class has to have some level of skill to be able to hit a target, Be it aiming shells long range at angled ships or predicting where to launch torpedo's at a zigzagging ship.

as a Navy brat and WWII history fan, I have a couple of balance thoughts. First, any ship equipped with a sonar consumable should, by default, automatically detect an active sonar ping, spot the target, and share it on the mini-map. This is a passive system and does not require using the sonar consumable. Second, standard torpedoes change depth to chase targets. For balance sake, torps will adjust for changing depth but not change heading. No more diving to avoid torps. Third, all spotted subs can be attacked by torpedo bombers. At tier six (maybe 8?), introduce ASW aircraft squadrons equipped with torps, depth charges, and sono-bouys. Fourth, any ship equipped with torpedoes _and_ sonar gets the same style of torpedo/sonar homing system as subs. Possibly only vs subs. This is _not_ a consumable, it is default game play. Fifth, detonation depth of depth charges are automatically set to the depth of the sub at the time the first depth charge is dropped. Subs can dive or surface to try to evade, but see the last paragraph. Note that like Flamu mentioned, if the DC is dropped with a shallow setting, they need to be moving at 3/4 or faster to avoid taking damage themselves. Consider giving higher-tier ships a second DC mode with variable DC depth spreads, similar to wide and narrow torp spreads. Last, any ship historically equipped with a torpedo bomber gets the option to equip one, usable exactly the same way as CV based torpedo bombers. That said, submarine speeds should be more historically accurate. Their surface speed should be about 1/3 of their submerged speed. For game purposes, subs should have to surface every 4-6 minutes to recharge their batteries depending on how electric usage on engines and sonar. If they run out of power, all systems except surfacing become inoperable. They can either choose to sit out the battle or emergency surface and be forced to run on the surface until a certain percent of battery power is recharged. Consider varying recharge time by vessel, captain skill, and ship tier. Similarly, get rid of the 'deep dive' mechanic and allow subs to dive as deep as they want, but give them realistic diving/surfacing speeds. Then add crush depth. With torps being able to chase them to depths (see #2 above) diving becomes an evasive maneuver similar to a DD trying to avoid gun fire, but it's no guarantee of damage avoidance. _And_ the sub captain may run into their crush depth in the process - the potatoes will sort themselves out. Flamu, I'm going to post this on your latest Sub video to make sure you see it.

The very moment these hit random battles, my 8 year connection with wargaming ends. This is the straw that broke the camels back. From a DD driver to wargaming...WAKE UP!!!!! But, they've heard this before and choose to ignore it. I on the other hand get to spend my money elsewhere. The end.

Make them surface more and take longer to recharge battery at anything other than fully surfaced?

Cv’s should get anti-sub planes or something

I love the way that you set the underwater sub on fire with your Fuso HE. Makes as much sense, I suppose, as the homing torps, fantastic underwater vision, magical shells/guns on Ru BBs/CAs/CLs, strangely powerful Ru ship lines ... oh hang on, I have gone way off track. Time to have a lie down.

Sounds like the introduction of a new class completelly destroys the existence of another one, DDs will once again suffer a lot...

I think one of ways to balance them is to make pings consume energy and some actions like firing torpedoes consumes a bit more energy to make the sub go on surface more times, obligatorily being exposed more frequently. Or they could just make energy underwater act like a "timer" with only 2~4 minutes duration and recharge more slowly on surface. This could lead to a rethinking on the use of the deep charges immunity consumables to be more useful on escaping sticky situations rather than be immune all the time, making the sub be on surface recharging and exposed more frequently, while maintaining them as a deadly but weak resistance class.

I have full trust in the balancing department of Wargaming, after their brilliant job during the CV rework.... LUL

I've been reading a lot of comments and basically any of us could do a better job of balancing these out than WG has. Homeing torps and bypassing torp protection is a non-starter, instead why not have the torps be especially stealthy and where the sub captain can set them as deepwater torps (as many captains did in WWII) if they want. Should make them slower to dive as well, and super vulnerable to being spotted with hydro.

Easy, they don´t

That's some Wargaming faerie dust at work again, making pre-nuclear subs run at 24 knots with instant crash dives. For comparison: The IJN's Sentaka class had the best underwater flank speed of any fleet submersible at 19 knots, while the German's Type XVII prototypes were able to do 22 kts. Methinks if they want to give the subs a way to avoid incoming fire, make the dive and surface times take longer. Even for an arcade game, the current times are ridiculous.

Show us whom are responsible for this "submarine" idea. Go man up and face with player base. Please!

Some ideas to start with: 1. The pings need to warn the ships being pinged. 2. The pings need to only apply to torps not yet launched. 3. Max 2 subs per team

How to balance this? 1. They should consider only allowing 1 or 2 subs max per team 2. Change the torpedo mechanics. Make it act like a passive acoustic torpedoes, which were prevalent in WW2. Torp has a minmum arming distance (eg. 400m) whereby the seeker activates and the torps will go straight until it hears a ship within its cone of detection (maybe 30 deg and 2km) whereby it will steer itself into the target.... doesn't matter if it's a friend or foe. 3. Give some ships, eg BBs and cruisers a new consumable.... torpedo decoy that will cause the torps to lock onto that instead of the main ship. 4. Change the detection mechanics of the sub. Add Periscope depth to the detection category, where visual detection drops to under 1km, and also an option to snorkel or not. Snorkelling will recharge the batt at any speed, and will increase the detectability of the sub. Not snorkelling means the sub will not recharge its batts, be limited to underwater speeds, but will be less detectable.

One point. You need HE to damage a submarine - therefore, the most player will shoot even MORE he to have the "right" ammo against the fruther threat of the subs. So i see even more HE spam. NICE Wg, realy nice

How were SS's balanced IRL? Speeds underwater were very slow. Diving required opening vents, and it took minutes to dive. There was limited compressed air for resurfacing, so subs couldn't dive and surface repeatedly. They couldn't fire torps at depth. Until late in war, no homing torps, and that only for a few German subs. ASW destroyers, destroyer escorts, and corvettes could determine depth from ASDIC/sonar, and depth charges could be dialed in up to crush depth. Projected hedgehogs were contact explosives that worked at any depth. For WoWS: No spotting for other ships or firing torps below periscope depth. Replace pinging or homing torps with high impact, slow reload torps that can still fire at azimuths up to 90 degrees off bow or stern. Diving (to any depth) is an expendable, and takes time. Subs move slowly on battery power underwater. Subs are visible at any depth to ships with hydroaccoustic search, and depth charges are effective to any depth while hydroacoustic search is active They're an ambush ship, useful mostly against capital ships and cruisers that move predictably. They are weak to everything, especially air, on the surface, and to DDs at any depth underwater. Below periscope depth, they have no offensive capability, and can escape hunting DDs only through outmaneuvering/outlasting their hydroaccoustic search. All of this of course would make subs very weak: one balances this with high DP torps, more oxygen capacity, and spotting distances. SS play should be racing to one's ambush position, praying one doesn't get spotted while waiting to dive, then making a few high hitting torp attacks in ambush, slowly running from DDs at depth, and maybe surfacing to move to a second ambush position.

Here's some balance ideas. Have submarines take damage the same way secondary modules do (so HE can more easily hit them surfaced and underwater). If the sub cannot be hit by 8" HE shell explosions, it cannot contact its team. Subs move slow when not surfaced (

Let them do this: 1. Submarines diving below the point where HE can hit them is a consumable. Then drop the whole depth charge thing. Since a submarine won't be able to enter "invincible-mode" for most of the time, normal guns will suffice. 2. They have terrible concealement when above water, but are fast and have incredible concealement under water, but are considerably slower. 3. Dive is a switch. You are either under water or above the water, but nothing in between. It also takes a few seconds to dive or to surface and you can't interrupt the process. Maybe give them 2 levels of dive to avoid certain torpedo types, but the lower dive should come with some penalty (say, spotting distance: 0km). 4. Pinging won't warn the player, but will instead highlight any torps launched by the sub for a few seconds. That way, pinging late makes more sense since it gives the enemy player less of a change of evading. Combined with 5., this enables certain kinds of counterplay. 5. Have sub torps be all or nothing. If you get 0 or 1 ping and you hit the torpedo buldge, have it count twice. For example: Yamato has 56% torpedo protection. If it was pinged only once by a sub, it will not take 44% damage by it, but 19.36% of what the torp actually could do. If it has been 2 pings, have it do 100%. Also, hitting the buldge without 2 pings CANNOT create flooding. Bam. Now this should be balancable.

The part around 6:00 is exactly what I was afraid of. All the destroyers and light cruisers can be taken out and then the subs effectively have free reign to do whatever they want because nobody has depth charges at that point. It seems like even if WG did their very best to balance these things, it would still end up breaking the game and it looks like they're full speed ahead on submarines anyway regardless of what actually happens. I do kind of like Flamu's PvE only idea though.

There was a game that incorporated submarines very well in the past. Not exactly sure what it was called, maybe battle stations. The way they balanced submarines was a few things you mentioned. First of all there were no homing torps. Second they could only stay under water for a limited time but they retain invulnerability at very deep depths. Also one of the core aspects to their torps were that they needed to be armed after a certain distance and would cause no damage up to a certain distance. They were still hard to hit being smaller than destroyers but also very weak. They also could not manuvere well under water. Destroyers torps were faster and just one would sink a sub but sub torps hit much harder but much slower. Depth charges were also very strong against torps but they had to land fairly close. I'm fairly sure they would hit even at very deep depths come to think of it, where the subs could barely move. Tbh the game was the first warship game I played and it was a little more fun than warships at the time. I liked quite a few of the mechanics personally. BB's had an birds eye view option when firing, destroyers were less likely to yolo because of the torp arming range. World of warships pretty much adopted everything from this game I believe but still fucked up the subs so many years later lol.... I hope everyone has played it. Very good. Be well. Thanks for the games.

I think I read somewhere (so don't hold me to this) that in reality during ww2 if a sub was spotted its position was reported and an aircraft with depth charges was despatched as they were much better anti sub weapons. We can't do this in wows and as such one of their main irl counters is removed and as such I don't see how wg are meant to balance this. I am not suggesting giving carriers anti sub specific planes as carriers can do enough already I just thought I would mention this

Thanks for the info. I agree that as long as they keep it out of randoms and ranked, they can do whatever they want with subs.

easy to balance if you take away the dmg reduction perk from subs and increase the dmg of depth charges to almost insta kill a full health sub. that way subs need to actively avoid dds if they dont want to be blown out of the water just like in real life.

WG if I remember in the post about the test said they do intend to put them into 9.4 in their own game mode (I imagine like we got on test right now) and continue to "balance" from there. Then from there they will decide what to do with the class ultimately. IMO as it stands, no go on being allowed in regular random battle. PvE is fine with a few players on both sides (obviously to play the class and counter). I really like the thought of having subs but the way they stand now is just too broken. This video demonstrates one of the major issues. Battleship is the last one alive with another carrier and sub but anyone in another sub who can think a bit can easily outmaneuver homing torpedoes, they can stay low enough where they can't be hit by surface fire, and wow carrier for once can literally not hit something. Reconfigure how their spotting works (I see a lot of radio silence type comments and I think that sounds nice in-game spotting wise, but people can also call out approximate ship locations and types via game chat to). In regards to the homing torpedoes, do away with that or either make them have a spotting range of 2km+ depending on current depth. That being said I noticed it was never mentioned in the video that their homing actually deactivates once they're within 1km of whatever they were tracking. I think that could work in some sense if they just had a huge detection range because then you could start to maneuver to throw them off but maybe the homing needs to be cut off earlier to give the clunkier BBs more of a chance. The ability for them to citadel is an absolute hell no. That literally makes no sense how a torpedo can ignore torpedo bulges simply because a submarine pinged the ship two times. What are they AP torpedoes now with a sharp burrowing tip that can pierce that kind of thing and basically detonate inside the ship? Anyway, more counters are a definite need, along with the highly questionable functionality of the torpedoes they use, and spotting. Hey radar works through land i don't see why it can't work underwater. Of course right now we can't test that possibilty, as if it would mean much being that the sub can completely avoid any type of retaliation.

1) Allow them to only fire torps when surfaced. 2) When submerged, they cannot directly spot enemy ships, instead they get something similar to RPF with indicators showing the direction, type, and speed of the enemy ships. And make it a limited range, like 4-5km. 3) Remove the OP rocket planes from carriers and give them depth charge aircraft instead. ASW aircraft were even more important than destroyers in shutting down enemy subs, as my great-uncle who flew primarily ASW missions off the USS Enterprise in WW2 could attest. This will kill two birds with one stone: the overwhelming power CV rocket planes have on DDs, and avoiding those situations where all allied ships that can depth charge are dead. Usually unless a CV is played very very poorly it is one of the last ships to die anyway. I believe these would bring a bit more balance to submarines.

It's really satisfying going over the top of a sub and dropping those depth charges. I also slow down to get more charges closer together. The wait time for trying out a sub is so long I haven't been able to get a game in one yet. So I have been in DDs and CLs to get game time. Two scenarios, one attacking and one defending a convoy would be great. But you are right if you are perma spotted by a Sub you are in trouble.

I really dont see how WG thinks adding subs is going to be good for the game. Only two types of ships can deal with them consistently and thats really stretching it especially with that damage negation consumable. What kind of counterplay are CAs and BBs supposed to do? Slinging HE at open water seems to do little and all the sub has to do is just dive a little bit to avoid all damage. How is this supposed to mesh well with the surface combat in any way shape or form? It just doesn't look fun in the slightest. A single internal test at the beginning when they had the idea in the first place should have confirmed this and all development should have stopped. With all the advertising and dev work they have already committed to trying to get this to work has me worried they are going to push this for a live release regardless of the testing results.

1. Make spotting of subs by aircraft from a CV more effective 2. Nerf underwater speed to around 15 to 18 knots 3. Submerged vision is non existant especially during deeper submerge. 4. Sonar or whatever that ping is that lights up the oceqn floor should either use battery power every time you want to see around you or use more. Same with torp pings that should use a lot more.

It's actually pretty straightforward - subs don't spot for other ships while they are underwater. That solves pretty much every issue you present here, except for the issue where subs can drag out the game.