honestly, it's nice to see you get a little bit heated about how ridiculous the market has become and how difficult it is to even have the OPPORTUNITY to spend an amount of money on footwear that an average person would faint at. i can't say i blame any of these makers, since the hype is so high that they're somewhat forced to resort to these imperfect selling methods, not excusing their lapses in qc, of course. edit: i think rose anvil's White's take is defensible. Granted he did a collab with one of the pnw brands, i dont remember which, so he would have a monetary incentive, but imo saying whites or any other big pnw brand is the best in north america is fine if i understand where they're coming from. rose anvil used to be a wildlife fire fighter, iirc and his whole shtick is purely about boots built like tanks, and for that pnw work models are best. i dont even think he talks about the neatness of stitching or clicking in his videos cause for the type of boots he likes/wears/reviews, those things are secondary concerns. imagine someone doing construction work or wildlife fire fighting in kreosote's or role clubs lmao it could work but just why
I love this video, I went through this whole same roller coaster and have settled on a pair of Viberg scouts and Truman Moc toes as daily drivers. More expensive does not equate to more happiness.
Great video, really clear points and something that I (relatively new to quality boots) have noticed. Specially with onderhund, that raffle system is just ridiculous. Two year lead times in some pnw brands is crazy. When see that, I have this strong urge to send them am email letting them know that they will never get my money. But I don't want to be a hater 😅. I came here for the video and stayed for the comments! Keep it up man! You have a killer collection ⚡💥
I think the issue is that most of the brands were somewhat niche when you got into them, Jake. I found out about John Lofgren, White Kloud, and Clinch because of you, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Slowly, but surely, these brands have become bigger. Seeing an increase in demand, and trying to keep up with it, plus supply issues are most likely the culprits of the QC problems we’re seeing, unfortunately.
Yeah the more people find out about any of these brands, the higher demand and unfortunately, the higher the chances of issues. There are now quite a few people speaking about and/or promoting these brands. Overall, I'm glad more people are getting into proper boots, but there are downsides.
I would say you should do some Instagram live from time to time. That's actually a good way to exchange with community more directly, I would love to discuss around a live, not just via comments. And this subject is perfect for a live performance. There are so many questions and aspects to discuss.
I’ve ordered two pairs from Sagara and was in constant communication with Bagus the entire time. My Cordmasters had the shifting tongue, but I overlook it because the boots are so killer. His Boondockers were flawless though. I also have a couple pairs of Rolling Dub Trios and their craftsmanship is outstanding.
Dig you bro! Some thoughts, I rather spend less than $500 on a design that looks like a clinch boot than the cost of a clinch boot. Seems like a great opportunity for a company (like grant stone) that make credible boots create that low vamp, slick engineer boot with all of this current demand (without waiting months/years/who knows). Also my guy, I think you and Rose are basing "best" boots from different criteria/metrics. You're a city slicker with neatness and materials in mind, he's a hunter/firefighter with toughness/materials/constructions in mind. You two need to link up, send him one of your clinches to cut in half.
This comment made me laugh out loud. Imagine cutting a pair of white clouds in half or fighting a fire with those things on...😅😅😅 Some boots are for working and some boots are for taking your lady out in the town.
A Grant Stone engineer would be pretty interesting. I'd like to see it. I still see him change his mind constantly based off of who is sponsoring his videos. That's my bigger issue.
I've seen what White Klouds look like on the inside already. It's impressive. My channel is not about hardcore work boots at all. Carl Murawski is better to watch for that info.
Interesting points. I really see two sides to what’s going on with the boots. One side is really about chasing stuff that other people don’t or can’t have. The other side is people who want to have some good shoes. I don’t have a large collection and I’m not intending to. I currently have four pairs of boots-two luccheses I’ve had for more than 10 years, a pair of nicks builder pros I got in February and a pair of Grant Stone Diesels I got a month ago. From my perspective the Nicks and the Grant Stones are both fantastic. I am planning to buy some more Grant Stones in the future and I want to get something from Alden and Whites. It’s probably going to take me a 12-18 months to pick up the rest of what I want. I’m enjoying the boot stuff because I know what I’m getting. I’ve learned how they’re made, I know what goes into it, who’s making it, etc. And everything I have looks good to me. I’m not chasing boots just to have them. I’m using what I’ve learned to buy good quality stuff that will last me a long time-like my luccheses. Chasing something just to chase it isn’t going to be worth it in the end. Diminishing returns set in quickly after about $500. No matter what they cost, in terms of money, effort, and time, it’s still just going to be a shoe at the end of the day. A Lamborghini might cost you $300,000, but it’s just going to drive you from point A to point B, just like a Chevy. Anyway, people need to think about about they’re actually doing.
I agree. Diminishing returns really set in after around $500 or so. Plus, like you said, some of it is chasing a bit of clout and rarity. This is not exclusive to boots. Watches are even worse with this. However, it is definitely part of the problem.
Fantastic content as always and incredibly helpful to a relative newcomer like me. I have a pair of Wesco Quickstrikers and a pair of Van Cleef’s and they’re the perfect set for me. I also recently got those camo John Lofgren shoes that look like converse and they’re awesome.
@@almostvintagestyle I’m sure you’ve tried everything but would a different insole help at all? Agree on the Wesco design on those, I love the toe shape so much. My next pair will be a custom that look like the Van Cleef’s but in all red rough out leather.
I tried purchasing a pair of clinch engineers off S&S yesterday. Literally refreshing the page every 15 seconds leading into the release and still missed out on my size 😭. Spot on take per usual
I always find it weird how many people just have* $2,000 to spend on them at a literal moments notice 😂 Yeah, those objects are pretty neat but I have bills and the army don’t pay that much lol *credit cards, theft, selling your kids, etc
@@almostvintagestyleWell, yeah it isn’t necessary. It’s a special interest. I‘m with Kevin, I can’t spend that much money on a pair of boots and, even more important, I don’t feel the need to have them. I‘m absolutely happy having a pair of Grant Stone Diesel, and I might wanna buy some Viberg one day, but then again there are so many other priorities .. That being said, I totally get where you’re coming from. Your boot collection is awesome, and I really think it’s a beautiful „nerdy“ hobby.
I don’t think calling Rose Anvil a liar is fair. Wrong, biased maybe but liar is too far unless you have some strong evidence, in that case I’d happily say I’m wrong. Seems like you and Westin would have different definitions of a good boot because you have two different perspectives and value different aspects.
Well thats why I said liar OR misinformed. I believe he is simply misinformed or more accurately, has not actually learned about many of the actual best bootmakers in the USA.
You are very right. And for the PNW and handmade space there needs to be a Third Party QC Organization that certifies the companies. And someone needs to take on the project to standardize the lasts...
Well said and totally agree. For me the current best Indonesian boots maker is Sagara. Great communication, only 4 month wait time and the quality of the boots is incredible for what you pay! Whilst John Lofgren gets a bit of stick in the boots community his boots have a unique style and the quality is great!
I was aware of Quan, Flame Panda, and XBXsboots before they became more popular, because I lived in China. I own 5 pairs of Quan boots (they are excellent, and his boots are my top choice from China) Flame Panda (2pairs) are boots with art. They are full of little details for boot lovers, XBXsboots (1pair) feel a bit more generic, without its own personality, but the quality is undoubtedly Top level.
It depends on the issue. I think in some cases, makers need to slow down and double check qc more. If that necessitates a raise in prices, so be it. That may also solve the issue of wait lists being so long. I'm not saying there are perfect solutions to everything here by any means.
Great question. I would not just limit it to price point here, though. I am mostly talking about hand welted boots made by small teams or even 1 or two individuals. In the case of White Kloud, the price is at least $2000. Role Club and Clinch are $1500 and up as well. Some of these makers such as Flame Panda and Indonesian brands start off under $1,000.
@The Vintage Style I have 2 boots from Quan The Shoemaker he can do tamer styles like the 2030 boot basically anything. I like the sprung toe he does. But as far as the correspondence back n forth and the language comprehension and sending you CAD drawings of your design etc he is way better than what I’m experienced from other Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian bootmakers. The buying experience was really good he responds quickly.
I got mine for $750. I like mine, but I don't see myself going about $900 for them personally. You can still get them for around the price I paid if you wait for them to be restocked. Then again, everything is going up.
Do you have cowboy boots? If so what kind and if not why? I think the right pair would look badass with most of your outfits (I'm a Chisos boots man and are the only brand aside from custom that I would recommend).
I want a pair, but there are so many solid makers and most of the best ones require you to be measured to get a pair. I definitely do want a pair eventually
I have a pair of Role Club anniversary boots. Fit for me is spot on and the quality of work is fantastic. Brian was very communicative with me through the process and I got my boots in 10 months. Far better then my custom made Viberg engineer boots
Glad to hear that! My Role Clubs are also fantastic in terms of fit and quality. I just have to acknowledge the people who have had different experiences and let others know that the quality is not guaranteed
Yeah apparently it's up to 4 years now which is crazy. I didn't know that when I filmed the video. My guess is that he would not let anyone cut in line.
The issue (I suspect) with Role Club is that while Brian is the PR face of the company, he certainly has some help at this point keeping up with the demand, I would wager that he is not making every boot himself from start to finish.
That works be interesting. I can't prove that, but I have heard others suggest that. I know he was making them by himself when I got my pair back in 2017
In the watch game, you could be speaking about Patek, Gronefeld, Urwerk, MB&F and others. I moved on from over-hyped in watches and boots, though my Kreosotes should be in early this year. 😏
this is why i like buying sneakers from archibald london. especially their ultralights and their japanese jeans for only 200. they are in collab with momotaro!!
Please bring back some kind of podcast like stitch perfect! ❤ love the 2030s cuz I have weird feet and they still fit perfect. For those of us with custom orthotics things get even more limited.
What are you are getting besides leather, shank, cork and outsole? A great boot can still be built for $500 or less. Japanese brands aren’t the end all to boot making.
After $500, you're paying for things like design, customization in some cases, more rare or special material such as shell cordovan, better finishing, more of a handmade process etc. For example, nothing I have ever worn fits or feels like my white kloud boots do. I cannot get the same boot for less money. With that said, you absolutely see diminishing returns after around 5-700 $
Good take. At the end I remind myself this is a hobby, and I'm not gonna die if I don't get another pair of FPs or win a lottery for NF. I think a lot of us have more pairs than we know what do with. I can see why it is disheartening for some folks to be willing to spend thousands and not have good communication or immaculate finishing. I bet a lot of the small shoe and bookmakers are struggling to deal with demand when they go viral thanks to channels such as yours. I've been behind on 20,000 emails before. It sucks. Hard to climb out of that pit without purging and starting fresh.
Oh wow, that is quite a pit! I can't blame the makers too much, but it is important for potential customers to be aware of the situation. At the end of the day, it's not worth it for everyone.
I have a pair of Georgia boots - work boots, but with a service boot style - and they were cheap, but they are immensely comfortable and look great. Same thing with a pair of Dixon service boots - cheap but comfortable and nice looking. Those 2 pairs together cost less than I paid for a single pair of unremarkable Alden Indys. Factoring in everything, once you fill a wall or closet with many pairs of boots or garments, you're unlikely to ever wear anything out, so these less-expensive brands actually last a long time and stay good-looking. I buy high end and bespoke boots and garments for the comfort, materials and the craftsmanship. I wear them!... and occasionally wear them pretty hard! Yet, the pleasure doesn't come from utility and it doesn't come from what people think of me when they see me wearing the boot/garment... it's about how they make me feel. Also, please don't borrow or go into debt to buy anything "high end" - a nice appearance or your sense of satisfaction isn't worth having debt.
I agree that at the end of the day, it matters most how the boots make you feel. Alden also unfortunately doesn't seem to be a great value for money in objective terms. People like them for a lot of subjective reasons.
i have redwing 9011 beckmans and they have saved me from myself. i love the viberg 310 but when i chuck one on its better than my beckmans but because i have them i dont need to outlay over 1K to get them
i am the type of person who doesn't care of brand but i care about quality and to be able resole them i have currently engineer boots and three pairs of western boots and a service boots
It was worth it to go to Japan to order my White Kloud boots, because I just didn't go to order my boots. I made it a trip to visit museums, a sword making school, and try different types of cuisine. From that aspect the trip was worth it. It's just unfortunate that the wait time is over three years out for the boots to be made...
In your opinion, what is the best high end boot brand that normal people can actually. Also, with a lead time that won't take until my new born nephew is in college.
Talking about watches, I spend WAY more money on watches than boots and clothes. I don’t own any on the super high end boots for many of the reasons you mention. Mainly, sizing and last design are too questionable and preference based for me to take the time, wait a couple years, and then need an insert or worse they’re too small. I’m waiting on some made to measure wescos which still take a long freaking time but are at least much less expensive, and I’m not too emotionally invested if they don’t fit.
Yeah it all depends on what you want to spend your money on. I don't have a watch yet, so I go a little crazier with the boots for example. Hope those Wesco boots turn out how you want!
I love NF bootmaker's boots but I dislike that the lacing quarters are not parallel to the midline of the last and he basically refuses to fix this error in his pattern.
I definitely had to think about this a little bit, but I do not think I would totally throw rose anvil under the bus. I think he usually gives pretty good points for why he believes what he does and generally strives for the truth. However, I could understand some criticism, I just don't believe that you should completely dismiss him. I think that's over the top and almost a hack criticism as he is very popular and it's easy to say things like that. I also don't think I would throw all PNW boots together. Whites can make some really incredible boots but they are inconsistent. Nick's and Frank's are great with quality control. In fact, I would argue that their QC is on par with viberg-- really I would. The downside is that they are more work boots and therefore less elegant typically. I certainly agree with basically all of your complaints, though I think they are just the negative side of what we are looking at: products made by hand. I think it is pretty crazy to spend more than $500-600 on a pair of boots. I also don't really believe you should ever pay full price for something unless you know it is going to be perfect, but that's me.
I wasn't completely dismissing him. I was just criticizing that one thing. There's definitely more I could criticize, but that was not the point of the video. There are differences for sure, but I wouldn't say they are wildly different in quality. I'd put all of them in the same tier. I get what you're saying about spending full price, which is why I mentioned all of this. It used to be basically a guarantee you'd get great boots from a lot of the most expensive brands. It's not that way for all of them anymore.
It's never been worth it for me, if they aren't on the shelf, or in stock online, they aren't for me. Did a couple mto's and the delays made me bitter, never again.
I love my 2 pairs of Roll Clubs i have a service boot and an Engineer with another Engineer on the way. My two pairs are flawless and are perfect. Brians been just fi e to work with and has communicated along the way.
The waits are stupid. I was incredibly lucky to "win" a pair of NF boots. They are insanely nice and I would 100% get another pair (and will try). I do prefer Nathan's method over getting a spot and only waiting a few months vs years with Brian, Gabbard, Peng etc. Also, I just gotta push back on PNW being overrated. I get that they're not your bag, but also no one is hyping them up like these niche makers.
Well I'll say I'm jealous of you! Nf boots look insanely good and he's a nice dude. I think in terms of pnw boots, it depends on who you talk to. Most people do properly rate them as great value for money and excellent materials made solidly, but often with sloppy mistakes. However, I have actually seen many people say they are actually the best and dismiss higher end boots as mere 'fashion' boots which is why I say that they are overrated by some.
Could be nice to have one of that high end boots, but realistically I'm stick to Nick´s and Viberg, even Red Wings for day to day use Is like wait for a Rolex, not worth to wait for a pair a boots. Mid range boots are good too .
hahahahaha i love how you want an a lange and sohne watch i have that disease as well. it ruined my interest in other watches and it totally sucks!! but they are so amazing.
@Jim Shen that's definitely a logical conclusion. Any time you collab with someone or make money from promo codes or do sponsored videos, that's almost guaranteed to happen with anyone
Yeah, everyone has threshold of "how good is good enough." For me -- Red Wing Beckmans or Grant Stone is as good (expensive) as boots need to be. Anything higher than that is unnecessary and not worth the money.
Rose Anvil has been getting a lot of hate over the past year or so… I feel like he gives an appropriate amount of disclaimers(“this is my opinion you may have your own, etc..). The beauty of his channel is that he cuts the boots in half and gives you the ability and information to have your own opinion. You can watch the video with no sound if you prefer, just skip to the cut in half Feel like he is getting more hate than he deserves
This video is almost disingenuous. You and others like you have hyped up all these brands and now they are having problems keeping up. Wait times are ridiculous, pricing has gone through the roof (Indonesian makers are double and triple pricing what they were), and QC is getting worse and worse. Which means that you (and others) can't get what you want anymore. But in the same breath will drool over different brands now which is continuing the same problem. Work boot brands ( Pacific Northwest boots) have been having the same issues. And work boots have a purpose. Fashion boots, while good, certainly should never be this hyped. At the end of the day most people aren't going to get nearly the use from fashion boots as they don't wear them to work, or don't commit to engineers daily like you do/can. And none of these boots are going to wear out and be throwaways if they are taken care of properly. So how many pairs does one actually need for a lifetime of wear? I would argue that an influencer who does nothing but wear Japanese boots and take pictures for the internet everyday is going to get more use from boots than the normal person. Talk about quality, be critical, that is all well and good, but you (and others) are fueling the quantity craze too. And that is where your problems are coming from.
I've already admitted I'm part of the problem. Who is anyone to dictate what is and is not hyped? I have no regrets about hyping White Kloud or Flame Panda because they're amazing boots made by great people. Even the other brands I have that now have issues did not have those issues when I ordered my boots. Also, there's nothing wrong with liking boots because we like them. There doesn't always have to be a practical reason.
@Almost Vintage Style Don't get all butthurt. Like what you want. My point was you specifically said that Wesco was not even good anymore. You said that Role Club was having major problems. Wesco is where all of this started in America. And because of influencers and boot snobs, they have become what they are now. They are trying too hard to cater to fashion boots, customs, and boutique shops. They clearly cannot keep up and their quality has suffered. Same with Role Club. Now you are promoting two other companies while saying how bad the other ones are. They will be next. I'm not even saying that because they are bad companies or bad product. I'm saying that because influencers say "This good. Look at me in good thing." And people buy 127 of them. Influencers need to talk about the quality in a boot and the life of a boot and the care of a boot before promoting the next big brand.
@Findley 563 I even said that those two may be next, so you don't need to explain that. I don't remember specifically calling out Wesco. I called out Whites which is a different situation to Wesco. The quality of pnw brands went downhill before they started trying to cater to the lifestyle market. I've seen photos of decades old pnw boots that are vastly superior to what they make now and they haven't been catering to boot nerds for that long.
I genuinely respect your reflections on higher end boots. I pretty much had to give up on getting anything beyond a Alden because a lot of these brands tend to charge extra for extra wide widths, if they’re offered at all. The wait time is also a massive deterrent so I have all but left boot collecting in this genre. For now I stick with Allen Edmonds because they at least offer my sizes in a great array of options. Alas, the QA for AE is a bit inconsistent but I can at least exchange them with a new pair. So I’ve resigned to dependable mediocrity. I’ve always wanted a pair of engineers but the prices are never listed so I don’t care to invest more time.
Dependability is nothing to scoff at. Plus, I believe that the outfit matters more than the individual components, so if your Aldens and Allen Edmonds fit your style, you're good to go! There are some engineers that are easier to obtain. Wesco ones are usually around $700-$800. Motor is around $750 right now. Briselblack is also around that price too.
If I have to wait more than 3 months (it is why I never order from nicks) for a pair, I am out. Same for more than 500 for regular leather, 700 for horse butt. The Asian boot makers are who I go to now.
As a different take, how about advising newbies in how to get into boots at a lower level of investment so they can enjoy the hobby so they don't start out with such a high risk bet?
That's a great idea! I just wrote that down on my list of video topics. Definitely want to do that along with budget guides for other types of clothing as well.
i see every one of these boot comany's boot's being soled and heeled looks lik for no reason.and a lot of them used on ebayy for sale that a lot of them look like they may have been worn once. hipsters love em but seem they sell em after a 1wear or 2 i own a few pairs of thuredays and some other brand so i switch off a lot, but the very high end boots your friggin nuts if you buy em because you style em on you tube . like said hipster duffes's buy work boot but don't work where their need or go on a hike . putem on a shelf and look at them . at my age i buy what i like but used them .maybe i should have a you tube channel?? roll club!!!!! you'd have to sell your house to afford a bait . are the ones where your wife work any ??good
@@almostvintagestyle This is an important point. Thank you for bringing it up. We are far from perfect. We never claim perfection. We just claim that we make a great boot built to handle the requirements of the toughest jobs. Expect the Rapid-E stitcher to not be friendly some days. Expect the Pfaff sewing machines hiccup sometimes. But also expect a pair of boots that will last and get more comfortable as you wear them. Perfection is not the goal. Durability and comfort are...and they do look pretty damn cool 👊
buy what you can afford, don't make thehigh end boot makers more rich, besides when they've worn out what do you have a worn out boot that cost more to rebuild than was they origanily cost you to buy. or do you leave em in the closet never wear em but just talk about the high end boot you own??
