I have been continuing to make videos and have my own channel now Dave Moss Tuning. With a massive selection of videos, you will probably find the video content that you are looking for. If not, we can create it.
Hello Dave and Editor! Just 2 questions. Why does the "recomended" sag in the back is 30mm to 35mm and in the front 35 to 40mm? I even read in a famous magazine they both sould be around 30mm for the street (for a canyon rider is that ok?), And there is any problem in front and back sag being diferent? Last, you should messure the sag also hot or just the rebound? And does it make a huge difference or just from potencialy very good to perfect? Thanks a lot, Great videos, keep it up.
@elalis thank you! I want every rider to understand how important it is to their safety to set sag and hydraulics and to that end provide video instructions on how to do it. It still stuns me after 15 years of doing this how small the number of riders are who have done this to their bikes. Staggering. Dave Moss Host
Preben - thank you. Sag for the track is 30-35mm for the forks depending on your braking style and in the rear of the bike it is 25-30mm depending on your acceleration skills. Faster lap times = stiffer suspension in small increments. Dave Moss Host
@wowerman yes, you can lower the bike by softening preload and compression. Start with preload first. Remember that when you lower the bike or soften the suspension, the danger of hitting hard parts on the ground increases dramatically. Only go as much as is needed. Dave Moss Host
@mwahidin you should set sag between 35-40mm for the front and 27-35m for the rear. The smaller the number the stiffer the bike in terms of ride, so it all depends what level of comfort you are looking for. Dave Moss Host
Thanks for your help on my beemer on Saturday at Central park.Wish you were there when I bought my Z1 900 when first imported to nz.Rear shock hard as nails & steering column not braced.Kwakas did not have a good reputation for stability.Memory of wild days, not too much policing.Nice to meet you.
@LightningMAS Mike - front is the larger number, rear always a smaller number. Start with compression in the middle of the toal range, and then go 1/3 hard, 1/3rd soft and see what side YOU prefer. Dave Moss Host
You are correct. You do need a sport chock or the help of your friends to hold the bike up. We should have mentioned that the bike was in a sport chock.
thanks for this video i just bought my 2008 R6 and your intructions are very very usefull ....have no words to say how you have helped me , sory about my english im from argentina
Thanks for the great tips. My bike only has preload adjustments but this was still very informative and makes a big difference when things are set properly.
Great vids. I've only been riding a year. I have a 08 Suzuki Gsxr 600. Never had or knew about setting up a bike like this. I just got your DVDs in the mail today Dave. Can't wait to turn thous knobbs.
@elalis the range of compression for low speed (screw) is 0-2 turns out. The range for the high speed compression (blue) is 0-1.75 turns out. High speed is for sharp edged bumps in trying to mute severe immediate impacts. Dave Moss Host
@leoads in this instance the R6 has progressive springs not linear, so my comment is appropriate. You are precisely correct in your philosophical stance on linear springs! Dave Moss Host
@alcobaseta yes, start over if necessary, and make sure you go from stop to stop to know what your range is that you have. Then work your way from soft (compression and preload) and fast (rebound) inwards. Pick a system that makes sense to you! Dave Moss Host
@wowerman there are products out there to help lower the bike with adjustable lowering links. You can soften the preload on the rear shock as that has a stiff rear spring and this would give you an immediate benefit. You can also soften the compression damping to the middle of the range to help the bike sag a little more. The fork springs are soft, so be careful with fork spring tension changes. Dave Moss Host
@SAMFICOM we need to clarify. Static sag is the bike sitting under its own weight from top out front and rear and can be called free sag. Rider sag is you on the bike. Static and rider sag = total sag. Sag is a starting point, no more no less. There's no magic number. Range is 30 to 45mm in the front, 20-35mm in the rear. All depends on the quality of ride you are looking for - comfort or firm for more feedback? Work from soft, intermediate to stiff and see what you like best. Dave Moss Host
I totally agree with you on that metric measurements is a lot more accurate, I wish we can just get ride of the our current measure standards here in the US. Metric standards is a way better way and it's easier to use.
Our government schools continue to teach very little of the metric system. And all medical/medicines/are all metric. You couldn't be a doctor if you didn't know the metric system. Convert 27 inches to feet, yards, and miles.. Will take a while. Convert 27mm to Centimeters to Decimenters and then Meters. EASY: 27 mm = 270cm=2700dm=27000meters.
@LightningMAS tr these settings, Fork preload in the middle of the range, rebound at 1 turn out from close, compression at 2 turns out from closed. Leave the shock preload alone set compression at 1-2 turns out from closed and rebound at 1.5 turns out from closed. This all depends on fork and shock oil age/mileage. If yo are over 10k with old suspension oil you will need to set rebound more to the closed end by .25 or .5 of a turn Dave Moss Host
@SAMFICOM the fork springs must be replaced with 1.0kg rate and 15w oil to the spec oil height. The shock spring is marginal but okay for your weight. Set sag at 35mm in the rear. The bike bounce looks ok but as you say that is with cold oil in the forks and shock. Dave Moss Host
Preload does not need to change based on ambient temps - only based on track topographical demands, rider weight fluctuations of 15 plus pounds, and 2 up riding. Rebound settings change based on ambient temps and oil age. The older the oil the more it gets to be molasses. Therefore the colder the temps the more it stays that way, especially with front forks that are constantly exposed to very cold air. Factor in wind chill at 50 plus mph and you understand why cold steel won't heat up fork oil.
@michaeldegge The Scotts has a degree range as a rotary damper compared to a GPR that dampens throughout the turning radius. The Scotts is very adjustable as long as you know how to adjust it and they have very comprehensive instructions. As with all dampers, service the oil every couple of years or less depending on use. Dave Moss Host
@GixxerDan750 use the kick stand for extended measurements for front and rear and then use the paddock stands. It won't be 100% accurate but it will get you close. Set sag in the forks to 35mm and the shock to 30mm. You'll need to run compression close to max. Rebound all depends on oil age. Dave Moss Host
@michaeldegge This will not effect preload, just compression. You may need to add or remove 2 or 3 clicks depending on your braking technique. The benefit is a little more stroke that couldn't be accessed otherwise! Dave Moss Host
@wowerman 3.5 inches is a good starting point for the forks. Then adjust preload to test front fork dive when you initially apply the brake hard. Get comfortable with that setting and then play with compression damping for bump absorption. Dave Moss Host
You have long top-out spring - adding preload just increases your total suspension travel. There are two ways to find your true sag in this case. Easy way: add all preload in the front to compress top-out springs as much as you can. Then measure fully extended front and use this number as you fully extended figure all the time. Harder, but more precise - find your mechanical bottom out point, then add your front suspension travel to that and use the number as fully extended.
@michaeldegge Keep the forks flush and not too much rear ride height, depending on rear axle position. Set the front sag at 42mm and the rear sag at 35mm. Compression needs to be in the firmer half of adjustment and set rebound as needed. Dave Moss Host
To find mechanical bottom out approximately - set compression and rebound damping in the front full soft. Add zip-tie to chrome tube. Drive very slow, then apply front brake quick and hard to bottom-out front forks. Do it few times to be sure. Then mark the position of the zip-tie top on the chrome tube. This is your bottom-out. With you on the bike, take measurement between bottom out line and edge of the dust seal touching chrome tube, say "X"=80mm. Then SAG=(120mm-X)=(120mm-80mm)=40mm=SAG.
@OnTheThrottleTV OMG man!!! Thank you so much Dave!!! My bike is awesome!!! I love the setup u gave me... I can rail corners and hit bumps like nothing.. It makes me a little faster rider .. ;) ;) Thanks Dave for your help!!!!
@mwahidin start compression in the middle of the total range available when the suspension is cold. Ride and see how the suspension works when it gets hot - all depends on oil age/mileage in the forks and shock. Rebound balance can only be set accurately when the oil is hot. Look for the suspension bounce video on catalystreactionsbw channel. Dave Moss Host
@crash86ed yes it will apply to any street or track bike. It is only a starting point, but that is a lot better than stock! At least the bike will be balanced correctly front and rear to your body weight. Then move on to hydraulics and set compression in the middle of the range and go ride. You will be surprised at the difference that makes without trying to balance rebound out front to back. Dave Moss Host
@mooosestang I would change to .85kgs to make sure that you can use the preload as an adjustments. I believe the Buell springs are all the same size in length so it should be a straight swap, but make sure you measure the installed preload first! Dave Moss Host
It can also be done by reading the specifications on the forks that state for example 120mm of total travel. Fully extend the forks with the front wheel in the air and pull down on the wheel, then measure from the dust seal down to the foot and do the math. 170mm total distance? Mechanical bottom out is therefore 50mm from the joint of the fork tube/foot up Dave Moss Host
Perhaps I'm being an old woman, but there's a very important detail that I didn't hear mentioned in this. You can't do this on the sidestand. You need some sort of clamp that holds the bike upright by one of the wheels, or a third person, so "rider" + "technician" + "assistant". If I didn't know this, watching this vid, I would have assumed the bike was just resting on the sidestand.
Set compression in the middle of the range and set sag. Dial the bike in from there for braking adding small amounts of preload as needed to stop bottoming, then change compression to get more feel and feedback
@Doubledge007 make sure you know where all the adjusters are when you start, and then go through one full range of adjustment on one adjuster at a time. Make sure you note where each adjuster feels the best and put it there before you move on to the next one. Rear shock preload will be the most difficult. Dave Moss Host
@ChristopherGreece Christopher, Sag in the fork should be 30-30mm and sag in the rear shock should be 25-35mm. Free sag in the fork should be 10-15mm and n the rear should shock be 5-10mm Dave Moss Host
If you top out the shock by lifting the back of the bike up by hand, you are doing the same thing. If you want the rear fully off the ground, use the kick stand to elevate the wheel. You should get the same reading. That's free sag. Then rider on = rider sag. Totals are then combined.
@wweeks587 Please email e via dave@crstuning(dot)com wit answers to these questions: - original forks and shock and how many miles on current fork and shock oil? - stock gearing or aftermarket (and how is it different to stock) - brand and size of tires Dave Moss Host
@scotty466 125's and 250's need much tighter sag number due to such high corner speed capabilities. Front should be 25 to 30mm and rear should be 20 to 25mm. Correct spring selection is critical on these GP bikes, and you shouldn't have more than 12mm installed preload on shock and fork springs. Take the time to make sure you have the right springs based on track design. Dave Moss Host
@Toxickiller142 if you are going to the track sag settings relate directly to your ability level, bike horsepower and track design combined. 30-40mm in front, 25-35mm in back to start. With hydraulics, you generally add compression to the front and rear for track use but remember that rebound is a constantly evolving setting for bike balance as the oil degrades/ages Dave Moss Host
@scotty466 looks like a great 2011 schedule for this club all over the country at great tracks. I would love to take my skills back home and have often offered my services to riders but nothing has ever come of it. I am hoping to meet with K-Tech while I am home to chat wit them about 2011 both here in the US and back home.
@GixxerDan750 Every time you get a bike you need to know how the bike sag under your own weight. Does the rear collapse taking weight off the front wheel? Does the front collapse putting the balance of the bike on the front tire? That will provide you with basic answers as to why the bike sags as it does. Optimization of compression and rebound is critical for the balance of the bike between dirt and road work. Dave Moss Host
@SAMFICOM good work! Just some very simple alterations to the suspension can create a different bike that is not only safer to ride but also much more comfortable and enjoyable. Spread the word so that others can benefit! Dave Moss Host
sag is just a starting point to know ehere you are. From there you go stiffer or softer to meet your personal needs and ensure that the suspension doesn't bottom out. As always, it is a compromise between skill and comfort and you change sag as your skills increase. Don't get stuck on numbers - it will drive you crazy!
@scyzor123 you need a sag of 32-335mm in the rear and 35mm in the front. Set compression in the middle of adjustment and do the same for rebound. Set these first and then ride the bike. See how the handling changes. Do you think it is better or worse. If worse, where and why? Corner entry, mid corner or corner exit? Dave Moss Host
If OEM setup sag - 60mm for 120mm of total travel, you re-spring front and set the sag correctly to 40, it is required to drop bike on forks by 20mm to get "stock" geometry. Problem - isn't always possible to drop (various reasons). Can be compensated by raising rear ride height within safe sw.arm angle range. Rule of thumb is 10mm ride height increase is ~1degree sw.arm angle increase. Sw.arm angle change math.: x=arctan(r.h.c/sw.arm.length)=arctan(10mm/590mm)=0.97. If OEM 11.0+0.97=11.97
@scotty466 Looking forward to being home for Christmas in Manchester and trying to get a seminar together in Leeds before I leave in January. Seems like its bloody freezing there right now! Dave Moss Host
Im a newbie at suspension setting.. I try to set all all my dampner and rebound to soft.. The bike bounces bad when it hit bumps.. I have no clue what im doing.. Im 5"7' , 140lbs. I have 05 gsxr 600.. I have front and rear both set on stock.. I left it all stock.. I wreally would like for you Dave to setup my suspension!! I heard your the best suspension guy there is!
Just for your specific case where you have 33-35mm range (if you measuring sag correctly), and your lines on the preload adjuster are probably 2mm height, for the street 35mm to 40mm front sag you should be good with just 2 lines showing which should give you about 37mm of the "true" front sag.
@TheAlexandar137 little 125's like this are very softly sprung indeed. Rear sag needs to be 30-40mm max. You are probably bottomed out 2 up! No wonder the bike won't handle - no weight on the front wheel at all. I would look for another shock of the same length to replace stock from another brand:- SV650 perhaps? Something else has to fit or get a much stiffer spring but you'll have to remove it to measure it first before finding a replacement. Dave Moss Host
@GoproNoob The front end you have is way too stiff with 1.0kg springs. Take all the preload out set rebound to one turn out and set compression at 2 turns out. For the shock, leave thepreload in the stock position, set compression at 14 clicks out and rebound a 2.5 turns out. Dave Moss Host
Hello Dave and Editor! Just 2 questions. Why does the "recomended" sag in the back is 30mm to 35mm and in the front 35 to 40mm? I even read in a famous magazine they both sould be around 30mm for the street (for a canyon rider is that ok?), And there is any problem in front and back sag being diferent? Last, you should messure the sag also hot or just the rebound? And does it make a huge difference or just from potencialy very good to perfect? Thanks a lot, Great videos, keep it up.
As he said ball park figures 35 to 40mm for street riding I run 47mm as the roads here in Asia are shit If ran 35mm I have no teeth left But I started at 30mm and worked my up as standard sag was 60mm and my nose was dragging on the ground
@MAREMthenME your spec sheet tells you how much travel you have, so I go off that. No need to lift the wheels off the ground! Forks:- if you know the full range of travel (eg: 120mm) then placing someone on the bike is simple math. Shock:- I will always top out the rear shock to see if there is or is not a top out spring in the shock. It is essential for shocks with no top out spring to have free sag. Remember sag is just information and a simple starting point to go from. Dave Moss Host
@ultrarider666 on setting sag? Because it is a little difficult to do sometimes without special tools and you need help to hold the bike and do some measuring. The suggestions are starting points and that creates a lot of arguments rather than debates, so tensions rise with disagreements. No matter what, it makes the bike a safer and better handling machine, and that some day may save your life. Dave Moss Host
@mooosestang I did a live show on progressive and linear springs that can be found at: ustream.tv/recorded/5350380 Yes progressive springs are very soft initially so they can be a headache when setting sag. Remember that sag is just a known starting point, and then you work from there to make the spring preload softer or stiffer for your needs. Dave Moss Host
@OnTheThrottleTV i know lowering links,just thought it would be possible to do it without,thanks Dave.Just one more thing.All these measuerements for front forks.... How much clearance do i need when sitting on bike,you mentioned in other video when doing complete setup that guy needed about 3,5 inches.
@OnTheThrottleTV Thanks Dave, that's what Erik Buell Racing recommended as well. I also have a 2002 cbr 954 and I understand that it has progressive fork springs. Do you set sag the same for a progressive spring?
Dave Moss Tuning +arno kuhn fork preload should allow you to work the middle 2/3rds of the adjustment range, that can be assessed with a zip tie. As for the shock, you need to manipulate the preload until you have 10-15mm of static/free sag. Hope this helps. Thanks. Do you have a video to assist
Hi Dave, I have noticed that other suspension guys lift the rear and front so high that the wheels are off the ground. Your method seems a bit different in the sense that you don't want the wheels on the air. My question is 1. what is the reason behind this? 2. How do you know how high you will lift the front or rear? What is your guide? Thanks and keep up the good work!
At 05:42, he said that would increase pre load and make the spring stiffer. That's incorrect! Spring rate = Spring stiffness When you change the pre load the spring rate still the same! The spring doesn't get stiffer. You just have add pre load.
@OnTheThrottleTV ... Okay, Im confused. Which is for front? and which is for rear? The fork oil been changed a month ago with lighter weight. Pro RSF 5w fork oil. Thank you so much. I will let you know how it goes, when the weather warms up. I cant ride yet. Its winter here still. Also, Should i go all the way hard then click out from there, or should i turn it all the way to soft and start from there? Thanks Dave.. -Mike
In this video on the R6 u refer to the sag numbers to bo 30-35mm for the rear and 35-40 for the front. Is that a general area for most supersport bikes to have or does this vary greatly between the make of the bike and the year etc etc.
Hi Dave, I have a 2007 CBR600RR. I currently weigh about 205 to 210lbs with my gear on. I'm totally new to suspension set up but thought that I'd dive in last night. I was able to get my rear SAG to approximately 30mm with relative ease. However, I have found that my front forks read roughly 35mm of SAG no matter where I adjust my preload. 35mm is fine for the riding that I do, but I am really baffled how it could be that I can change my preload adjusters (15mm blue hexes on top of forks) dramatically (roughly 12 turns to full hard) one way or the other and see no actual change in the sag. Do you have any idea what could cause this? What have I missed? Thanks, Lance
Hi! Are those numbers appropiate for most bikes or just the supersports? If not, then what's the recommended sag for a ninja 300 (front and rear) both for street riding as well as track riding? Thanks in advance. Great video!
hi I have a BMW 800 GS with race tech suspension front and rear. Can't seem to find the preload and rebound sweet spot setup for my bike. Commute but also endure/adventure riding
Hi Dave, I have a 2009 Buell 1125CR and I've removed all the preload from the front forks. I only have 27mm of front sag, so I'm going to change springs. The stock springs are .95 kg, should I go down to .85 or .90? I weigh 140 lbs without gear.
@OnTheThrottleTVi i tried thist setup, front end was pretty easy and fast to do, but to set the rear at 35 i would probably have to set the preload to the max. I measured the rear sag several times the same way as u did and its about 45mm with the preload almost in the maximum. Should i try to set the preload to the limit and come closer to 35mm? thx
Hi Dave, I'm a bit confused because when you setup the front sag to Daves weight you had to remove all the preload from the forks but in some of your other vids you say if you have to increase or reduce preload to their extremes then replacement springs are required to suit the riders weight. Please can you clarify? Cheers Chris.
If you soften the preload of the spring to it's extreme, purchase softer springs. If you harden the preload of the spring to its' extreme, purchase stiffer springs.
Jimmy, Chris is asking why Dave removed ALL of the preload from the front forks without replacing the springs. He basically is contradicting himself when he removed all of the preload from the springs to get the sag correct.
1tokeover Gotcha! haha That is a good question then... Perhaps he (in the video) was just working with what he had but recommended purchasing new springs.
Hi Dave. I am finding I am getting thrown all over the place on my 2015 xjr1300 (had it out today) What I need to know is on a twin rear shock bike should I still be able to lift the back end up and have that bit of free play at the top . I have set up my fz1n spot on with your help thanks.
So if our sag is too great on a bike with a "simple" suspension setup, like my Yamaha R3, we're going to have to replace the fork springs with a higher spring rated spring?
@OnTheThrottleTV .... Im still on the setup you gave me the first time.. It seems a little on the bouncier side.. i need to firm it a just a tad little bit. What do you mean by in the middle of the toal range? Im not getting that part.
Now, With my weight and 5"7 i gave ya... Whats a really good street suspension setup? like twisties riding?? That's what I would really like to get!! Thanks Dave! -Mike
These are the settings i was trying to ask you about! Are they a must do for street rides? Im about 140 pounds what would be the settings you would suggest? Do i dare attempt to adjust them myself?
Hi Dave I was wondering what down sides there are if there is too little sag? I was told from someone that races in BSB that they run sag rates of 17mm rear and 22mm front on their ZX6. Are their bikes out there that go against the general rule of sag ranges and have you heard of this with ZX6's?
i have kawasaki zzr1400,zx14,i am 5,7 (167cm ) height and about 13 stones (82,5kg),i need to lower bike to touch ground better,what is correct way to do it and keep good suspension settings?can i lower bike just with rear shock spring preload?
Dave, I have a bike with adjustable rear suspension and non-adjustable front. The front is quite soft for my weight. Should I set the rear preload to what it should be for my weight (as in this video), or would it be best to balance the rear suspension to the front so the bike moves up and down as one. The front end wants to wander right after I bank the bike into a curve.
Hi Dave ! I wonder what would be the sag settings for both front and rear suspension if I expect doing only track with my bike? And will the rebound and compression settings be the same than OEM in this case? Thanks
