What's funny to me is that the golden order is about regression and causality, and things "being one", like with Radagon being Marika and stuff, and one of the things they dislike the most is the Frenzied Flame of chaos and their three finger. However, when you talk to frenzy flame people, they explain to you that long ago everything was one and that the Greater Will made a mistake that separated everything and created all evil (like in the myth of Pandora) and that what the Frenzied Flame goal is to burn everything and that everything become one and whole again. So the goal of the three finger is that everything become one, just like the golden order likes things to be, the golden order and the frenzied flame are oppose and one and the same at the same time, thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Excellent comment and something I've thought for a long time. Like Quelaag says in the video, so many of the concepts and ideologies of the main factions and themes in the game overlap, twist, cross over each other. It's really brilliant what Miyazaki and company have pulled off in terms of thr story. What is "Order" if not another form of "Oneness"? Edit: It could also be a subtle metacommentary from Miyazaki on how many people/religious institutions condemn others for the very things that live within/define themselves.
The difference is the golden order wants unity through an order of people the flame wants to destroy all live so there's nothing like an order, unity for them means there's nothing with consciousness because like in philosophical existencialism the self consciousness human is drawing himself in the world so he is always the 'other' from the nature. The golden order wants a society that is build up after something like an order of the nature itself (=god) and the human is part of it in - like classical religion. We have in both ways a monism (world came from 1 princip) but the flame ideology is a nihilism against live itself (they are more like radical islamists sentence "u love the live we love the dead").
Good point. But they didn't state the Greater *will* made a mistakte *that* separated everything. It was the great one, which may be, and I believe it to be - a seperate entity from the greater will. I know the exact wording is a bit open, but my interperation is that the mistake was not the seperation itself, just that in seperating himself he made a mistake, as in a miscalculation or not caring/thinking about potential outcomes, which led to all the suffering of it's creations. The golden order also made a miscalculation which led to the stagnation, and eventually deathblight curse. It seems to be a re-ocuring pattern that life and exitence seems to be too chaotic or wild to contain within a closed system, or a designed system all. Entropy will eventually occur.
should not be forgotten that the Three Fingers (thru Hyetta) proclaims "what was borrowed must be returned," and the Elden Stars incantation describes the Greater Will as a force once alien to the Lands Between and the original crucible of life which became the Erdtree
What's interesting about George is that he's more of a sci-fi guy, in a way that bleeds into his fantasy a lot, to the point where some more creative asoiaf theorists put forth some crazy ideas about how the long night was a nuclear winter or something. One of the most impressive things about Elden Ring is that it's absolutely impossible to tell where George ends and Miyazaki begins, it's a perfectly seamless collab, and it doesn't help that this game ALSO feels like a sci-fi story that has a thin veneer of fantasy layered on top of it. It's the most Miyazaki thing I've ever played and it clearly has his fingerprints in the deepest foundations of the lore, but I could say the same thing about grrm. I have no idea how they mind melded so perfectly to the point where I can't even tell who wrote what.
I was never a big fan of George, personally, but we share the same favorite author in Jack Vance. Vance was also one of those, "What, is this fantasy or sci-fi?" people, and I've heard Martin really ran with that. I heard similar stuff to you, for instance like the White Walkers were going to end up being the previous race of people who lived on the planet, or perhaps even high tech aliens that were waking up out of a long sleep.
@@maelstrrom2824 That is like the Dark Souls of books for me. My roommate has tried to get me to read it so many times and I know I will some day, but that day is never today.
I saw a very interesting theory as to what Goldmask is doing in that opening shot of him, he's doing math and drawing geometric symbols. Corhyn talks about how his wisdom is communicated in the movements of his fingers, and laments once you reach Leyndell about how "while still a precise calculus, the rhythm grew increasing wild", as though Goldmask communicates via mathmatics and equations, which would explain his actions(or lack of) in the rest of the story. The reason he got so confused when he came across Radagons name is because he was "solving the formula" of the Golden Order under the assumption that X equals X, and Y equals Y, and solving based on two variables. It led to him a final answer that X=Y, which is just impossible because they are clearly two different variables. But after telling him that Radagon is Marikah, he suddenly realizes he was working with a mistaken assumption that there were two variables in the first place, caused by the attempt to suppress Radagon/Marikah's secret making everyone think of them as separate people. X and Y aren't two different varaibles with two different values, they are the same value and variable. Now that he knows that X=Y, suddenly his final result doesn't create an impossible answer and it all works perfectly,. He goes on to further his contemplation, and eventually forms of the Mending Rune of Perfect Order from his objective mathematical calculation of how to ensure that both sides of the equation are equal. What he was doing in that first image was similar to what you mentioned with painting, he likely just kept working for so long he dropped dead. But rather than painting, he was attempting to use geometry and mathematics to "solve" the Golden Order and find a rune diagram that could encompass everything and fulfill his duty as a Fundamentalist. But of course, he was so focused on his work that he forgot to eat/sleep/whatever, and died unable to complete it, but after becoming Tarnished, came to the Erdtree to complete his formula.
@@crowlovercicadaI think the actual blessing of grace in a lore accurate sense functions similarly to the undead curse in dark souls. It prevents you from dying. Only, because the inhabitants of the lands between view the erdtree and grace as a divine concept, they see the grace as a blessing that has given the Tarnished life, rather than a curse forcing them to live on. So essentially, the tarnished were champions who had their grace taken from them, then when they were needed again, grace was returned to them. Thus they got the name “tarnished”.
@@crowlovercicadaI am pretty sure. The opening cinematic shows all of the tarnished as dead. It’s more obvious with some of them than others. For example, Gideon is buried in a sarcophagus filled with ears and The Dung Eater is hanged, while the art for Fis shows her reawakening as tarnished, lying next to the dead king or whatever she was buried with.
Oh my god…I’ll be honest this is embarrassing but I really thought Elden rings story was this unseen familial inheritance struggle and the spiritual journey of its figure head. I thought figuring THAT out, the relationships, the history, the intentions, was the “deep” part of the lore. But this video showed me it’s not even fictional archetypes but actual history and natural philosophy. God damn what an amazing video and what an intro to the channel.
Glad you made it. But yup when people say these games have "deep" lore. This is what they're talking about. Helps immensely when you have someone as learned as Quelaag to make sense of it all. :)
wow she did a second upload of the video to mirror the way everything in the game is reused or paired with a mirror counterpart in a duo of some sort truly a next level loretuber 👏
Yeah the amount of effort she put in was amazing. I wonder what her educational background is? Seems like “the history of religions”. I’ve only found a few people are at her level of knowledge on religion, the similarities between them and what their gods and Devine symbols say about who they are as a people. It’s so fascinating to me, and to know where she more or less aligns herself in the grand intricate framework of it all. Simply Beautiful.
18:30 Interesting to note that the Erd Tree loses its leaves (and generally takes on a more chaotic, more withered appearance) from the first Golden Order icon iteration to the second. I have to imagine that the change was in response to the Erd Tree’s gradual death. Kinda fun and trippy to see how the Golden Order visualized their own change in beliefs. It’s definitely telling that, after the Erd Tree starts dying, the imagery shifts from arboreal to abstract and geometrical, to reflect a growing disinterest in nature/an emphasis on philosophical and theological thought. Even the symbols in Elden Ring are their own rabbit holes…
You are the only loretuber I've heard who's connected the Roman, Christian, archaeological, anthropological and cosmic motifs/vibes/mythos of this game in a clear way. Diving into your stuff!
@moxiewatts same lol. Tarnished Archaeologist has a lot of interesting theories surrounding Western religious influence in Souls games. He is also the one that tied Miyazaki to these concepts for me. Apparently Miyazaki's Alma-Mater (can't recall the name atm) specializes in Western Studies. Gives a lot of weight to those particular theories. I particularly enjoyed his video on the Christian schism surrounding making the Sign of the Cross using 3 fingers vs 2 fingers and how this relates to the Fingers in Elden Ring.
On Shabriri's slander: I think it's notable that when we meet him, he doesn't seem to lie to us AT ALL. He is somewhat economical with the truth in the sense that he doesn't give us an essay about what the Frenzied Flame is, but he's not making shit up so much as he's presenting his side of the argument, and at no point does he really try to hide his or his patrons chaotic natures. Christ, dude winds up bellowing "May Chaos take the world!" to the heavens as though he he's so fervent in his belief that he can't help himself. That honestly gives him a leg up on most of the other factions when it comes to being open and honest with the player. Furthermore, the merchants that he supposedly lied about actually DO seem to have an innate connection with the Frenzied Flame. This is suggested by the merchants who weren't trapped with the Caravan casting Flame of Frenzy if you aggro them, despite not being part of whatever ritual summoned the Three Fingers.
@@crowstakingoff I don't see how they could have been, the area where the Grand Caravan were buried and the ritual happened is sealed off by Morgott, guarded by an apparition of Mohg, and blocked off with a horking great stone altar. Plus, it would help explain why so many Merchants are tucked away in hard to access places: they hid to avoid being rounded up with their kin and never came out of hiding.
@@Ugrasrava If they are being punished for the ritual, and they were sealed underground as punishment, it's likely that the ritual occurred somewhere else. Just a thought.
@@crowstakingoff I’m pretty sure an item description explicitly states that they summoned the Frenzied Flame after being buried with a chant elicited by their feelings of hopelessness, despair, and anger. I’d also like to point out that this together with the animations associated with the Frenzied Flame and the descriptions of Frenzied Flame spells paints the Frenzied Flame as an avatar or patron of raw emotion.
I don’t know how familiar you are with what are known as wuxia or cultivation novels but for me the Elden ring reminds me of the great dao or heavenly dao mentioned in those styles of novels where the great dao is made up of 3000 dao and each dao is like a law or rune from Elden ring. If you took away the dao of death then no one will die. The Elden ring always reminded me of that so I never felt too confused.
Personally, I see Marika's actions as similar to that of the Norse gods trying to prevent Ragnarok. The Fire Giant Bound to the top of the Mountain reminds me of Surtr. The God-Devouring Serpent was thrown into a volcano like Jormungandr being thrown into the sea. The Rune of Death was removed possibly to prevent the death of Godwyn or any demigod like how they made Baldur nearly invulnerable to prevent his death. The war with dragons I guess in relation to Niddhogr chewing on the roots of Yggdrasil. Tarnished being banished to raise war in other lands possibly becoming stronger like the fallen warriors of Valhall. And the Golden Orders' hatred for those who live in death possibly in reference to the undead army led by Loki. And I don't know if it's because of how much the character Griffith in Berserk creeps me out but I swear Miquella is Loki in this scenario because he is too similar to Griffith so I truly believe him to secretly be evil incarnate. it seems like there's another force at work sabotaging all of Marika's actions though that might be the blowback of her actions. My head cannon though is that Miquella wishes to ascend the cosmic throne and essentially become the Greater Will but present in the physical world kinda like the Yellow King.
Tarnished Archaeologist saw parallels between Jesus Christ and Miquella, with the envoys heralding his coming as a fully grown demigod, and his care of the downtrodden. The Griffith comparison may be apt as Miquella is portrayed as a messianic figure with full devotion from his followers and Malenia. With this in mind, perhaps the Haligtree, Sol ritual, and cocooned followers were meant for his ascension alone, and no salvation for anyone. Or maybe FromSoftware is playing it straight and Miquella is a true messiah who's ambitions were also cut short.
I'm working towards the Goldmask Ending in NG+ at the moment, after I did Ranni's Ending in my first run. It's interesting what similarities the two share, and I feel like I could be convinced towards a faith build thanks to Goldmask!
From all the lore I've injested I've come to interpret the Elden Ring as an artifact that is the direct manifestation of the code of reality. And one can manipulate reality with the artifact. So the one who holds the artifact litterally becomes like a god.
I've long assumed both the Erdtree and the Flame are reality generators, with the Elden Ring and the Souls being akin to software for these generators. You remove a bit of software (soul or rune) and that aspect is no longer part of reality as it is, it's your domain
If we think about the crucible or kiln of the first flame, its a metaphor for creation! We put our clay/glaze into the kiln to get fired and when we pull it out its a finished product! Fire is a bit creative but also destructive! So it seems like Inject code into the empyrean (where gods will and mans will converge) > fire the crucible > reality changes
@@quelaag Hyped for your video about Der Ring des Nibelungen! A ring that can shape reality yet seems bound to certain laws of "fate", implying a metaphysical 'will' beyond. Shit dawg, that's like 70% of medieval theology right there.
Huh. Mentioning the Gloam-Eyed Queen as a patron deity of death makes me think a little about what "shattering" means. I have no proof for any of this, but what if the shattering or removing of runes from the Elden Ring also injures or shatters its "vessel" god. The Shattering proper involved each of her offspring receiving a rune, and her physical body getting pretty well wrecked (and also pierced with one of those god swords??). And it seems like the Gloam-Eyed Queen is Marika's child, but not in the sense of actual birth. We also see gods' Elden Lords with similar injuries - Hoarah Loux also dies by being stabbed and hanged from a tree. What I'm getting at is that Placidusax appears to have five heads, but three of them have been removed (I'm aware this is an ongoing argument, this is really really speculative). The name Placidusax seems to allude to some kind of pacification, and his god is fled. Item descriptions mention both the five fingers representing the intellect of the beast men, and the beasts' wildness slipping away. And the clawmark seal has 3 clawmarks representing beastial wrath. There's a historical parallel between Elden John's tablet and the Tablet of Destinies in ancient Mesopotamian myth, which was taken from the dragon Tiamat, and conferred the right to rule. Tl;dr: Did someone tear the first Elden Ring in half, trying to separate intellect from animal nature, and accidentally create the three fingers?
@@quelaag Looking forward to it! That's probably the part of the lore where I'm most fuzzy on what I think actually happened. But a conflict similar to those Mesopotamian creation myths where there's a push-pull between primordial chaos and distinct, individual gods/humans, could explain both how the age of dragons ended and help clarify the Three Fingers (which is the other part that confuses me). In myth, Tiamet is both the creator of all distinct things, and a force of pure chaos who wants to essentially accomplish the Flame of Frenzy goal. A figure like her could help tie the weird Two Finger/Three Finger mythos together. And a usurper like Enlil could account for their splitting into two distinct forces. Again, really looking forward to hearing your take. Thanks for making these.
finally , someone that also questions the validity of the narrator himself, sheeeeesh i've been going mad thinking/seeing everybody just take his word for it. some stuff are questionable indeed almost like someone embellishing/emboldening certain aspects of the story whilst neglecting to mention others. is very strange but also very "human"
I wanted to paste a comment here that I made a while back on someone else's video, about ranni (my wife) and her connection to hinduism, which you might find interesting, given the connection between stars and her narrative, as well as your interest in things like the mudras in which she rests her hands. I'll preface this by saying that discussing hinduism and aspects of indian societies should be a very slow undertaking and people should be incredibly wary of any tendencies or urges toward drawing connections or synthesizing meaning based on what they read in books or on the internet. My reason for saying this is that as someone of a mideastern ethnicity, who grew up in Punjab - a very isolated part of India built by the descendants of people who left Arab nations for myriad sociopolitical reasons - I can say with complete confidence that India really should not be considered a singular nation by anyone seeking to make sense of the histories and the mythologies of the people that now live within its borders. There are far too many different races with far too many different cultural and historical heritages, far too many different languages, for the entire nation to be considered anything but the result of strictly political decisions made during the British Raj. In other words, if you come across a Hindu tradition that intrigues you for any reason, you should restrain yourself from immediately connecting it to other Hindu traditions that you find similar, because they may actually be completely disconnected religious markers of two groups that have never comingled in any way throughout history, but have had their traditions and practices put under the same broad anthropological umbrella by scholars seeking to organize things that are foreign to them in a way that's convenient to comprehend, kinda like what happened with interpretatio graeca ig. Okay disclaimer over. So wrt Ranni (and also trina/miquella) the obvious aesthetic connections to hinduism can be found in ranni's doll form, which looks very similar to many multi-armed, blue-skinned Gods such as Vishnu (as well as some of his avatars such as Krishna), Shiva, and some depictions of Kaali, the enraged, demon-slaying form of Shiva's wife Parvati. But if you dig deeper beyond this aesthetic connection, you'll find that Hindu mythology is incredibly closely intertwined with astrology. Where I grew up, most (like 99% of) Hindu parents, upon the birth of their children, would consult Hindu priests to create a small astrological booklet full of measurements of the positions of the stars, the sun, the moon, and especially the different planets (all of which are personified as deities with names, unique personalities, and varying temperaments and tastes) at the exact time of the child's birth, down to the exact minute. This astrological book, which is full of graphs and charts that are used to make all sorts of calculations (think Chinese multiplication or napiers bones), is called a Teva (pronounced Tay Vah, like tay from taylor swift and vah from valar morghulis). The Teva and the astrological calculations written in it are then studied by the priests in order to foretell the fate of the child, his or her nature, skills, what planets favor him or her, things that could him or her, and things of which the parents need to be wary etc. Think zodiac symbols on steroids. And this analysis is then used to offer the parents prescriptions for rituals, talismans, jewels, etc that would help improve the child's station in life. So if your child needs to be wary of Shani (Saturn, whom you REALLY don't want to piss off) bc that planet was in a "bad position" at the time of his birth, then you'd need to give bread and grains to certain animals of a certain color, and pour out some sesame oil in front of a neem tree on Saturday (which is called Shanivar, since it's Shani's day) to calm him down. If your kid is predicated to develop other weaknesses, you'd be recommended other mini rituals to appease other angry gods and planets, or to ask for the blessings of generous Gods and planets that could help you out. You may have to avoid eating certain types of foods that could tick off the wrong God, or you may be advised to buy certain fruits to give away to the poor to please a nicer one. Anytime someone's life were taking a turn for the worse, or anytime a person were about to take a really positive step in life, such as starting a business or getting married or trying to decide on a name for their child, this Teva would be taken to Hindu priests for a consultation, and they would review it again and offer their recommendations, just like a doctor that looks through a patient's medical tests and medical history before prescribing treatments. Given the significance that Elden Ring places on stars, their heavenly positions, the connection they have to fate, things like the starlight shards and the amber starlight, I feel like the potential for gleaning insights into Ranni's plotline through the lens of Hindu mythology, and specifically Hindu astrology, is significant imo. Hope you find this interesting! On a tangential note, Trina/Miquella's depictions on items such as St. Trina's Torch and the boats used by the Tibia Mariners depict Trina/Miquella as having two closed normal eyes and third open vertical eye in the forehead, similar to Shivas third eye, the opening of which heralds a period of great destruction (which isn't necessarily a bad thing! sometimes you just gotta clean shop and wipe the slate clean). Other Eastern traditions such as Buddhism also place a great deal of importance on the third eye as a marker of great insight beyond normal planes of existence. Knowing what little we do about Miquella's drive to understand the inner workings of the Golden Order and Outer Gods at large, his desire to bring about a new age, the presence of the envoy heralds around the haligtree, etc etc, I believe his third eye will factor into some significant insights into his character, although his biggest source of influence seems to be Griffith from Berserk, so the influence of Hindu traditions might not be as strong on him as it is on Ranni. Edit: as I was reviewing this comment, I realized something else about Ranni, specifically about her connection to frost and cold, that you might find interesting. Her name being a Hindi word, her blue tone (or her doll's I suppose), her multiple arms, and her connection to torrent (who's been called a goat crossed with a horse by many people but I always thought he looked like a cow or a bull crossed with a horse) can be used to draw obvious connections to shiva, but something interesting about the frost/cold aspect of her character is that Shiva, in Hindu mythology, lives in the Himalayas, in a super cold climate, totally isolated from the world but incredibly generous in his blessings to anyone that prays to him (even bad guys didn't have a hard time getting his blessing, because he was just way too generous compared to vishnu, and especially compared to Brahma, the other two Gods on the same tier as Shiva). When Parvati married him, he had a full family with her, but they didn't leave the Himalayas (specifically Kailash Parvat, or Kailash Mountain, where they lived). Instead, they lived there with him and helped him take care of the world whenever they were called upon. I just thought there was something poetic about Ranni having this similar connection to the cold and isolated cosmos, which she tries to use for the well-being of the people in her world with her fair consort eternal (me).
@@quelaag yeah hearing you bring that up in the malenia video was actually when I figured I should drop some of this info in the comments at some point
the bit about the giant's flame formation and frenzied flame erratic form and their possible connections made me wonder if they could be potentially relevant to a sort of cyclical hindu-yuga reading, like how the giant's flame was a natural balance that followed a primordial erratic flame, and the chaos flame acts more like a Shiva-like full reset that leads back to a state with the primordial flame (which, considering how you have to burn down the tree and everything to bring a new age kind of reminds me of those pine trees that need to be burned to grow well) this maybe made more sense in the first recording haha About connections between Charlemagne and the golden order there is an interesting parallel I found also in the way Charlemagne during his life repudiated his first wife, who was the heir to the longobards (who he was in war with until the marriage that ended it), to then marry to his second christian royal wife (there is a famous italian novel about it), which kind of reminded me of Radagon and Rennala anyway nice videoo
I cant believe ive only just found this channel. I thoughtvi found all the fromsoft games channels. This one is perfect for what im looking for. Deep lore . Thanks qualaag
i'm waaaay late to the party but I think it's so cool that you and the other Elden Ring Lore videographers reference each others work all the time. Y'all are doing peer review on a tiny scale with an amazing video game and it's beautiful!!!
So Elden Ring is like the perfect game for me to play while I study to get my LMHC. Oh, you mean people are pretty much good but concepts, religion, and society get in the way? Oh, there's an organized order to things without good and evil, and we can handle ourselves well without resorting to dogmatic punishments of self and others? Wild. I LOVED the Gold Mask plot my first time through. It's new for Miyazaki to have the current hegemonic religion be represented in Int/Fai ideas, since in the Souls games Int/Fai builds were always about the "real truth", the power of the Dark Soul that lay at the heart of humankind. In Elden Ring, though, it almost represents your faith in the Golden Order, but also your understanding of the Order itself. It's neat to think that while casting a Golden Order incantation, you are demonstrating your knowledge of the Order, and therefore how you see reality unfolding through it. Gold Mask dedicated his life to understanding this order and "solving" what keeps going wrong, only to realize the problem is the egos involved that corrupt and change what the natural order would actually be. It's a very Daoist, Wu Wei kind of look at the Enlightenment and Christianity.
I wouldn't say that the dark soul of humanity was the "real truth" of Dark Souls. Miyazaki has said that the First Flame, or the embers of it, are very fragile but also important. While the main game shows us the bleak world that is caused by the obsession with linking the flame, I feel the theme of the AotA DLC shows us the destruction that wild humanity brings. It always seemed to me that the Message of Dark Souls is that these are two forces that you have to constantly balance, natural humanity and civilization. Great comment though.
@@visperad541 Real truth was definitely not the most precise wording for what I mean, but I've always kind of seen the dark builds about understanding the actual nature of humans: The fact that "humanity" stems from the Dark. I actually think it could be claimed that hollows in the Souls series are humankinds' original form, and I think this mostly from the things Aldia says in SotfS. In fact, I'd even argue Oolacile is a perfect example of calm, but also volatile nature of the Dark Soul. A big thing Aldia talks about is the first sin, and the "so-called" curse. He first says this: "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And men assumed a fleeting form." A "fleeting" form would be one that is short lived, just a flash in the pan. "These are the roots of our world. Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite... A lie will remain a lie. Young Hollow, knowing this, do you still desire peace?" (mind you, this was all before this was confirmed in Dark Souls 3!) He describes all of this as the "roots of our world", that humans were somehow branded by the Lord of Light, Gwyn, in order to make humans "pawns on the stage of life". To remove this fact, to find peace, would be to undo everything we know and hold dear. He then says this line that confused me for a while: "Peace grants men the illusion of life. Shackled by falsehoods, they yearn for love, unaware of its grand illusion. Until, the curse touches their flesh. We are bound by this yoke. As true as the Dark that churns within men. All men trust fully the illusion of life. But is this so wrong? A construction, a facade, and yet... A world full of warmth and resplendence. Young Hollow, are you intent on shattering the yoke, spoiling this wonderful falsehood?" He describes "a world full of warmth and resplendence" as false, a byproduct of some "illusion of life". But what is this illusion of life? Life itself, as we know it. Love, warmth, beauty, all of these things fade with time. Time, as well as a short lived life, is what humans are gifted with. We love and yearn for this illusion "until the curse touches our flesh," or until the Dark Sign shows itself. At this point our true nature is revealed: A body that never dies but a spirit that might falter over time. The Gods, by contrast, have been immortal because no such limit was ever placed on them. We then learn in the final DLC for DS3 that Gwyn did, in fact, seal the Dark Soul away. This is what the Dark Sign is. When the fire starts to fade, the "seal" weakens and humankind's true nature emerges: Immortal beings that are apt to lose their drive and go hollow. We can even see the Dark Sign is a broken circle. In my view, Gwyn constrained the Dark Soul, resulting in humanity having a shorter, fleeting life. Human society is built on this fact, even if it is a lie. The Dark Soul is actually a very peaceful thing, as we see in the abyss, but it is also violent and horribly destructive when there is too much of it. According to Aldia, both of these truths are the actual nature of humankind, at least in my interpretation. Humans were bound to constrain this power, but in this happening we forgot what and who we really are. I'd totally love to hear your thoughts! Once upon a time DS2 lore was my jam.
@@McSwift0421 I'll probably respond tomorrow (just got off work-->bed), but I would love to! I also use to love Dark Souls 2 lore, still like it, but Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne are my jam, now Elden Ring. Honestly, all the stuff with Aldia and Vendrick in Ds2 are fantastic.
i just stayed up all night watching you, ZioStorm and Mike Derret yall are amazing! and too think i led down this rabbit hole cuz i saw alchemy in Zelda lmao my 3rd eye feels like it has opened thanks! lol
Outstanding video. Thanks for sharing all this. I find myself, whenever I watch something like this, comparing the info to my initial interpretation of the game's events (that Marika is a spiritual eugenicist and a fascist). But lately, and especially while watching this, I have a greater appreciation for the richness of mystery presented throughout the game. It's truly incredible a game can present so many sides of its own story, while remixing so much human history, and leave me with a greater appreciation for what I don't know.
I keep telling people this game is about the dissemination of information, propaganda, and how religion can break your brain. And mushrooms. (really its about everything) I'm glad you mentioned not trusting the narrator of the item descriptions. I feel like that has been an aspect of Miyazaki's writing since DS1 at least, since item descriptions will sometimes contradict each other and finding out who could have wrote what, and from what perspective, also feels like part of the story. I love your videos.
I dunno why this theory hasn't caught on but I know I'm not the only one: Considering how the item description are biased and HOW they're biased, they kinda point towards a certain person... Who's the guy who's about writing and books? Who's the guy who seems to have strong opinions on certain topics and people? Why Gideon Ofnir of course! And the more you think about it, more it makes sense why he would write the scoutbook that all Tarnished use.
I dont agree with that sentiment. Otherwise you could chalk every single thing written as nothing at all if you used that logic. The lore written Is the lore written by the game developers. Now if the narratorr of each source is MEANT to be an unreliable narrator that is one thing. But the vast majority is there for the story and worldbuilding and theres no reason to suggest that they are conniving the entire narrations when they need to flesh out the world design with concrete information in most areas.
@@nelson_rebel3907 There's item descriptions that suggest this a bit! The crucible talismans mention that aspects of the crucible were once deemed holy, but are now disdained as an impurity! Miquella also has different beliefs that extend beyond the beliefs of the Erdtree. The twin birds used to be depicted as two birds (twin kite shield) but are now depicted as humans (angel scythe). History shows a change in attitude!
I´m only 13 minutes in and I am impressed and stunned by the thoroughnessand extent of your research. Currently sick at home, this is like finding a crucible of Elden Ring Lore. Thank you.
Its incredible how much souls games can help us emotionally and spiritually. Your video that had talk of the buddha and still flowing water has been immensely helpful and I'm grateful its stuck with me. Thank you lady Quelaag, your videos have been excellent.
Thanks for this. I've often wondered what it is about this game that keeps me playing and watching vids and all that stufff - and it's quite simple, it's just that deep.
I remember hearing this once and I don't remember where it is from, but I was reminded of it again when you talked about convergence and the eyes of the fire giant/jupiter and the occurrence of round things in round shapes. It reminded me of this quote which I do not remember if I made it up, or read it somewhere: "Everything in nature wants to be a circle"
This is an awesome video. Really well made, you put a lot of time into this and it's conveyed so well. So happy I found your channel! Subbed for more!! 😄
I jusy found your channel and am wondering why the algorithm of YT never presented you before today? Everything you talk about is exactly what I'm interested in when it comes to world building and the ins and outs of it all and you do an amazing job at what I've seen so far. Thank you for being awesome. I'm stupidly excited to watch more of your vids. 😆 Stay spiffy
I love how you bring up how deprived he was of video games growing up and couldn’t play til college. The man made the games we always wanted to play that he just couldn’t.
Was reading some Rosicrucian lit today (The Sanctuary of the Self) and the way they describe the Word/Logos sounds a lot like The Elden Ring. And I guess that makes Marika the word made flesh 🥁
An excerpt: “Philo, a Jewish Eclectic philosopher, at the beginning of the Christian era, developed the Logos concept into a most important central doctrine of a philosophy which found its way into the theological dogmas of some of our present prominent religions. To Philo, the Logos was, on the one hand, the Divine Wisdom, the producing rational power of the Supreme Being. In other words, the Logos was the Mind of God. On the other hand, the Logos was not the absolute nature of God-it was not the substance of the deity. It was rather an attribute of His nature. It was reason coming forth from Him as an emanation. It was held to be the “uttered reason.” Thus from this we find that again the Logos takes on the significance of the Word, namely, the expressed will or “utterance” of God. The Logos or Word was held by Philo to dwell within the world. God was not immanent in the world. He transcended it, but the Logos, his Word, descended into the sentient world as a mediator between God and man.” Excerpt From The Sanctuary of Self Ralph Maxwell Lewis books.apple.com/us/book/the-sanctuary-of-self/id943577101
came here to catch up on lore before the dlc and the Yoko Taro name drop caught me off guard lol I'd be interested if you did some lore analysis for his work!
33:20 its interesting how you can in the roots, kinda see a double helix, in the 2nd iteration of the holy symbol, with the leaves, but once the leaves fall and leave only branches, the shapes become hard and angled, and the roots "straighten out"
@@quelaag I feel as though a distinction can be made between the incantations used by hunters and the basic principles of fundamentalism. The theme of convergence is really in quite a lot of places, think what I said about the Crucible, but also to some degree the Primordial Current (and the One Great maybe?) To be fair I'm probably stretching here but how I see it, the Greater Will made the core concepts of the world, which were then twisted in some some way to hold with the ideals of the Golden Order. IIRC this is a theme in Goldmasks quest no?
This thing is Miquella, i was confidant with that just from the intro cutscene but there is also my insane web of conspiracy because i cant rule out marika, radagon, and miquella are all part of a singular being. The white hair is always miquella, the red is radagon, and the black is marika. I am loving your vids but i want to pull my hair out constantly when there is clear connections to prior games that help explain so much and you still assume they arent connected. The miyazaki man is a madman and in a isolated reality that isnt composed of the same elements as ours there can be many permutations, but what if there was something at the core governing all these worlds we have played? There is so much in dark souls 1 we never understood and the relationship of gwyn and his queen (velka) is super relevant. I think we have missed the concept of love that miyzaki has placed in prior games and love plays a role here that explains events. Your vids still rock and give me so much to consider thanks for doing it.
I would like to think of the Elden beast as a lovecraft like being who was able to get to the lands between and well take over but there are other entities that are on the outside trying to get it
In that still of Goldmask from the intro, I always read that as him seeing the grace again after so long and quite literally just dropping everything and fixating on it. This looks like someone obsessed to me. In a state of religious stupors if you will.
I always viewed the Rune of Death as the top of the outermost ring of the Elden Ring. It closes the circle. It is the close to life. But by removing it, Marika left it open, no end.
An interesting video/topic I think you could discuss is the idea of "Grace". Tarnished. Omen. The Nomadic people of the Great Caravan. As far as we know, these are the groups that definitely certainly are born without grace. Demi-humans, Ancestral people, the Carian royals pre-Radagon and Raya Lucarian scholars; are all these groups/factions also graceless? What does it mean to have the Erd Tree's Grace? Does it give you strength? Vigor?
Metals! It seems that grace and influence has to do with electricity, fire, and light. I talk about it a lil bit in my metals video. Tarnished gold struggles to conduct electricity
@@quelaag That is fascinating. I was wondering a lot about it since we have an idea of which groups have grace and which ones do not. Yet there are discrepancies in how these different graceless groups are treated and identified with 3 in particular being explicitly "extra" shunned/disliked/reviled. Maybe because the term "Tarnished" refers specifically to people who had their grace taken while for others, these are groups completely removed from the Erdtree and the Greater Will?
@@Leothemoose it has a lot to do with the “gold of the soul” in western alchemy. We need to go through a process to untarnish ourselves to conduct faith. Demi humans and other animals wouldn’t have this aspect according to western philosophy
just here to point out that saint juniper (talked about at 24:55 ) is reffered as "Juniper (friar)" or "Brother Juniper" on wikipedia, as Saint Juniper takes you to Junípero Serra an 18th-century Californian missionary, got a little confused reading his wikipedia page ^^ Great video, lots of interesting stuff, i already like Golden mask very much as a character, and am now much more into it thank you
Im only barely into this video at the moment, but before i continue i want to put down what I personally think about the elden ring as a concept before i continue, that way i can sort of compare my ideas before and after. When i look at the elden ring, i see a sort of computer or logic engine. Each rune represents a piece of the circuit that represents life as a whole. In this way we have an interesting concept flipped on its head. People in elden ring's universe would probably think of actual computers as magical in nature, meanwhile the elden ring is in of itself a computer powered by supernatural means. Of course then, you have the elden beast. The living manifestation of life, or at least the processes and systems that make it up, as it is also the elden ring. Normally this role would be filled by a sort of nature deity, but i feel the elden beast can fit this role in a more expansive sense. Representing not simply biological processes, but even the surrounding fundamental forces of the universe that life interacts with, and could not exist without. The design of the elden beast evokes this as well, i think. We have the "eye" of the beast representing a sun, the crucibles of new types matter in the universe. Spewing forth from it, but not quite touching it, we have what is almost an evolutionary tree. (I like to think this would represent life evolving on planets near their home stars) And then of course its overall body design. It has hands, a hallmark of great intelligence. It has wings, ones that almost look like flippers, giving it the greatest mobility available to life. Its massive in size, an advantage to many creatures. It has many of the features best suited for life, while still retaining its wholly alien nature. Overall, its very alien. Powerful in a way we probably havent had the chance to fully see yet.
Marika is Gwyn 2.0 in that they are the top god/rulers who cause most of their setting's problems because they want their age to last longer and led to the ostracizing of the player character's people who get shepherded to play a role in extending said age. Also they are husks of their former selves stuck in a place of great significance to the origins of their worlds. Also are Outer Gods supposed to represent pagan deities/rituals that are shunned when organized religion (the Golden Order) became dominant?
25:54 It... IS very possible, since the script seems to be the Finger's Code, and Goldmask seems to be able to "finger-write". This sigil could be the pinnacle of Goldmask's research and insight. (Also, there was a mini-power outage when I was writing this comment, so that's a sign!)
Thank you very much for giving us more insight about the game. His concept of hiding lore worked perfect in Souls, Bloodborne and Sekiro but i don´t like it in Elden Ring. It feels like they keep 95% of the lore hidden and thats just too much and not much fun to hunt lore because it´s simply not possible to find clear answers.
I love the way you structure these videos! What do you use to put it all together? I use Milanote for projects right now, but I’m struggling with the fact that I can’t infinitely expand the canvas around it as my project expands
I was reading about this "Lady of Mercia" and could not help but wonder if this was the inspiration for Lady Merika of Elden Ring The Elden Ring in this case also represents the various kingdoms, much like England and its various kingdoms. Furthermore, Mercia seems to translate to the "middle kingdoms" or "the Lands in between" as they are known in Elden Ring So, imagine how closely the story of 'Aethelflaed, Lady of Mercia' parallels to "Merika, Queen of the Lands in Between" and how forging the Elden Ring was much like forging a kingdom alliance. The historical account of Aethelflaed also includes an additional parallel with Merika in that she remarried for politically strategic reasons; this is similar to how Merika takes Radagon as a husband despite him being wed to Rennala, Queen of the Full Moon (perhaps she can been seen as another character in the story of Aethelflaed, or perhaps not, but it is a bit of intrigue, nevertheless!) Finally, the last point to make is how the dragons were once again the "enemy" of the established Order, as it was in the previous Soul's installments. Note the absence of snakes in Ireland... this seems to be yet another parallel that we see between the 2 warrior Queens Mercia & Merika historycollection.com/aethelflaed-lady-of-mercia-britains-forgotten-warrior-queen/
I love how some authors act like historians. They'll give an interpretation of their own story, as if they aren't completely sure, placing themselves alongside the audience, partly because if anyone makes something as significant as a fantasy "retelling" (although that undersells the creativity of the works) of an actual historical conflict, they are acting as a historian and a fiction writer. This adds intrigue into the story after the fact, without that being their intention, they genuinely cannot comprehend their own brilliance.
12:24 You ever have that moment where someone else forgets a word and it's immediately erased from your brain at the exact same time. Glad you got it because I'd have had to check a thesaurus at that point.
One of the most substantive lore videos I've ever seen... whenever I watch other lore videos I feel almost silly cuz who cares but bringing all the symbolism back to real world religion make it so much more engaging.
I always kind of assumed that it was just the great runes combined to sort of be the ‘basic code’ of the lands between, mostly because it’s said that Marika removed the rune of death, like deleting a line of code from a program
