The Day Dragon Ball Died 

Barely even that. Look at Vegeta after fighting Toppo. He fought a literal God, after almost an hour of basically non-stop life or death battle royale fighting, and he just looks like someone pushed him into the dirt.

Well, Super is really against using blood, which might be a reason. Blood always indicates serious injuries, and I think that without it, hits only leaving some bruises makes them fell like minor scratches like you said.

"the characters used to get broken arms damaged legs or a _hole_ _in_ _the_ _chest_ " Oh you might like the Moro arc.

yh, for the anime. Manga still keeps that brutality.

@@themacewens From what I remember of the the Future Trunks arc of Super Goku, Vegeta and Zamasu all get stabbed at some point with Vegeta even coughing up blood and Zamasu get's his head blown off by Goku with a Kamehameha.

Especially with Vegetas' fighting style.

Starting from top it started to get really good and went crazy with dbs Broly before it was super inconsistent though

Toriyama did write moro's saga though, thats why it was good.

@@happyispoetic yea hopefully we get more arcs with toriyama directing and writing the battles n stuff

@@happyispoetic The fights too?

Indeed, after the end of Dragon ball is like they hate each other and stay together because reasons, they dont love each other anymore, and just stay together because

@@Krysnha I know, it’s awful and they worked so well together at the end of dragonball

@@firenze6478 Yes for me or they end it in dragon ball or end it with z and that is it,

Toriyama just doesn’t do romance.

@@Krysnhafr, like I remember in the cell saga when goku kissed her before leaving to go train gohan and then in super he claims to not even know what a kiss is In Z they felt like a real couple, in super they just feel like the classic boring couple chi chi has her typical anger issues and goku is stupid and leaves her to go train constantly I think the only moment they had together was when she was concerned about him after fighting like a novice against frost even though he is meant to be a master In fact goku leaving his wife for months on end to go train with whis is actually a comedic plot point in super Z goku only did that sort of stuff in dier situations like when the saiyans were attacking or when he needed to recover and learn instant transmission on yardrat or when he decided to stay dead to protect earth Literally for 5 years after the 23rd tenkaichi budokai arc he spent his time being a good husband and father whilst training at home Even after beating buu for the 10 years after he was just chilling around at home he didn’t even bother to go see bulma or vegeta for 5 years And yes he went to go train uub but that was also to protect earth in a sense so uubs power wouldn’t go out of control and he wouldn’t become a bad person and also so goku has a rival to fight Now look at super, casually abandons his family to train with the gay angel

Rest in peace to the legend 🙏

Rest in peace😢

I'm collectinig the dragonballs to bring him back, who's with me?

Now that toriyama is officially gone the heart of this franchise is gone. Idk what’s going to happen in the future. Is it’s gonna be disappointing like dc and marvel

To be honest dragonball was starting to look interesting again, but now that Toriyama is gone, I'm afraid for the future. We may be at the end of an era... I just can't realize it. I should be feeling something, yet nothing... It's like someone's playing a bad joke.

raditz was game changing. Dragon ball was firmly rooted on earth and in journey to the west inspiration, but once raditz showed up, it switch to a sci-fi space anime that opened up a literal whole new world. He raised the stakes by forcing rival and protagonist to team up to beat him, and required gohan's rage and goku's death to truly put him down. he felt menacing and strong, whilst also being cunning and using his wits to make up for his faults (although I'm still annoyed that he never trained his tail to be immune). If it were for him, dragon ball would still be an earth bound story based in mysticism.

@@projekttaku1 Exactly! Plus on top of Goku having to team up with a deadly rival. His death left his son in the very same rival's hands. As far as the tail goes though, I thought that was totally fine. Everything has its weakness. Plus I think it just shows a connection that all Saiyans have. They can't stand their tail being squeezed. I think the nice touch though, was that the Saiyans adapted to it by wrapping them around their waist. As a tactic, to not have it waving around like Goku always did. Which also shows a difference in discipline and way of life. Compared to how Goku was as a kid.

@@Ultimateprototype13 yeah, without raditz we wouldn't get the saiyan saga, frieza saga, super saiyan, super saiyan 2, gohan and piccolo's relationship and so much more. The reason it irks me is that we see that nappa and vegeta have trained their tails to not be a weakness.

@@projekttaku1 True and ahh okay that’s fair, I didn’t remember that. I guess to be fair though, they were considered stronger than Raditz. But it does seem like something he’d be able to do

To me its one of the best fights in DBZ. The fight looked very intense, Piccolo getting his arm blown off. Goku getting his gut blown off, no ridiculous and dragged power ups. It was just an all action chess between 2 soldiers vs a king.

Yep

You just put my own thoughts into words better than I ever could. I think a prime example of this is how DBS treated Buu going into the Tournament of Power. Leading into this, we've had moments where Buu could have been helpful but he was snoozing, it was all played off as a gag... then in the exhibition match, Buu gets his chance to shine. Other universes are in awe of Buu's power and resilience, keep in mind this is essentially seeing the final boss of DBZ and considered the height of power in Universe 7... and then, later, we get to see each of the U7 fighters getting ready for the tournament of power, and we get a HUGE surprise. Buu transforms to fight Goku, and takes on a new, sleeker form! He legit looked like he was going to have a significant change in his attitude and just generally as a character, looked like he was going to really apply himself to fighting and protecting the world. Goku was surprised and impressed by the way Buu's fighting style has changed, and by Buu's adaptability in combat! And then... lmao it was just a prank, Buu fell asleep again, let's forget that ever happened. I'm sure there's other examples, but like... man, they could have actually given Buu character development and progression as a character. Majin Buu, the most important character in Z's final arc! And they just made it a gag... for what? The opportunity to give Frieza what is, at the end of the day, the same arc that Vegeta had? I dunno, I look back on it now and I'm just like... missed opportunity to develop and evolve things. And maybe this is just the Buu fan in me speaking, but instead of Frieza, how cool would it have been to see Buu pull it together at the end of the Tournament of Power? Maybe even learning Ultra Instinct just from watching Goku or something.

In a sense Dragon Ball is kind of Star Wars. The original thing finished a long time agao and should maybe have finished a tad sooner than it did. But because of all the Hype and love people have for the franchise we now NEED more and more of it. Not because some has another story to tell but because people would still buy it. And with taht logic comes this 'commitee approach' of do what the fans want. And so we get the endless warming up of old patterns, memberberries and nostalgia bait made by 100 different people with 100 different ideas, tastes and motives. And the endresult is a bland corporate design soup bought by many but really beloved by almost noone.

Whenever GT or Super show a glimpse of story within its action it feels so good. The Roshi vs. Jiren moment in the DBS manga may be the best Super moment ever. It wasn't a "hype" moment, and it didn't feel like action figures crashing together. It was meaningful, as well as being well-composed. Harkins back to the manga's martial arts origins. It's a brilliant character moment and a great "fight", even if not many hits were thrown.

@@uknownada true, nearly every battle in z felt, to some degree, the emotional resonance we felt while watching Roshi v Jiren

how old were you when you first watched DBZ vs how old were you when you first watched Super?

Nostalgia got this guy over hyped for the past when its just more of the same@@FeIixDragon

@@FeIixDragonif you’re trying to say yes looking at it dragonball through rose tinted lenses then no. You are just flat out wrong. Dragon bal super sucksss

​@@mafinalmessagechangedaworl7131 there's plenty in super that's good, it's not just flat out bad

​@@JJJBunney001like what?

Now I want a story focused around Tien, Yamcha, and Chaiotzu that ends with Tiencha's introduction, as Tien would find the Fusion Dance easy to replicate, just like how he saw the Kamehameha.

Meanwhile, now everything has to be like 1 sextillion times universal to be an actual threat, which is stupidly hard to believably write. Granola gets a pass because he cheated to get the power, but everything else is just bullshit.

I think one thing that helped the high stakes of the Namek & Cell Sages, is that although they had high stakes, it was extremely personal For Namek, Frieza wiped out the saiyans, it makes it personal not just for vegeta, but for Goku to an extent, even though he doesn't have much connection to his race, It was Goku avenging the saiyans Cell as well is a very personal threat, developed by a red ribbon scientist dr gero, out of nothing but pure hatred for goku, to kill goku

​@@pocketplayer33nah infinite× multiverse

@@godslayerreginald 👆🤓

Agreed. The line encapsulates the whole video and feelings we fans have towards the works.

What I think makes it hard for so many fans to understand this is that most fans, if we're being real, has never experienced Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball. Most people know who he is, but have never read or may not even be aware of the manga. Their experience comes from the anime, which is a faithful adaptation, but it isn't Toriyama. Dragon Ball Super is, like the preceding anime shows, a work based on the work of Toriyama. Most fans, simply, don't know Toriyama's work well. So when something so prominent is so far removed from his work, it seems off to those who have never properly experienced it.

@@uknownada ppl who start off with super swear everything before it is not as great , it’s giving the Star Wars effect.

By this logic Dragon Ball after the Pilaf Saga isn't Toriyama's either since it was his editors that truly had control over the series all the way up until the end of Cell. Then he wrote the Buu Saga without any influence and now instead of Toriyama's editors telling him what to write its Toriyama telling other people what stories to write.

@@Far2Sega4U Toriyama still had control of the story. He was just pressured to impress current and former editors. So yes, it was still his story.

fr

@Amenadiel 🅥 sdtfu

@Amenadiel 🅥 shut up

No matter what DBS turns into , the whole franchise isn't dead .

Same here

Those were good Arcs

Blud knows the word visceral but doesn't know how to spell animation lol

​@@thereallegend6990😭😭💀

Exactly

I feel like the Universe Survival Arc did raise the stakes a lot, but at the same time, in Dragon Ball Super, we know that it's ahead in the time-line of the final chapter of Dragon Ball. So you know that the plot won't allow for doom or anything permanent, other than for newly introduced characters, because in the final chapter, everybody is supposed to be okay

I forget the term for the paradox, but the rule of thumb is "when the stakes are so high that failing would be impossible to recover from, victory is guaranteed, otherwise the story would end in an unsatisfying way."

@@CoralCopperHead basically

Ya but holds already run out of resurrections so if he dies now that’s it he can’t come back.

Fucking hell, DBS: Broly still the most GOATed DB film. It did everything perfectly and literally saved my life.

@@astraldirectrix How did it save your life?

@@Trashboat4444 He makes it sound like, he was was literally gonna jump or something bruh.

@@therisinghero3932 lol

@@therisinghero3932 I was on the bridge and then I saw that guy’s hair turn green, I became a deeply religious man after that

And then Beerus says “you couldn’t have beaten Frieza like this” to post-Buu base form Goku. Wait, what? Though to be fair, that’s not exclusive to Super. GT bugged the hell out of me every time characters didn’t even bother going Super Saiyan against an enemy they damn well knew needed it, or dropped back to base form and kept fighting like nothing changed, or a much lower power base form character lands a hit on a character SSJ4 was just struggling to even catch… hell, if Omega Shenron was that powerful, how is base form child Goku just tanking shots from him like he doesn’t even feel it after him and Vegeta just got completely manhandled in SSJ4? Because the spirit bomb needed to be protected, so reasons? The sanctity and logic of battle power went right out the window post-Z

@@DomDomPop ​ @DomDomPop at least GT had the excuse of not having been written by toriyama😮‍💨

@@ilgaglioffo6715 I mean, in one sense that’s true, but in another sense, the Dragon Ball animes have always been a group effort, and especially the battle scenes were often left up to others anyway. The people who worked on GT obviously had access to all kinds of Z and OG DB footage that they used for reference and flashbacks, so really they should have known better.

For me the story is what's missing in the newer Dragon Ball. The Tournament of Power was really disappointing for me. I thought there was something interesting that's gonna happen with Zemo and the angels, or with the other gods of destruction. I was expecting some context or motivation to be revealed for this event but nope, it was really just a Royal Rumble. They're just parading these characters like a toy exhibit. Older Dragon Ball was more than just the fight.

​@TomCruz54321 Agree 100% on the TOP. Great idea but terribly written. Here's a simple idea that would have made the tension more significant....The tournament is announced, but NOBODY is told that the universes are at stake. Goku still just thinks its a fun chance to fight "Strong guys". The Fighters are summoned to the Arena. Zeno erases all universes BEFORE the fight begins. The last fighter standing can still wish them back, BUT that's IF that fighter wants to. Then that makes the desperation to win much more real, and it makes the threat of Frieza wanting the wish for himself more serious.

if someone understand how fucking hard that kind of work is is toriyama, guy aparently got traumatized from drawing for decades after he finished dragon ball

​@@carso1500hew retired it makes sense

I agree, I love the moments where they focus more on the wacky small adventures the characters have in between the major arcs. They just add so much to the lives of these characters and show that there's more to their lives than just fighting intergalactic threats. I especially love the moments with Vegeta and his family as it shows how much Vegeta has developed as a character, not just in his physical strength or power level, but in his growing love for the family he started with Bulma. It even adds to the stakes of the bigger fights as they show what the characters are fighting for.

filler was always quite good in DB

Postboy Piccolo

@@LiamTolentino yea it’s cool but at the same time ain’t cool if we waiting a whole week or two for just a filler episode. Back in the day was different since we already had the anime dubbed and had it for Monday-Friday on television. So it wasn’t a problem watching some fillers. But nowadays , once super comes back , we don’t want to wait a whole week for just a filler

my favourite moment of all time was freiza and bulmer wanting to wish for the same thing. TBH tho I never cared about any of the fights, I just like watching these nutty characters hang out like normal people. If I wanted to watch intese dramatic fighting, I'd watch my parents try to get along for 45 minutes.

The biggest irony is that while now there are world-ending threats and super powerfull beings, there is less bloodshed. Where super powerfull god like entitied appear blodshed and suffering is vound to happen. But nope😒😒😒

His character was assassinated long before then.

@@jarosbodytko6462 nah this was some next level shit.

amen to that.

What about Yo Son Goku and his Friends Return? That came out before BoG.

I would say it died when they went from GT to LGBT, now goku identifies as god..

@alian ha Yea it feels like it adds more characters for the sake of marketing rather than world development.

Also, granola arc so far is mostly bullshit. An half assed dragon can grant strenght beyond god forms. Once upon a time there were actual limits to the dragon's wish granting abilities

the teleporting to planets was poorly done.

@alian ha granolah got his arms broken, and got shot in the eyes and in the chest, how is that not violent ? "We all know in super there will be no cruel deaths" saganbo dies because of an overdose of energy, then his body gets obliterated by a random attack because fuck him, also moro slowly losing his sanity was one of the most cruel ends to a villain in dragon ball.

@@ItchRevenge92 yeah they get strong but the price is their whole lifes, granolah got on the same level of goku and vegeta but he only has 3 years left while goku and vegeta still have some decades to live, gas in the most recent chapter looks like a fragile old man, and yet goku and vegeta still find a way to evolve to compete with them, it shows that hard work surpasses cheating, the same message was showed when goku fought moro with UI, sure but had UI but moro couldn't handle it because it wasn't his, he didn't train for it, and his body and mind payed the price.

You're so very wrong

@@blankfist2921 Not for the Namek Saga

@@blankfist2921 explain how

@@blankfist2921 You just completely forgot about all the hiding and scheming that went on during the namek saga up until the Ginyu Force's arrival

@@blankfist2921 love it when people say you're wrong and walk off like it's an argument, that they won with no less

Agreed, her hair looked so much better before

@@ncrveteranranger4454 the animators got annoyed with animating it.

Filtered. The short haircut looks better, and fits her tomboy personality a lot better.

@@ThelronFjordbut guys like pig tails. New haircut makes her look like a guy

when fighting, you would want to have short hair :3 unrelated to appearance.

I want to blame the whole no consequences thing not on what Super does, but WHEN it takes place: the years between Buu and EoZ. Had Super not taken place during that time, I feel like many people who feel a little bit more generous towards it in terms of critique.

@@evilkratos55 Super being a midquel was/is it's greatest problem. It leaves the writing with very little breathing room.

@@ligtningdog6399 yeah. because we KNOW it's in between Buu and EoZ so no matter what happens, at the end of the day we know everything will be fine because everyone is alive at EoZ.

@@evilkratos55 not only that but super completely screwed the end of dbz by having pan be born so early. She was only 3 years old at the end of dbz and trunks and goten were full on teenagers that looked to be at least 15 years old or more. So it just threw the entire thing out of wack since they have a limited time slot between the end of the buu saga and dbz itself

@@evilkratos55 I've never bought into these kind of arguments. The tension in stories never comes from IF the heroes survive and beat the villains or not, the tension comes from HOW they do it. Besides, this is Dragon Ball. If someone dies, they are probably going to be revived anyway. The reasons Mark explains in the video resonate with my experiences better.

So you just skipped past the black, top, broly movie, Moro, and granolah arcs? Cuz all those sagas required teamwork from a bunch of different elements to win and unlike in Z where they always win, in the black arc dbs had the balls to show that even the characters you think are helping you are even bigger of a threat. I’ll never understand why dbs doesn’t get more respect despite all its done as a successful sequel

@@leultrainstinct406 It's not to say that DBS is bad. It's just that it's not as good as DBZ was. The entirety of the Namek Saga was a near perfect story. In the beginning, we had the setup of Gohan and Krillin leading the charge to find the Dragon Balls, despite being two of the weaker fighters, so they couldn't really arouse suspicion or get in too deep. You also had Goku and Piccolo training while waiting for their respective methods for arrival, so there was suspense. Would they even be able to bring Piccolo back? Would Goku arrive too late? You also had the Piccolo character arc of him coming around to being an out and out good guy moving along nicely, as well as the start of that for Vegeta with him also double crossing Freeza. There's so many more moving parts in the Namek Saga that all gel perfectly, while the bits in Super, while done well at times, are too linear, even if done really well.

@@leultrainstinct406 That's kinda true of the Goku Black arc but it's not at all true of ToP/Broly, and the other two were manga-only which most people haven't read compared to watching the show. Yes ToP had multiple characters contributing in different ways, but the actual fights felt pretty divorced from that (and indeed, from the rest of what was going on). They were for sure trying to ape the usual atmosphere of a tournament arc from dragon ball, but the story contribution of each fight felt pretty minimal and the tension was pretty lacking by comparison. I enjoyed super, but it's not DBZ.

@@Zac_Frost DBZ isn't just the Freeza saga.

@@okagron Thanks, Captain Obvious. I didn't know that.

If you ask me not a fan of dragon ball, it should have end there, dragon ball as aholl

Agreed, I will always die on the hill that DBZ would’ve been a perfect 10/10 had it ended after the Cell saga. The whole Buu saga afterwards just felt like Tori doing a victory lap to introduce more characters and transformations for the sake of $$$. More merchandise from toys and new characters for video games.

Same. For me, after the Cell saga is where i really feel the show changes. It feels like everythign after Cell is more like a oneshot story that they thought up on the fly, rather then something that had been planned and worked towards. I still enjoy the show after that point, but its post Cell where my opinions changes from "This is a brilliant anime you should absolutely watch" to "Its a fun anime I enjoy watching."

for sure Cell saga is peak Dragon Ball and should have concluded the series

Ending it with the Cell Saga would have been a problem because Vegeta's character development didn't come to a conclusion yet. The same way ending it with the freeza saga would have left Gohan's character development hanging.

it feels like the Story's have no Weight anymore

One of Toriyama big flaw is that he can't handle complex characters. He sucks at story telling and only like simple plot with stupid jokes. Whenever he created complex and interesting characters he always end up pushing them to the side because he doesn't know how to use them. You see that with Piccolo, with Future Trunks and with Gohan. He always return to over simplified one dimensional character. Stupid Goku and his rival Vegeta. Despite its many flaws including artistic ones, Masami Kurumada is a much more consistent and better story teller. He keeps his characters consistent despite his story being streched as long as Toriyama. It's not very creative but not ONCE do you get bastardization of his characters. Their personalities are coherent and evolving coherently. Wanna learn how to write, then check Saint Seiya. It's not a perfect story, but you'll see that he does good character development unlike Toriyama.

@@Truhania Toriyama is by no means a good story teller, which he makes up for by being an amazing artist. Dragon Ball is simply a good case for me personally to study because how strongly familiar I am with it. There are obvious reasons why I don't like Dragon Ball super as much as the original series but the how the story telling, simple as it is, didn't pause to make room for the action is a good reason.

@@Truhania yes but no. Toriyama does push aside many good characters bc he either doesn't know what to do with them or doesn't want to overcomplicate things in the long term but saying that he doesn't do good character development is downright untrue

Thats like... basic writting stuff... Lol

@@Truhania the problem is you cant read brainless rat Goku’s depth Goku values his strength because of the events of his life. After losing his parental figure to a “monster”, his helpessness created a will to grow more powerful to defend himself and those around him. He trains to push himself to new heights and defeats the greatest evil in the world, Piccolo, and is then effortlessly defeated by his brother Raditz, When he asks Krillin to spare Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, he does not out of morality, but out of curiosity of how far he can push himself. He calls himself selfish for this, but makes the choice anyways. This is the first step of Goku’s change as a person, Goku is pure of heart by the standards of the Kinto’un and yet he is innately flawed. His pure mindset is a both a blessing and a curse. He sees the best in people, he wants to be the best he can be, and he assumes that those around him should share his values. Goku puts his son into a situation that he didn’t realize Gohan wasn’t prepared for, and even gives Cell a senzu because hes so confident. Depsite his flaws, Goku is extremly self aware. Towards the end of the Cell Games, he sacrifices himself and apologies to Gohan for not making the best choices. He even chooses to say dead because he realizes that his existence has drawn seveal enemies to Earth, and during the Buu saga, he tries to give the mantle of Earth’s defender to Goten and Trunks that he cant fight all of the battles anymore, even if deep down he wants to. Goku literally abstained from fighting, the one thing he has dedicated his life to his son. Kid Goku is a child all alone in the woods away from society and his lack of understanding of modern technology like cars which he describes as “monsters” is a result of his lack of indoctrination, speaking of indoctrination Kid Goku is a pretty great embodiment of curiosity, and freedom his curiosity is a result of his lack of teachings of subjects in modern society (lack of indoetrination), The flying nimbus is an magic yellow that Goku uses to transport those who have a pure heart are able to ride on the flying nimbus , clouds symbolize clear thinking and emotional purity these fit Goku well seeing how he is pure of heart and has strong set belifes on what is wrong or right, the nimbus also correlates to he freedom in the many way Goku is free is a set purpose or place Identity crisis Identity crisis is the questioning in ones own idenity, once Goku sees Raditz and Raditz unfolds the story to him and his friends about the saiyans their heritage and occupation and just on general how bad of people they are, Goku is quick to say that he isn’t a saiyan and that he is Son Goku from earth. This neglectance of identity isn’t surprising seeing how Goku and the sayians are opposites and have drastically different morals, Goku’s self acceptance Goku’s self acceptance coming from the realization that his saiyan heritage is something that can be used to good in the world to bring peace one might say the saiyan were ruthless and violent and ransacked peoples worlds to sell them when he accepts that’s he is indeed a sayian and tells Frieza he’s the super saiyan Son Goku, echoed through his speech “I am the light in the darkness” Goku here can be referring to himself the good out of the bad. The one good saiyan out of the many evil saiyans, Affect on world Goku’s affect on his world is the affect on his friends who eventually became his enemies and the whole physical world, Goku in the cell saga knew that if he kept residing on earth his friends said everyone else would be in danger so it was convenient he could use transporting cell to the king kai’s place and also just leave earth for the sake of peace In moral philosophy, deontological ethics or deontology is the normative ethical theory that morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than based in the consequences of the action, Goku has always kept this philosophy with him since a kid and this connects with his sacrifice great. Goku always had his morals over the consequences we can see this a lot with his interactions with vegetea ginyu and frieza, We saw many instances when Goku has put his morals above the consequences. For example, with his battle with Vegeta he could’ve killed Vegeta and bring peace. But he chose to let him alive because of his moral code and to fight him again. With Frieza he had the chance to kill him and yet he let him live becuase again he let his morals take over him and didn’t see the consequences Battle stance In saiyan saga goku and vegeta stance and position are contrast of each other. While Goku sgands below Vegeta showing that he is the low class warrior also shows his view on strength. Goku was always taught that there was always someone stronger than him while Vegeta was taught he was destined to be the strongest and Vegeta looking down shows that he believes that he is the strongest and his strength is complete. While Goku looking up shows how he believes that his strength us limitless and that there are others stronger than him. Both of their stance show how they were trained, Goku stance presents the turtle hermit school, they move low and find a weakness and strategies, Vegeta represent the elite saiyan training and how the fight full offensive seeing how both hands show are prepared to strike in showing his nature as a saiyan Spirit bomb vs great ape Goku and Vegeta main attacks contrast each other in the saiyan saga. The spirit bomb is said to take energy from your enviorment and goku being a saiyan yet denies his nature and stays with his nurture or his enviorment and it is also said that the spirit bomb is stronger when it absorbs the sun. Vegeta on the other hand uses his saiyan nature as his trump card which is great ape form and it is to be said to be powered up by the moon showing how goku symbolises the sun (being clear and self) while vegeta symbolize the moon (being a shadow and blocks the light) these two attacks symbolise their nature vs nature Both Goku and Vegeta were confusion on who they were. Goku was in conflict with his saiyan nature and we can see him in conflict with his own morals and identity where he spares nappa out of the goodness of his hear (nurture) while he spares Vegeta because he wants to fight him again (nature). We can see more of this in his fight with Frieza and how he toys with him, says he’s going to kill him, and is drowning in anger (nature) he also speares him, gives him ki, lets him leave (nurture). Vegeta is going throught the same thing but is apposite as well. Vegeta is in conflict with his humanity and his saiyan nature. He can’t see to understand who he truly is which leads him to Majin Vegeta and Vegeta putting up a facade while deep down he isn’t him true self. He even goes to greater lengths and abandon his own mortality to gain strength. What’s great is that they were facing the person who had the biggest impact on them in their entire lives. Goku to frieza and vegeta to goku. Another is how it contast their nature vs nurture dynamic where vegeta was in conflict with his nurture while goku was in conflict with his nature Nationalism vs patriroism Vegeta and Goku ideology both contrast each other as well. Vegeta ideology being nationalism and Goku being patriotism shows how they both took pride and identified with their race. This difference is how they toke in reactions when they witness the flows of the saiyan race tries to deny it and live in this false ideology that they are the perfect warrior which would cause him to go majin vegeta (trying to return the status of the saiyan race which vegeta believes are the perfect warrior) What I love about this part of the dynamic is how it showed the difference of Goku and Vegeta in terms of being free. Goku believing that humanity can move forward hows how free goku is while vegeta can get over the past and is blind by it Sacrifice Goku and Vegeta sacrifice parallel each other perfectly. Both Goku and Vegeta desire caused more harm to the people they vared about that caused more good to themselves. We can see this with Vegeta and Buu and how Vegeta’s tubborness caused buu to be revived. For Goku was his actions with the red ribbon army and his desire to fight which caused more harm than good. Both Goku and Vegeta said similar thing when they were about to sacrifice themselves. We can’t beat him by fighting. I’ve been thinking and I can’t come up with any other way to leave the earth” Both of these showed that they were looking past fighting and showing that these sacrifice mean something other than any fighting tenchqiues. They even saw a reflection of themselves when fighting Buu and Cell. What’s ironic about these two sacrifices is that both enemies back which showed how it was never themselves to being with and that it was someone one. They both contraduct themselves, Goku ppannrd in to stay away from earth and leave it to the next generation but then chooses to come back and help Gohan. Vegeta when coming back after sacrifing himself fights the same way and contradicts himself again. Written by Anco.

this is sad i wish more fans understand this

From everything that has been said Toriyama mostly makes creative suggestions and has some creative control, and it’s possible he also has final cut. But let’s say Toriyama did “put his foot down”, the production company could allow him to do what he wants while also making it very difficult for him to do what he wants by lowering the budget, (this literally happened with the walking dead), or they could just make it so when it comes time to choose the final cut, all the versions are totally different from anything Toriyama would want, (which could allow them to throw Toriyama under the bus), but let’s not forget all of this is happening in Japan, where the culture is very different. The main artistic minds behind Godzilla and Mobile Suit Gundam continued to create for their franchises despite both disagreeing with the direction they had gone.

Idk mangaka are worked to the bone, I can't really begrudge him for getting to rest while still making a living off all his hard work. He could've just stopped being involved at all, but he still is, so there's clearly still some care for the series there. Plus, with a series this big, it's questionable whether he really would be able to stop production of new content altogether.

It's drawn out for sure. It keeps going and going.

Intend ur puns don't be shy

Same

Thats more because of the monthly release, the same critism was made towards the moro arc but when the arc ended a lot of people thought that it was more enjoyable that when it was releasing.

ikr. why saying it's good while we obviously know it's bad

People who says that don't know how Dragon Ball used to be and how different feels now, they only know how it is currently and how praised it is as a series and after they watch it, they think: "woah, so that's why it's so known", but true fans understand how this series has fallen

Wow. I think that comment might be one of the most confident, unrepentant expressions of *an actual, blatant No True Scotsman fallacy* I have ever seen.

He acknowledges only after his channel almost died because of toei. He s a spineless youtuber

@@virtueofabsolution7641 is that a compliment or an insult?

How will the manga continue after his death ? 😔

DBZ officially died this year. RIP Akira Toriyama

I enjoyed how they were forced to use every form of strategy they had to defeat enemies and were driven into corners as the stakes were just so high. I'm so sad this element of Dragon Ball is now gone :(

You explained this perfectly 💯💯 Super just doesn’t capture that essence that Dbz had

Did the potential for universe ending chaos not feel urgent enough to you with Zamasu/Black and Tournament of Power? The stakes certainly were different than from the days of Z, but still seemed high to me, thus pushing along a usually powerful drama dynamic.

@@Gumby518 there wasnt a single moment i thought they were in danger during the zamasu arc or any arc tbh. not a single character died and blood was almost nonexisted.

@@rocklee33221 I hear that. It doesn't help the tension when the franchises main mechanic is a reset button. I guess we viewed it differently.

I have the same thoughts, still wonder why Beerus didn't destroy Earth after Goku lost, or at least half, he destroyed like a small piece of rock then just left.

@@sazerae cause he didn’t feel like it

@@sazerae Because of plot reasons lol.

@@whymustyoudisagree9158 and thats what I'm trying to explain here. Beerus destroyed planets but it so happens that when he came to Earth, "he didn't feel like it" removes all consequences from that fight

@@goodnesswhy obviously

Rip

Goku only started to enjoy fights when he fought Krillin in the tournament. He loved the sports aspect of it.

I gotta ask this. When you hear goku now............No offense, but don't he sound like a fucking grandma/girl ? As a swole ass man like that sounding the way he do, ain't it a turn off? Like cant they switch to a younger/fresher voice actor for him in Japanese?

@@searchingforname5254 The tone of the voice is the same as when I was a kid. I don't see much difference. However, Nozawa can't shout at the top of her lungs anymore like 30+ years ago.

You perfectly phrased my thoughts on modern Dragon Ball. I think in particular the big hook for the fights was the heavy sense of danger and impending doom that permeated the arc from beginning to end. The Piccolo arc had impact because he was obsessed with destruction and chaos; the Saiyan saga was impactful because the Saiyans were powerful experienced fighters with little regard for the people of the planets they colonized; Frieza held even less regard for the “weak” or “useless”, he literally wiped out the Saiyans despite their usefulness to him when they became troublesome, etc. etc. Time and time again the enemies were shown to be legitimate dangers to the galaxy as a whole, both because of their insane power and because of their complete lack of remorse or empathy. The series always made a point to show what it would be like if the villain got their way. This gave the fights a sense of urgency, since the audience was well-aware of the consequences if the Z Fighters didn’t win. Super rarely has this: Beerus is convinced to spare the Earth with minimal difficulty and later even becomes a reluctant pseudo-mentor for Goku and Vegeta; Frieza personally didn’t feel like a threat because he was so far below the main cast in terms of power that even if he was still hellbent on conquering the galaxy he just wasn’t threatening anymore, and the other arcs are tournaments with ultimately zero impact on the story. The only sort of exception was the beginning of the Zamasu saga since the story frequently showed the consequences of Zamasu’s rise to power, but since the later parts were all set in a future that couldn’t be affected by Zamasu in any way, they lost most of their tension. Ultimately, I do enjoy some aspects of modern Dragon Ball, and I look forward to seeing new installments in the franchise, but I can’t deny the fights lack a sense of pressure/consequence, regardless of how intense and breathtaking they are.

@@ReijiArisu1211 well I have a pretty good ear, and I can hear the difference between back then and now.

I’m saying

I also felt a bit sad. I've long understood this, but it's still kinda sad to hear it like this...

Yea honestly at the end of the day everything changes into something good or bad and we can’t stop it. Take for example marvel. It isn’t what it used to be

@@dogelord673 yeah Marvel Died after Endgame

@@StevenJones851 basically marvel died when Tony did. Which is very ironic.

@@StevenJones851 LMAO they are in a rebuild phase, i don't get what you lot don't understand about that

Oof

March 1st Toriyama died

It was supposed to end at the cell saga for a reason

This.

Pretty sure it was cosmic when cell said he would wipe out the solar system but ok

It also had a definitive timeskip and lost the momentum of the story. Nothing about the story would have changed much if Goku were still alive during and after the timeskip, and nothing else really builds off of the previous arc in a major way. Sound familiar? That's the structure of modern Dragon Ball.

I agree. The best thing we got out of the Buu saga was Mr Satan’s relationship with Fat Buu. Them meeting still gets laughs from me till this day

Super was just made to make money

@@razkable Thats why I disagreed when someone posted that there will be no new season of dbs lol

Super is more like GT because it’s not canon and other things although Super is more closer to Z. Make a new season and/or series literally continuing from Z with no retconned and keep Super around and say it doesn’t continue from Z like it was said for GT.

@@constantinestambolitis321 what?

@@constantinestambolitis321 Super is canon, wot

The manga yes, not sure if the anime is going to continue

@@senpie6639 it likely will, but I’m not sure how far the manga will go without akira toriyama to be writing its story

Dragon Ball Super manga and story made by Toyotaru, currently on going. Akira Toriyama's story ended in Kid Buu saga.

@@Adolf_N1gger_20 yeah I know

March 1st Toriyama died

I'd find it Interesting if he was restricted from fighting unless Attacked. This leaves things a bit more dire until then.

I wouldn't say that it was intrusive, especially since Goku coming back wasn't executed as an ass pull. I would say how the buu sage kept dragging on when it could've ended in 3 other fights was the bad part.

Yeah, I mean Gohan was going to become the main character in Z after Goku died. Nobody liked that because they preferred Goku. Whether Goku is better or not, maybe the story would have been better with Gohan.

Really DBZ should have ended with cell and a new series should have started with Gohan's superhero arc (could have called it dragon ball: the next generation) similarly to how between db and z the tone shifts from comedy with bursts of action to more dramatic, with focus on action, this new series could be more slice of life with Gohan basically taking up Goku's mantle in his own way as a superhero, perhaps the series could still have Majin Buu but save him until the last arc or something like that.

@@thetubbywhale8571 Toriyama decided himself he didn't like Gohan as a protagonist. It's not the fans' fault he's indecisive. Gohan was actually very popular with Japanese fans at the time.

Disagree w the goku black arc while as a story it ain’t great goku black himself was a great villain and he’s the reason that ppl actually started to care about the super anime that arc didn’t have much good in it but goku black and zamasu were the only good things about it and it’s pretty clear they are cos they’re both so memorable. Granolah u could be right about but I think it depends on how ideas such as ultra ego etc are all used in the story moving forward

@@sanjaynambisan2538 oh sorry I'm not talking about the villians. I like Goku Black and zamasu. I think as characters their great. I'm more talking about how it narratively goes from SSJ rage, To Mafuba, To Vegito, To Sword of hope, to Zeno erasing everything with little to no reason or set up. The while some of them have a few breadcrumbs of set up most of that just happens and your watching like it's cool but the moment you think about most of it, you're left scratching your head about you know? Alot of that stuff though was still enjoyable on the surface but lacked any other enjoyment to find underneath, narrative wise. I still think Super has done a really good job with most of its villians

I think the manga did it just right by removing all the plot holes and making a good story that is different than the anime but to me moro's saga was peak super

The new db just doesn't have that rawness when they're fighting, it's not dirty no blood it all feels too glossy and bright i just don't feel that they are hurting each other 😅

​@@addie275 You should read the moro saga then, toriyama is the one who made the plot for it btw, a bunch of planets are destroyed there with innocent people and alot of innocent people die to the villain including a major character its also pretty bloody too

Agreed.

@@themightylog2169 Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.

It actually died on march 1st 2024 when he died

@@cristian7470 yea but it died for us fans today 😔

It's not dead shut up its something that should leave on not dead

@@user-ee5ee2db3r I don't think anyone can come up with better ideas than him 🙂

@@xtreme-gaming don't get me wrong I'm sad I even cried but this world is full of surprises what u said just now is not true he still have people that he believes him that's why I said that dragon ball is not dead if u were a fan u wouldn't say what u just said

To me, the Day Dragon Ball Died was when Goku said he’d come back for 24 hours. It felt editorial and intrusive, and it felt like there was simply no more passion in Dragon Ball. There was still heart, but it was clear Toriyama was no longer passionate for the story he had to (or felt forced) to tell. I believe the highschool superhero arc with Gohan was the right decision for both tonal and power creep reasons, as we can see in the Buu Saga, struggling to make itself raise the stakes more and more and be serious.

Really DBZ should have ended with cell and a new series should have started with Gohan's superhero arc (could have called it dragon ball: the next generation) similarly to how between db and z the tone shifts from comedy with bursts of action to more dramatic, with focus on action, this new series could be more slice of life with Gohan basically taking up Goku's mantle in his own way as a superhero, perhaps the series could still have Majin Buu but save him until the last arc or something like that.

@@genebowa2621 Agree 100%!

@@genebowa2621 it's kinda funny that you say this. Thinking about it, dragonball solves what i thought didn't work for me in boruto, for instance. That series kinda relied on the old characters to try and anchor the viewer to the next generations. Felt super stiff, somewhat manipulative. All because naruto ended before the next generation was born, and boruto as a series was stuck between having to be its own thing, and at the same time having to carry a transition period. It felt like the series didn't know what it was supposed to be, and it never did quite manage to let go of the previous generation But dragonball completely solves this by having the entire Z series being a transition point. We have plenty of time to get to know and get attached to gohan before having to give up on goku and the rest of the crew. There's never a jarring rupture, gohan gets to be given protagonism gradually over the sagas, culminating with him defeating cell alongside goku, and it all feels like a very natural progression to him being eventually left to have his own story its a shame, a dragon ball: next gen would have been really cool. As a character gohan only gets flack for being underwhelming because up to the cell saga he was really cool, and then got left out afterwards

No one cares about nerd gohan, and especially videl.

You have no grounds to say that Toyotaro is worse than Toriyama. What you have to consider is that Toriyama has ultimate control of the story boards. Toyotaro mainly just puts plot points together. The truth that people don't want to except is that DBS's writing isn't as good because of *Toriyama* . He's surrounded by a bunch of "yes men". He doesn't have a stern editor rejecting his ideas and pushing him to do better things, like in the original run. So he puts out weak content and there isn't much Toyotaro can do with his creative freedom to "save" the arcs. But as a coping mechanism, you people keep blaming Toyotaro.

@@TonyMishima92 Toyotarou is writing the story right now.

@@Xeno574 He's not. He has *never* been the main author. He has made this clear in several interviews. Toriyama creates the plot outlines with Toyotaro contributing some ideas. Toyo connects the plot points in the manga, then Tori supervises every manga chapter, constantly giving approvals and rejections. Toyotaro has gone on record saying that Toriyama depresses him with rejections he gets.

@@TonyMishima92 You're assuming wayyy too much about this guy based on a simple opinion. Like, who is "you people" anyway? Seems like you're lumping him in with a much worse group for no reason. Though I do somewhat agree with your point.

@@N.N01 On his comment, he clearly blamed DBS's weaker narrative on Toyotaro, even though the evidence clearly suggests that it's not his fault. So I think what I did was mostly fair. I didn't have to be as confrontational, but I'm SO fed up with people acting everything is Toyotaro's fault when he's not even the main author. Even the biggest DB youtubers consistently get this wrong. No one but me is speaking the truth here.

It's not it's still here with us

Instant Transmission was originally meant to teleport in sight range , but now it's throughout the entire universe .

​@@burgezdoestuff8578nope it was very much established that goku used instant transmission to get to earth from his spaceship

I deal with the opposite. A lot of people who haven't even seen Kai or the Movies don't even want to entertain the fact that DB was once a great anime. They just chalk it up to lazy writing and macho screaming, which is the opposite of what the show was (tho the filler was annoying af). I try to tell haters how good the Freiza arc or Broly Movie were and they basically don't believe me. The kicker is that it's kinda true that DB has a lot of problems later on that tarnish it's reputation. It's honestly a really frustrating show to both defend and criticize.

@@digitalcamaro9708 Frieza Saga yes, Broly movie? Nah couldn't defend that as it was a generic "oh bad guy but not really" spin on a popular character that we have already seen and done much better within Dragonball

It's really dumb that people are so protective of successful series that they can't do anything but say "hater" if you dislike it. If I understand a series well enough to discuss it, any reasonable fan should be able to counter my criticisms with facts I either missed or forgotten or recognize that by the fact that I actually am trying to discuss the events of the series that I clearly like it enough to try and absorb what's happening. My not liking the current direction of Dragon Ball does nothing to harm Dragon Ball's success; it just means I'm falling out of love with the series.

@@UnifiedEntity I think he’s talking about the super one

@@kylerbrown3202 I know. I was still talking about the Dbs Broly movie. I prefer the DBZ one because it's not trying to do that. It's an evil super Saiyan being legit evil and I respect what they stuck to despite his upbringing. A tragic character though? If they took more notes from Wrath of the Dragons Tapion then maybe

I agree. The buu saga was hyping up the next generation to pick up where Goku left off. But in the end, they all fail and Goku has to pull a "if you want something done right, do it yourself". I think it would've been great for Gohan and Gotenks to defeat buu together. Have Gotenks ALMOST get the job done but just fall short because they're still kids and need to grow a lot (kinda what happened). Then Gohan picks up the pieces as a young talent but still a veteran fighter too.

Goku's the main character what did you expect

Yeah, and the thing is, the series did a lot to elevate Gohan from the Cell arc all the way through most of the Buu arc. Goku could have come back and been a supporting character, but as you said, it retreated into repetition. The same series that switched tones from gag comedy to action comedy to action drama(+sci-fi) looked at the opportunity to switch gears again and said "nah I'm good".

I agree with you. Goku should have died in Namek explosion as the only Super Saiyan and leave Gohan to be the MC. How can a simple Android be stronger than Frieza the ruler of the universe?

@@LonerWarrior that's true. Gero only had data on Goku up to his fight with Vegeta. Then based on that, he creates androids as strong as a super saiyan. As far as he was aware, that's overkill.

yeah for me GT is the best ending we are going to get i did like the fan DB AF manga but i like that as a short story run with it too long you end up like super maybe one day dragon ball will get the ending it deserves

Yeah basically, plus Cell would have made the most sense for power-scaling reasons. He's literally part Saiyan

Pilaf was already supposed to be the Saturday morning cartoon style villain for the series but I guess they just keep forgetting about him until someone needs a plot device to bring forth a greater evil or mildly inconvenience the heroes in some way

Absolutely, just watch DBS Broly: he finds this super-strong sayian and brings him to earth hoping he will defeat Goku & co? This sound like a Tom & Jerry plotline 🤦

And don't forget that Goku has no problem with releazing a maniacal dictator back into the galaxy so he can mass-genocide to his heart's content again. What a hero...

black frieza now

March 1st

March 1st Toriyama died

@@cristian7470 it got announced like 3-4h ago though

@@daxiatothemaxia4225but it truly died the day he died we just wasn’t awared so it wouldn’t make sense

yeah i really love Old Dragon Ball the Cell Saga feelt like the ending just feelt right and the writing was good buu saga had Vegeta developed but it could of been better

It's absolutely ridiculous that Goku didn't teleport back to Gohan. If he can sense King Kai who had a much weaker power level than any of the Z fighters, Goku should've teleported Cell to King Kai and instantly went back to Gohan.

You know, I always thought the Frieza saga was the perfect ending and Cell was kinda unnecessary, even if the story was great. but seeing your arguments actually changed my mind. The Cell saga really was the story where everything came together up to that point. I’m honestly mad at myself for never seeing it that way 😅 (Although to me Frieza is still the best villain, coming across as being actual evil where Cell just seemed arrogant)

@@jarosbodytko6462 Frieza was a better Written Villan Cell was just kinda Arrogant but his Arc is where Z should of ended

@@_vakas Goku should of definitely have done that

Wow. This is an incredibly powerful and valid point. Maybe the issue isn't that this is Toriyama's dragon ball but that now it IS.

@@Dedition It’s also silly to say “toriyama’s dragon ball” as if it was some carefully planned and clear vision that toriyama had. He was always a gag mangaka forced to add more and more action focus due to editorial and audience demand. It’s not like he wanted to focus on the fighting before, he never did, which is clear by the fact that he now writes everything BUT the action.

Ah yes, what I like to call "George Lucas Syndrome."

@@Dedition exactly. He was kept in check. Anything goes now. Imagine if 19 and 20 were the villains. Yikes.

@@TheWickedMessenger3 it's not that he didn't focus on the fighting before, it's that his natural writing style is fundamentally damaging when he's not the one drawing the scene. Toriyama is really good at improvising fight scenes, he just makes a fight up while he draws it, so when asked to tell what to do and there's going to be a fight, he just says "and here they fight, X wins" since that's how he's used to work.

Probably because Kidd buu actually felt like a genuine threat. He frame 1 blew up the earth and then came to heaven basically to fight them. There haven't been stakes like that since then. The biggest arc in the TOP didn't have any cause you already knew U7 wasn't gonna be erased so that just killed the whole thing

It did kinda feel like the whole arc was one big fight and the tensions were all time high near the end

I don't know you, but I love you lol

@@minedantaken1684 me too

Yes

what does the title of the series called? it's "Dragon ball"... and what does the dragon ball do? to " grant wishes "... and what does those wishes are? to "resurrect" and that's all.. i hope you get it lol

@@IsidroEstranghero poop

Shenron’s powers depends on the the powers of the Kami and he is the one who decides what can be wished for. But if I remember correctly king Yemma is the the one that decides what happens with each soul and Vegeta could not be revived with the dragon balls if could be wrong it’s been some time.

@@IsidroEstranghero wow way to miss the point completely. The original dragon could only bring back a person from death once, and the body had to be in good condition. So battles actually had consequences. When we get to Namek everyone can be revived forever and FOR ME PERSONALLY, that took away the drama because it didn't matter anymore if someone died or not.

Even before Z, death was becoming meaningless is DB since they start using the DBs to bring people back around the RRA saga.

Yet oldhead z fans say it’s trash because there was no “blood and violence”💀

Broly… or rather I think the Zamasu arc right? Didn’t it bring ALL the fans back?

Super is the equivalent to BioBroly. Brought back without any of the merits

@@NinthShinigami every movie launch, the launch of Super, and every new transformation has been a revival for Dragon Ball - it brought mainstream eyes every time it happened

@@sethrod13 thats funny lol, but the real benefit was keeping the ball rolling - “alive” so to speak, within the mainstream zeitgeist

@@sethrod13 Noo, Bio Broly is gt lvl of bad, not super. I ain't a DB wanker fanboy, but for real Bio Broly is the worst movie, and the worst thing that ever happened to DB.

i mean it can if toryama went back to the old ways of writing and being more involved but doesnt due to some reason and im ok with that ill just accept the series for what it is and can always watch the series how it was when im done with how it is now

Corporation is just more important to companies then good story telling

That's probably cuz Toriyama was actually involved with the Battle of Gods movie, and less so with the anime or manga versions of it. It's also why Battle of Gods just excels compared to DB Super as a whole, either the anime or manga.

@@uknownada actually, toriyama had very little involvement with the battle of gods movie

@@winonajavier3944 Any sources for this? Im curious

Thank God Somebody said it

The granohla arc will be a better read when you can just read through the whole story. But the Moro arc is the best arc super has to offer. I hope the anime can come back one day.

​@@jlopez240gaming7 best from?Cell Saga?Freeza Saga?Saiyan Saga? best from other arc in Super?Goku Black arc was interesting

I don’t know. I feel like if you watched the Cell Saga know you’d notice how lackluster and random it was

@@pn2294 there aren’t any fences here, so stop trying to keep the gates. I enjoyed the Cell saga when I was in high school, you apparently don’t. I don’t care if you don’t since that’s your preference, but turning your nose up doesn’t make you cool.

@@pn2294 Fair

That Early?!… Nah