This guy tuned/dialed in my stock suspension on my '08 KTM Super Duke 990 at a track day at Sonoma Raceway. It took him maybe 2 minutes. Totally transformed the bike and I was easily 5 seconds faster a lap the next session. I was blown away by the stability. BEST $20 I EVER SPENT.
I just had my Ninja 300’s suspension set up by Dave. I learned so much in just 10 min of speaking to him and watching him work. He’s a Wizard, I tell ya!
Interesting tool, especially when there is no assistant with a tape measure around :) I work as mechanical engineer at Ohlins Racing, and can vouch for his statement that sag adjustment is the very first step that should be done if you want to get the most performance out of your suspension(and ultimately faster lap times). There also some misconseptions out there what the preload does. Some people believe that the spring will become stiffer by adding preload, but that is not the case. Preload only changes the sag or "ride height", that's all it does. The spring has the same spring rate (Newton/mm) throughout the whole stroke (unless you have progressive springs, which is not very common on sport bikes).
Hi Mikael, Good point, thank you for the input! I think alot of people just don't have enough time to learn about this stuff so it is easy for others to spread bad information. We need more people like you that are willing to add to the conversation rather than start their own! If you see Chris Nilsson (Stockholm) if he is back from paternity leave!
@@SlackerUSA Ahh, so you know Cristopher? I wouldn't say I know him very well, since we never have worked in the same department, but I have talked to him briefly. I'm with the MC OEM dept. since 2013, and he is with the marketing dept. in the north end of the Ohlins building. I will tell him you said hi next time I see him :) And regarding suspension setup, and analyzing/solving mysterious chassis behavior, there is a lot more to be said. Although I've worked at Ohlins for more than 8 years, I still learn new things almost daily, and there is always things to improve, so I have never seen myself as an "expert". But I'm willing to share my accumulated knowledge to anyone who is interested. It's also in the best interest of Ohlins that our customers knows what to do with all the knobs and dials, so they make full use of their investment.
@@mikaeljonsson2078 Yep, we met a few years ago at the Anaheim Supercross and he is a great guy! Thank you for the input, you are welcome here any time;-)
But if F=Kx, doesn't that mean that as you compress the spring (more preload), then the minimum force to compress the spring further, is now higher? That's why commoners say it is now "stiffer", because it is?
xxMegaHDxx They run $150 for Slacker and $25 for the street kit. We sell them as a bundle on our site. If you are interested email me and I can get you a discount code- johny@motool.co
Finally saw this vid the other day. My Motool V2 is on the way. Dave, thanks for this cool information. I've been going crazy trying to setup my R1M. Now I don't have to explain what to measure and what to do.
Yep, a great guy and straight up genius on street setup. We will be working together closely moving forward to educate riders on the importance of setup for both performance and safety.
For an even more accurate reading, you can put a small block of wood under rear tire to match the front wheel's chock stand height, otherwise your bike is at at a slight upright angle during all your measurements.
Hey dave 2007 r6 when i press down the front end. Im gettin a crunch or smal clunk noise. What could it be ? Possible stem bearing adjustment? Or fork suspension issue? Thanks
what spring hardness should be mounted close to the original? maybe a little harder. motorcycle is gsxr 600 k4. I mean the front suspension.I can't find the hardness of the original spring anywhere
Hey Dave! I have a 2019 Yamaha R3 that I just bought as my first motorcycle (other than dirtbikes). I am having a hard time getting the rear spring preload set to a decent amount. I have played with settings 3 through the softest/less compressed setting but the ride is pretty firm on the cracks in the road. At one point I had to stand up yesterday because it felt like I could get bucked off. I weigh less than most riders (150 lbs). Also, I have the dunlop sportmax gpr 300f tires on it that are brand new. I am running 29 psi in the front and 36 psi rear like it says on the swingarm. Also, I thought it was odd, but I am only getting around 15% compression of the rear spring when I sit on it and it is set on the weakest setting. I also do not see any static sag when I pick the bike up on the weakest setting or any setting for that matter.
If you have no static its too much pre load! I push my rear down let it rebound then lift up to check for sag. Also that tire pressure is way too high!! Mine says the same but 36 is a lot & will only get higher the more you ride from heat. Friction makes heat plus road temp! As seasons change you'll need to adjust the psi, where i live in the south psi can increase by about 10 with aggressive driving in the summer. Ive been riding on decent days recently about 28 & 30 psi, which only increases, the warmer the air temp the warmer the road & the more increase your tire pressure will have! In warmer weather & summer I'll drop to 26 & 28 & maybe more. All bikes & all tires are different! I weigh not much more than you & my preload is almost at the maximum adjustment, if you have too take it to the max to get that static sag you need & take out some tire pressure! That will for sure make a difference! The roads around here can be awful so i fight the same thing. If you have been to the softest setting with no relief that should tell you tires are all thats left. 29-30 psi in the rear is absolutely plenty! Some run a lot less than that, youll have to experiment & see what you like. If you're at 36 & you ride a few hours you may be at 40psi or even more which would be a hard tire. Hope this can help you & you get it straightened out. If you don't believe me just listen to what this guy says about tires & pressure, anyone that knows will say the same! Good luck, ride safe!
Good info, that’s why I always check cold and hot tire pressure. It gives you a good reference of a starting point, if do it a lot you will know the about start pressure. I street ride and if its 95 degrees out side I know to set cold tires at around 28, when I ride I know it will end up around 35-36. Just s trick a buddy taught me many moons ago.
Do I need to completely lift the front and rear suspension with the well of the ground or just lift it a little with my hands? How do I know if I’m lifting it too much or too little?
I told the shop i wanted the suspension adjusted to my weight. And he said ill just use the clickers , ride it then come back if you need it. And soon as i left the shop i could feel the difference. And it wasnt a good difference. The front is too soft now. Almost to the point where front of the bike turns but the read doesnt follow. Feels its slipping under me when i lean the bike. What kind of settings do you recommend for a 2007 zx6r street bike sag & suspension settings that has had its forks worked on a season ago (last year). since i live upstate NY and bike is only barely ridden 5 months .
You should email Dave Moss directly. You can check out his website davemosstuning dot com - he can do all your suspension setup via skype! I've met him several times IRL and he's the best!!!
I was wondering, if I want to measure the dynamic sag for my pre load, do I have to worry about the compression settings, because if there is a lot of compression rebound, the results I measure will be different from the results with no compression rebound, I suppose.
Great info on how to get the numbers... But NOW, what do we DO with them..?? How do we come back and find the setting that is best for US individually? And how do we know if the front and rear are 'level' with each other?
Start in the middle and work either direction to find your sweet spot. A balanced bike would be something like 30mm in the front and 30mm in the rear for street. From there you can try some different settings to find what works best for you.
Great video, ill def. Get it when im confident in messing with the suspension....if you dont mind me asking, where can i get those clips for the D ring fasteners?
Mark Farnsworth he can help you set up everything for you & your Biking needs over his Facebook Account,i think his FB details are in the Descriptions under most of his YT vids ✊💨✌✊💨 hope this helps ??? Keep it Pinned & Rubber side up ✌️
It does affect the damping as the fluid gets hotter and thinner. It will only slightly affect the sag due to the damping being a little softer but nothing major.
This is Johny, typically 25-35mm depending on the track. We do have more specific videos here from Dave and you can find recommended setting in our user guides and Service Assistant App.
For typical street riding running the same on each end is recommended. It will provide a bike that does everything decent and is well balanced. For racing it gets a little more complicated depending on the track style and conditions;-)
I understand what is all about but as for me I am not going on track and I do not need a specific set-up for a specific track, what I will like to know what is the balanced set-up and what this set-up of sag will do to my driving? Can I have some tips?
For general street riding I would shoot for 30mm on both ends. It will allow the bike to do everything pretty good and be very predictable as opposed to a race setup that would be geared towards a particular track and focus on doing one or two things extremely well and sacrificing in other areas.
@@SlackerUSA ..thanx, you got exactly my point but 30mm on front is not too much soft? As far as I understood should be less than back, let say 30mm back, 20mm front, but what I also will like to understand more, other than compression and dumping (which are essential the most) how the bike will react on front with the 20 or 30 mm sag? How the back will react with 30 or 20mm sag? I get how the bike work in breaking and acceleration but how it effect it?
@@robertking1032 It is a matter of what you like but generally I would start flat like 30 on both ends or 25 on both ends. To adjust the stiffness, that is all dampers, sag set the bikes posture and you do not use the springs to adjust the stiffness or prevent bottoming typically. As far as balance, having the front lower than the rear will make it turn sharper but be less stable at speed. If the rear sits lower it will be more stable at speed but will not steer very well. Racers make a compromise for turn or speed, for typical street riders you want a balanced, flat bike typically. The best way to find out is set it up and try tweaking it to find what you like. No rider is the same;-)
Hello Dave, I want to thank you very much for all the videos and trying to help us riders, especially they are good for me, as I keep trying to figure this out!!! :) (happy face doesn't work on RU-vid) regardless, I have the measurement with myself on it, then to the same line/place, measure without myself, then again when I top out the shock. have I got it by---I just get a mental block, have learning disabilities- averaging the three??? but if that's so, then do I set the free sag to the average number? I hope that isn't a dumb question. I'm trying and I have nobody, (live with my dogs) to help me figure it. Thank you again. Average OF the three I should have wrote.
liveatvictoria This is Johny with Motool. Typically we set the rider sag and then look at the static. Using the average is a good way to do it, the biggest thing is always do it the same. Consistency is key to making gains in bike setup;-)
@@SlackerUSAThank you very much. I have a 2017 GSX-R1000R, really should know at least some of this by now, but used to have a person helped and my last bike was a 1987 Honda CBR1000F Hurricane, which had spring shocks, with very minimal adjustment availability. Now to try and learn the rebound and compression settings. Won't mess with it till I understand better. Thank you again.
@@liveatvictoria6853 No problem, it is confusing for everyone at first. As long as you pick a little bit up here and there you will get there! Happy New Years!
I don't make any adjustments to damping prior to taking the measurement. The key is consistency so just make sure you always follow the same routine;-)
@@ringsting The only one I know is www.mirivi.co.za/ but they haven't ordered in quite a while so I doubt they have stock. We can ship it to you for about $25.00 and if you use code VIP10 that will get you 10% off to help cover shipping. Shoot me an email if you have questions- johny@motool.co
Dave will not get this as this is posted under the Motool channel. You will want to be around 25-35mm in the front and 30-40mm in the rear depending on the track. For street run the same number on both ends and for a track run less sag in the rear to make it more aggressive. Feel free to hit up Dave on his channel;-)
I've just bought the slacker and I'm a bit confused to be honest , when I lift the back of the bike to find static sag I'm getting a reading of 26mm , but when I zero it and sit on bike to get rider sag I'm getting 24/25 mm so do I take preload of or put preload on . thanks for any help
You need to start with the tool at zero with the suspension unloaded. I know Dave starts with the tool at zero with the bike under it's own weight here, but he likes to add and subtract and it is not necessary. With the bike under it's own weight, simply put the tool in auto zero and lift the bike until the suspension tops out. Then all your measurements are in real-time. By the sounds of it you likely have way too much sag and are seeing a static of 26mm plus 25mm (51mm) you are reading when you sit on it. Make sure the tool is zeroed out with the suspension fully unloaded and then let me know what the measurements are;-)
@@SlackerUSA fantastic , I've now got a static sag of 10mm ( slacker zeroed out bike upright and me lifting the rear end ). after some adjustments and when I'm on the bike with it under my weight I've got 28mm ( bike upright and slacker zeroed out and then me on it ). So is this a rider sag of 38 mm . Do you add the to figures together ?. Thanks for any help . Dylan .
@@DylanGSXR You are right on the money! No need to add, this is showing you 10mm with the bike under it's own weight and 28mm with you mounted. No need for math as it is measuring from where the shock topped out when you placed it in auto zero. Good work;-)
Whats a good sag setting front n back on a 2012 gsxr 750 track bike on dlop slicks, stock suspension, stock geometery,185lb. Old rider but i "was" an expert racer, 8 year out of the game.
I would start at 30mm both ends for the most balanced bike. You can go a little more in the front if you want tighter steering but this would be a good starting place for you and you can experiment from there to find what you like best;-)
Actually the damping is critical but you first start with getting the bike balanced which is what Dave is discussing here. He has a complete RU-vid channel you can follow for more in depth setup advice;-)
DumbledoreMcCracken Of course the weight will transfer rearwards when accelerating.... But your concept of ‘maximum’ is slightly incorrect. (Half the trick is moving body weight, not only side to side but forwards and backwards to achieve the desired balance and grip required.) Sag is not a measure of suspensions rate and range of ‘movement’. Its a measurement of the springs percentage of compression with the riders mass and the bikes sprung mass (entire mass that is resting ‘on’ the spring. Ie; the mass of the wheel, swingarm, brake calliper etc etc are not included in the bikes sprung mass.)
I wish this guy was at my local track! I've got a brand new Kawasaki ZX-14 r and I only weigh 140 pounds the thing is so stiff it wants to throw me off I wish I had somebody that knew how to dial it in better than my guessing.
Yeah, Dave is amazing with bike setup. The best place to start is to get the bike setup for your weight and then determining if your springs are in the right range for your weight. What are your rider and static sag numbers on each end?
Absolutely, this is something you need to do on pretty much any bike with adjustable suspension to make sure the bike handles right for your weight and riding conditions;-)
if I were to aim 30mm of sag for both static and rider sag. The measurement would be 60mm of sag with the suspension fully extended to with the rider on it. Correct?
I think you are looking at it wrong. Static sag will only be around 10mm and the rider sag includes that number actually since the bike will just be compressed further when the rider mounts it. Static is measured with the bike under its own weight, and the rider sag is measured with the rider mounted. If you were to adjust to 30mm rider sag in addition to the 10mm static measurement, you would be running 40mm and will be way off track. Does this make sense?
@@lawrenceblah1563 Correct, and static would be fully extended to bike under its own weight. I always adjust my rider sag, then you can look at the static to make sure you are in the ballpark on your spring rates;-)
Hi I’ve a new Triumph speed twin.... virtually no sag , suspension barely moves when I sit on , shock on softest setting I weigh 168 lbs ? New suspension.... Hagon built to weight ? Regards Fred
@@FredWilbury Great, let me know the measurement when you are seated as well as the static sag with the bike under it's own weight. With these numbers we should be able to shine some light on the situation;-)
@@FredWilbury You are right on the money! It will sag slightly more once you get it broken in so check it every 5 hours or so and adjust back to 30 to keep things working right;-)
Dave...i have had my bike set up by a specialist.. it's a mt10 Yamaha sp with electric suspension... I watched your video doing the new street fighter Ducati... I noted you adjusted it so u could lift the rear a little for static sag, I had mine set with rider sag by the suspension experts.. however I have no lift on the rear so guess I have no static sag.. is this ok which is most important static or rider.. help please for peace of mind.... thanks
Hi Kevin, it is Johny with Motool. It is hard to say not knowing what the rider sag is. Typically this would mean that the spring is too soft and it took a ton of preload to hold the rider up to get a decent rider sag number. Do you know what your rider sag number is or did the just preload the shock and send you on your way?
@@kevinmill7965 Looks like the spring is way too tight. I would think the bike would be pretty unstable at speed and overall busy. Once you do this you will likely see 8-10mm in static sag. You should be somewhere between 25-30mm with the rider mounted. 30mm would be a great starting point front and rear for a basic street setup and you can tweak it from there for better steering or better stability at speed to see what works best for you for the riding conditions;-)
@@SlackerUSA ok thanks bud I'll double check it .. so when I get 30mm ride sag if I have no static sag after still then diff weight spring required.? Iam around 103 kilos in my leathers
Well, what you can do is: There is probably a spacer on top of the springs inside your front forks. Have a machinist create pairs of spacers like the stock one but in decreasing lengths. This way you can adjust the preload on your front forks also!
That blue thing holding up the bike...Isn't it messing up the results, like he's tuning the bike, on a hill? Shouldn't there be wood or something raising the rear wheel off the ground, the same amount as that blue thing raises the front? With just the front wheel elevated like that, wouldn't the rear behave like it's heavier then it actually is? And should suspension tuning be done with a full tank of gas, or half?
Great question, It is a Baxley stand and might throw it off like 1mm but if you always use the stand it really doesn't matter because it is already considered in the setup you have picked. Consistency is key so always have a full tank of gas, wear all your gear, use the same stand, sit in the same place and do it on level ground. That way, once you find your numbers it is super easy to replicate prior setups quickly;-)
@@SlackerUSA Thank you. I asked about half tank, because I was worried, at half tank or less, and when I'm not carrying anything, the suspension would be too stiff. My bike is a Sport-Tourer. An old Goldwing I'm turning into a Cafe-Racer. But I'm keeping the side cases, because I make a living delivering things. I call this a Delivery-Racer. But by your comment, I guess I should tune my suspension for when my bike is at it's heaviest, not tune for average weight.
@@observingrogue7652 No problem, these are all good things to consider. With sport touring and ADV bikes we set them up pretty much every ride since the loads change so much. If that is not an option I would lean on the stiff side but adjusting for the current situation is always preferred;-) Bike sounds very interesting, we had a few Goldwings back in the 80's but haven't had my hands on one since. I am interested to see this beast when you get it done!
motool I never thought about adjusting frequently, for every situation. I've gotten used to the idea of just having a well-rounded setup, for nearly anything. Maybe I should save a lot and get an electronically adjustable suspension? And if I can't find an aftermarket electronic suspension for my Goldwing, then maybe I can retrofit a system from a high-end bike, or just use an Arduino & servos.
@@observingrogue7652 That is really up to you. I would spring it on the heavy side and adjust regularly but if you want to try to setup and Arduino and play with it that works too:)
I'm surprised this gizmo doesn't use a laser and a little mirror for measuring and then have it broadcast results to a phone app. Strings seem inelegant and prone to needing recalibration perhaps.
Great idea. I actually started with laser and then ultrasound. The problem is that you cannot keep them pointed at a fixed position on the body as the axle rotates and they are very susceptible to light interference from sunlight so it never gave a stable or accurate reading I could trust, it was a similar situation with ultrasound. The lasers are also horribly expensive, like $600.0 just for a good one. The retractable cable was actually key to meking it super accurate while keeping it affordable. Inelegant maybe, but also beautiful in it's simplicity after all of the testing was done;-)
He did my gsxr750 a couple years ago. Would recommend highly. He was doing tours around everywhere and I was lucky enough he was close to mine and yeah. An awesome set up
Make a note how many clicks things turn for before stopping, write these numbers down and return everything back to where they were. (This is your ‘base’ setting you can always return too if you get it wrong. Now, find out what adjustments your bikes suspension has and go watch more videos that explains why and how these adjustments should be made, and how the various adjustments should be balanced against each other. Then have a try.... All you need is, •a tape measure, •a small flat head screw driver and •a ‘C-spanner’ for your model of bike, which are cheap and your local bike dealership will be able to supply you. •And an extra set of hands to help balance your bike while you sit on it. Just leave any bolts alone unless you have a torque spanner and a manual for servicing your bike.
Nice vid, that Motool is new to me so I need to see if it's available in the UK. Lose the music though, it irritates and reduces the ability to focus on the tech being provided.
Thanks for the input, we will keep it in mind for the next vid. Also, we don't have much presence over there but we do ship to the UK. If you are interested, shoot me an email and I can get you a free shipping coupon code- johny@motool.co
motool Yeah but it does lift it for few milimeters, which is significat enough to be noticeable in measurements. Why weren't both rear and front stand used?
it is not significant honestly, Dave is hands down the best tuner I have ever met and he is super picky. If he thought it was an issue, he wouldn't use the Baxley stand. The front tire being 3mm off the ground does not change the measurement by 3mm, it is a fraction of a millimeter. If you feel it is necessary to use two stands that is fine but it is overkill if you ask me. We are measuring in millimeters not tenths or hundredths. The key is to always do it the same and to know your numbers.
5:25 I know Dave is world renowned and all, but I'm not sure if everyone would be able to determine whether the bike is "topped out" while lifting 400 pounds of it with their hands XD
Actually it is pretty easy to feel it if you have the strength to lift it. For the fork you could always use a head lift stand or a side stand or buddy will do;-)
Didn't understand half of that. You basically just maxed out the preload. And when you did the front it visibly got lower but you said it was taller...proper confusing
Hi Simon .Not sure why you think the front of the bike got lower. I looked and could not see any movement, but you wont really see a 6 mm change from that distance, in either direction. Adding preload means you are compressing the spring and that the bike's own weight will therefore have less of an effect on the travel of the suspension - hence it sits higher when preload is added. Suspension only has a certain amount of travel so you want the weight of the bike, and you, to only take up a certain amount of that travel. (I'm not an expert, but hope that helps)
WhySoSerious ? Hi there, if you’re compressing the spring you’re making it shorter, by definition. So I don’t understand how this makes the front end sit up unless you’re actually putting tension into the spring to make it stiffer which would make it taller.
Definitely not just a tape measure. It reads everything in real-time and you can use your phone as a remote display and also record all of your measurements into your setup notes in the app. Shockwiz is a totally different concept and only works on air suspension and does not measure anything. I see some value in measuring at the shock but it is more accurate measuring at the axle and it gives you way more granularity for adjustment. I do plan on another product in the MTB space that is probably more in line with your thinking but it is a couple years out still.
So dealers have no right to offer test rides? OR to allow a new buyer to ride his new unmeasured sag motorcycle home? Just saying is all Dave's "no right to ride the bike" seems just a tad bit fanatatical? Maybe should be somehow rephrased (6 years later lol) as "no right to expect an unmeasured motorcycle to be right or as safe as it should be to ride".....something along those lines perhaps...its what I dont care for about Dave....a bit hard to take sometimes
