The COMPLICATED Legacy of St John Paul II w/ Fr. Gregory Pine, O.P. 

Whether or not JPII’s pontificate was good, I do not know; what I do know is that I was lost in Protestantism, and his pontificate brought me home.

I loved JP2. His bravery against the culture of the 20th century, his defense of the Polish people, his defense of life and family, his strength in disciplining liberation theologians. He inspired many in my generation.

I'm only 10 minutes in and I wanna say that I love your honesty! So many Priests today would beat around the bush but you are stating all of the huge parts of this modernist crisis that we're in.

JP2 was hated by the demons. Some of these demons complained during exorcisms that JP2 stole many young people's souls from their clutches through his worldwide evangelism of the youth during his long pontificate. JP2 was an extremely charismatic Pope who travelled the world spreading the gospel. We were blessed to have had JP2 as a Pope in my opinion.

As a historian I discovered some actions of great saints that were very unreasonable and shortly after their deaths others had to fix the results of those very well motivated but "wrong" decisions. I think we are not very used to deal with the complexity of a person's life and since now we have the internet its very easy for us to point the finger.

Very informative and balanced video. I think going forward, we have to deal with having way more information about the saints than we used to have. They were great people, but not perfect.

I think we need heroes and no one is perfect. Leaders are human and do things that will certainly be judged harshly in the future (or now). If someone has to be perfect to be a hero we will have no heroes, ever.

I am humbled by this young man! At 56 years old, I have somewhat despaired - it’s very encouraging to see a bright young man acknowledge a difficult situation, and approach it with hope

I am a traditionalist who attends the old Latin rite and who harbors the same misgivings about JP2. This is one of the most reasonable and honest discussions of the topic I've heard. The problem in reacting to the conservative Catholics who formed a cult of personality around JP2 is in reacting too strongly in the other direction. He did face a very difficult time and navigated out one of the most difficult places, Communist Poland, so we have to keep that in mind.

Great thoughts Fr. Gregory!

I think sometimes you need to step outside of the US and really see that the world is bigger than you think. The Church is doing good and growing in many places such as Africa, Asia and Latam, and that is really thanks to JP2. JP2 in fact fought aggainst many theological problems comming from Latam, and helpend to fix some problems the church had.

Main takeaway: ‘The modern world is Crazytown.’ 😆 Great video!

I live in Poland and I can tell you that the hate against the church is what is driving the people who hate the church to malign his name. As per appointments the Pope appoints based on recommendation from the Congregation of Bishops and he would rely on the head of the dicastery to have conducted due diligence. The fact that Benedict XVI appointed good bishops maybe be based on the fact that he had a lot of information about the clergy especially the bad ones by the virtue of his office which enabled him to have dossier of bad clergy.

Most candid I’ve seen Father Gregory and it’s 👏🏻👏🏻. His description of the modern world v Holy Mother Church 🔥🔥

JP2 inherited a mess let's be honest. He did the utmost he could with that he had. Between rebellious clergy (even in his closest circle), growing scandals emerging from decades ago, an increasingly atheistic and pagan and degenerate society and a culture that was more diverse than ever before in history I think JP2 did a pretty good job. It could have been a ALOT worse. When you look at the ballot votes of the 78 conclave, he wasn't even on anyone's radar. He ended up getting the majority vote. HE WAS CHOSEN BY GOD! We may grapple with some things that occurred but he truly was a good and holy man. Naive at times but he was indeed holy. His entire catalog of writings, sermons, encyclicals will be praised by the Church unto the end of time. God bless St. JP2

Jp 2 was human not infallible in every thought, word, and deed, he didn’t know the interior life of everyone he met. No one can do that but God. But his encyclicals and audiences were amazing. He was amazing.

Such a pleasure to listen to. God bless 🙏

BRILLIANT! Thank you so much for being a constant source of faith, wisdom and wit!

I love Saint John Paul II. Yes he made mistakes and maybe in the future we should wait to canonize people so soon but he really reinvigorated devotion to the Blessed Virgin, love for the Eucharist, the youth, Priesthood, etc. in the wake of the post conciliar chaos.

Wisdom and brilliance. Thank you for your service.

One of the things that some of the critics below share with the modern world is its mercilessness. Two of the great things that stand out for me are his zeal for spreading the Good News and his diligence in teaching (a large number of landmark encyclicals). He fought against heresy, e.g. in the field of moral theology. He didn't get everything right on the practical level. So what?

Well, Jesus himself picked Judas… so leaders don’t always make the “right” picks. JPII lead people to seek holiness, to love Jesus Christ. I think that is his most important legacy, by far. Regarding the modern day - it’s like any era, we need to make the Eucharist the center of Christian life. I also think it’s time we more boldly pray as His Church for the conversion of all Protestants, and Mormons, and Muslims, and Atheists - and that the Orthodox reunite with us. We don’t fully appreciate the power of intercessory prayer. We need to do all we can to bring Christ to this world, and all in this world to Christ. Our God waits in every Catholic Church for all. How can we shirk our responsibility to tell the world this?

Thank you Father! It was helpful :) Love your article on Magnanimity!

God Bless you Father Pine for having the courage to say this.

Thank you. You always speak with intelligence, wisdom, and prudence.😊

Very well said! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Father

You have mentioned so many things I would love to learn about! All those movements in theology sound so interesting!

Wonderful, thank you. I'm in!

I’m grateful to hear your comments about how tiresome it is to obsessively focus on The Second Vatican Council. It’s as if we’re all obsessed (in the pathological sense) with VII, as though it were “the end of (church) history” itself. And it’s even more complicated that Pope Francis seems to be completely upending the (what seemed to be) authoritative interpretation of the Council through his predecessors’ pontificates. Roughly 60 years later, and we’re back at the start of this whole “interpretation and implementation” debacle! Will I still be hearing from everyone about Vatican II when I’m 80? Lord have mercy! I wish we could just move the heck on, like we’ve done with literally every council prior.

Insightful remarks. God bless.

this was super helpful. Thank you!

The freshest lens to see the complicated legacy of John Paul the Second is through one of ecumenism. A myriad of questions open up. Did he succeed in uniting the church? To a degree. Did he bless the world with a new kind of papacy? Undoubtedly. Did he increase the rigorous doctrine that has upheld the body of the faithful for two millennia? Yes and yes. The only thing left for us to understand is how the man can be seen as the saint he is now canonized as rather than the person he may have been outside of the holy office. I think history will be kind to Karol Wojytla as well as to John Paul the Second: his seamless doctrine of the importance of conscience and human dignity will see us into the 21st century and the future age thereafter.

Thank you for this, Fr. Pine. Such a clear and valuable analysis!

Well said, especially at the end.

POPE ST. JOHN PAUL II: “To you, immigrants who find yourselves unwelcome in the lands where you have moved, we send words of encouragement. The Church has walked alongside generations of migrants in the march for a better life, and she will not cease to stand by you with every kind of service. To seasonal workers who toil stooped under the sun to provide for their families, we unite ourselves in solidarity with you in your quest for just working conditions.” - Synod of Bishops, December 9, 1997

Thank you for your well balanced explanation.

Nuanced and interesting, like always. Thank you Father

The whole “Pachamama” thing was not an act of idolatry. Watch Reason and Theology’s video about it.

Thank you

Born in '66, I saw John Paul's pontificate esp as a Catholic, take on every error in culture & Church from the 60s & 70s & changed those worlds. He revived terrible Catecesis;Eucharistic Adoration; devotion to Mary & the Rosary; Priestly formation; Ignited the Pro Life movement; understanding why Communism strips man of God's dignity. Reaffirmed God's True Feminine Genius; the Sacramental nature of relationship & marital union & inspired the most holy group of young priests I've ever met. He was largely responsible for the quick end of Soviet Communism. Recall his Very public reprimand of the socialist Nicaraguan priest Fr. Ernesto Cardenal & imposing ‘a divinis’, banning him & 4 Marxist priests in 1984 from celebrating Mass & the sacraments, which Pope Francis lifted in '19. In a growing hedonistic, Marxist, sexualized, materialistic world he went out as none before to engage & transform that world & Ignited the Youth of that world to see & seek holiness. He reaffirmed the God given dignity of the human person and showed us how to live and suffer with Faith. In a world where governments & media turned against him for his stance on Abortion, Contraception and Devine Femininity & Masculinity he drew thousands to Mass and millions to his death. He didn't call Vatican II or write all it's contents. He was still yet a "junior" to most clerics there. Imperfections sure. I don't think he believed priests could be that sexually corrupted. I don't blame St Thomas Aquinas for the modern rejection of good philosophy, systemic theology or ignoring his writings. I used TOB with teens & they got it. I don't blame St. John Paul II for those who turned to materialism, sex, TV & social media instead of his teachings. Look at the fruits of his pontificate in the context of his time & the fruits since.

I just wish I understood his references more. I am a cradle Catholic having been educated in Catholic schools all my life through college. I got about half of his references. As an adult I am always learning more but sometimes I want to shy away from understanding the modern world and the church and just pray, worship, receive the sacraments, and ignore as much as possible of the modern world. I guess what I mean is that I want to focus on my faith, my spiritual life and works, my love of Christ and his church rather than always thinking about the societal interprets of it. I love his ending thoughts about being in the world and not of the world.

Fr Gregory, unlike many of the Church people I talk with is not afraid to tell it like it is. We don't need to lie for, enable, protect or otherwise encourage bad conduct.

Loving your book! Have a Masters from your alma mater, and mentored in TOB under Bishop Olmstead's JP II Institute for TOB & Culture, so love JP2's Theology of the Body. His Trinitarian anthropology which fits nicely with Vatican II's focus on Communion of persons, does not appear in many priest's homilies. We need women teaching TOB. Our diocese has added TOB to their formation, and my husband and I are lucky to be presenting this important development of doctrine. As a woman, I am not uncomfortable with the Jesus as the Bridegroom and the Church as bride analogy and can help men embrace this idea of receptivity more easily perhaps? Keep us in your prayers! (I have also presented TOB to 8th graders for a decade.)

Buy my book! Boom!! 😆👍 Keep up the good work Father!

I am a protestant and know this man is a genius who spoke the truth to all men, to all the ages of time. This should of been titled, "A word to the Christian World of Late Modernity."

Thank you father.

Thanks!

Watching on JP2's feast day. I really appreciate the thought you're putting intk the vital issues of our modern age. I've been writing a bunch of Catholic inspired poetry trying to make sense of our modern age I think you'd enjoy.

Good talk thanks

Most ordinary Catholics in the pews are completely unaware of these controversies. I think they will pass long before JPII's legacy.

This is great

Word.

7:52 "The modern world has no rapport with the past, because she hates it; she has no rapport with the present, because she manipulates it; and she has no rapport with the future, because she doesn't care, provided that everything burns."

Fr. Gregory, this video was mistitled. It should have been titled "The Complicated Situation We Are In As Catholics in Today’s Modernity".

Thank you for addressing this topic. Sometimes John Paul II's title of "Saint" totally absolves him and his legacy from all criticism.

You got it down, thank you

Wow awesome! Could you please debate one of the Dimond brothers on Sedevacantism?

I appreciate trying to address these issues but was more confused about the points about modernism, St. John Paul and how to address them, than before.

I don't think u do the gravitas of the man justice. I watched the generalissimo of Poland tremble in his presence. You have to go back to the ancients to find anything remotely similar.

I have to say every single word said here was unexpected.

Ah. So he died 18 years ago and he's a fully cannonised saint. Must have been proper Holy.

They quickly canonized all the V2 popes after their death but traditionalist popes like Leo XIII, Pius XII didn't get canonized very revealing of who is in charge of Vatican right now.

Thank you for this. I've been kinda conflicted about a lot of this. I love jp2. Even got baptised on his feast day. But a lot of the stuff that's been coming out has been making me really uncomfortable. Especially as a child of a parent who was a rape victim. Like I've seen and had to live through the absolute hurricane of trauma that causes and to know jp2 may of been involved in a cover up. It makes my heart hurt. And I feel awful for the families connected. And I don't want them to feel like I am dissmising their pain by trying to defend Jp2

How about JPII spreading the ecumenism heresy as demonstrated through Assissi. A Saint? Hardly!!

I may be wrong but the prime directive the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and the religious is to be custodians of Sacred Tradition and lead souls to heaven. Please explain how that’s going.

We need people like you to become Cardinal and hopefully Pope.

We should mention Saint Faustina and Divine Mercy Sunday if we’re going to discuss JPII 👍 I wish the Church would slow down the canonizations of people recently deceased and stick to Saints whose legacies are firmly established, though. It’s uncomfortable to see a person venerated start to come under attack from the potential skeletons in the closet. Why this obsession with “now”? Doesn’t seem healthy as much as emotional. But what do I know. Seriously, I’m just sharing my thoughts. Open to other perspectives.

Excellent video Fr Pine. You dumbed it down enough for me to understand what you were saying! I'd love to learn Thomism but the academic vocabulary used by Dominicans makes Bishop Barron’s vocabulary sound like an undergraduate professor.

Father whose autobiography were you referencing about Stalin & the priest workers? Thank you for your considered views 🙏🏼

@frGP-OP Any takes on Michael Lofton's interview with Fr. Dragani?

Maybe I have misunderstood that part but accusing JP2 of cryptomarxism is preposterous. He is remembered in Poland as a staunch critic of this ideology actively facilitating the end of communism in Poland.

Nice commentary. Going too much in each direction is going to make us fall. Reason needs to prevail alongside faith. Fides et ratio!

To paraphrase Matthew 7: 5 "You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye." In this case: "You hypocrite remove Osiris' phallus which you call righteous from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove Our Lady of the Amazon who you call Pachamama and a sin from your brother's eye."

Desuetude, eh ? 😉 Anyway I liked this much Father Pine, you and others, such as the entire Thomistic Institute are candles on lamp stands for us ... Keep on !!

you make me wonder about the previous times where we look back and we see the heresies of the world and we see the synthesis of those interactions with the Church, but I wonder if we shouldn't also look at the positions prior to those "revelations" that help us see how the Church has grown through those times and gone deeper into divine revelation because it was challenged in one area or another? What are those areas where we are currently being challenged and where are we being called to go deeper into revelation to help us make sense of whats going on around us. Not sure if that makes sense. God Bless the Church Militant and all who are called to lead it.

I think you miss two important aspects of St John Paul II. His holiness and the Cross. I think his love of the Blessed Mother is related to that, but maybe it should be a third central importance. The gift of the Illuminative Mysteries and his grandfatherly exhortation on the same, and his Encyclical build from this. I frankly don't understand the springtime he hoped for. But I dare not ignore the prophetic vision that he gave us. Now, the mess with the world, the flesh and the devil, and dealing with the collapse of academia, of course I expect profound analysis from a Dominican, but with the focus on preaching and somehow mendicant. You know on missions how broken and hurting the world is. You study St Dominic, St Catherine of Sienna, and in a brotherly way St Francis. I worry that academics lose the spirit of prayer and devotion, as St Francis warned St Anthony. Your community knows this as the community nourishes and protects, though that is a Franciscan touch it is true. So what I would like to hear about is the development of doctrine at Vatican II, and how JPII guided what was true and corrected abuse and error. And if Benedict re-emphasized or further clarified, as a theologian how that gift of Magisterial guidance directs Dominicans today. I only had two Dominican teachers, Fr Giles Dimock and Fr Mullady. F4 Giles would probably have a bit to say on the troubling implementation of Vatican II but also the guidance of the Holy Spirit in that time

Father Pine is a wise young man obviously inspired by the Holy Spirit. His heart is traditional and grounded on scripture. Inclusion of sinners without repentance and correction is never right. Evangelization means bringing the world to conform with the Church for its Salvation . Not vice versa . Denial of the truth is not evangelizing

It was always in my Catholic formation to be respectful to the Pope. Unfortunately, people from the so call first world countries, seems reluctant to accept the choice of the Holy Spirit present during the conclave. As they do not agreed with Pope Francis, they do not respect him as the successor of Peter. People that want the fall of Catholicism are, unfortunately, within our own priests, bishops, cardinals and catholic extremists.

Reason and Theology Michael Lofton would disagree about this “Pachamama” scandal crying out to heaven. Your implying it was in fact idolatry

It’s very possible it’s different leadership styles at play here. Francis is being noted as being a bottom up leader who gathers opinions from bishops, priests and laity to ponder with his values. Benedict and JP2 seemed to be top down leaders who had a vision and pushed it down the line for compliance. I am drawn to two biblical references 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 (RSVCE): 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law-though not being myself under the law-that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law-not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ-that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. What the pope does to achieve the ultimate aim to gather people to the church … I don’t know his heart or his vision but Jesus does. As for mistakes … even Aaron made error during his priesthood, yet served he did.

this is well done and his points well taken. Reasons church has the long view and process for sanctification are mentioned by this priest. The Church should have resisted the calls for immediate sainthood. I thought it then and more so now. To a great extent Popes are and have to be at the mercy of their closest advisors. I am under the impression Cdl. O'Connor confronted JPII about McCarrick but unfortunately he got contrary advice from others he decided to follow. Benedict took care of this to some extent but it is also said he told Bishop Fellay his authority stopped at his office door.

🙏🕊💒

The church is about the salvation of souls. God knows what he is about. If he’s allowing this, that rad trads get mad about, they need to realize in the end, God is allowing it because it is the best for human souls. God’s ways are not our ways. Latin and altar rails are not our salvation. The love of and belief in Christ is. Trust in Him.

How much did the Catholic Church grow under PJPII?

JP2 tried to bring the world together and a lot of the criticism of him come from him trying his hardest to do that.

Modern secular humanism developed from Protestantism. So it is part of Christianity, not a negation of it. This seems paradoxical since it is an atheistic ideology, but it actually make sense. All human rights can be derived back to Christian teaching. This is more and more evident even to secular humanists, since they see how other cultures like Muslim world, are easily rejecting their humanist principles which they regard as self-evident, but they are absolutely not. They come from the teaching of Christ and the Church. So someone like Richard Dawkins recently went viral by saying he's a Cultural Christian. So humanists and christians should talk and they'll see they have a lot in common. They are like father and son, not enemies. They need to help each other, or all the Christain and humanist world will collapse by either being destroyed by themselves or by some other hostile cultures.

John Paul II was truly a great man and a saint, but the Church has run into problems, no one (in a leadership position) obeyed the Holy Mother's request at Fatima for certain things to be done around 1961. The train of blessing has crashed and we need to get back on track. We need to pray for forgiveness and for a new opportunity to restore what was lost, otherwise we will continue to eat the fruits of disobedience and desolation.

Not send a hate comment, but there are serious questions on many things, but looking at prayer meeting if Assisi is a major problem. No, I am not Novous ordo or Catholic, I have left and went to the eastern Orthodox church.

Eh. This is probably a great example of why priests should really keep their opinions to themselves. If you’re Polish, Catholic or not, you’ll understand the challenge that JPII faced growing up in Socialist Poland. When the west (looking at you US, inclusive of its Catholic clergy) left Poland for dead, JPII rallied to help the country crush Communism. His methods may have been controversial, he may not have been perfect but when people of this age think of the Catholic Church, they think of JP2 because he put himself out there, warts and all. He was there making the mistakes rather than shut up in the Vatican. Dragging a clergy man through the mud retrospectively is not new. We did the same with Benedict when he was elected, we could help bringing up his Nazi Youth past over and over again, despite it being irrelevant. Same here, perhaps its more fruitful spending time evangelising rather than sinking down into throwing about personal criticism. It’s unbecoming to see clergy doing it to each other, and it’s worse when lay people feed into it.

A good reflection Father. The optimism towards secular-democracy of the post-Council days are gone. Christian Democracy is a failure, Human Dignity is irrelevant simply because the idea of Human itself is being questioned (the trans movement etc). Its time to move on

Or it's simple: man is Christ was his position, as he said, and he was a modernist heretic.

Your success will evaporate and your failures will live on. That's how many see JPII particularly those who don't have the emotional attachment to him that many older generations do when he was a universally beloved celebrity Pope. What's worse to hear the naivete from previous generations be repeated as "just so" wisdom like it wasn't proven false one hundred times is frustrating. Same with V2. It's failures are many of self evident and we have a wealth of evidence to draw upon to say how it's proposals were not what the world needed. That the council fathers read the signs of the times wrong and as we continue to distance ourselves from it the increasing attempts to "reclaim it" seem silly and tone deaf.

Who is the theologian who spoke of Stalin's funeral in warm terms and believed in the priest-worker movement? Chenoux? Chenu?

I know I'm a few months late with this, but I just watched the podcast this morning. Ok, so I'm 77 years old and was more or less out of the Church during the 1970's. So I guess my perspective on JPII is very different from the much younger people to whom you seem to be addressing your remarks. And I realize that in order to make the moderating point you wish to make to your younger audience, you have to give the appearance of being adequately hesitant about JPII's legacy. So you emphasize that he made incorrect judgments about two very evil men, that he may have made some less than stellar episcopal appointments, and that his difficult writings do not seem to have the lasting effect that one might have expected them to have. (How one measures this sort of thing, you do not reveal.) I get where you're coming from and I understand that you begin this way in order to gain some sympathy from the present generation that for some reason doesn't understand how great this saintly pope was. But in using this strategy I am afraid that you are doing a disservice to your admittedly undeserving audience. Can I use a basketball analogy from the same time frame. Pope John Paul II, along with his collaborator and successor Josef Ratzinger, were to the Church of the 1980's and 1990's what Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were to the NBA of the same period. You can't understand the difference between before and after just by looking at the statistics. The change was a palpable change of culture and even, if I may put it this way, of spirit. All of a sudden, young people were being inspired by this incredibly brilliant and holy man. When I returned to the Church in the late 1970's the situation in the Church was -- wait for it -- much, much, much worse than it is today. Seminaries were practically empty, including Dominican Houses of Studies in places like Washington; the faith had been watered down to the point of insipidness by my generation and the one just before us, catechism class had been replaced by banner-making, and anyone who had the slightest inclination toward doctrinal orthodoxy was being treat like Jeremiah himself. There was as yet no Scott Hahn or John Bergsma or Brant Pitre, etc., or, even more significantly, no Catechism of the Catholic Church. Steubenville was barely a twinkle in Fr. Scanlan's eye. I could go on, but you get the picture. God had raised up a great saint (actually, two of them) at just the right time. We're talking St. Paul, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great, St. Dominic, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, St. Charles Borromeo, etc. In short, I think you have a duty to follow up this 'moderate' podcast with an all-out articulation and celebration of what God was able to accomplish in and through Wojtyla and Ratzinger. (Thanks for all you do, by the way. 🙂)

I’m not sure if the Pachamama incident was really as bad as it looked Michael Loftin from Reason and Theology did a really good video breaking it down to show it was not idol worship.

8:54 who are you describing? I don't believe a Polish person who lived through both Nazi and Soviet occupation would have anything nice to say about Stalin.

JPII studied at the Angelicum. Do you know if that influenced his particular type of thomism or did he arrive at that on his own?

All modern Popes, thankfully, are chosen by the Holy Spirit, not the rich monarchies of Europe. Maybe our current petty politics are of no concern to God.

Mary doesn't save our souls, Jesus Christ does. His death on the cross is our justification. The thief on cross is the perfect example. No purgatory, for him. Father Son and Holy Spirit is my guide.

Ok…honest question and I feel silly asking…is the old rite the Latin Mass? Can any one explain this to me?