The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part Two - Kungfu Explained #07 

Thank you! You did phenomenal work yourself!

Thanks!

@@MuShinMartialCulture gotta admit I’m a little jealous. I have always wanted to do this kind of work and research.

@@robertalterman6791 Never too late to start!

@@MuShinMartialCulture I need to do some writing. My teacher and the family always tell a lot of stories about Want zi Ping and other contemporaries of his…. They also have a lot of pretty famous teachers in common.

You were welcome!

Yes, have you read the book A killing Art? In depth tkd history

@@MuShinMartialCulture No. I will definitely look it up. Thanks for the reply.

Thank you!

The change to 摔 came later, and definitely is connected to the original character name used by Ma Liang 率. The classical meaning though was referring to rate and frequency, so connected to the idea of speed. This also makes sense taking Ma Liang's background and learning from Ping Jingyi, who had the idea of speed at the heart of his wrestling method. That's why I went with that pronunciation (I also have my own theories as to the intention behind the character Jiao, but that's a topic for another time) It's super interesting that practically everything to do with today's shuai Jiao, including the characters used for it's modern name, are derived in some form or another to ma liang, yet he is barely known and due to his legacy as a traitor, much of his info is deleted. It's a pity we don't have any video or audio recordings of him talking about it from those days and we could hear exactly clearly which pronunciation he intended.

@@MuShinMartialCulture hey thanks Byron, this is quite interesting. Yea I agree it's a shame we don't know exactly how he pronounced it but man it always amazes me how deeply the fall of Qing and nationalist rhetoric of the early 1900s has influenced today's impressions of everything to do with 'Han civilization', let alone martial arts.... 😦🤔

Well, kudos to the people who managed to keep the arts going in spite of the craziness of those times, and the ones after. We owe them all a debt for that

@@MuShinMartialCulture Absolutely, thanks again for putting up this video. It is quite amazing what has survived intact and those who have strived to not only preserve but revitalize... 🙏 Chat later, thanks for replying to my question.

Again. after the collapse of the Shan Pu Ying we see things emerging and crystalizing, including Chang's stuff, which was covered and was from Ping and his hybridizing of things. We are talking about the roots of todays Shuai Jiao, not martial arts in general though. The formalization of the so called three schools of Baoding, Beijing and Tianjin all occur at the end of the Qing and the collapse of the Shan Pu Ying into the republican era. This should clarify much. What was added and changed etc from then until now is another story. Even today we have Shuai Jiao athletes that have incorporated Judo methods and training concepts etc. This is natural

@@MuShinMartialCulture Chang's teacher and Ping were very much linked to Shan Pu Ying, though exactly how is not 100% clear. Chang's martial art is also very much linked to Central Guoshu Academy and has a TON of Judo in it... shock, I know! :) I am just saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... they is a tradition of wrestling of some sort in China and it probably has some (though small) influence....

@@DavidRoss2780A Well, there is wrestling all over the world, that doesn't mean they are directly connected. Further, you would do well to research the banner system, how it worked and it's stipulations to better understand this and realize what may or may not be possible. There is no coincidence that the methods came to the folk only after the collapse of the Shan pu ying and the banner system.

​@@MuShinMartialCulture This may come as a shock, but when I did my masters degree in Chinese history we did study the banner system :) And as I have said, there was "wrestling" of some sort outside of Shan Pu Ying while Shan Pu Ying was still active. 99.5% of your video I 100% agree with, it is hugely Mongolian-Manchurian influence that was covered up due to politics. But I think to imply there is zero Chinese (Han) in the mix is probably not correct, that's all

@@DavidRoss2780A I think I said this a few times already, but from the end of the Qing into the republican period and until today, yes there was of course influence and development from outside. However, that is not what is implied in the rebranding, the newly created history, and the series is based on showing these aspects clearly and showing how this was distorted and why.

Hi. Firstly, the reality of the anti-manchu sentiment at the end of the Qing and into the early republic is so overwhelmingly well documented that this is not even a point that needs debating. The historical records and studies on them are immense, and I presented some of them. You should look into it further. Even into other arts like Taiji at that time there were Manchu's who changed their names and hid their Manchu ethnicity precisely because of the bias. This is clear. Even swords that were connected to Japanese origins had their history re-written during this period. This is very clear. Nationalism was at its peak really. They werent called the nationalist party for nothing. Regarding the Tianjin shuai jiao history. Firstly, that story and Ming connection was invented in the republican era. This is clear too. There is nothing that survived from the Ming dynasty in the sense as you stated, and this was created in order to link it to yet again a Han led dynasty, you may see a pattern here. I cover most of this with evidence in the next episode but here are some points. Tianjin’s shuai jiao is deeply connected to Beijing’s and it too disseminates from the Shan Pu Ying after it was disbanded. Tianjin Shuai Jiao can be traced to Cui Xiufeng who was a Manchu bannerman and in the Shan Pu Ying and he disseminated the art there. His students include Bu Enfu, and others including people who taught the four Zhang’s. This is clear. What happened after this dissemination such as mixing with other arts and methods with locks and submission etc. is much like what happened in Baoding under Ping. This is recent and not connected to the origin of the jacket wrestling, which is traced to the Shan Pu Ying and its Manchu-Mongol origins. The attire is also a dead giveaway as to its origins, again, this is covered in the next episode. So Tianjin Shuai Jiao has its origins in the Shan Pu Ying and Manchu wrestling. This is clear. The Shanxi arts again are not connected to today’s Shuai Jiao prior to the dissolving of the Shan Pu Ying, and even that is a weak link too simply because the genealogy of basically all of today’s Chinese Shuai Jiao can be traced to the Shan Pu Ying, and none of those people did shanxi wrestling nor were they from there. We are talking about Zhong Guo Shi Shuai Jiao as it is presented today. Again, your point 3 is completely moot and the evidence is there irrespective of your personal opinion. I would also suggest that you don’t use words like “absurd” if you don’t have evidence to counter evidence presented. This then simply becomes an opinion, and everyone has an opinion.

@@MuShinMartialCulture Yes, but the alienation and massacred of the manchu was only during and after the xin hai revolution for a very short period of time. " After the establishment of the Republic of China, due to the accumulation of ethnic feud, in the course of the uprising revolutionaries, Xi'an , Hangzhou , Jiangning and Wuchang and other places have taken place against the Eight Banners military and civilian massacres events . However, some places have adopted peaceful solutions. In Sichuan, Chengdu General Yukun and some Manchu officials had a harmonious relationship with the local Han gentry, and many Manchu officials even sympathized with the revolution. Under the coordination of the efforts of the Manchus and the Hans, the Chengdu Garrison Army and the Sichuan Dahan Military Government reached an agreement on peaceful conversion. The Manchus were "given the protection" and "have never killed anyone in vain".(優予保護，始終未妄殺一人 ) Guangzhou and Fuzhou are also generally settled peacefully . In the northeastern region where the Manchu and Han ethnic exchanges are harmonious, the revolutionary party Zhang Rong and Bao Kun, who were born in the banner , also proposed "with the purpose of building a Manchu-Han united republic" (以建設滿漢聯合共和政體為目的) and advocated uniting with the Manchus . Uprising in Wu chang revolution , the revolutionary parties in the northeastern region where the Manchus were concentrated, "secretly rallied separately, conspired an uprising together, and promoted the independence of the three provinces." Manchu revolutionary aspirants rose up to respond and plunged into the revolution。" by zhao zang （趙展）in his book 《辛亥革命时期满族革命志士血染山河》。 which proof that not only the han, even the manchu was part of the revolution. In the late Qing Dynasty, under the threated of the foreign super powers , Chinese scholars felt a sense of crisis of "subjugation of the country and species. "(亡國滅種） The revolutionist blamed China’s national crisis on the oppression and discrimination policy from the Qing Court, this cognition developed into Han nationalism at the beginning of the 20th century , forming a "revolutionary party"(革命派） that advocated "removing the Tartars and restoring China", while the Reformists(維新派） worried this anti-manchu ideology might lead to the separation of the country and the intervention of the foreign powers. After the revolution , the newly formed Republic abandoned the idea of ​​racial revenge and accepted the theoretical basis of the established Chinese nation-state-the concept of "Chinese nation"(zhong hua min zu) (中華民族）and the policy of "five ethnic republic" （五族共和）。 Even the manchu/mongol foreign diplomat and students in Japan had a positived responsed to this matter. Hengjun (恆鈞）, Wu Zesheng( 烏澤聲）founders of the daitong daily(大同報） in Tokyo and Beijing) and other Manchu Mongolian bannermmen who stayed in Japan advocated the idea and responded "the Manchu and Han people are equal. Unite the Manchu, Han, Mongolian, Hui , Tibetan under one nation." (滿漢人民平等，統合滿、漢、蒙、回、藏為一大國民). From : 吳啟訥（wu qi na) 《少數族群在民國肇建前後的抉擇 - 認識多族群統一國家的民族與族群現像》 林家有（Lin jia yio) ,廣東文獻季刊《孫中山先生與中華民族復興》 Yongnian Zheng. Discovering Chinese Nationalism in China: Modernization, Identity, and International Relations. Cambridge University Press. 28 April 1999 My point is, it was the result of the "Chinese nationalism" in resulting of renamed the shiao jiao and claiming to be linked back to ancient jiao di /jiao li, and yet, nobody denied the fact that shiao jiao have influenced or from the manchu

@@MuShinMartialCulture could you provide the detail of cui xiu feng and bu en fu, can't find it online. Couldn't find much from the "Four Zhong" early life , only zhong hong yu stated that his shiao jiao was taught by Wong kun lun at the age of 17. I understand what you are saying, yet, we can find a strong link to the pre qing period, however, there's also no prove that shiao jiao did not existed in tian jin until the eight banners disbanded. 1. Like you said, tian jin wrestling existed after the Republic, and adopted other techniques. 2. Tian jin wreslting were past on by tian jin gurads ( wrestling was one of the core training programm), and than adopted techniques from shan pu yin. Shan xi jiao linked to shan pu yin I'm not sure, but, nao yang competition existed long before has been proven historically. As far as I know, the modern day shan xi jiao pretty much has no lineage in mainland anymore, only master gou shen(郭慎）still practicing and teaching in taiwan.

​@@lps8966 Unfortunatley you didn't prove anything above apart from the fact that in some cases a compromise was made and violent retaliation didnt occur. In other words, revenge wasn't acted upon in some cases. However, this doesnt change the anti-manchu sentiment and feelings that existed anyway, but rather that this wasn;t violently acted upon. Thats all. No one denied that. The change of history and name of Shuai jiao is in fact due to rebranding precisely because of the bias that existed. This was shown once again in the video without a shadow of a doubt. Unless you think they rebranded its history for fun. Why do you think in the same period was the link to the Japanese long sword deleted from the history of its transmission in China? I'll give you another example, to this day TODAY, there is anti-japanese sentiment and this feeling even makes its way into cultural activities. I was here during the anti japan protests just some years ago too.... I have had japanese friends attacked simply for being Japanese even today. Now, if you think shortly after the 1911 revolution that the Chinese would have welcomed a distinctly Manchu/Mongol art from becoming a national program, both in the military and in public schools, as well as a national sport, then you may not be fully aware of the reality of the feelings here. Nationalism effected the republican sports movement 100% and I suggest you read research works on this topic specifically to understand this clearly. This is completely undeniable and clear to anyone who has studied republican era sports movement here. Marrow of the nation is a good place to start.

@LPS All of this I have clearly with evidence and it will be shown in the next episode. Simply because you couldn't find it doesn't mean it isn't there. I have both local records some of which have recently been deleted (I kept original copies though)..... as well as Manchu records. There is VERY clear evidence of Shuai Jiao only becoming a thing in these areas after the disbanding of the Shan Pu Ying in fact. Very clear. There was no continuation from the Ming guards, please provide the genealogy if you are so sure there was. And if there was, then why do the modern wrestling people all connect to Cui, who came from Beijing to Tianjin and not to someone else? Why would he then suddenly be the one to teach these methods? Why would they adopt the attire and even the rules, being a direct continuation of the Shan pu ying method, and not something else with a record from before? Why are there remnants of Mongol and Manchu cultural practices even today in Shuai Jiao? You aren't presenting any evidence or rationality now....This is just becoming a silly discussion.. Nao Yang did not continuously carry on until modern time. I think you keep failing to understand this key point. This is exactly what I was referring to in episode one. Simply because an old record says something was done in antiquity to some degree, it doesnt mean its connected to today. If Egypt starts learning modern wrestling today, they cannot now claim that it is ancient Egyptian wrestling that is continuous from ancient times because there are murals in some burial chambers of pharaohs Do you understand what I am saying?

Pure Manchurian wrestling doesn’t exist anymore and the Manchurian just adopted wrestling from Mongol Bokh, which is why even the name is the same and written the same as in Mongolian. All thats left from Buku(Manchuria wrestling) is seen in modern “Chinese” Shuaijiao.

...also no one does Mongol Bokh in the USA 🤦🏾‍♂️

@@bboyshaolin I've seen you before in videos. Charlie Nelson died at 88 years old in 2003. He learned what he called Chinese Mongolian Wrestling from neighbor who was Chinese and owned a laundry shop in New Jersey. I grew up in Middletown, Monmouth County, New Jersey. I learned from him and the gutter fighting community back in the 1990s where they had shuai jiao that was also promoted by Matt Furey. I was mainly Judo and Gracie Jiujitsu at the time, but did cross train and compete in Shuai Jiao tournaments from the 1990s to 2000s.

The post Meiji Japanese influence on many aspects of republican era China is somewhat multi faceted. Something you could look into. Regarding the Han influence in shuai Jiao, Ping Jingyi was Hui, but more importantly, his own combination of his striking art with his shuai jiao, which was from the Shan pu ying Manchus, is a unique case, and not representative of shuai jiao as a whole. Basically all shuai jiao only left the domain of the Manchus and entered into general populace when the Qing collapsed and the Shan pu ying was disbanded and the wrestlers were forced to busk on the streets or set up schools to teach in order to survive. But that is very very recent in general terms, and totally in contrast to the re created history and re branded story of the art. Now, after this, of course there were some great Han wrestlers for sure

@@MuShinMartialCulture I see, well definitely going to watch Part 3.

Modern Japanese Sumo is related to Tang dynasty era wrestling.

What about it is a shame? If it’s Manchu-Mongol then so be it, we’re a united country now.

Also 26:38, Ping Jing Yi’s Bao Ding Fast Wrestling incorporated Mongol-Manchu wrestling and Shaolin martial arts, and it is ancestor to Ma Liang’s martial system, so, there is like a touch of Han roots.

@@peterwang5660 good point

@@peterwang5660 true good point

Do you mean in the Republican era or when?

@@MuShinMartialCulture during the Republican era when they first created those military academy you mention

Some of the teachers are mentioned there in the series@@MbisonBalrog

@@MuShinMartialCulture but im asking what style they belong too if there is no real history for shuai Jiao since all fabricated. What was the wrestling style before Shuai Jiao was invented ?

@@MbisonBalrog in the republican era, all the prominent practitioners learnt from the Shan pu ying people that taught after the collapse of the Qing dynasty. It's all in the video

Could well be, however as I mentioned in another comment, I have strong reason to believe Ma was using the concept closely related to the meaning of speed and rate in line with his learned style of Ping's fast wrestling. But yes, could be that he pronounced it as Shuai.

@@MuShinMartialCulture Anyway, that is just a detail. Congratulations for this very well-documented study.

@@MaBMT78 Thank you very much!

@@MuShinMartialCulture according to several sources, in Ma's works 率角 was pronounced Shuai Jiao...

@@DavidRoss2780A Yes, we discussed this above already

It's a shirt from the Adidas Wu Ji line from years ago. The line was marketed by jet LI

@@MuShinMartialCulture ok. It just looked kinda weird...with all those "russian adidas memes" around

Glad you enjoyed it!

u represent the part of martial arts that is cringe af, absolutist that believe styles are everything, if anything both of u and the guys insulting u will get decked by the average D1 wrestler.