The Glitch That Killed Majora's Mask Speedrunning (almost) 

Thank you

Thanks!

Just saying missed opportunity here

wii u dev kit v4 owner here. i can help i wonder

Liked comment and video before watching, just because you listed the music. Love when people do this

Zelda games including this one do as well. Majora’s Mask has “No Major Glitches” which are the main subcategories for any% and 100%. Ocarina of Time any% has changed so much, that old routes are preserved as separate categories on the leaderboard (Glitchless any%, No Wrong Warp, Defeat Ganon) or more restrictive categories like GSR which aims to maintain a consistent route.

For just debug mode, srm, and each console; thats 16 extra subcategories for every main category which also, as alrdy mentioned, alrdy do that It wud be rly clunky at this pt, thats for sure

@@SylviaRustyFae while I agree that might be too many catagories. Not all glitch + console catagories are possible. Debug only works on WiiU (and that's why it was hated in the first place.)

@@TyroRNG Ok yeah, i exaggerated a slight bit cuz i forgot to exclude those three categories

@@TyroRNG As someone who originally heard about speedrunning when everyone was talking about the iQue and later became a veteran in RPG speedrunning communities, not segregating by console has always and will always make no sense.

I remember hearing "TomatoAnus" said out loud multiple times at early GDQs. Ah, the good old days.

My name Mistah Cheeze!

I hate it lol

​@@thelivingend127then don't watch the video

I feel kinda jealous I didn't come up with the name "popesquidward" first, it's so damn good

As a casual player it's really impressive. I didn't know there was a debug menu. It reminds me of those classic games where the debug menu was often hidden in a level select code and left in by the devs for players to just have fun with. No Action Replay/Gameshark required.

Its more poetic than ironic

Apt

You... Do know what ironic means? Cuz this is anything but ironic, I'd say it's very fitting

@@EddieB-ready in general whenever somebody says something is "ironic" its not used correctly at all.

A finger of the monkey's paw curls.

@@carolbells2593Skull Kid and the plot of Majora’s Mask.

" Your Scientists Were So Preoccupied With Whether Or Not They Could, They Didn’t Stop To Think If They Should"

@@OnionChoppingNinja Scientific progress is largely inevitable. Someone would eventually.

@@phantom-ri2tg woosh....

Seriously. Even if it wasn't only possible on the worst version, this just sounds like the ACE Credits Warp in OoT in terms of how 'fun' it would be, both to run and to watch.

It boggles the mind how long it took for them to come to this conclusion. Seems like a no-brainer

@@Pabmyster You're vastly overestimating the capacity of most speedrunners.

@@devonm042690 yeah once the novelty wears off OoT SRM any% runs are boring af. at least the previous route had you fight things instead of warping directly to the credits

the pain%

With the same time and effort you can dig a tunnel from your bedroom to a bank vault.

Still better than the Saints row 2 pc port. Using keyboard to drive a car in that game is the most horrible thing ever because how overly sensitive the controls are.

I wonder what the vote would have been if women with penises were excluded.

Shadow Wizard Rupee Gang. We love travelling through time.

They made a decision that was for the good of everyone and then faced the consequences.

@@StephenBuergler The fact that I could theoretically beat the game faster than anyone using no outside exploits but have it "not count" because some nobodies in a discord said it doesn't is insanity.

@@JJAB91 The true insanity is someone who knows nothing about speedrunning and was never going to run this game thinking they deserved to be consulted about its rules.

Yes, and if anyone dethrones Ennopp, the true speedrunning king will rise in 1/2 a nano second

​@@teh_supar_hackr this sounds like every time Kaiba tries to one up the Pharaoh in the Yu-Gi-Oh anime. My popcorn machine 🅱️roke, anyone got any? I wanna watch this go down

he currently does not have a single record

@@Ontos1717W raggen

​@@thomasmurrell9832 I've got a popcorn machine and several bags of movie theater extra buttery microwave popcorn which one do you want?

A true gem, that one

It was, there was a wii u category. People just hated that it was faster than the original hardware and banned the debug menu out of spite.

They did ban the debug menu, if you watched the video. It didn't go over well. Lol

@aDudeNamedMike They waited too long to ban it. It wasn't one run or two runs to remove, it was several. That level of mess never goes over well.

​@@10superpower the problem is it's a relatively huge community of decentralised unrelated people across the globe. So no one person or even one team of people running a speedrunning website can unilaterally decide something for the entire community. It has to be agreed upon by, essentially, a super majority. Not even just a regular majority. Otherwise the complaining and whining will be intolerable. It might seem like common sense to do this, but groups of humans don't have common sense, only individuals do

Or just require runs to be on original hardware. If a speedrun doesn't work on a real N64, you're not speedrunning MM anymore, you're exploiting glitches in an emulator.

I disagree. The purpose of a speed run is to beat the game as fast as possible, not as "fast as fun". Instead of making a separate category for debug runs, they should have made a separate category for non-debug runs. Like "debugless %". Nothing about the glitch violates the rules of an any percent run.

Either that or ACE gets involved. It's why I HATED that Triforce% run of OoT.

​@@thomasmurrell9832 I find Triforce% to be a curiously polarizing category. Watching it is absolute ass, not necessarily because of TASBot's fault but simply because 500+ frame perfect inputs without any actual game progress are not entertaining. Yet I do enjoy seeing Triforce% as a testament to human ingenuity in regards to what ACE is capable of, between unlocking hidden content to being able to live patch external content into a running game.

@@PlutoDarknight I agree that ACE is a SUPER fascinating tool, but once it gets involved in actual speed runs, I just think that's just dumb. SOME of the stuff they did with it in Triforce% was actually pretty cool (the Arwing fight and that lost content fountain were both pretty dope), but then again, I think it was the misleading nature of the first batch of videos that covered it leaving a sour taste in my mouth. Looking at you, Swanky.

Phil's*

​@@JorgetePanete technically it would be phils' in this situation, since it isn't an action but rather the abstract subject so ya... You corrected someone and was still wrong 😂

@@darkerdaemon7794 1: his name is Phil 2: the wife of Phil -> Phil's 3: stop taking drugs

@@JorgetePanete how about you actually look up the meaning of ' and try telling me that again? Lmfao, you need to lay off the drugs.

@@JorgetePanete just to be crystal clear, because I know you are going to feign ignorance and not actually look it up but apostrophes denote possession when used in that fashion. Meaning Phil ' is / has = Phil's. It can also mean contractions by manner of omissions when used like isn't hasn't etc but! Since using it in proper English translates to Phil is wife / Phil has wife, here doesn't make sense nor is it proper English; so the actual way to use the apostrophe here is Phils', as it literally isn't a contraction nor is it an action denoting possession. Though you could argue being his wife makes her his possession I'd say that's both redundant and missing the entire point of the sentence since her being his wife isn't even the subject. It also isn't the medieval era. So yeah, I'm correcting you in a comment where you incorrectly tried to correct someone else. Which you know is annoying and cringe because you clearly took offense and resulted to personal attacks when I did the same to you, except the irony is you started it.

it's just a game, not that deep go get a girlfriend or something

​@@HappyYummmy It's just a youtube comment, not that deep; go get a boyfriend or something

@@HappyYummmy Says the guy that's probably never had a woman talk to him in his entire life. Leave you're moms' basement and touch some grass before shit talking someone that's probably double your age. Why are you even in this comment section if you don't understand how important of a hobby watching/doing speedruns is for some people. Then again, my comment wasn't all that deep. So maybe stop taking everything so serious and actually enjoy your life instead of trying to shit talk people you don't know

The purpose of these runs is to end the run. Gtfo with this private vote to disable a valid speedrunning method.

@@420......... Its still allowed in Unrestricted; its just not allowed in No Major Glitches Also, why hasnt the community pushed to unban it then?

Ok, lets for sake of argument they do create a new category for the debug menu runs. They label it "meme%". And the debug menu is banned in every other category. Is that acceptable? Because if your answer isn't "yes", then your argument doesn't really carry weight. The entire point was to get rid of a thing that was killing the community SOLELY because it was being taken seriously as a representative of the community. People see it, associate it with the community, and then AVOID THE COMMUNITY as a result. That's a bad thing. Separating the community from that poisonous association was the entire point. De-legitimizing the concept of using the debug menu was the point.

Just so people @@dontmisunderstand6041 you, let me simplify all that: "Ok lets say hypothetically that your opinion is to not put debug in its own category, then you have no argument sir. Because putting it in its own category is the point. Otherwise everyone would avoid."

The only people who were scum in that situation were the ones defending something that should have been banned from the very beginning.

@@dontmisunderstand6041 ​ @DlcEnergy I could swear that I replied to this already, but with the next reply below, I decided to post again as it seems to not have been saved. Please accept my apology if it somehow is still posted without me noticing it. There is two parts for my reply here. First is the actions of the moderators, the 'secret' vote that banned Debug Menu, and the reason is why I already stated: The community needs to be able to know the rules prior to attempting the speedruns. It isn't right for the moderators to have a secret rule that a speedrunner might "violate" while creating a new WR. Second, there is a very clear issue with line-veto on some parts of a game simply to allow a category to be named something that it is not. "Any%" along with "Glitchless%", "100%" and a few other such terms are easily and widely understood by people visiting any community with regard to the speedruns under those labels. In this situation, "Any%" still will be using the Debug Menu. And the simple reason is - it is the fastest. That is the purpose of "Any%". If they want to restrict something from the speedrun, it needs to be explained, and partially within the name of the category. "Any% No Debug" is a fine enough name for this, and they can so-called "retire" the "Any%" Category as being something uninteresting (aka just have no one running it) or if there are still participants, well speedrunners who don't want Debug can just... not use Debug. It isn't that difficult. "People avoiding the community" isn't an acceptable answer, there are already hundreds of different speedruns that take a lot of explanation or defining that a fresh face wouldn't instantly know. For example, the Pokemon Yellow Any% isn't ran the same way a TAS is, and that is because it is less than a second. It takes a corruption of data on loading a game, where the Trainer ID is a specific value. That isn't fun or interesting. But it IS still called "Any%". And then you have the "Any%" that shows up on Speedrun's website, and it shows real people who are able to complete the game in a little over a minute, but that is still with Save Corruption - which is why those who seek to avoid that category go into the "Any% No Save Corruption" category.

@@Kidneyjoe42 There is absolutely no reason why Debug should be "banned from the very beginning". And the mere concept of creating new categories is specifically because speedrunners already do avoid some categories and craft new restrictions to create a more "fun" or "appealing" run. Saying that people are scum simply because they allowed a different type of run, than what they enjoyed running, to exist is beyond reasonable expectation.

Maybe speedrunners really did hate the wiiU virtual console that much, they'd rather conspire to take it out of the picture than run the risk of making other categories feel inferior.

@@bungeetoonsWii U emulator is really bad with various graphical bugs and full of input lag.

I mean to be fair, what's the fun in having a competition when you're the only one who knows a technique that heavily increases your chances of winning?

@@nokimokiiOther people will pour over your footage and figure out what you're doing anyway so it's a temporary advantage that leads to most people thinking you're really ignoring the community aspect of it, given any game a large enough pool is using a communal pool of knowledge built over time for the sake and making the game beaten as fast as possible

I mean if your only going to allow high ranking officials to privately vote over what you can and can’t do it’s the textbook definition of a shadow government

autistic*

To be fair, "a private vote among select community members selected by the mods" is pretty retarded.

Yeah, something like that decision is something that should be in the mod's realm. They saw the effects, they saw how it damaged the community, and with groups like 4chan who would totally bomb it to ensure the broken stuff stays just to make everybody's lives miserable, a private vote made much more sense It's a power that should be used _incredibly sparingly,_ but it's something that makes sense

@@Icalasari speed runners are a lot nicer than those who are on 4-Chan and such though I get your point it is incredibly unlikely any attacks would’ve happened

Oh man feel sorry for you 😆 what a horrible night to have a buggy banker

at least you can take solace in the fact that you are stealing the banker when you withdraw money in a new loop.

Glad you enjoyed it a lot! I bet those were fun memories to revisit lol

I like watching your randomizer videos. Wouldn't mind watching you speed run majora's mask in the future

Hell yeah

Back in the day, you used a boulder dupe to create an insane amount of lag which let you moon kick from DK Isle to the top of the K Rool statue for the endgame. God I love that broken-ass game

@@smokyprogg ahaha that's awesome! Lag creates some of the best glitches in DK64. The running community never mentioned that when I was asking about that glitch!

For now

you could do nothing and dk 64 would crash. hell it'd crash before you even turned on the console

@@depotheose7890for reals. So many things in speedruns were a trick forgotten by people but it was actually a key to ACE.

crit wiggle

o7

Lmao accurate

"No major glitches" largely describes what I'd like to see in every speedrun. It doesn't have to be as-intended, but at least play the game.

These are too rare for me to dismiss any% completely, considering that in like 80% of all other speedruns it's just cooler

glitchless vs glitched speedruns should always have both categories.

At least they actually make good games. Unlike literally everything on Steam, other than ancient AAA games and garbage indie shovelware people rate Overwhelming Positive like brainless bots

Can't forget Majora only had one year of development, so having spaghetti code is unsurprising

Generally accepted coding practices weren't as universal as they are now. Proprietary software and no internet means programmers did what they thought was best and only consulted with the people they met regularly. Most games to this day take the "good enough" approach of making sure something works as intended then moving on.

The real insider secret is all code is spaghetti code, some just works for some reason

​@@fabriciolamana4106 the N64 was also the first console where they didn't write in assembly code so they probably kept a lot of habits.

Yeah they still look down (or up at the sky) for runs to save lag

"bUT DEBUG SHOULD BE THE REAL MAIN RUN HOW DARE YOU CALL IT A SUBCATEGORY" (jk jk but I agree, honestly. not sure why it needed a full ban instead of just splitting into a new category. would probably die in a few weeks anyway when people realized it (imo) looked and played boring as hell)

@@3possumsinatrenchcoat In m opinion, everything involving glitches is automatically a subcategory.

@@HaphazardDisastard What counts as a glitch? Are ALL unintended mechanics glitches, like Ocarina of Time's power crouch stab? Are sequence breaks glitches? What about glitches that just happen randomly without you making them happen? Does that invalidate the run? I agree that "No Major Glitches" should be the default, but NO glitches is a big ask. Some games bug out if you look at them wrong, like DK64. I think you're oversimplifying a bit oo much.

​@@dontmisunderstand6041 If you have to go out of your way to get a glitched behavior, that's a glitch. The power crouch stab is a glitch. Sequence breaks are glitches. The BotW shield jump is a glitch. None of these were intended behavior. Accidental glitches are bound to happen; they're fine. For some games like the first gen Pokémon games, the passive glitches (like the gen 1 miss and badge boosting other stats) cannot easily be avoided, so they are fine. (In other words, if you need to go out of your way to avoid a glitch, it's fine.) Yes, just saying glitches is oversimplified, but it's really not hard to determine what should be okay in a no-glitch run if you just stick to a few rules.

@@HaphazardDisastard You contradict yourself a bit. You can go an entire playthrough without knowing about power crouch stab and using it to your advantage dozens of times on accident. It's one of the best examples of an extremely powerful glitch that can be invoked accidentally without even knowing it exists. There's also the pretty major issue of, what do you do when your no-glitch world record only actually has that record because an un-intended glitch occurs that saves them enough time to get that record? Your category is now fundamentally broken because the world record literally cannot be done legitimately by the ruleset for the category. That's a problem with the ruleset itself that can't just be ignored.

why didn't the ban get immediately overturned when the mods were all replaced then? seems if people actually wanted the thing to be valid they would've changed it the moment they got in charge. imo I'd prefer just splitting the run category versus a complete ban as a compromise, but so it goes ┐⁠(⁠´⁠ー⁠｀⁠)⁠┌

If people wanted to speedrun with the debug menu, they'd be doing it anyway. There is no authoritative force dictating which speedruns are allowed to exist.

​@@dontmisunderstand6041to an extent there is. You can do it, but it'll be a personal thing at best. If you upload it to a board, it's gotta follow guidelines and rules

They can, but in this case, it is as good as pretty much letting it die, and any% requires doing whatever is necessary to get the best speedrun, and that unfortunately involves playing on the Japanese WiiU Virtual Console.

@@iantaakalla8180 So? A category that nobody runs but you still _can_ if you want to is, in my opinion, better than a category that some arbitrary governing body says you can't run because they don't like it. Splitting the categories means that those who don't want to use the glitch don't have to, and those that do can.

deadass cause like this is an a-hole move

@@blueyandicy If an edge is possible its worth going for or at least just make separate categories for it. I know Goldeneye 007 runners are forming a subsect using the new ports to get better times (even if some groups are against it)

And then some gods argue over every event in the universe and have discussions for 100,000,000 years about a specific interaction between two atoms in a hamster's testical.

The burning stick 420% glitch with the bottle ocarina is cool too. Stuff like that.

Agreed! For example, my siblings and I were always going for that Mario Kart 64 Rainbow Road skip off the first big hill and it wasn't terribly hard and it was fun. Maybe that's a bit of a baby league example, but it's often fun to participate and dip one's toes in.

If you want a SUPER easy glitched run to learn, you can easily learn to do A Link to the Past Any% in about 3 minutes. If you have gamer friends it's a neat one to show off. :)

Yep, reminds me of the Mew glitch for Pokemon Red/Blue. I'm still bemused by the fact that someone figured out something so convoluted. But, I guess such things are inevitable when you not only have thousands of people playing and replaying a particular game, but also hundreds of people dedicated to finding such glitches in that game.

I can summarize it for you - people's obsession with having moderators in every aspect of life and wanting someone to censor them and control what they can or can not say, do, feel, or think has made every aspect of every hobby and activity considerably worse.

@@Milktube In this case, it actually improved the hobby/activity...no way in hell you would tell me that watching people going through a bunch of debugging menus via glitch that is console specific with high chance of bricking the game and speedrun is fun or enjoyable to watch or play with.

@@lunadead any% isn't about how fun it is though, it's about how fast you can do it using any method, even if that method isn't fun. Instead they should've made a noDebugMenu% category which can still retain a lot of the fun without butchering any%

Wasn't that Dragon Quest 1?

could be too ^^°

First World countries seems to be very allergic to emulators for some reason. It's funny, because here in third world countries, it's pretty much not a concern for us. The contrast is huge

The best part is that *technically* they still ARE using emulators, just official ones that Nintendo released more than a decade ago. Very weird double standards they have.

​@@JI0MB @artemis1993 @_boux i'm fairly sure it's because people using emulators on their personal pc's would introduce a lot of variety to how fast the games run, simply due to the differences in pc specs, and in games where the competition is so fierce mere seconds can make or break a WR run, that starts to matter a lot. not to mention general cheating is easier to do on a pc emulator than on a console copy. and while having to buy a specific console to play a specific version is not great, needing to have a pc with good specs would mean that the more money you can spend the faster of a time you can get, so if you happen to not have the money for a high end pc you'd be shit out of luck. of course with an N64 game it's not nearly as much of an issue due to not being nearly as resource intensive, but the difference still exists, and that difference is the reason why separate categories exist for the same game on different consoles, so it's probably easier to just ban emulators than to try regulating something so unwieldy. and with official emulators that only run on consoles which were all built (mostly) the same it's not an issue. TLDR: it introduces too many variables that depend fully on the pc setup of each individual player. i'm not an expert on speedruns or anything but this is my understanding on the situation, feel free to tell me if i got something wrong.

​@@kaisumisuNot at all. You do realize people run P.C games...right? There's this one weird trick they do to circumvent everything you mention: cap the frame rate. Anything related to performance stems from framerate. I'm...too high to finish this explanation. If you want an example check out the GTA V speedrun for the simon car glitch.

@@blueyandicy i guess that would circumvent it yeah 👍 i do know people run pc games, but i did kind of assume that there would be more that goes into it than just framerate alone