The distinction of not being able to trademark a generic dress shape is important for people who sew their own clothes too. Had an issue a few years ago because I made myself a red plaid version of the heart pocket JSK from the cover of Otome no Sewing and had some girl trying to throw me out of the community for "making a replica" of an early 2000's JSK with a vaguely similar red-plaid-with-heart-pockets theme that I had never even seen. I used a pattern that I purchased directly from a Japanese import store and made the dress in a really common type of fabric because that's what I happened to have on-hand. Being mad about actual replicas is one thing, being mad because a homemade dress using a pattern purchased from a legit company simply because it coincidentally looks vaguely similar to others in that general style is taking it too far.
100% agree. Replica is one thing, homemade is different and lets be real. Theres like 3 silouettes to choose from and there all gonna look like generic dress -_- Thats ridiculous 😒
This reminds me of a "controversy" a few years back when a designer who was documenting her creative process got in hot water for "stealing" the design of some vintage 70s style shorts. They were just generic 70s hot pants with front applique pockets (like jean back pockets only on the front) and while hers were obviously inspired by the original shorts, they were just that, inspired by, not a direct copy. So just what designers have been doing for centuries, taking inspiration from things they see including other fashion.
I make royaltycore/gothic clothing and I don't use printed fabrics, and I have had bigger brands steal my designs and theres nothing i have been able to do about it, in fact I've even been sent Cease and Desist orders stating i can't name and shame publicly. I'm just one guy, working from a one bed flat in Wales, and it makes me sick to think I could be having a much more luxurious lifestyle if I was getting paid and credited properly for the things I dreamed up.
Back in like 2013 I bought a replica of Toy Fantasy because of Princess Peachie owning some and me being plus sized. It was actually quite a beautiful dress and fit me amazingly. I still regret buying it to this day but being the size that I am and height, Angelic Pretty does not cater to me. I am so happy that so many more brands have shown up and now I can get my hands on pieces! I still would love to eventually own an official Toy Fantasy jsk if i could ever fit into it.
Completely understand, and if Toy Fantasy is a dream dress of your's I suggest getting it altered. Get one in the largest size and then buy another/a couple more so a seamstress can alter the largest stock size jsk to fit you the way it was intended with the extra dresses. Make sure you go to a seamstress that does good clean work and understands what you're looking for.
@@bigdadbeefsticks I think a big worry is also my height. I am 5’10” with quite a long torso. If i ever find it in a price range I can afford I’ll look into it!
@@rebelliouscottoncandyIf you can get the halter version, that should fit fine! I'm also 5'10 and have found halters or straps with elastic in it fit best. A lot of older brand, including AP, use these. You can also use belts or other waist accessories if the dress fits too high. And underskirts are amazing. Melikestea makes custom sized underskirts in different lengths.
As a REALLY new Lolita (Like, I only have one blouse and haven't even bought my first JSK but I'm DYING to) I really am glad you upload videos to this day. A lot of Lolitas don't post on RU-vid anymore or only post on Instagram so you're basically my guiding light. I'm probably gonna make one of my dresses I have into more of a Lolita dress for my first big sewing project. I'm new to cosplay as well and sewing so to make a dress that I will personally wear in many ways would mean a lot to me, so you bet I'm gonna re-watch every one of your videos while making it! Thanks so much for being here for new and old lolitas!!!
Cursed replica fabrics: I remember hearing many years ago that sometimes these printed fabrics sometimes technically belong to the factory and not the brand, and something about the contracts means that the factory can choose to repurpose/resell the fabric. (iirc this was the case with some of the "plain" prints without borders, like say Candy Treat tote bags.) I'd have to dig to confirm, because that might be the case with a lot of the weird non-lolita knockoffs (Though of course it could be just unscrupulous companies that know they won't be punished for international copyright woes). Also worth mentioning for history's sake: There was a whole issue about Secret Shop shoes back in the 00s, who were producing shoes identical in style and quality to Angelic Pretty (and others?) and it turned out to be a similar thing, where they were actually made in the exact same factory as AP, but just without the AP branding, and were technically perfectly legal.
mine was a mary magdalene replica from wish 😭😭 didn’t even receive it until well after buying my first genuine lolita skirt though so at least i had something good by then lol
My memory might be wrong but I believe Princess Peachie got rid of her replicas or sold them. I think she made a Facebook post but I couldn't find it anymore. She does however, own original Angelic Pretty dresses now (there is an old video when she bought her first AP dress).
Had a friend who bought a dress from Baby directly and then bought the replica because the sizing wasn't comfortable for them. This was 2010 so it wasn't easy to get Baby to begin with. I accidentally bought a replica at a swap meet in 2016, and I just wore it as house wear until I found someone who was using replicas as sewing projects in my comm. They're still floating around in the second hand market, and I'm sure there are Taobao sellers making them.
As a plus size female, I own several replicas and I only got them because back in the day unless I wanted my wardrobe to be the same one bodyline dress >_< It was very hard to be lolita back in the day as a plus size person. So happy we have so more options in this day. Now I have a Lady Sloth wardrobe :)
It is important to take into consideration when/if a brand is using their own original print or they have bought a massive amount of third-party printed material. There are some famous dresses (at least one with a very, very obvious boarder print) that are in fact made out of widely available fabric print who's copyright is held by no fashion brand. In many cases these are older dresses before a brand had the option to print their own fabric or they did not have the means yet to hire an artist to do entire prints for them. Also, legally, keep in mind that there is no such thing as being able to copyright the idea of any given print theme or colorway, broadly speaking. Meaning if you make a print that is mostly mint and brown with ice-cream and mice you can't "claim" that combination of ideas thrown together. If you really want, you can go to court against someone and spend a lot of money (in legal fees) arguing they are "attempting to infringe" by getting "too close" to your idea. But in most cases, unless a strong narrative through-line of ill-intent can be proven, this gets thrown out.
One of the main places people are finding/worried about accidentally buying replicas from is Xianyu, the chinese secondhand market. They are still relatively common there but you can watch out for the character 山 (mountain) since it's used to denote replica.
05:40 correction; there were several japanese lolita brands selling internationally in the early to mid 2000s. Btssb was already doing so in 2004 (I know, I bought something directly from them in that year). Aside from meta there was also Milky Ange (did a lot more actual lolita back then), available via email. Kazuko Ogawa (2001), as well as moitie (2004). There were also several shops in europe selling japanese brand officially. And for everything else you could buy with a shopping service. I did for AP and IW.
I'm sure the overhead for Angelic Pretty is way higher than Tillies or H&M, which means they have less money to reinvest in the brand after expenses and taxes.
I got the Shien AP pants!! It was before I stopped buying fast fashion tbh. I was enamored with the concept of a lolita print in the form of pants and figured even if they were bad quality (they are) I now have cute pants I can do grungey things in (I wear them when working in the garden).
I think it's called replica because the world is similar in japanese and English. When you check the translation for knock off and counterfeit it's very different word.
The quality being bad is why we should all avoid counterfeit or copies of any type of clothing. If they were creating items that will last 5+ years, then I think it is fair for people to choose them. The goal should be buy what you NEED, not what you want. If you didn't know you needed it until you saw it, then no, you did not need it. I sympathise with people who only want to dress in alternative fashions. It is tough to get reasonably priced, ethically-sourced/made clothing. In fairness, many big brands are not ethical either. Don't waste money on poor quality items that you will not wear more than a few times. Save up and invest in pricier pieces that will last you a lifetime. Investing into sewing classes would honestly benefit alt-fashion girls/women way more. Learn what suits your body shape before committing.
i know someone who did buy some replicas to get fabric to make pillows from. They would never be the one to be wearing a replica but they really wanted some cute decor to match their dresses
Dream of Lolita was also a really big one back in the day. A friend gave me their DOL Sheeps Garden and I did a comparison to my original AP Sheeps Garden. While the quality wasn't cursed by any means, it was still considerably less.
Imo it’s a good way to get replicas off the market and recycle them in a way that’s not damaging. I also think replicas could be used for extra fabric for alterations of the real piece
I think upcycling the fabric for things that were never made in that fabric is the way to go and if you ever sell on the item make sure to say it was handmade (because it is)
As someone who started wearing EGL in the late '00s, I remember we had more options back then. Multiple Japanese brands already had online stores, you could use shopping services for the others and also for Taobao based Chinese brands like Infanta, also there was Anna House and Western indie brands like In the Starlight, Blasphemina's Closet or Violet Candy. No hate to Princess Peachie or anyone else, the replicas were more normalised back then, but especially for a straight-sized person there were so many options other than replicas.
Counterfeiting is such a rabbit hole topic! I think this vid is a great intro into the Replica history in lolita fashion, but it's wild that no matter how niche, extravagant designs just can't escape companies that want to exploit it. Intellectual property and clothing are a fascinating dive, I'm looking forward to more if you decide to make other videos on this topic! Thank you for another great vid Lor!
Newbies definitely have attacked me for pointing out that Bodyline "heavily borrows" from other brands up to this day (literally claiming things like "maybe Atelier Pierrot stole their Bustle Corset Skirt from Bodyline insteaad")
I have never encountered a replica "in the wild" ( tea parties, events, etc.) They are an interesting piece of lolita fashion discussions and history tho!
I have, but this was a while ago. I don't know how long you've been around, but around 2013 when I first started going to events in person, people were a lot more open about owning replicas and wearing them back then. It's very interesting to see how the community's perspective on them has changed.
10:38 not defending replicas, but saying 7.4 M for one store isn't making good money is ridiculous. going by your comparison, if they had 240 stores ( like tilly's) theyd be making 1.7 BILLION, while tilly is only bringing in 775M. They are making REALLY good money, but of course that's because their products are of higher quality and they charge as such. Dont make it seem as though they arent making large profits XD
I always thought replicas were the term for copies of designs specifically from defunct brands, I guess I was way off base on that! Thanks for digging into this and I look forward to the cursed replicas video :)
Personally I don't agree that it's a good idea to buy replicas if you can't find the original in your size. There are other brands which do cater to plus sizes which are struggling or even closed down (Lady Sloth and Violet Fane for example). Why give your money to some mass production factory who makes their money from ripping off designs when you can give your support to smaller companies out there making beautiful designs at a reasonable price and actively promoting size inclusion.
one thing quality replicas (SECONDHAND ofc) would be perfect for is DIY! the printed fabric would be great for making coordinating accessories, remaking into a different style dress, skirt, or top, or even plushies (or plushie clothes so you could twin) and housewares like decorative pillows
Counterfeit means you made something to look like a trademarked item, and passed it off fraudulently as that official trademarked item. That is illegal because it is fraud. Fashion is not trademarkable/copyrightable because all sewing is simple shapes. Only branded fabric can be trademarked/copyrighted because that is licensable art. As long as your design is your own take on something and you are not trying to pass it off as the original you are 100% fine. Everyone needs to take a stadium of seats. I see this gatekeeping in like every art-adjacent hobby and I'm pretty annoyed. Had someone in the BJD hobby think they "owned" making animal headdresses...smh....
The only place I can think you could possibly get a knock off/replica is Taobao. I when I use the app I will see listings for AP and Btssb dresses. But I don’t speak Chinese so I have no way of knowing if they are real listings for dresses or counterfeit.
some japanese brands like AP do sell products on taobao. taobao also has a lot of mass produced pieces that various shops on there sell from the same source which many people may assume is a replica issue. i rarely see replicas on taobao and when i do it’s obvious because the piece in the picture looks like garbage
I've definitely seen replicas on Taobao, I once spotted a suspiciously cheap Honey Cake listing and when I clicked on it there were multiple sizes offered. There was only a single worn picture that could have easily been the real dress so who knows what the quality was like
It’s been some years and I have grown at this point when I first got into Lolita I was upset I couldn’t wear much at the time triggered my body dysfunction so I was very close to just buying replica since there alot back than of plus past XL. Now if they don’t sell my size I just don’t shop there. Ik that even if I was a size 12- 14 ever again I wouldn’t be able to fit it without alot of alterations wider shoulders etc im not buying two dresses I ain’t rich. So when Haenuli came back I was happy because she rereleased my dream dress Crystal Guardian and I brought it im happy. Lots of lil indie brands with customs now 💖
?? in the early 2010s there were proxy services you could order JP shops from, there just weren't as many as today. i used to get a lot of milklim stuff back then through like i think it was itm-4u. there were personal shopper girls on LJ too. but i definitely think for some people, at least they believed it was easier to contact rep sellers, and for people like OoJia the buyer would give her their exact measurements and she would make the dress based on this, so it was tailor made for them. normal taobao shops do this of course for less money and higher quality but i think for the girls that wanted milkychan no matter what, they were going to get the knockoff. another thing a lot of people complained about was the scarcity of the prints and how for instance AP wouldn't re-release something like milkychan, so the aftermarket to try and get the dress secondhand was absurd. this way they didn't feel bad getting the knockoff since AP wasn't selling the dress anyway. that was how they justified buying knockoffs. there was clobbao as well, the site was in english which made it easy to order from for westerners, i'm not sure which taobao shop it was reselling (?) from though. this is just what i remember from the passionate (to put it lightly) conversations that would happen on the LJ regarding this topic, and then that like EGL bitchy LJ or whatever, it was like GTFO EGL? the EGL secrets LJ... those groups were exploding during the heyday of LJ lol, i watched a lot of them because i like street fashion. it seems fractured now but i'm not on tiktok so idk what goes on there. maybe the knockoffs for lolita are slowing down but i've seen sheinside going crazy with knockoffs of like, popular secret honey and liz lisa sets now that that styles more popular now...i can't remember if their brick & mortar store in harajuku was an event or is there to stay
11:57 as far as replicas being sold nowadays you have to be careful when shopping on Xianyu because replicas are still a huge problem on the CN secondhand market
One of my first bodyline pieces was the fruits parlour replica skirt and it is in fact a glitter print, apart from having the brand name and different lace I’m not sure anyone could tell the difference
In the early to mid 2010s, I accidentally bought a gently used Angelic Pretty replica in a Facebook lolita sales group. I was so happy to find something in my size. I once met two people twinning in the same replica at my local anime convention. 😂And I genuinely didn't know it was a replica until I was trying to sell it. I think if people who called me out had used the term "counterfeit" instead of replica I wouldn't have been so confused. And maybe less defensive? (It didn't fit anymore ) Some people were very nice and said I should report the person in the group who sold it it to me. (Years has passed .) I was and still am plus size. In the early 2010s, I started with bodyline. I did have one Milanoo mishap. (Do folks remember Milanoo?) When I sized out of bodyline , I did invest in a few pieces from Gloomth, one from Dollbee, and one from Fanplus friend. I don't think anyone needed to hear her my life story. but I felt like I needed to get it out of my system.
Es verdad, hace tiempo que en los grupos de compra/venta en México, no aparecen réplicas. O aparecen muy poco y son de segundas o terceras dueñas. Creo que es la única forma de conseguir una réplica actualmente , y sólo las hay de algún modelo muy antiguo. Las marcas chinas, originales, o indie, además de ser la mejor opción en precios y tallas, hacen innecesario querer gastar en una prenda réplica o costosa original
I’ve been thinking about making AP mercator antique shop replicas. The line always been full of my dream dresses and I doubt I will ever find or fit one. But I didn’t know if that was something I was okay to do for myself or if it would still be frowned upon
Replica's back then was understandable, but now there is no excuse. There are so many options out there that there is no reason to buy them anymore and hurt brands. You have original taobao and now more size inclusive clothes. Just buy taobao over a replica. If they don't cater to you then don't shop them, so many people cater to plus size.
replicas are definitely still in taobao and some taobao resellers still sell them and some mark them as replicas. When I started buying my first lolita pieces (in 2015ish) I accidently bought a replica from taobao reseller. I was mortified when I find out, the styling and the cut wasn´t exact knock-off but the print was, I thought I bought just a plus size friendly taobao dress, but later going through lolibrary found out it was a alice and the pirates print replica. I wore it twice after altering it to fit me (it wasn´t plus size friendly just asian XL) for normie events. Know it is seam ripped waiting for dye and refashion so I can make it usable and not feel icky, and the real dress is on my to buy list.
The Depop listing probably got reported and taken down. People have got in trouble for selling legitimate Bathing Ape shoes there because Depop thought they were Nike reps (the style is similar but Bape is a Japanese brand and you can definitely tell Bape from Nike--I have one pair of very pink Bape sneakers I adore!) I haven't ever got a lolita replica off eBay (thank G-d) but they and Paypal did give me refunds when I accidentally purchased Les Nereides and Betsey Johnson jewellery from eBay (yes, the prices were low, but I thought I was getting a second-hand piece, not a fake).
All countrafit is a replicas, not all replicas are contrafited. If you cant trademark or copyright people can copy. Think bridal gowns, how many ways you can use plain white fabric to make a dress? Imagine if black high heals were copyrighted by labuttan? They were made before and will be made after labuttan. "Lolita dresses" have a cut and syle made for little kids for centuries. Until this day is the go to style for little girl's formal wear in my country. My little girl have several lolitta dresses made from local seamstresses. If I can order the fabric using non copyrightable prints am I in the wrong? No. If you didn't invent it you can't prevent people from doing it.
can someone please explain to me the money comparisons? I am a bit confused if tilly's makes $775.700.000 with 240 store and ap makes $7,4 m on one store doesn't that mean tilly only makes around $3.2m on each store? If I am wrong please correct me. I think I am just missing the point or misunderstanding xD
If you do the math further though. Dividing the total yearly revenue by the amount of stores. Something like Tilly's per store is only making roughly 3.2-3.3 million at ((A Singular American Store.)) I'm not saying counterfeit products of AP is good by any means im pro artist for sure, but I think discounting the fact that APs one single American store is doubling the profit of a singular fast fashion store yearly is a mis-characterization of the brand as a small brand, yhey are kind of large. Or maybe medium! Lol for sure it doesn't mean the artists producing the prints for the dresses and the brand producing the dresses themselves should be stolen from at all. Because I don't believe they should be. But just wanted to add in the rest of the math :-)
I haven't gotten to that part in the video yet, but I wouldn't say AP is a big brand. You probably already know the following, I'm just putting it here for others to read because it's relevant to what you brought up. AP is big for lolita fashion terms, but for general fashion standards it's stil a rather niche and small brand. As a result a few wrong moves could put them out of business, they don't have as many reserves as an actual medium or big brand. They only have 3 stores outside of Japan and 15 stores inside of japan. These are all just small boutiques as well. I sometimes see people say they think AP is an actual big brand with a lot of money and that they can absorb a lot of losses. Someone even compared them to H&M because she thought they were both international brands with a lot of sales.
@@itsalwayshalloweenexceptwh5118 oh I absolutely agree! I mean in specification when you compare small brands that AP is a "larger" small brand. And the point obviously still holds that you Definitely shouldn't steal from them! It's not good for them for sure. I just wanted to fiddle the math down because they way it was presented was like AP was making a tiny portion of what other small brands make which isn't necessarily the full truth when you look at the maths that were specifically presented in that portion of the video. I love Lor and fully agree that you shouldn't buy counterfeit Lolita :-)
@@TamaCitris Now that I've seen the entire video it's a very good thing you did the math. Among lolita brands AP is king it seems. Probably even larger than btssb (both have a large audience in asia outside of japan). They're apparently feuding and have been doing it for years.
the comparison of angelic pretty to fast fashion brands kind of invalidates your points. just search for brands at a similar size to them, ones with the same amount of locations at least. This is an insanely niche hobby, angelic pretty will NEVER be as huge as BAS and H&M and stuff, it's just the worst thing you can compare them to! it's like comparing a lemonade stand to coca cola
i disagree with the size. there are many indies know. I also have 3 repilcas from 2010s. One has a print error. the other 2 are okay. But the pale to the real thing.
I'm not actually disagreeing with what you're saying in this video, but 775,7 million divided by 240 stores means that one Tilly's store brings in 3,23 million dollars on average, so half of what AP makes per store. Not sure this is the best comparison, especially considering that the Japanese sales are likely higher.
I know sizing issue is complex issue And Japanese designer tier Lolita brands are quite limited when it comes to sizing But i don't have a right to going to territory of bashing fest when somebody buying the replica just because don't know or sizing issue
Me: "My first ever dress was the lucky pack JSK from BTSSB, I'm not like you. (°^°)" You: "But Brighteyes, what about your second and third dress?" Me: "NOT IMPORTANT, no one talks about that!" ヽ(°Q。)ノ
I should have sent Lor my own replicas for this video😂😭 I kept the only 2 I have, 1 Angelic Pretty and 1 Alice and the Pirates Vampire Requiem print... I got them roughly 9 years ago when I was new and ignorant and since then I've gotten more informed and involved in EGL, and since then I own authentic pieces from each brand now. What Lor is saying here is correct, the quality is terrible. Oh and don't worry, I got my karma for my ignorant purchases. The vampire requiem piece? 1) Lost it in storage for about 6 years, 2) Had to resew the terrible zipper because it wouldn't close properly (still doesn't), 3) It's a very uncomfortable tight fit and the boning actually pokes into the ribs (it's a high waisted corset skirt)... The shape is very awkward because the corset top of the skirt makes the waistline rather low, so wearing it with a petticoat just makes the silhouette clunky and unusual. The print is missing so much detail compared to the authentic print on the black version. Pink roses on coffins are not visible, the pink coloring on the crescent moon is missing, character details are difficult to make out, and the misty fog section of the print is entirely missing in this version. The lining is incredibly cheap and so is the outer material, the lace is low quality too. Both pieces are very obvious rip offs missing either details or features (the angelic pretty one is supposed to have pockets and a built in petty, it does not. The buttons are wrong too.) I kept both and I simply wear them casually if I want to preserve my main pieces. And I obviously do not post images of them on EGL community platforms.
