The BIZARRE MGSV Ending We Never Got To See 

This Unused MGSV Ending was going to be much different than what we got, and would have raised so much more questions than answers! But which Ending do you guys prefer? 🤔 SUBSCRIBE to our Channel to stay updated with our upcoming METAL GEAR SOLID content! 🎬🐍 Thank You, Soldiers! 👍 - Python & Selkan

MGSV is truly a mysterious game, I swear there’s a mystique to this game.

The first casualty of war is truth. I believe Kojima's overarching message from the MGS saga is summed up by Snake "we are not tools of the government". I guess Kojima's is saying, forge your own path in life and don't let the sins of the father dictate your path in life. The cycle of war continues because every old men start wars and young men fight them. MGS taught me to learn from the past and with that knowledge don't repeat the previous generations mistakes. Thanks Python. Never Game Over.

All of Foxhound was founded by the real Big Boss, not Venom Snake. The reason for knowing this is because as a unit, both Grey Fox and Solid Snake infiltrated Outer Heaven under the real Big Boss’s orders under the banner of Foxhound, and in Zanzibar, Grey Fox was loyal to the real Big Boss. Grey Fox knew who the real Big Boss was after Snake’s confrontation of Venom, which is why he was still loyal to the real Big Boss. Venom had no access to Foxhound because the Big Boss secret was meant to be hidden to the world. It was also shown at the end of MGSV that Big Boss had to change his identity, which is possibly why Sniper Wolf knew Big Boss as Saladin. Plus after MGSV, I think it’s safe to assume that Ocelot saw it best fit to leave Diamond Dogs with Eli and Mantis somewhere in between 1974 and 1995 to join Foxhound. Eli and Mantis were problematic and were a liability with Diamond Dogs. Ocelot and Eli also had nothing to do with the original MG games, otherwise he would have appeared in the Outer Heaven incident and with that in mind, Octopus, Mantis, Raven, and Wolf never would of gone with Ocelot and Liquid’s plans in 2005 unless they established a relationship. I know this isn’t technically canon but some elements are, but Big Boss and Roy Campbell founded Foxhound in 1971, and I think it’s safe to say that the hypno therapy Venom Snake went through had no knowledge of Foxhound because Zero and Ocelot had no knowledge of the establishment happening at the time. Once the Patriots AI took full control, they found out about the two Big Boss’s and the time to take action started with the Outer Heaven incident. Zero wanted to protect the real Big Boss but the Patriots AI took it upon itself to Eliminate the Big Boss threat. Zero never wanted this but once he became ill, that’s when the Patriots AI took control. When Big Boss woke up from his Coma, he went back to Foxhound and resumed control which was already established 13 years ago. Miller only joined because he was loyal to the real Big Boss, and when Zanzibar happened, he wanted to eliminate Both Big Boss’s due to manipulation and wanted to train Solid Snake to take down Big Boss. I’m saying all of this because it’s easy as a hardcore fan to put all of this information together and it’s worth talking about and giving knowledge to people, especially because we’re never going to get an MGS6 that explains all of this.

It could that Big Boss was wearing a mask of Ishmael The Eyes and Shaved face must be disguise. Kojima hinted that the Bandaged face is just a Mask

The idea if Ishmael being Frank Jager would be better and make sense.

my interpretation was that it was the medics persona helping himself like in fight club or cod black ops 1 scenario

Is it possible that this ending would have revealed that Huey's disability was an elaborate ruse from the start? A massive callback to Peter Stillman. His lack of combat experience also being fabricated could be seen as a throwback to Raiden, who originally claimed/believed to only have VR training, before the reveal of his past as a child soldier.

I love the Metal Gear series and always will, but MGSV always makes me bitter as a game that could have made so much sense and give me closure, for a series I've been invested in for years. I honestly felt like Peace Walker answered my questions about the canon, MGSV just introduced a bunch of cool what if scenarios such as volgin coming back and hallucinations, only to leave us with an ambiguous story.

Your videos are MGS VI, VII and VIII all togheter mate

It's crazy how a game that's unfinished and will never be fixed, can still end up being a masterpiece.

I think we are never going to know to the full extent how much content/ideas were cut/scrapped due to Konami wanting Kojima out and wanting a product made. I feel a some of the dialogue in the cassette tapes was supposed to be cut scenes, but due to the cost of using the fox engine and the huge amount of money already used in the games budget, some cutscenes were scrapped, chapters and missions cut and just the game map feels like there should be more to do.

I dont think the "I don't like imitations" line from Peacewalker was necessarily setting up the MGSV twist. Remember, at that point the series has already had 3 literal clones of Big Boss, 4 attempts at copying Outer Heaven, a secondary protagonist that the community had decided couldn't live up to Snake, 2 Cyborg Ninja copycats, a whole game of bosses poorly aping their Foxhound namesakes, and a literal Metal Gear sequel that Kojima only even learned existed when it was already about to ship. Even the themes of Peacewalker are largely about how AI is a poor replacement for human soldiers, and how Big Boss feels himself a poor imitation of The Boss. This is less foreshadowing, and more staying on theme.

Actually makes a lot of sense. Some of Ishmael's mannerisms feel more like something Huey would do compared to Big Boss. Like jumping on Quiet instead of proper CQC.

Sir your videos have helped ease my personal phantom pain, from Source Code to 1984, you’ve put the pieces together for those of us who can’t seem to move on. Thank you

Awesome video!! You presented it so well. Kojima’s stories never fail to make me scratch my head and I love it HAHA

Gotta love interesting Metal Gear commentary, analysis and perspective. Keep up the great content🔥💯

*"This story, this "legend", it's ours... I am you, and you are me."* I like the ending they went with.. it felt like a goodbye message from Kojima.

I loved how you put MGS data from MGS4, that soundtrack is so relaxing and COOL

Its truly amazing that mgs5 is the gift that keeps giving. Just when you thought their wasnt any more discoveries, more keep on flowing

Ishmael was a hallucination, Venom and Boss were the same person until the wreck that brought Ocelot into play. Quiet threw the knife at Venom when he tried to attack in a weakened state. The ending where we see Boss on the motorcycle was how we, the player viewed him. Ishmael was never real, but an amalgamation of Boss and Venom, their personalities going their separate ways after the wreck. It’s a stretch, but makes more sense than some of the plot elements displayed.

If we ever get true answers to this game one day, it be amazing. But still Hideo is teasing MGS 5 and peace walker in posts. History repeats itself. Great job on the video guys

I would of preferred a gray fox ending twist

I like the voice over videos, I know it's More work but I appreciate being able to listen to the video sneakily at work like a podcast lol

Great video as always man!

I think a better twist would be Ishmael was really Frank Hunter which would explain the bandages since around that same time Frank had his ears and nose lopped off. And we would have gotten him in another game which is very overdue.

Despite all the wildfires going on here in Hawai’i Still happy to be here and watch your content 🙌🏽✊🏽

WHAT CASSETTE IS THAT??? "The moment any truth is passed on it starts turning into fiction..." I need to hear it fully. Please n thanks. Love your work

So. I've always had the unpopular opinion that the body double was a red herring. The truth mission is a lie. I believe that the player character is Big Boss and he is being brainwashed/has been brainwashed. All the hypnosis isn't to train a new Big Boss but the repatriation of Snake after the events of Peace Walker and msg3. This is the best explanation for the contradictions we see, in my opinion. Consider the often brought up comments from Kaz about Paz in Ground Zero. To delve deeper, it's often remarked that skull face represents the boss's jungian shadow. While this isn't incorrect, he also represents everything the Boss had come to hate about the government and himself and would be the parts of himself that would have to be killed for him to be a useful tool. Ishmael was his better half in this analogy. He became someone else in that hospital and the scene of Big Boss riding off into the sunset was all in his head. That was the ideal big boss being sent away by ocelot.

Forever a mystery in the MGS universe may never know. Love it how Kojima will keep us guessing

While I'm looking forward to the larger vids you're cooking up, vids like this with genuinely intriguing BTS trivia and the implications they would have had on the story are a great way to fill the content gap. 😁👌 That said, I've got a large project I've been working on for the past year that's just about to drop! Kojima's Deception is dead, but I'm still in a dream. I hope you two check it out and enjoy when it drops! *"It is happening again..."* 👀😱

incredibly well put together video

i could swear, that on my first playthrough ishmael fired the gun at the hospital.

Huey no Pinocchio? Yeah right! Good job guys :)

Actually could see it working, if at the first time you play the opening, it's Huey saving Snake. Then at the truth mission, you find out it was part of Huey's telling/lying of events, possibly implied that he told the public/history books that he was the one who "saved big boss" but was then betrayed by them because they're 'black hearted mercenaries'. Kind of like his revenge being to paint himself as the good guy.

Very nice work guys👍 Keep it up

Nice video

I refuse to believe these secrets were left here to not be discovered at a later date.

Perhaps the real Ishmaels are the friends we make along the way! xD On a more serious note though, at some point in time I thought Ishmael had the bandages around his head because he had swapped faces with someone else (most likely with Venom Snake)

Maybe the TRUTH will come after 9 years ?! It’s my last hope

I’m so glad that the close captioning works because it was kind of hard to follow everything you were saying. But great video! Thanks for posting

What if emerick got his ability to walk after exposing to the parasite, and got genetic super powers like Quite invisibly and Kaz high senses.

I swear, just walking around the open world carrying out generic ops and resource hunting feels like somethings happened, or something is about to happen, like every footsoldier and Diamond Dog soldier is just waiting for something to happen. A perpetual state of waiting for an in game event to take place.

A true love of a series❤

I think it could have worked, using parasite therapy. Seeing Huey try to save Venom to make up for creating Sahelanthropus under duress would have been cool and at least align with the character development in Peace Walker... Huey in MGSV felt nothing like the character in Peace Walker..

When a concept can't come into fruition due to MGS standards, then you know it's REALLY wild! 😆 I think if Kojima went with his original concept, he may have worked it out to where it makes sense, but I don't think it would have been as great to what we actually got. What we have just seems to flow better (Even though I feel it's just not yet complete). As great as Hideo Kojima is, it is always good to have a supportive team to help in pulling the reins just a bit before the director gets too carried away!

It's a shame they never finished mission 51 to many plot points they never finished or addressed. Would have been cool to end it with solid killing venom like in the last day of outer heaven fan clip.

I am landing on a mental manifestation: the things Ishmael did Venom did. But he saw it as Ishmael helping him.

Based on this, it seems as though they swapped Huey with Big Boss and Big Boss with Venom. I've long thought that MGSV was meant to have a 5-act structure, and that the Diamond Dogs you build up in one half would be taken down by Big Boss when you swapped places halfway through - a final base infiltration where you take on Venom as Big Boss, foreshadowing the future battles between Snake and Liquid, and with Venom visually distinct as a consequence of the bone fragment sticking out of his head. After all, we know that Big Boss goes on to work with Foxhound and infiltrate the US, so, to me, it would make sense. We also know that idea of clones, DNA, memes, legacy, duality plays a huge role in the whole Metal Gear cannon. So swapping Huey out for Big Boss would make a lot of sense: him, Ocelot and EVA are the only characters who are truly in the Ishmael role at that point in the story. They're characters whose allegiance isn't to Diamond Dogs or to America/Cipher (really Zero/The Patriots). And for the whole Moby Dick comparison to work, Venom and Diamond Dogs need to go down and we know they do, too. By the time of Outer Heaven, neither Venom nor Diamond Dogs exist in a narrative sense prior to that final twist that has the air of a rushed ending thought up by Konami when they stopped Kojima working on MGSV. This also makes a huge amount of narrative and thematic sense, too. If we look at Kojima's past MGS games, they all usually operate with a prologue, five acts and epilogue. They function as an initial incident which sets up the events of the story. Part one establishes setting and characters. Part two deepens the mystery and veers off into characters that don't feature significantly in the ending. Part three is all journey and complications. Part four is where the reveals and twists start to come. Part five is the massive showdown. Then the epilogue recontextualises everything. In MGSV, we only really getting setting and characters and an initial mystery in the grander Metal Gear narrative - both 'Ground Zeroes' and the entirety of 'The Phantom Pain' only really set-up the true antagonists of the series: Zero and The Patriots AIs. They are the true Moby Dick that they are chasing, but, in order to do so, Venom Snake and Diamond Dogs need to take a long hard look at themselves to set out on this journey - by facing they're mirror opposites, the similarly identity-less Skullface, a man so lacking an identity he has no face, and his Cipher faction, another rogue military organisation like Diamond Dogs. They see the warning signs but rush on regardless. Chapter Two then starts building on this and is where the game ends. We have the mystery of a mole in DDs, with fingers not just pointed at Huey but also at Miller by Codetalker. We know for a fact that Ocelot isn't being honest given how close he has previously been to Zero, Big Boss and EVA, too. We get the beginnings of learning about Les Enfants Terrible. The whole Paz storyline is the first hint that Venom is going insane, much like Ahab, and the cut Kingdom of the Flies shows that Venom would become so dangerous that he shoots Liquid - who never actually meets Big Boss, as he is supposed to. Where it ends doesn't remotely line-up with what we learn in Metal Gear Solid, either. How does Miller get in Foxhound's good graces enough that Liquid can masquerade as him helping Solid Snake? How does Ocelot end up working with Liquid when that kid has no reason to trust him at all? Then there are the obvious characters missing from the story: the African setting cannot have been thought up without a plan to introduce Grey Fox; the Soviet antagonism was obviously setting up Gurlukovich and his reputation as the Russian Big Boss, another mirror image for Snake/Venom to face; and where the heck is EVA, or many of the other survivors of Snake Eater and Peace Walker? What about the sequence at the Normandy beach landings hinted at in tweets by Kojima? Then there is the hint that with so much cloning going on, Paz reappearing and her story having such a weird and poorly developed ending, and Paz and The Boss AI both having names hinted at as being "peace", I always thought it obvious that Les Enfants Terrible started with cloning The Boss to create Paz, not that she was just some random child soldier. For me, this indicates that the game was more likely to go something like this: Skullface attacks Diamond Dogs; Venom is then put in place to go after Skullface whilst Big Boss is brought in to Cipher/America to again turn him into their poster child; act two sees Venom Snake start to slip into madness via hallucinations and the general weirdness that surrounds him; chapter three would then see Big Boss making peace with Cipher/America to take them down from within whilst Venom declared all out war (war being peace in Orwell's 1984, and the obvious implication of that title card, as well as Peace being a reference to both Paz and The Boss) and become an absolute monster in pursuit of his revenge; this would leave part four for the switch back to Big Boss either at the start or end, where the finale would then see Big Boss "taking down" Diamond Dogs in a base infiltration more or less the same as the multiplayer (where you invade the bases others have built up over the course of their games, the kind of meta twist Kojima loves, and a potential game changer as you would create the final level, essentially), before Big Boss stops Venom Snake; the epilogue would then reveal that Big Boss actually saved many of the soldiers to form Outer Heaven with the purpose of stopping Zero/The Patriots AIs, recontextualising his role in the series as a whole as he learns that his "world that will always have a place for soldiers" was as flawed an ideal as The Boss's world peace and Zero's extreme control to keep people safe. Then, we find out that they planned out the events of Metal Gear through to Metal Gear Solid 4 as a way to ultimately free everyone to make their own choices, with Big Boss, like The Boss, sacrificing himself for his true mission. The ultimate tragic hero. Thus, Ahab, aka Venom Snake, descends into madness and sinks beneath the ocean at the end, whilst Ishmael, aka Big Boss, learns the folly of chasing whales like a madman and decides to wait for the right moment to strike... like a Snake. But, the flaw in this is simply one I stated earlier: we don't know what was going to happen as we only just got to the point in the story where things kick off when the game was ended prematurely by Konami firing Kojima. Certainly, we didn't get the full game. So we can't know where it was heading or where the story would have truly ended up as a result. I just think that given what we do know, and the various gameplay elements we did see, that this is likely where the story would have ended up.

Oh man... I've played the game on all five systems, I've read the books (Moby Dick, Lord of the Flies, 1984, The Bible) and I wasn't even close to what I saw in this video . Sometimes I made too much one-to-one comparisons, sometimes I thought too much on the meta level and missed too many details. A very well done video, even if I had to turn on the subtitles because I couldn't understand everything acoustically. I think that Kojima couldn't implement some of what he had planned and had to make compromises with a lot of half-finished things like the Lord of the Flies mission in order not to leave the game with a completely open ending. But Big Boss is sort of like O'Brien in 1984 when he told Winston he might not recognize him next time he met him because he could change his whole appearance, which would explain Ishmael having both eyes. However, O'Brien belongs to the Inner Party, so this thesis does not work. Emmerich's role as Ishmael is also difficult, since he fits well as an observer and Ismael strays from the hunt for the white whale and has to be convinced by Ahab, but nobody leaves the Pequod alive, but Emmerich is sent away. Then again he dies by drowning as it says in MGS2, which again equates his end with that of Ishmael.

I died laughing when I heard Big Boss say he hates imitations cigars. 😂 How did Ocelot left that very important detail out while he was washing Venom's brain. Plus I wonder how many players realized Venom was a body double soley from the fact he was hitting the vape pen.

Im happy Ive experienced this game series in my life time because it compliments many movies in one art piece/series . I know it will never be a second Snake or Big Boss. This already took 30 yrs to build a legend.

Kojima was in Usada Pekora chat, when she was playing MGS.

Mostly wish we had the campaign be more long and tie into metal gear 1 where we see venom or big bosses hair go gray as they get more morally gray which would have been cool

If they ever remaster or remake MGSV it would be really cool if they got David Hayter to record the voice of Snake in the hospital scenes, putting on a fake voice to hide his identity, but then leave Venom Snake voiced as Keifer Sutherland. Then that would explain why Venom sounds different the whole game, because he's not Snake.

I was just playing Phantom Pain on PS3 for a little bit (hadn’t finished it by the way, though I watched tons of spoilers and theory vids, like the ones on this channel. I think the ending did more than what Kojima planned for. Left us filling in the gaps, like a conspiracy theory. This wouldn’t work with most games, and you’d think this wouldn’t fly in Metal Gear. But it’s that whole thing with the brain damage, really turns up the question, what’s real to Venom Snake, he’s seeing it, but is it really there? Or about how he’s the puppet being told what he saw wasn’t what it was and we are revealed to truth. Epic way to end a series, keep you wanting more

Obviously Ishmael is Chico, who survived the helicopter crash and has grown up during the time that venom is in his coma. This gives him literal years to perfect his big boss impression, fooling everyone into believing BB was the one who saved venom.

Offcourse.."nanomachines son"

If 2 + 2 = 5 I have a spin on the game that rewrites the entire timeline AND ties up the series nicely.

Assuming it's not a hallucination, the Huey/Ishmael twist could work if it was revealed the real reason he could walk and even fight (safely but poorly) was an early version of Gray Fox's exoskeleton tech. The tech lineage from Zadornov's (seemingly unique at the time) hand to Grey Fox's exoskeleton is uncharacteristically blurry for MGS. It's also suspect that Para-medic could suddenly become a god-tier roboticist and invent it, all while doing the genome therapy experiments on Fox, all in less than 3 years, even if she outsourced manufacturing. Madnar probably isn't an option either, timeline-wise. Huey has the robotics skills and direct personal incentive to invent the basis for it, but not the advanced medical knowledge, skills, and industry connections. There's plenty to work with there for a subplot which explains that The Patriots already had access to a predecessor tech that she studied much earlier on, which allowed her to invent Gray Fox's exoskeleton in such a small amount of time alongside other projects. Maybe tie that in to whatever's going on with the mystery of her death date, and "Dr. Naomi Hunter."

good stuff

I was quiet dissapointed by the ending and the Story in general. I World live to See, the Story of the 2d-mgs-games in a modern game

that is a really tough question. and i have honestly no idea, how it would work with huey as ishmael other than he would be only a narrator. the whole opening sequence would have to be changed. if i could ever ask kojima a question about his games (not about the konami fallout, or if mgsv was finished) it would be defo THIS question.

Ngl, this goddamm game is the weirdest game of the whole series, and they all had their fair share of weirdness.

And to think they went on the record saying that Peace was the correct way they wanted the game to end. It does lead up into the ending of MSX's MGS2 story but it still felt empty.

I really do wish that this ending wasn't spoiled for me the year the game was released

Emmerich MGS1: Its all my fault. Emmerich MGSV: Its not my fault.

People talk about the lost content and how we never got the full ending... I think the real missed opportunity involved David Hayter. Kojima mentioned that his original plan involved going back to the Ground Zeros setting and do something never done before. What if, after finishing MGSV, if you went and did a replay of GZ then it was the voice of Hayter for Snake? They could also have used Hayter the second time through the hospital for the voice of Ishmael if they wanted to clear up that up as well...

As mysterious as MSGV is. I think how it played out was brilliant as is. Huey “being” Ishmael would of been a complete mind bender and wouldn’t make any sense. Just very sad that we didn’t get to see the very last of MSGV and what events took place after.

The more I look into this game, the less I truly comprehend about this game.

Not only are you my prime source all things MGS, but you are truly one of a kind. Your presentation and delivery are just on point as far as deconstructing a game and analyzing it piece by piece. You are the best game dissector on RU-vid.

I've played through all of the MG games from the first two on the NES. I have been able to get S+ rankings on almost all of the V missions and I prefer the ending that was in the game. It makes the story even deeper and better connected to the first games. I really just wish he had been able to finish it as he wanted and wasn't shunned before the end. It's my favorite game ever and a masterpiece.

David Hayter should have voiced Ishmael.

when I first played this game I thought Ishmael was Solidus, hence the same voice he has to big boss and two eyes

Ah... the wishes i had for this story are much much far off what most people would have. I personally would have wished nothing would have gone wrong. An alternate ending, where huey is not a traitor, where the MSF spirit lived on, big boss remained big boss, the child soldiers didn't escape and all lived peacefully ever after T^T. Because yes, i'd trylly fallen in love with the whole MSF physiologie. Their own little country admist the ocean, no borders, living off of helping countries in wars and what their spoils of wars.

Can you make a video based on the MGS book (2008) by Raymond Benson? There may be some information in the MGS novels.

What If ishmael isnt big boss or a figment of imagination... whatbif hes a kojima self insert. He hid in the promo of mgsv as ishmael and you save him in a side mission. Yeah its thin but think on it. even the end when ocelot meets "big boss at the van" then sends him on his way. Well what if he was actually saving kojima,after saving you.

This is the game that made me love the series and play the other 4 MGS games.

8:11 to answer this question. I believe "Ismael's" role would have been completely different to what we got in MGS:V perhaps even the whole hospital introduction wasn't even a thing during the time Kojima had plans of making Huey Ismael.

I always wonder where are you from Selkan?

Ismael is huey emmerich? nahh its impossible in history of huey hes born with birth defect thats why hes using exoskeleton plus hes a scientist wanting to go in ourterspace

What if the bandages represent that young psycho mantis was causing him to hallucinate too? In the boss fight in MGS1 the statues had bandages. Maybe young Psycho Mantis could do that while being with Volgin/man on fire. I think that points to him in a way.

Jes!

That would explain Ishmael peeing in the corridor where they were laying prone next to the dead bodies.

That second guy who was helping I feel was either master Miller or grey fox.

It's Ishmael, yo. Shhhmael. Love your videos

It is odd that big boss would be venom’s body guard, not too mention big boss is a master at cqc and could have easily beaten quiet considering she hadn’t gotten the parasite treatment yet and didn’t have her abilities. Venom snake was able to get her on the ground with cqc when she had her superpowers.

So the whale is America, and the Big Boss is Russia.

The more time that goes by, the more I think Venom should have been Chico and not the medic. A big missed opportunity by Kojima IMO.

The only way Huey could walk again would be parasites, so yeah, it's not outside the realm of Hideo's imagination.

Critical detail could be what Ocelot said: 72 was start of Zero madness ( children project ) and moment when BB was in only coma. In tapes he admits he is quiet sick up here. BB hated him becose children...V could be Zero / Hallucination. He talking with himself as Skull Face, and entire V just a VR.

I mean, you'd just have to rewrite that first episode. Huey would never be able to move like John, but he could still get Medic out. It'd just be completely different.

😎👍

I want make a channel like you How do you use the music of the game, but RU-vid does not give you a copyright tag?

I had hoped that the game would have ended as solid snake being the final boss, but of course, no matter what you always lose playing as venom I love the game, even though it was unfinished and hope it gets a chance to shine as it should someday

This game makes you always to double think stuff like how many of the stuff we witnessed were real or a hallucination i mean shit the whole game could be a dream at this point or a false story being said by someone

Crazy

It always bothered me that it was supposed to be big boss saving you from hospital but he was a total amateur who couldnt fight

MGS-V current story make sense then the Huey one. If Kojima and Konami relations didn't sour or worst treatment. It would be a plot twist to see. But a final message for Kojima to us Fans is a proper ending before the series will be change forever without Kojima vision

Well if you kill “big boss” in MGS1 but he meets snake in the graveyard in MGS4 that means it would have had to be the double… right?