Dale you give more valuable advice/information than most all motorcycle restoration you-tubers. its that niche you have that makes your channel the best really!!
Thanks for clearing this up Dale. I've looked online, but was never able to find such a clear and decisive explanation. I've been running pre-mix in my TS125, but will connect my oil pump tomorrow.
Thanks Graham, I think your wise to reconnect, like I said...I know there are a lot of folks that think the other way, but it just makes since too me, if you have all those parts directing the oil to the bearing, it will be bad to try to redirect it another way.
Excellent video as usual Dale, I agree the Suzuki oil system is better than the Yamaha and Kawasaki, I messaged you about a problem I had with an oil feed line going to the area around the disc valve on my Kawasaki, and thanks to you I learned of the check valve fitted in the system, if you remember I did try and force oil up the pipe with a pressure can towards the check valve and nothing would even enter the pipe, I thought the check valve was stuck but I later found that the suction of the engine opens the valve from the engine side and its impossible to force oil from the pump to the check valve without the engine running, I took the check valve off the pipe and compared the suction needed to open it with an oil line from a TS100 Suzuki and it was about the same, I must say I was shocked by the amount of suction needed to open this valve, I am in the process of refitting the check valve after renewing the banjo connection on the pump and a new pipe while its all apart, after working on bikes most of my life and just running pre mix until the pump oil got through I failed to spot that there even was a check valve in the system, as they say you learn something new every day. Keep up the good work and thanks for your help when needed. Best wishes from a sunny Wales, UK.
Thanks Richard, like I said, I am not a pro at this stuff, I like you are just trying to pay attention and learn as I go. I dont always get it right but having a pretty good time playing with these old bikes. I am not as familar with the Kawasakis as the other two. But the time is coming, I have a 350 bighorn and a F7 waiting in the wings so they will be coming to the lime light soon. I will be needing some help with those Im sure. I have to reach out to Kevin Bergeron for info on the kawasakis, just dont have the experiance with them.Thanks for sharing your experiance and for following the channel.
I highly recommend keeping the oil pump. The only way to premix a Suzuki safely is to split the cases and remove the oil slinger and drill the mag side hole. I have worked on these bikes for over 50 years off and on. Have only seen one oil pump go bad....that was because the owner didn't keep the oil tank filled.
@@montana2strokeracer You are a Pro with all that knowlege and your Shop with all the Tools and Machines to get the Stuff done right:👍 You do have a good and pleasant manner to explain the things, its fun to watch and learn👍 also in my Age with 60+😀. All the best to you 🍀
great job dale just the info i needed I'm building as ts 250 er 80is model 4 a friend he's done away with oil pump so i woz humming and airing about drilling crankcase to feed main bearing il b drilling it now thanks great info
Thanks Mark. Just to let you know. I made a mistake in the video, I said you need to drill both sides, but you only need to drill the magneto side. I corrected it in the description box of the video. Thanks for following along Mark.
Dale, you can do a dirty resto on those old bearings if NLA. You can replace their internals (balls, inner race and cage) off a standard ball bearing. I use polyamid cages then. Outer race usually has the least wear of all bearing components.
That is a great idea, I have never heard of doing it, but seems logical. Do you have a source for the componets. I just try to pry the old retainer out and snap it in the new bearing. Sometimes it doesnt work though, so it would be nice to have a backup plan. Thanks for following the channel.
@@montana2strokeracer I'm a Suzuki T500 guy but with lots of other two stroke bikes in my garage. T500 engine comes with 5 non-standard ball bearings, 3 on the crank, 2 in the gearbox. There are aftermarket replacements available but of low quality or at high price. E.g. for restoring outer mains you can use parts off a 6305 ball bearing and for center one off a 6306 ball bearing. Unless there is pitting or excessive wear on outer race of course. I just remove the steel cage with Dremel tool and use polyamid one instead. Those Suzuki ball bearings are internally standard size without exceptions, you just have to figure out suitable donor std bearing.
Once you unpin the metal ball retainer all the balls move to one area and then the bearing easily comes apart. I'm not sure I like the idea of a poly ball retainer though, that crankcase environment is quite harsh, I wonder if the heat cycles will make the retainer brittle after a few years.
In the shop manual for the TC 100 in the motocross conversion section they suggest disconnecting the oil pump cable and running premix. It apparently still oils the main bearing.
Hi there, you are correct but in the next sentence after it says to remove the oil pump cable and use a 30:1 mixture, it says "Don't remove the oil pump, or the left main bearing and conrod big end will fail." This I am reading from the TS/TC 90 factory shop manual. My thought is that they think by running the oil pump at idle will give the mag side bearing enough extra with the premix to survive. The rotary valve engines are unique as compared to piston port induction.
That was a very well presented explanation Dale. The flinger/peak on the Suzuki Mag side acts like a Labyrinth Seal, it would be a gamble to expect pre-mix to get past it without the modifications you suggest. The BSA two stroke is much more like the Suzuki set up in principle, both main bearings are lubricated via drillings in the crankcases that allow gearbox oil to access. The crankshaft seals are inboard of the bearings to prevent crankcase compression from exiting and gearbox oil from entering the crank space. There is no oil pump of course, the big end and cylinder is lubricated by pre-mix. BSA did experiment with oil injection in the late 60s, but as usual, management thought innovation to be too expensive and falsely relied on the already failing customer loyalty. Enjoyed going along on the ride, best wishes, Dean.
Thanks Dean, I know this is a very heated topic, but I see a lot of folks getting rid of the oiling system. I have to ask why. The pumps just dont go bad, sometime the lines break, but you can make new ones. Sounds like BSA was way ahead at the time they were making their 2 strokes. I am learning a lot from your series and looking forward to your next video. Your subscriber count continues to go up. The reading I have done, for the most part says it takes on average about 22 months and 200 videos to reach 1000 subs. I think at some point it just goes fast, still waiting on that point. Thanks again Dean.
East German MZ was also experimenting with inboard crank seals but returned to normal (outboard) scheme again. The reason being extended transmission oil intervals which doubled from 10.000 kms to 20.000 kms. Those old MZs have oil trap gallery in the crankcase area instead of regular oil channels from transfer ducts.
@@argo1974R Very much agree, MZ were the people who really made two strokes go. Without Walter Kaaden there would have been no Japanese two stroke invasion, (Once they stole his ideas!). He took rocket science and applied it to motorcycle engine design. My BSA is primitive compared to the designs he was developing.
I worked with a guy who had worked for American Suzuki, your explanation is exactly to factory spec. The Suzuki crank will last so much longer with the original oiling system even Suzuki realised it was too reliable and discontinued it on later models (plus, I'm sure it was far cheaper to drill a hole than add all the slinger parts (I've always called them that as well) The people who don't have a problem with Suzuki's on pre-mix probably don't realise you can hear the main bearing rumble from 50 feet away. The Suzuki oil pump gets bled from the 3 mm screw at opposite end from operating lever, you don't need to remove any pipes. Although I've never had a Suzuki pump go faulty I prefer the Yamaha pump as it is self bleeding if you pull the cable so it's wide open plus it's way easier to adjust stroke if it needs it (I only did two in 8 years) Something you may not know, Honda use a slinger type oiling system on most twins until 1980 (CB 125SS, never sold in USA) The 1965 CB250/350 and 1974 re-designed 250/360 do not have pressure fed big end bearings. I cannot remember if the early 'Dream' (CA/CB 125 though 305) used same system but think they did Yamaha XS 650, being from a the two stroke company is even stranger with a drilling into main oil gallery squirting oil to a slotted big end (two stroke) needle bearing. It means it's very easy to swap original 136mm rods for 144mm Honda CR500 rods to have a long rod motor, use lower crown height (lighter) pistons. Yamaha experimented with various rod lengths when they were racing flat track XS750 I built a few street 650's early 2000's using modified XV750 pistons and liners to get 800cc motors, quite fun
Wow, there is so much to learn, I have very limited experience with Honda, and really 4 strokes in general. I grew up on the old two strokes and worked for a Suzuki, Hodaka, Montesa dealer for several years, so you can see I haven't delt with many 4 strokes. I have always been more of a dirt bike guy myself, the old Suzuki twins and triples were so reliable, that they rarely need any work. I have done some tune up stuff with the 4 cylinder 4 strokes and even the rotary model RE5. Hey thanks again for all the great suggestions and comments, I hope you are enjoying some of these old videos, it's fun making them, and I always try to give the best info that I can. But as we all know, I am just human and make mistakes. But life is about how we learn from them. Thanks again for stopping by the channel.
@@montana2strokeracer Yeah, the triples were pretty reliable but would lay down a heck of as smoke screen on the highway after being trundled around town for a few hours. Back in nthe day, Barton Engineering in Wales did a 500cc water cooled conversion for the GT380 to go racing. Very rare so I never actually got to work on one. In fact, I only ever did one crank re-build on a GT550 which was easier than I thought it would be. The GS four stroke range didn't come out until 1976, apart from carb removal they were very easy to service. Even though I was in a Suzuki/Yamaha/BMW/Vespa? dealers, because I started in the Honda/MZ shop 'across the street' I would work on anything that came through the door. Never made a lot of money but it was so much fun it didn't really matter
Hi Dale, Was very lucky to discover your channel. I live in the island of Malta in the mediterranean. I have a Suzuki TS250b 1977 model which I have bought 47 years ago and probably the last one remaining on the island. After 27 years garaged I decided to start using it again. Cleaned the fuel tank, carburetor, silencer, air cleaner, new sparkplug and it fired up after 5 kickstarts. Marvelous Japanese models! The only issue I have is that there is an oil leak from the oil pump from where the oil control lever shaft goes into the pump. Can you please advise any action I can take? Thank you for your invaluable information.
Hi there, I once lived on the island of Sicily back around 1989. Loved it, the people, the food, and just the life.... great. I loved taking trips around the med. You indeed live in a beautiful culture rich area. Sounds like you have got an awesome bike. sounds like you are doing all the right things to get her back on the road. There is a seal behind that pump lever. I have never seen it serviced by itself though. My thought is the more you use it, the leak may slow down. Another suggestion is to remove the pump and lever and see if there are any numbers on the seal. There should be 3 numbers denoting outside diameter, inside diameter, and width. Those numbers denote the size in millimeters. You should be able to find a new seal and then replace it. You should be able to remove it with a small pick or awl. Hope I have been some help and thank you for hanging out with me in the shop. Love the Mediterranean!
Hi Dale, Thank you for your advice. Will definitely try to do it soon. It is only a small leak and I can still ride the bike. Infact I just returned from a nice sunny drive along the cliffs and countryside. Thank you again and please continue to give us more valuable information and videos.@@montana2strokeracer
Good demo Dale, however I wish you had covered what happens after the oil passes across the shield on the left bearing and enters the oil guide on the crank of the Suzuki system. Centrifugal forces cause the oil to adhere to the perimeter of the guides lip where it then enters the hole and feeds itself directly into the con rod big end bearing. CCI is the most efficient way of lubing a 2 stroke engine, where besides in an intake charge is being mixed in the cylinder, the left main bearing and lower end get a flow of pure oil to them first before that oil also mixes with the fuel.
On a Suzuki T500 (with CCI) rear wall of the cylinder sleeve is lubricated directly through a small oil port. There is no mixing of oil with intake charge. CCI lubricated engines have much less wear compared to premixed or intake mixed oil engines. It's because main bearings/lower rod bearings are lubricated directly with fresh oil rather than with contaminated oil containing combustion residues. I modified an intake mixed oil 2 stroke engine to CCI and it's crank life tripled.
Thanks for your comment, I knew I missed some stuff, but my focus really was more on the mag side main bearing than anything. Suzuki hit a homer with their CCI system, the rod bearing gets oil like you described, plus through the mixing at the carb. Both Mains get the straight oil. I dont think you could improve on it. One thing I have noticed also is when rebuilding the crankshafts with the aftermarket rod kits, the lower pin has a through hole, instead of the blind hole that feeds into the lower rod bearing. So in fact the aftermarket is defeating that part of the oiling system. Thus the lower conrod bearing is only being oiled through the mixing at the intake. Im thinking it would be wise to drill the hole into the rod bearing area, and then plug one end of the pin with a bit of TIG weld so it will not defeat the CCI. Or just use NOS parts. But who knows how long those will last. Hey thanks for your comment, its clear you have a great understanding of the system. Thanks for following along.
This is great, hey appreciate your comment, it is clear that Suzuki was way ahead of the others in lubrication, and your mods to the T500 have just improved that concept. Im sure the other manufactures could have follow the same rules but it is and always has been about the money. They made their money and cut corners, and made more money. Even the cylinders of the Suzukis were made of better materials, I have bored a lot more Yamaha's than Suzuki's. Thanks again for you insight and thanks for following the channel.
@@montana2strokeracer its not difficult to plug one side of the big end pins hole in an aftermarket pin and also remember to cross drill a hole in one section of the pins wall by the bearing race. ALWAYS orient that hole in the pin facing outwards to the perimeter of the crank wheels so the oil will flow out to the bearing from the pins oil gallery through the centrifugal forces acting on it.
I think you will be OK, its not what the factory wanted...but how are you going to fix it. You probably are as good as you can be with out a tear down and finding a correct bearing. I wouldnt worry about it. Thanks for following the channel
@@montana2strokeracer i have the original bearing with the shield. Wish i knew that i could pull the shied and swap it over when i replaced it. I'll certainly hang on to that old bearing. thanks for the replay, keep up the great work!
Hi Dale.could you help me with the oil pump settings on the ts 250 savage 1973,i have read that the line on the oil pump arm needs to line up at 9 o clock when at full throttle ,is this correct ? thanks Hugh.
Hi Dale, thanks, to get the lines to match up I seem to have a lot of slack in the cable , it doesn’t move the arm till after 1/4 throttle, is this right , many thanks again Hugh
Hi Hugh, I can't remember what I used but I wouldn't go much beyond 1/4 inch. Seam like I said what I use in the video, I will have to go back and look. You don't need much the big thing is to chamfer the hole afterword's. Only do the Mag side if you are going to do this mod on a Suzuki, for the clutch side runs in transmission oil. Thanks for hanging out with me in the shop.
5 70's 2 strokes. all injection pumps intact. i dont know what the obsession is with premix. the pumps spend their life in oil. do it to a Kawasaki triple and you will ruin the crank. premix sucks.
I'm with you Dave, I have never seen an oil pump fail, they are in my opinion the most foolproof part on the bike. I use them on all my street trail bikes. If they had it, they still have it. Race bikes, most get premix.
In the shop manual for the TC 100 in the motocross conversion section they suggest disconnecting the oil pump cable and running premix. It apparently still oils the main bearing.
