The Evidence that Joseph Smith was a Polygamist | Mormonism LIVE! 131 

Section 132 is the most ellaborate excuse ever given to a woman by a man who got caught committing adultery with Fanny Algeer

If the Internet ever fails, the first thing the Mormon Church will do is rewrite its history.

Holy crap!! The part where Lindsay talks about wondering if the meals she made her family were good enough to keep her from being replaced is so sad and something I never would have thought of. I appreciate her emphasis on the power dynamics and effects on women outside of sexuality. I also don’t think the effects of sexual exploitation should be discounted.

Lindsay is 100% correct! Polygamy is about power just like rape is about power. 😢

Thank you so much for taking on this annoying internet claim. You all did very well. I learned some things. Lindsay is exactly right that polygamy was about power.

THIS should be the polygamy lesson each D&C year in Sunday School (for the wards that don't skip that week with Ward/Stake Conference). My parents wouldn't make it 10 minutes in if they were subjected to actual History! Pretty telling that the older women getting lots of land and marriages to Joseph are the same ones that go to the younger women as "Mothers In Zion" to encourage them to accept Joseph's proposals.

Heard a salt lake “authority”say about eight years ago, “the church is trying to distance themselves from polygamy entirely.” Good luck 🤞🏼

I am embarrassed to admit that I bought into the Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy story for years, which kept me believing in the church longer than I would’ve otherwise. This podcast episode is very needed and helpful for anyone who is also using that conspiracy theory to make themselves feel okay about the horrible truth of Joseph Smith’s lies, deception, coercion, and manipulation.

This is a bombshell. I have convinced myself JS did not practice polygamy. I'm just rocked right now

I found it really interesting that the more I sincerely tried to open my heart to understand polygamy, the more depressed I became over the matter. That is NOT a fruit of the spirit. When I finally came to the conclusion that polygamy is not of God and NEVER WAS, that's finally when the depression over the matter was lifted. I will never ever be weighed down by the false doctrine of polygamy. "The truth shall set you free."

it’s great to see Lindsay and Brian on a video podcast instead of just disembodied voices

I love how when you guys do these deep dives into church history you end up finding some new piece of evidence or new connections. I love it. Nice work

You should do an episode going over the evidence of the other side. I’d say it is equally as strong, if not stronger, and I am curious of your opinions on it. A discussion with Michelle Stone would be awesome. The one fact I can’t ignore is that Joseph didn’t have children with ANY of his 30-40 wives, most of which he supposedly had sexual relations with. Emma was pregnant perpetually, even while Joseph was in Carthage. There is also no contemporary evidence from any of them. So you’re telling me that 40 women married Joseph Smith, who they thought was God’s true ordained prophet on the earth, and not one of them mention it in a journal, letter, or anywhere until 30 years after the fact? And most of them happened to later be wives of Brigham or Heber? That’s reeeeeal fishy. There are children and contemporary evidence all over the place for Brigham, Clayton, Bennet, and everyone else who practiced polygamy in secret, but none for Joseph? Again, fishy. And the contemporary evidence that does exist for Joseph’s polygamy really isn’t that strong. Bennett’s writings are suspect for obvious reasons. It all hinges on the journal of William Clayton, which is already suspect because he was an avid Brighamite polygamist, and moreover is kept hidden. The church said they’d release it years ago and seem to be backing out of that. Patrick Mason worked with the history department and said that everything they release is reviewed and approved by the brethren. He said some of it they will never be make public. Why? Because it hurts their claims. If the journal of William Law is faked it is an enormous blow to the polygamy argument. I’m not convinced either way, but to do a thorough rebuttal you need to analyze both sides.

For anyone genuinely interested in starting to understand the other side: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-aE9_2aQajno.html

I was so pleased to see Lindsay and Bryan on this episode!

Great episode! Thank you so much. 2:21, I cried when Lindsay mentioned about Helen Mark Kimball. I can’t thank you enough for this episode.

This is a fantastic deep dive and I truly appreciate all the work involved. Fantastic guest commentators too! Thank you!

Haha, it's awesome that this video was posted on the same day as the Nauvoo Expositor. That's some full-circle beauty.

Great episode! Thank you for the in-depth review of contemporary documentation!

Thank you for this discussion and for presenting your research so clearly. I really enjoyed it and I learned a lot!

Flora Woodworth: Joseph gave Emma, Flora and (I think) Eliza Snow, gold watches. Emma was suspicious of Flora at the time, and saw the watch on Flora, and confronted Joseph and Flora! I wish I could have seen that!

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. . . . I am innocent of all these charges. . . . What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." -Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6:410-411 "Joseph Smith was the greatest victim of fraud and conspiracy of the last 500 years. Nothing like it in recorded history. He was simply lied about when something had to be done to justify . . . Utah Mormon polygamy." -President Israel A. Smith, grandson of Joseph the Martyr (Letter to Pamela Price, September 17, 1956)

Fantastic evidence. Thanks you guys for all your hard work.

Joseph-Smith-polygamy-deniers are akin to flat-earthers. I was a missionary for the LDS church when I first encountered other kinds of Mormons who, to my great surprise, believed in this conspiracy theory. Now as an exmo I realize that this practice of ignoring evidence to maintain a narrative to which they are emotionally committed is septic throughout all aspects of Mormonism. I must give partial credit to anyone who recognizes that D&C 132 cannot be a revelation from a loving God. I wholeheartedly agree with that belief! However, I can't see how a mainline LDS who believes this conspiracy theory can still have even a shred of faith in Joseph's successors.

I'm gonna have ta go ahead and disagree with the lovely Lindsay just a little bit on her statement that polygamy was about power, not sex. Speaking as a heterosexual male, I can assure her that it was about sex. 🙂 This is exemplified by William Law's remark in his 1887 interview: "Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this.” Some men are just "players." Their psyche induces them to try to "conquer" as many women as possible. When I was a 21 year old returned missionary, I ran around for a short time with a 20 year old Mormon kid in my ward who confided in me that he had been to bed with 100 girls. Years later, I learned from his mother that he was bipolar, and had spent his life in and out of jail. And you hear stories about men like Wilt Chamberlain, who supposedly bragged about having sex with 2000 women. I've only had sex with one woman in my 68 years. Of course I've been attracted to other women, and I assume that a few of them have been attracted to me, but in my moral worldview, when you make a vow to be faithful to that one person, you stick to it. Rather than using sex to gain power, Joseph Smith used his attained power to obtain sex. But the bothersome thing about his practice is how he was able to fool so many women with his tale of "God has sent me a revelation that you are to become my spiritual wife" yada yada. Some of the women, such as Martha Brotherton and Nancy Rigdon, wisely spurned him and exposed him, but it really upsets me how so many women in the Victorian, prudish era could fall for it. Another aspect of it that bothers me is that Joseph's side women knew that they were having sex with a man who was married with children. So that made those women adulterers too. Considering the danger Joseph faced with his foolish sexual appetite, it's not surprising that polygamy led directly to his death.

lindsey was spot on. just as rape is about power and not sex, polygamy is also. JOE had total power over the sex lives of all these women. i recall when i lost a relationship, the thought nof her with another guy bugged me the worst. smiths jealosy im sure had alot to do with him controlling all these women

Great team presentation! You made a very compelling case. Thank you for all of the research and hard work!

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

I’d be curious to know of all the polygamous relationships we know of from Nauvoo, how many produced children? Was it just Joseph that wasn’t having kids? I know William had some kids but with how many different wives? Did Bennett have kids? Did Brigham produced any kids that could have been conceived during the Nauvoo period? I wasn’t able to immediately find those answers on the internet.

This was another fantastic episode. You presented a lot of excellent research and sparked some questions I plan to research on my own. To me, that’s a perfect podcast. Thank you!!

The first time I ever learned of Joe Smith’s polygamy, was in a required religion course I took at BYU-why would The Church’s university be preaching “lies” about one of its own?? Come on y’all, this is one of the rare things the LDS Church is actually willing to reveal (mostly) so step aside and let it happen; we could use a WHOLE lot more transparency like this

Bill you did a great job in this presentation of the documents and in my opinion proved your point.

Sex seems secondary, perhaps even tertiary, to Joseph binding himself to men to stay in power as well as binding all the men together in the cabal to bolster Joseph's religious and political power as well.

I love Lindsey’s well spoken points on the “real impact” of patriarchy bullshit of polygamy. I wish I could say similar patriarchy bullshit wasn’t in the current church, but it is very alive. This is why I don’t push my daughters to go to church when they, like many young women loose interest, in their teens.

This was so important. A lot of people are moving to the side that Brigham Young rewrote the history, and Joseph was a true prophet though fallen. I feel like that is a soft landing for people deconstructing but can't let go. I was there for sure at one point, and I know that I have family members that are there right now. The tipping point to breaking free is realizing Joseph practiced polygamy in the worst way. Then book of Abraham, then book of Mormon.

The fact that it was not a revelation from God this what makes me sick he just did it because he was nothing bad to dirty old man probably just stay as young girls as young as 14 and is taking other men's wives when they were admissions polyandrous was sickening

Around 37 min, there is a discussion about the Happiness Letter and how some people question if it was legitimately written by JS. If it wasn't written by JS, then that necessarily brings into question the spirit of discernment claim for all the LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators that have quoted this letter in conference talks and attributed it to JS.

I fully agree with this podcast and your evidence. Thank you very much. The only thing I wish you had discussed was Emma’s denial of Joseph Smith’s Polygamy. I think that is often the smoking gun for those who deny Joseph Smith Polygamy.

The story that Joseph fought polygamy is a really good story with a tragic hero arc, but it's just a story, not history

I think the misogyny in religion stems all the way back to the Adam and Eve story.

Fascinating. I couldn't read some of the documents on the screen though, even at full screen. Also, please RFM, use some sunscreen!

At one point Lindsey alluded to a confession in Joseph's journal about consorting with prostitutes 2:30:30 (?) The only thing I have ever read about Joe and the business women were some things Sarah Pratt said many years later. Can anyone expound on this?

These women need the “me too” movement-their economic,social, religious and eternal wellbeing depended on this.

Polygamist he may not have had all his wives at once but Joseph Smith had a harem. He was a power and control freak.

Here's yet another item of evidence which shows that Joseph Smith instituted polygamy. The following is the account of Edward Bonney, who worked closely with Joseph Smith for the last few months of his life. He was an aide-de-camp to Smith in the Nauvoo Legion, and Smith chose him to be a member of his secret Council of Fifty. In 1850, Bonney wrote a book in which he related his dealings with Smith in Nauvoo: "Nauvoo, the head-quarters of the Mormon chief and his satellites, had already increased to a population of sixteen or eighteen thousand...In the spring of 1844, Wm. Law, a leading Mormon, openly charged the Prophet (Joseph Smith) with an attempt to seduce his wife. (This soon after became the spiritual wife doctrine, and was believed, and even preached to some extent by the leaders of the Mormon Church.) This charge was promptly denied by the Prophet, and Law was denounced in the most bitter terms for an alleged attempt to slander the Prophet the holy head of the Church, and as a persecutor of the Saints. Summoned by the high tribunal of the Church, Law appeared, refused to retract what he had said, and again avowed its truth, for which he was immediately cut off from the Church. Being a man of considerable influence, Law drew with him a few of the disaffected members of the Church, who were already tired of bowing in humble submission, and paying tribute to the Prophet Joseph, and being held the ready subjects of his will and pleasure." Keep in mind that Bonney published this in 1850---two years before the Utah church announced that they were practicing polygamy. Because Bonney was a close aide to Smith, he was privy to the goings-on in Nauvoo with Smith and polygamy. Note that Bonney's statement about Joseph Smith and William Law's wife jibes with William's journal entry of May 13, 1844: "He [Joseph] had lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and had found her a virtuous woman." Since Bonney had no way of knowing that Law had written about that incident in his personal journal, Bonney's knowledge of it means that it actually happened. Of course, Bonney's account also corroborates Joseph H. Jackson's very detailed account of the incident, which he published before Smith's death. The upshot being that Bonney's account is one more of many from Nauvoo insiders, high-ranking church leaders, and people closely associated with Joseph Smith which involved him in spiritual wifery. When there are three separate independent sources who all tell the same story, it cannot possibly be false. Also note that Bonney does not mention Brigham Young as having anything to do with the implementation of the spiritual wife doctrine. Bonney only wrote that it was "preached to some extent by the leaders of the Mormon Church." This is exactly as historians have documented Smith's practice: it was revealed only to a few dozen trusted loyalists at first, but denied by all of them in public. And of course, Smith's proposition to Jane Law followed the pattern of his approach to numerous other married women---some of whom accepted his advances, and some who rejected him.

So sorry RFM that you didn't get your full applause at the start of the video. I think a recording of RFM laughing instead of applause would be funny! I just love his laugh!

I have listened to a lot of arguments claiming that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. After all their evidence is presented, none of it definitively proves that Joseph did not teach and/or practice polygamy. In the end, their tautology always boils down to this: 1. No true prophet would commit polygamy. 2. Joseph Smith was a true prophet. 3. Therefore, Joseph Smith did not commit polygamy. If you cannot see the factual and logical flaws in this argument, I'm not going to explain them to you. You need to lay aside church history and study logic. These same people who condemn prophet-worship in the church today, and who present evidence, going back to Brigham Young and going forward, that the church has a practice of telling one story in public while practicing the exact opposite in private, carve out an exception for Joseph Smith. This video presents evidence that this practice of lying began with Joseph Smith, not Brigham Young. What Brigham did, was look over Joseph's "kingdom and glory" and "want to take possession of the whole of it", while carrying on Joseph's secret doctrines and practices to the point of eventually publicly teaching and enforcing them, all the while building up the image of Joseph Smith in order to create a platform for him (Brigham and future leaders of the Brighamite dynasty, and gullible church members) to stand upon. Let's take a look at the Old Testament. Contrary to what Section 132 says, the Lord did not "justify" anybody practicing polygamy, but neither did He condemn polygamy. Polygamy was simply a cultural practice of the time, and the Lord worked with it, just as He suffered the people to have a king, contrary to His will. Gideon was a prophet, judge, and a deliverer of Israel. The man walked and talked with God. The man had numerous wives and one concubine. He had 71 sons. Who knows how many daughters? God never condemned Gideon or shut off the flow of revelation to him. Saul had several wives. Saul lost his kingship, not for his wives, but for his disobedience. David had several wives. David was condemned, not for his polygamy, but for the murder of Uriah. Solomon had thousands of wives and concubines. Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived, and built the temple. Solomon never lost his wisdom or kingship, but was condemned because his wives turned him to idolatry. You can read all of this in both the King James and the Joseph Smith translations of the Bible. I say this, not in support of polygamy. It was a damnable and detestable practice that subjugated, enslaved, and devalued women. It did it then, and it does it today. What I am saying, is that this practice will not, in and of itself, prevent an otherwise righteous man from receiving the oracles (revelations) of God. We are all sinful. Joseph Smith's defenders and worshippers acknowledge that he wasn't morally perfect, but can't bring themselves to name even one flaw in his character. If you blow away all the smoke and block your eyes from the glare of the halo that has been created around Joseph Smith, you see that he actually restored very little and taught very little new or original doctrine. Without even looking for it, I have been able to gather evidence of doctrine or practices that pre-date Joseph Smith, that he had access to, and could have easily synthesized into a cohesive set of Mormon doctrine. And, let's not forget, Oliver and Emma were no dummies, and could have been of material assistance. I'm not saying that much of it wasn't inspired or useful. Joseph and Oliver and Emma built an incredible body of principles that we can draw on and use today, but you can trace most of it back to other religious teachers of the day, and an incredible knowledge of the Bible. As I said, much it is inspired. I use it in my life today, and can confirm much of it through independent research and personal revelation. But, my point is, you don't have to believe in the church (which I don't), or even believe the historical narrative (which I don't), or set Joseph Smith up on an impossible and unreachable pedestal, in order to believe, come to know, and advantage of a clearer knowledge of Gospel principles.

Oliver Cowdery never took into account that Joseph was granted Barn Sealing powers before his encounters with Fanny Alger on the haystacks. The Barn Sealing became effective upon contact.

I'm shocked! Just totally shocked, but not the way most of these comments reflect. I'm 63. When I was a teen, (70's) it was common knowledge that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. The very notion that he did not is news to me. I left the church in '08 and I have not been looking at church related social media until now, I'm just shocked at the changes, but then...one of the reasons I left was that I felt like the church was changing.

In 1905, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner told an absolutely bizarre story (from 1842 in Nauvoo) about an angel appearing to her in her room in the middle of the night to reveal the truthfulness of polygamy to her. Except her aunt woke up in the bed next to her, so the angel ran across the room and jumped out the window before he could proclaim anything to Mary Elizabeth. The following day, Joseph asked Mary Elizabeth if she had received a visit from an angel (wink, wink): "Joseph came up the next Sabbath. He said, "Have you had a witness yet?" "No." "Well," said he, "the angel expressly told me you should have." Said I, "I have not had a witness, but I have seen something I have never seen before. I saw an angel and I was frightened almost to death. I did not speak." He studied a while and put his elbows on his knees and his face in his hands. He looked up and said, "How could you have been such a coward?" Said I, "I was weak." "Did you think to say, 'Father, help me?'" "No." "Well, if you had just said that, your mouth would have been opened for that was an angel of the living God. He came to you with more knowledge, intelligence, and light than I have ever dared to reveal." I said, "If that was an angel of light, why did he not speak to me?" "You covered your face and for this reason the angel was insulted." Said I, "Will it ever come again?" He thought a moment and then said, "No, not the same one, but if you are faithful you shall see greater things than that." And then he gave me three signs of what would take place in my own family, although my husband was far away from me at the time. Every work came true. I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing, and Heber C. Kimball the blessing." This story is so crazy, it has that "you just can't make this up" element to it. To me, it appears that someone put on an angel costume, snuck into Mary Elizabeth's bedroom, and was about to declare the "truthfulness" of polygamy to her, but had to bail when someone else in the room woke up. If Mary Elizabeth simply made this story up, then she concocted the clumsiest, most inept angel of all time, while also presenting Joseph as impatient and angry ("How could you have been such a coward?") She definitely failed to smooth the wrinkles out of the story, whether she was inventing a "faith-promoting" experience or not. I also struggle to believe that anyone could have successfully coached her into attributing this experience to Joseph if it was in fact Heber, Brigham, or someone else that perpetrated the scheme.

Can you explain the kinderhook plate connection?

New guy here--exploring faiths--Doc J.. From an outside view I hear a lot of statements, conjecture, and lecturing with no citation. Most sources are not credible and most material seems relative an loaded with opinions that are deeply subjective. The Radio Free Mormon puts a lot of words in the mouths of the witnesses and situations, and Ms. Hansen-Park seems to be a typical social worker and gets preachy from an emotional platform with no citation 50:17, for example. "...sometimes Emma Smith" What does that even mean? "Beautiful". Please expound. Trading favors? Strange concept. Where do we learn this? Is it a tenant today? Who was her source material? Where did this practice begin? Is it like the Catholic Indulgences but with human trafficking? Social workers tend to preach while forgetting social dogma/gossip is not always a standard. I am seeing a lot of this phenomena in this video and it would seem they are more preaching to the choir about what they absolutely need to believe. If this were a peer reviewed article in written form it would Never make it past an IRB in the first 4 minutes. as my kids say, "click bait" for the sheep. Again, 53:03--story time. And all the off topic stuff? what is the point of this really? to undo Mormondom? Odd video and an odd bunch.

Polygamy might be an issue of power, but sex was a driving force. Don’t try to deny this.

Brigham Young also perpetuated this fictitious Revelations so to speak basis so despicable

Funny how all the people really pushing to minimize polygamy seem to be dudes. Lol. There are only voices but I can’t stop but picture them as single dudes in a basement wishing they had a date.

This is not a conspiracy. There are so many testimonies, detailed reports and written records which confirm his polygamy it’s not even an issue. But… lots of truly wonderful Mormon families have a personal commitment and investment in denying these very sad but true facts.

However, according to Alexander Neibaur, Jane Law had actually asked to be sealed to Smith after he had refused to seal her to William. According to the rumor, Smith had denied the couple because William was guilty of adultery (William had confessed his actions to Smith), though he did not tell Jane his reasons.[6] In committing the sin, Law felt like he had transgressed against his own soul.[7] ....(wikipedia source).......thoughts🤔

David Fullmer and Desdemona Fullmer are my ancestors. My mom loves to brag about that. Desdemona's experience per "In Sacred Lonliness" is heart breaking.

Excellent research, presentation and panel discussion. Lindsay was important, as this topic demands a woman's voice. Why do lds folks think it's somehow going to be ok to share your husband with other women, as long as it's not now, but *only* for all of eternity!?

Need more of the cattle and chattel quotes from utah polygamy

I posted the following on a different forum wherein this issue was being discussed. Some readers here might find it informative. A TBM asked: "I'm aware of the several sources that accused Smith of practicing polygamy... And of how his public denials and his declarations that such accusations were a nuisance led directly to his death. "I'm most interested in contemporary sources that were friendly to the prophet supporting the accusations that Joseph married additional wives and had sex with them." I responded: In order for you to accept the truth of the issue, you must first need to understand that Smith had all of his initiates into polygamy swear vows of secrecy----much like today's temple endowment ceremony, wherein patrons swear oaths to not reveal its secrets. The pattern for these Masonic-inspired oaths of secrecy was first used in Missouri in 1838, when Smith and Sidney Rigdon founded their paramilitary group known as the Danites. This is from their initiation oath: "I furthermore swear that no Gentile shall ever be admitted to the secrets of this holy institution or participate in its blessings... I furthermore promise and swear that I will never communicate the secrets of this degree to any person in the known world, except it be to a true and lawful brother, binding myself under no less penalty than to have my blood shed." Smith called his early group of inductees into polygamy the "anointed quorum" or similar titles: "On May 4, 1842, Joseph Smith introduced the temple endowment to a group of nine close associates in an upper room of his Nauvoo store. Over the next two years, Joseph administered this ordinance to more than 50 additional men and women. This group received a ceremonial washing and anointing as part of the endowment, and were later called the “anointed Quorum,” “the Quorum,” the “council,” or the “Holy Order.”.....He selected men and women whom he trusted would treat the sacred ordinances of the temple with reverence and confidentiality." (This quote is from lds.org, but of course it doesn't mention polygamy as part of the order or the temple endowment, because the modern church prefers to separate temple ceremonies from polygamy.) As for your call for "contemporary sources that were friendly to the prophet supporting the accusations", you have to understand that most of the people who spilled the beans about polygamy during Joseph's lifetime were originally "friendly" to him, such as his counselors in the church presidency John C. Bennett and William Law, Nauvoo High Councilor Austin Cowles, and women who spurned Joseph's polygamous propositions such as Martha Brotherton and Nancy Rigdon. Those people and others went public re: polygamy because they knew that it was improper and illegal, and was not something that a supposed leader of a Christian sect should be engaged in. Because those people came forward, the church's leaders and apologists have cast them as evil apostates, liars, and sinners for 180 years now. One example of those dissenters' feelings is from William Law's journal entry of January 8, 1844: "I thank God that he opened my understanding to know between truth and error, in relation to plurality & community of wives, and that I had the fortitude to tell Joseph that it was of the Devil and that he should put it down & I feel that I have opposed a base error and that the eternal God is on my side, and if I am persecuted it is because I vindicate principles of virtue and justice, not that I wish to injure any man, but I love the truth, and hate to see the virtuous destroyed and brought down into corruption and vice." So, William Law is indeed a contemporary source who was "friendly" to Smith until he learned the truth about Joseph's secret polygamy practice. As for your call for info re: Joseph having sex with his plural wives, polygamy wouldn't have even been a controversy if it didn't include sex. If it had just been about platonic "sealings", there would have been no opposition to it. The practice would have just been viewed as a quirky, unorthodox sectarian tenet. As for why there isn't much contemporary evidence from Nauvoo polygamists themselves, you have to understand that the practice violated the laws of the land and of the church. After Joseph's death, Brigham Young and other leaders continued to deny teaching or practicing polygamy until 1852, when they were safely established in Utah territory and had no fear of prosecution. You may be familiar with the story of a debate which John Taylor engaged in while in France, wherein he strongly denied that his church condoned or practiced polygamy---while he at the time had about seven plural wives. So, the fact that polygamists were sworn to secrecy, and the church's official policy was to deny it until 1852 is a big reason why there is so little knowledge about it from Nauvoo polygamists. And the reason we began learning more of the details of Nauvoo polygamy from the 1860s forward is because RLDS leaders and advocates were anti-polygamy, and began questioning the Utah Mormons as to their experiences with Joseph and polygamy in Nauvoo. That's why those Utah Mormons began swearing legal affidavits as to their involvement.

Great show (as always)! I think Lindsey does practice good history, AND I don't think you can study all this without it affecting your perspective for today, but she definitely shows her hand with some bias at 02:28:09 when she says infidelity is a Republican thing...lol. Very odd to view it as a partisan issue--and for the record, I hate Republicans as much as I hate the Democrats. Is she just blind to one side? How about Fang Fang the Chinese spy that made her rounds on Democrat men? To pretend that Democrats are some bastion of fidelity and propriety is just willful delusion.

Have all of hoffman’s forgeries been found?

During the chat, Dan Vogel said One reason for polyandry was to have a cover in case JS got one of his wives pregnant". Can anyone explain this more to me?

Undeniable. Well done y'all 👏👏

I'm with you on this entire presentation and explanations and research, but during the call-ins when the question is asked whether there are any children, I don't think you can 100% dismiss the question. Every woman who was married who may have gotten pregnant would have to ALL have had abortions or XXX if they became pregnant. I DO think that the reasonable explanation RFM stated could be that with 33+ wives, then timing their cycles and ovulation to when they had sex makes perfect sense to me. This is an answer I can agree with to why weren't there any other children to JS. #therewere33+wivestochoosefrom

Wow Lindsay! How many chains? Is my food good enough? Is the house clean enough ? Are their clothes ready? Is my dress proper for church? My hair? The mind boggles...

Read the Price's books, Joseph Fought Polygamy. They spent years studying and searching early documents.

This is all so fascinating. Now if they had just taught this in church...okay I can see end results splits factions members falling away oh right! That's what happened anyway...

It was called taking precautions back then

That’s some weird shit…a girl must be a virgin to be a plural wife. Yet the only way a man can participate in polygamy is to already have been married to another woman/girl 😂

Bill knows the word is provenance, right? And is purposefully using providence for a point?

The "Joseph was a polygamist" platform is crumbling folks. Take heed that ye be not deceived. The Book of Mormon is true. It's between each one of us and God now. The great and spacious building is a big tent. Be careful.

These Joseph Smith polygamy deniers whom I've conversed with cite Joseph's and Hyrum's repeated denials of the practice as evidence that they were innocent. I've attempted to inform them that it was standard operating procedure for Smith and his polygamy initiates to deny it. Here are a few quotes I've compiled which document their deceitfulness: "Lying for the Lord" began under Joseph Smith's leadership: "Fabricated stories designed to protect the [Nauvoo polygamous] individuals are seen elsewhere. Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage. Sarah Pratt was not the only woman to suffer from this policy. The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals.....Jane Law, wife of Smith's counselor William Law, was also blacklisted for rejecting Smith's polyandrous proposal." ("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard van Wagoner, pp. 38-39.) The satirical poem "Buckeye's Lamentation," published on February 7, 1844, detailed how Smith and his fellow polygamists denied their secret practice: "This is the secret doctrine taught By Joe and the red rams- Although in public they deny- But then ”tis all a sham. They fear the indignation just, Of those who have come here, With hands thats clean and honest hearts, To serve the Lord in fear. "Thus, all the twelve do slyly teach, And slyly practice, too; And even the sage Patriarch, Wont have untied his shoe: For sure, ”twould be quite impolite, If not a great disgrace, To have a widow sister fair Spit in a Prophet”s face! "But Joe at snaring beats them all, And at the rest does laugh; For widows poor, and orphan girls, He can ensnare with chaff, He sets his snares around for all,- And very seldom fails To catch some thoughtless Partridges, Snow-birds or Knight-ingales!" The Nauvoo Expositor, published on June 7, 1844, referred to Smith's culture of deceit: "Many of us have sought a reformation in the church, without a public exposition of the enormities of crimes practiced by its leaders, thinking that if they would hearken to counsel, and shew fruit meet for repentance, it would be as acceptable with God, as though they were exposed to public gaze, but our petitions were treated with contempt; and in many cases the petitioner spurned from their presence and particularly by Joseph, who would state that if he had sinned, and was guilty of the charges we would charge him with, he would not make acknowledgment, but would rather be damned; for it would detract from his dignity, and would consequently ruin and prove the overthrow of the Church." The Expositor also detailed Joseph Smith's modus operandi in introducing young female converts from Europe to spiritual wifery, and how he swore them to secrecy: "They are requested to meet brother Joseph, or some of the Twelve, at some insulated point, or at some particularly described place on the bank of the Mississippi, or at some room, which wears upon its front--Positively NO Admittance. The harmless, inoffensive, and unsuspecting creatures, are so devoted to the Prophet, and the cause of Jesus Christ, that they do not dream of the deep laid and fatal scheme which prostrates happiness, and renders death itself desirable; but they meet him, expecting to receive through him a blessing, and learn the will of the Lord concerning them, and what awaits the faithful follower of Joseph, the Apostle and Prophet of God, When in the stead thereof, they are told, after having been sworn in one of the most solemn manners, to never divulge what is revealed to them, with a penalty of death attached that God Almighty has revealed it to him, that she should be his (Joseph's) Spiritual wife; for it was right anciently, and God will tolerate it again: but we must keep those pleasures and blessings form the world, for until there is a change in the government, we will endanger ourselves by practicing it-but we can enjoy the blessings of Jacob, David, and others, as well as to be deprived of them, if we do not expose ourselves to the law of the land. She is thunder-struck, faints recovers, and refuses. The Prophet damns her if she rejects. She thinks of the great sacrifice and of the many thousand miles she has traveled over sea and land, that she might save her soul from pending ruin, and replies, God's will be done and not mine. The Prophet and his devotees in this way are gratified. The next step to avoid public exposition from the common course of things, they are sent away for a time, until all is well; after which they return, as from a long visit." Shortly before Joseph Smith's death, his former aide Joseph H. Jackson published an account of his 20 months working closely with Smith. He also related how Smith introduced women into polygamy, and if any of them objected, he would set his minions out to destroy their reputations: "As I have mentioned the subject of spiritual wives, I will in this place, give the reader some idea of the system. The doctrine is called the "spirit of Elijah," and is kept a profound secret from the people at large, and is only permitted to be known to those, to whom it is given to know the "fullness of the kingdom," in other words, the choice spirits who surround Joe, and aid in carrying his secret measures...Joe had in his employ certain old women, called "Mothers in Israel," such as Mrs. Tailor, old Madam Durfee, and old Madam Sessions, in whom the people have great confidence, but in fact, they are the most depraved hypocrits on Earth. If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations. This was a specimen of the mode and manner of Joe in carrying his vile measures of seduction." On March 29, 1844, Joseph's former counselor in the church presidency, William Law, noted in his journal how Smith attacked the character and reputations of those who opposed him: "March 29. Since my last conversation with Joseph Smith which was on the 8th Jan’y I have had not association with him, as I do not with to associate with evil doers; he has in the meantime been using all his influence to destroy me, he has employed every vile and corrupt man and woman in the city over whom he has any power to circulate veil reports as false as the author of lies, about me and my wife, but he has failed to accomplish his object, for our names yet stand fair and untarnished in the estimation of the virtuous and the good; we find the better part of the community to be our friends; they feel disgusted with Smith’s course for it has been most disgusting loathsome to the virtuous mind, lust, falsehood, injustice, and cruelty have characterized his course towards me & mine in such an unparalleled degree that the unprejudiced could not but see it, and abhor the man and his base acts." In an 1887 interview, Law related how Smith kept his secret practices from the knowledge of his unsuspecting disciples: “In what manner would Joseph succeed to keep you and others from knowing what was going on behind the curtain?” “Marks, Yves, I and some others had, for a long time, no idea of the depravity that was going on. This was simply the result of a very smart system adopted by the prophet and his intimate friends like Brigham Young, Kimball and others. They first tried a man to see whether they could make a criminal tool out of him. When they felt that he would not be the stuff to make a criminal of, they kept him outside the inner circle and used him to show him up as an example of their religion, as a good, virtuous, universally respected brother.”

Just half her love! I mean old JS was not the smoothest of swains.

BREAKING NEWS: A historical document written in Nauvoo, Illinois in 1843 has been discovered which sheds more light on Joseph Smith's polygamy practice. It was written by a 16 year old girl to whom Joseph had recently introduced the doctrine: I looked out the window and what did I see? The Prophet Joseph making eyes at me. It shouldn't come as a complete surprise. The angel told him "Try HER on for size!" Now, I could take a powder and leave the scene, But he'd probably send Porter huntin' after me. I guess it must be so, But I don't wanna be, The prophet's wife number thirty-three.

I have never seen Emma as being blind to Joseph's foibles think she was onto him since the golden plates.

Please label each source in writing

I don't understand what is to be gained by those who deny Joseph started and fully participated in Polygamy. If Brigham started the Principle, is the Church somehow better off and more believable? And not just BY, but the next 4 prophets lived it too, as did their associated apostles, 70, and many other lesser Church officers. And that's all ok, as long as Joseph didn't do it? How does it help the Church in any way to say Joseph didn't do it, when you still revere his successors? You can't turn a blind eye to his successors because there's too much proof, but with the slightest wiggle room available, "Joseph was pure and didn't institute this heinous practice! But we still trust those who came after him as God's spokespersons on Earth..." I don't get it. Brigham Young started it - Church still true! Joseph Smith started it - Church not true??

Looks like Jos Smith was also pretaking land grants based on these girls/some women being wives as he probably assumed at some point he could make them legal as well. Let’s face it the guy had huge ideas! My guess is the wives who were already married before marrying him probably had land as well. Watch the new Movie almost out about theOsage murders “Killers of the Flower Moon” (DiCaprio). In real life about this same time period where white men would marry Osage women who owned OIL Land Allotments-have a kid with the Native woman-then kill her and keep the land thru the child but be free to stay single or marry another. This was happening multiple times! This is when the FBI was formed to investigate these. I wouldn’t put it past Jos Smith to do a similar number on any husband and now be able to claim lands thru her and any child he could claim. that part of Missouri and Oklahoma are only a couple days apart by horse probably. Word travels…

The manipulation and self-interest of Smith et al seem so blatant. I keep getting grossed out while listening to what’s in these documents. Those young girls were guilted into marriage. Nothing sacred about that. Your research is astounding. It would be interesting to see this in a timeline or similar type of graphic organizer. Fascinating.

Does today's Church of Christ accept JS polygamy?

Children Emma Smith needed 6 years to pass the test of a live descendent, and she would have had far more opportunity than all the others combined. She was 22 Joseph 20 and they could not pass that test for 6 years.

Lindsay “ I don’t want to diminish these people “ please they need to be diminished

💗

I would like to know why the panel didn't address that there were no offspring from JS polygamous marriages. Because is that no still a door wide open to "Joseph did dynastic sealings only but everyone else were having sex in their polygamous marriages" ? Or....?

The evidence is in the d & c

Part of the problem is so many members still insist JS was not a polygamist. My ward Relief Society president told the sisters JS only had Emma as his wife. The other plural wives was anti-mormon rhetoric.

I don’t think the LDS church denies that Joseph was a polygamist… I grew up in the church and it was known that he was as well as Brigham Young, and that god took it away because it was no longer necessary. I have never met anyone who believes otherwise…

Joseph was not a polygamist and can debate you anytime.

Uhh... Is this a Mormon YT channel? 😂

This is not news.

I think a lot of Mormons have sexless lives, relationships and marriages. My TBM parents are not demonstrative at all. They don't believe Joseph had other wives except in name only. I've never seen my parents even hold hands. So it's easy for those people to think there was no polygamy or no sex in these polygamous marriages. Or even that it was a relief for polygamous women to get to be celebate. Those women are off the hook! I want to ask these people why they think it was ok to put young women in sexless marriages? And what makes them believe these pioneers didn't have a sex drive? Or how did they control it? By the power of god lol? With the priesthood?

WHATEVER!! LDS CHURCH IS THE BEST CHURCH ⛪️ AROUND. THE KINDNESS N CARING OF THE SISTERS N BROTHERS. AND THE LUV THEY SHARE TO THE COMMUNITY 🙏🏽👍🏽👏🏽💝

the but refers to "nothing but" and is an old form of saying stuff. there's nothing going on but changing language. it's just an exclusionary way to say shit

Clap! Clap!

Here’s Michelle Stone’s response to these points: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-aE9_2aQajno.html

He wasn't!

How do you know that brotherton knew it was Joseph when she had never met him before being in the room with him and Brigham? Is it not possible Brigham had a stand in for Joseph?

It’s shameful that she and Brian just “diminish” people who sincerely have found evidence they find credible enough to see the history a different way. Why not just engage with their actual points? We already know the evidence for polygamy! Why not engage in a good faith discussion about the ample evidence thy he wasn’t??? Get out of your echo chamber and engage in dialogue rather than ridicule…. There is strong evidence that he wasn’t.