The Infamous Knife vs. Bat Debate 

After watching I changed my opinion, i think knife wins

Same, with exact same everything, obviously the only factor would be the weapon itself And yeah guess what, larger range is better

​@Baddaby unexperienced means you don't know how to keep distance to be able to benefit from range. If you ever saw people learning how to fight they always end up close with bad chaotic hits. People underestimate how absurdly dangerous a knife is. To be able to defend yourself from any knife user with any weapon without a blade you need experience and a quick ko hit or a quick hit to the arm holding the knife. If you had an umbrella and someone assaulted you with a knife you would never say you have an advantage and would shit your pants and yet you still have a weapon with superior range. Also let's not forget most bats aren't even designed for combat while any knife with a decently sharp blade is extremely deadly.

People severely underestimate how lethal knives are

​@@edwardsuou knifes arent intuitive weapons, baseball bats are. I dont think you understand how much the average person can hurt you with one swing of the baseball bat. The average person can break your bones swinging at like 50-75% power. Also baseball bats are clubs, which are fairly common combat weapons both current day and historically.

That's funny because Joseph Anderson is the smartest dumb guy I know

The Gavin Free of twitch

he is NOT smart

He doesn't tie his shoelaces because it's too much effort and will just shove his feet inside his shoes also he refuses to eat sushi

@@PrismTheKid lol what? why doesnt he eat sushi? XD

Same Fuck a hypothetical, I just wanna fuck myself

😳😳

if it were me we’d be doing a bit more than just making out 😏

No way, the bat user would be super minus on block or whiff, letting the knife user dash in freely to punish

As if the bat players would even zone, all they do is unga with big damage and rage

​@@poiriblock with what? if you use the knife to block, it's flying out of your hands or getting stuck in the bat (if wooden)

Legitimately the correct answer though

@@godlyvex5543 unless the bat user is aiming at your knife wielding arm/your ribs on that side of the body you can use your other arm to block the brunt of the attack. Your arm will break and the bat will keep travelling, but at a much lower speed and not dealing significant damage after the arm, certainly not enough to knock someone out.

A bat doesn't have that much range, it's not a spear. Closing in on on the bat user shouldn't be too difficult.

@@dreambufferit doesn’t have much range but it’s got way more than a knife. A knife only extends a little past your hand while a bat can be as long as your whole arm at its peak, effectively doubling your range.

wouldnt it be possible for a knife user to tackle the other user and hug him?

@@dreambuffer It doesn't have to be a spear, range is relative. A thirty-four inch club simply has an enormous reach advantage over a six inch blade. It's going to be much harder for the knife-wielder to land a hit, most importantly because closing in would be extremely dangerous. The knife-wielder has to risk his life just for a _chance_ to attack. Look, no normal person is going to simply decide to rush a guy menacing them with a bat, even if they have a knife. That's just not a natural reaction. Unless they're some sort of suicidally reckless berserker, your average person will instinctively prioritize avoiding injury over inflicting it. Put another way, the most natural reason to hurt someone else is to prevent them from hurting you. So, in this case the human self-preservation instinct works in favor of the bat-wielder while working against the knife-wielder: The former is incentivized to strike at his opponent since it keeps him safe, while the latter will be discouraged to attack because it puts him at risk. Sure, a highly skilled and supremely confident knife-fighter might be able to close into grappling range, but since we're assuming equal skill that means the bat-fighter would also be very good at managing the distance between them, so the knife guy still has the same problem.

@@hypnogri5457 Oh yeah. That makes way more sense than, “the knife user can just rush the bat user and try to dodge the bat”.

Joe really has no clue about a lot of things he talks about, but he's entertaining enough that it doesn't really matter

I truly believe he pretends to have bad and wrong opinions to annoy chatters. He saves his good opinions for his videos.

Bruh he's canadian, they think guns are a conspiracy to create more demand for FPS games or some shit, cut him some slack. I remember him talking (during the life is strange streams) about how it's pretty realistic for random militia white trash americans to roam at the mexican border and shoot illegals on sight, but completely unrealistic for the same white trash to assume every brown person in their store is a thief and perform a civil arrest on them and call their sheriff.

technically, you can 21-foot rule a gunman with a knife, but 1. that works with all melee weapons 2. that only works if they haven't drawn the gun yet and you've already drawn your weapon.

If the gun is unloaded with the ammo in another room, as required by Canadian law, then of course it’s useless compared to the knife

Why is that funny? If you watch any knife attack video from LiveLeak or anyone trying to demonstrate this it's obvious that you can't dodger a knife.

It’s way easier to dodge a bat because your opponent has to wind up

@@weirdo3116isn't dodging a knife just dodging a fist, i'll admit ive never been in a knife fight but ive dodged punches and on live leak i feel like most people dont realise its a fight or one or both parties are intoxicated

@@skoomatrolldodge a fist when they’re hugging you? Knife guy isn’t going to stay at optimal punching range because they want to go in and just start stabbing your mid section at speed. So it’s more “which is easier, dodging bat, or dodging someone giving you a bear hug?” Most people can probably bait the bat swing, but not someone continuously closing in range to give them a hug, while also trying to be able to fight back

@@BBG07endless you are not going to dodge a bat buddy

I know for certain my clone would piss themself

Bro you can’t dodge a knife if you get in grabbing range. Bat is mid range weapon, they have one chance to cripple the knife user before they get in and stab you 30 times.

@@Human-dr7kr both have equal skill, and he literally said that the bat guy will “the knife guy can definitely dodge some swings” and two minutes later he said “why is everyone saying you can dodge the knife; this isn’t dark souls” it’s contradictory. No one with the bat is swinging full force like their hitting a ball, Same goes for knife user: fully committing to a jab or a big slice is not smart. Little pokes here and there will be bread and butter but the bat user will easily step away from those. The only way a knife user is getting in close enough to stab at point blank range the way you’re talking is most likely (emphasis on likely, not saying every time) is by tanking a swing. And the problem is that, you’re saying that a bat user can’t dodge at this specific range, which is pretty much true, but is not the only range you can be at. For a bat user, you will never ever dodge a hit directed at you waist while your backed into a corner. It’s just not posssible, within reason, but you can’t use an ideal scenario to conclude that you could never dodge a knife attack and or never dodge a bat.

Try sprinting 6 feet forward, then, turn around and try backpedaling 6 feet and tell me which is faster. Unless you're a mutant you're going to be able to sprint forward far faster than you can backpedal. Add to this the fact that swinging a bat while backpedaling also robs it of a lot of its force and makes it easier to miss and you have a recipe for disaster.

@@RecliningWhale try parrying a bat with a knife. Just make sure you're wearing protection first especially for your face since your knife's blade might fracture and send metal shards in your face, and be ready to spend some months in rehab recuperating from your broken hand. Maybe if you get plate armor and lots of padding, or use a toy knife and a toy bat both made of plastic, you'll be ok. (Seriously, I am telling you that if you plan to test this out, you need to protect yourself, because the bat so obviously wins and I wouldn't want you to get injured just for being wrong about melee combat on the internet.)

@@willostrand6555 I mean it’s not an ideal scenario though, it’s just the only good knife gameplane against bat. you’re never doing knife swings or even stabs against a bat guy if your not in grab range and you don’t need the bat guy in a corner. As a knife guy you try to not get hit in the legs. Dodge a swing if you’re lucky, tank a hit or two, if you’re lucky the bat guy swings a little too late and loses a bunch of his power. If you’re not crippled or KO you can keep charging, it’s a fight to the death you can take a lot of pain in that situation. You charge in grab the bat guy, try to dig your shoulder into them and just stab stab stab and they will die way faster than you think. And this is in open space bla bla. In an actually ideal scenario like a hallway the bat guy has nearly no chance.

Both sides of the bat? Like, the handle? Don't tell me you meant it that way

The bat user has one chance to hit the head and if they don't they probably lose. You can't swing a bat as fast as you can stab. So assuming both are equally disorienting and both are equally damaging then the knife has the luckier odds

@@dreambuffer@emilysort While a knife takes less time to connect than a bat, that only matters if you are already within range to connect, which you aren't. Therefore the bat, while taking longer to swing, starts the attack much sooner.

@@huh4894 the attack doesnt "start" sooner you literally need to swing the bat like mf, so if you are out of range with a bat u need to itme that

This debate essentially divides into 'people who have watched fucked up knife fight videos on the internet' and 'people who haven't learned what knives are capable of' 😐

yeah, really proves it, the knife is so insanely effective its able to tie even when you lose

you have a beautiful mind, cherish it

@@drewbabe yeah, this dude's brain is on a complete differente lenghtwave, i respect it

Same, i was wonder what game he was playing where he was fighting bats with a knife

Internet debates in a nutshell tbh

​@@AnonymousNeptune Side-liners commenting on how stupid both sides are is also accurate as well.

This is the kind of intellectualism you can expect from people with this pfp. Great comment, oomf.

Neither does anyone in the comments it looks like.

I can literally taste the iron of the concussion thinking about it.

Hell, I've never been hit by a bat but I still think I have a pretty good idea what getting clobbered with a long piece of hardwood would do to me.

spoken like someone who has never been stabbed before

@@james5971Actually, while trying to research this topic I found a medical article called "Musculoskeletal Trauma: The Baseball Bat." It goes into a lot of detail about what happens when someone hits you really hard with a bat, and at one point it mentions that most of the bat assault victims claimed they would have preferred to have been attacked with a knife or a gun. Turns out that while bats aren't quite as lethal, they're very good terror/torture weapons. Being injured with one hurts a lot, you can actually hear your bone crack, there's a lot of soft-tissue damage, and about 20% of the time you end up with open fractures or other significant displacements that'll require surgery.

How much damage do you people think a bat can do? A flung bat is not going to shatter any bones.

correct. average person might swing the bat improperly, but if they hold it more like a kendo sword or a one-handed club or shortsword, they can't lose. the range and ability to parry are too strong.

Your argument assumes 1 bat hit is game over. Not at all the case

​​@@drewbabe if you are parrying with a bat you cannot logically be attacking with it. A parry either takes 2 hands on both ends of the bat or it takes all of the momentum from your swing.

@@dreambuffer Sure, not every case will end in one bat hit, but against average people most will.

If we're going by the logic of you're not some movie badass then the difference between the two is so small that it actually doesn't matter and the discussion is useless. Because getting stabbed will also be painful enough for the person to collapse or be hindered by shock in a lethal way. Especially if it's in the stomach or back. Which if they lunge at you and hug you is easy for them to do.

They keep coming back to this idea of taking a grievous wound and bleeding to death. Like, yeah in a fight to the death if I take a wound that's going to cause me to die in like, minutes or hours from now, I guess I'll just give up and graciously accept defeat.

Knives are so lethal though, it's not like in a video game where they have it doing very little damage each strike

@@Xanonix5643 no doubt about that, but simpler weapon would be more effective in the hands of a noob. Thats why spears and clubs were more common in medieval time than swords. Reach+simplicity=easy kills.

@@lolbol331 Not quite. Expenditure of resources, use of a skilled craftsman's time, and advantages presented by other weapons are also factors. A weapon like a sword takes a lot of metal, a lot of expertise, and a lot of time to do correctly. It's not a practical weapon as much as it is a symbol and an art piece, for its lack of utility against armored foes. That is, lack of utility over a lighter, smaller weapon which can achieve the same end with significantly less material, like a knife or dagger. Knives and daggers are, and were, very common sidearms because they're light, they're easy to use, they're handy tools, and they're _exceptionally_ dangerous in close quarters. Spears were common because they take, relatively, very little time and material to make a very dangerous, long weapon. It's also important to mind that while spears are powerful for their reach, that reach is valuable on a polearm because a polearm has the utility to force your opponents to stay _at_ that distance. A polearm can be easily maneuvered to poke and cut at an opponent that tries to close the gap. It can also be quickly shifted in one's hands to effectively 'shorten' it, holding it closer to the head to try and attack someone who _is_ closing the gap (difficult but not impossible). A bludgeon like a bat isn't passively dangerous, like a blade: it has to be moving, and _you_ have to be moving, to give it momentum and _make_ it dangerous. Thus, a weapon like a mace, or a hammer, or a bat, isn't effective for keeping a foe at a distance: you need to step, lean, and swing to ward a foe away with lethal force. A knife is ideal in a grapple, where it can be rapidly and easily stabbed multiple times into your opponent. It's thwarted by weapons like swords and polearms which are capable of quickly and effectively responding to attempts to close the gap by making quick cuts or thrusts: either the guy with the knife falls back, or he gets seriously injured before he can get close. A bludgeon doesn't really have a way to keep an opponent at a distance, and so it's left with no way to prevent a guy with a knife from producing its ideal conditions. The basic principles you offer aren't _incorrect:_ there's just a lot more nuance to them that I _hope_ I've cleared up. Reach is great on a weapon that can take advantage of it, but bludgeons _usually_ can't. There are exceptions, but generally they're weapons like a lucerne, which combines a bludgeon with a long point for quick thrusts.

@@Xanonix5643 has to be a big enough knife and has to hit a critical area. A proper dagger would be able to disable someone with a stab to the abdomen, but something only a few inches long, something most people would say is definitely "just a knife," needs to get a stab on the heart or the throat to disable someone. Sure, you can definitely do a lot of damage with a smaller blade if you get lots of stabs in all over their body, and you can make someone bleed out, but all it takes is one solid blow from the bat on your arm and that shit is broken. Even if you're built huge, the sheer momentum afforded by the leverage from the length and mass of a bat will crush bones. So, average knife vs average bat, knife user has to resort to throwing it and hoping to hit one of the two critical areas. Holding onto the knife is foolish assuming both parties have the same level of combat training or lack thereof. Knife user gets one shot where they have the upper hand, and if they whiff it, it's over for them. That's just how melee combat works, range beats almost everything when you're unarmored or lightly armored. That's why the spear and polearm were the standard issue for infantry and cavalry alike, and that's why bayonets, instead of backup swords, were standard issue for ranged infantry as soon as the gun was invented. The sword was usually a backup weapon for if your spear broke, unless you were an archer, at which point a shortsword was the preferred melee weapon since it wouldn't be hard to carry or get in the way of the bow, and was better than nothing if an enemy got close. Of course, that's all talking military applications; in civil life, swords and knives were useful for their smaller size. But I digress. We're talking about an all-out fight here, not the practicality of carrying one or the other around in your day-to-day.

Literally just block with your spare arm. The force will likely break your arm but your bone breaking will also rob the swing of a lot of its force, a broken arm sucks but isn't immediately lethal. This paired with adrenaline would allow you to likely ignore the brunt of the pain which gives you the time to close the remaining 2-3 feet to get in range. Once you're in range with a knife it will be easier for you to stab repeatedly while keeping close than it would for the bat user to backpedal or turn and try to sprint away. Spears are not comparable to bats. Bats are more comparable to a sword with no edge. That lack of an edge heavily limits their ability to immediately disable an opponent as unless you hit their head or immediately break a leg, your target isn't disabled.

Yup, the knife guy gets one shot to throw it and hit the heart or the throat, and if they don't land that crit, it's game over. And any scenario where the knife user is proficient enough to actually land that throw properly is gonna have an equally skilled bat user who can guard both spots with the bat. It'd have to be two amateurs with the knife user just hurling the blade, the bat user not knowing how to guard their vitals, and getting critted by pure chance.

@@drewbabe Throwing the knife would be the worst idea here. Sure, you could gamble for a crit that way, but you'd have better chances trying to close the distance and grapple. The untrained knife user could win if the bat user whiffs their first swing and the knife user ducks or sidesteps instead of backpedaling against the bat, maybe.

and anyone saying bat has never had a knife pulled on them, lmfao! if a someone with a knife "hugs" you, you die. if you've ever played football, you know how hard that is. You can't stop someone from closing distance on you if they sprint at you and tackle.

​@@drewbabeNot at all correct, a bat user only has one shot and it has to be on the head. If they miss they have to recharge the swing and a knife user gets 2-3 stabs they cannot block.

@@dreambufferon the head? getting hit by full swing of a bat anywhere will likely make you drop the knife

Sharp stick > Long stick

You're overestimating the amount of damage a bat will do. It's not a guaranteed bone breaker.

because in most of history it was illegal to carry a blade for the common man... because they are too deadly... Also you say history but did you actually read up on some things? You are thinking of swords not knives, swords are difficult to use and serve no purpose besides killing people. Also they are expensive to make. Spears are cheap, can be used for hunting and fishing. Clubs are literally just thick sticks that may or may not be polished, so they are dirt cheap. A forged blade, even a knife, is expensive. and ofc stone or bone knives were dull...

​@@synka5922A lot of spearmen seem to wear swords as side weapon, so it shouldn't be _that_ difficult and complicated to use. "Even a knife is expensive"? How is knife be expensive compared to spear, which is kinda like, long spear with knife?

@@Hell_O7 Is there a source for "spearmen wore swords as a side weapon"? I do find it difficult to believe, unless it was their own sword they brought from home

Did you consider a knife sometimes doesn't even need more than one stab?

For the knife to get a hit in, they'd have to close the distance. Which, since its your clone, wouldn't be hard since no one is faster backpedaling than they are sprinting forward. Bat swings can be blocked by an arm, which is a small sacrifice to close the distance and once the distance is closed just keep stabbing while traveling toward your clone. Bat clone needs to create distance to use their weapon, which you aren't inclined to let them do.

​@@RecliningWhaleDo you think you could withstand the shock of your arm breaking to the point where you would still be able to wield a knife? Really?

@@gamerdude3465 Yes. Have you ever actually broken a bone? Adrenaline floods your system and helps to dull the pain until you come down from the high. In a life or death situation your fight, flight, or freeze reaction would be flooding your system with adrenaline which would give you the edge needed to close the distance and keep stabbing. This is especially true since you'd likely be able to close the distance before the bat user can even react since average humans have a reaction time of 0.25 seconds. Meanwhile the average human can lunge 61 inches (the distance of an average bat + average adult male arm) in 0.3 seconds. That's 0.05 seconds to react and counter.

@@RecliningWhale look, i ain't saying this in a mean spirited way, but unless both combatants are kissing, then the lunge is longer than 0.3 fucking seconds, and, i dont know if you ever fought, people unconsciously give little clues when they are about to attack, i really doubt someone inexperienced could do a unreactable lunge

Bat is only useful at mid-range as it functions as a lever; So the closer you are to the fulcrum, the less force imparted by said lever. If the knife user gets one stab in, why are you assuming it stops at one? It only takes one arm to wield a knife, leaving you with an entire spare arm to use to block the bat. It would hurt like hell to have it broken by the bat's initial swing, but it wouldn't immediately take you out of the fight. This would allow the knife user to close the remaining distance and start stabbing. Meanwhile, the bat user would need to backpedal to try to keep distance, but due to the way human bodies work, it is faster to sprint forward than it is to backpedal, meaning the knife user would have an easier time keeping close (assuming their other arm is so broken they can't use their hand to grapple) than the bat user would attempting to create space. The only way the bat user wins is if they land a unblocked hit to the head/leg (and break it) or if the knife user repeatedly attempts to slash instead of stab like an actual idiot.

You're completely right. Other things to consider are that the bat's mass and leverage make it impossible to parry with a knife alone, while the bat can parry the knife, and also that you can jab with a bat. The only thing the knife has going for it is that its smaller mass makes it possible to throw quickly and in a pretty straight line or stable arc, so if you were dealing with, like, combat masters here, you could aim for the heart or throat and if you get the hit, you win. But then again, a combat master with a bat would be able to protect those vitals with the bat even assuming a poor stance, let alone one that actually keeps those vitals protected by either the bat or by positioning. Range and leverage are king in melee combat. That's why swords and knives were sidearms for backup, or used for everyday defense. Infantry were issued spears, bows, and slings. The ancient phalanx were composed of lines of infantry protected by huge shields and wielding spears, with bowmen behind them. Even in the era of full plate armor, armor crushing implements made use of leverage and reach to accomplish their goal, which is why the mace was more popular than the hammer and the flail, for all its flaws, still saw use. (Though, a powerful enough bow with a well-fashioned arrowhead would still pierce plate, and a large enough rock thrown by a strong man with a sling would still completely topple anyone in plate armor; those were really only made to answer the spear, the sword already being answered by the spear, lol)

@@RecliningWhale Little correction, trying to hit the leg with a bat is suicide since that hit requires much more range.

@@RecliningWhale lol “block the bat”. You’re assuming if a person blocks a bat swing with their arm, the shock isn’t gonna carry over to the rest of their body. If you’re getting hit that hard in the arm that it’s BREAKING IT, it’s gonna at least knock you off balance, if not over. Not to mention there will probably be more damage than just the arm because it’s a swing. Plus, if you’re charging with a knife, the bat user can see you coming, and time their swing (provided they know what they’re doing). I like the chances of the defensive person being able to see and react to the offensive knife user

@@AnonymousNeptune Adrenaline. You're not going to feel the majority of the pain inflicted by a bat swing even with a broken bone. It isn't knocking you off your feet since this is literally your clone and somehow I doubt you're capable of putting enough force to knock a 100+ lbs person off balance or over with one swing. On top of this you'd need to be able to time your strike perfectly. This is because the average person can go from outside bat range to grappling range in 0.3 seconds, meanwhile average human reaction time is 0.25 seconds... So you only have 0.05 seconds to react before they're on top of you. A knife user isn't going to sprint at you from 20 meters away. They're going to close the distance (since YOU also need to close the distance to do any damage) and once they're just outside your range THEN they lunge. Average range, with a bat, is only 61 inches. An average human can lunge that in 0.3 seconds.

A bat is only an arms length longer than a knife. That isn't very much at all.

@@dreambuffer It is significant when the bat user can simply step back to be many times out of your reach while he can still reach you

@@RatWithFangs Try step back and swing a bat at the same time. You will notice you lose all momentum in your swing and it will be weak and hard to aim. Bats only have power with forward lunge.

@@dreambuffer "ONLY an arm's length" lmao that's quite significant don't you think?

@@dreambuffer "Only an arms length?" What? That's literally the difference between whether or not you are even able to physically touch your opponent. In any form of close combat, that's going to be hugely important.

Throughout history, range has always been a much more deciding factor. The only reason why ancient armies used "short and stabby" was because it wasn't a 1v1, but rather thousands against thousands, where it is impossible to keep distance and therefore having more 'maneuverability' is all that matters. Also, you can't just 'take a hit' from someone swinging a bat full force--that doesn't happen.

@@huh4894 I mean in large scale combat it's much easier to keep at range. You have buddies either side of you that can help fend off anyone brave enough to close the gap. That's why spear formations were so common but spears were never really used as a self defense weapon. That and spears being too cumbersome for day to day. I do wonder, can you name any army that primarily used long *blunt* weapons? Specifically against unarmored opponents? And I think you could take a hit from a bat. Certain hits might immediately incapacitate you but plenty wouldn't. A hit to your non dominant arm for instance would make it harder to grapple but not impossible, and it wouldn't stop you from stabbing. Maybe if you're very physically fit and have a lot of upper body strength you could swing a bat at your clone hard enough to put them down in one with a variety of hit locations, but I personally have rather weak arms and a lot of body fat. I don't know where *I* could hit my clone except the head that would put them down quickly. I don't know how much upper body strength the average person has either, probably not that much. So maybe you would be favored with a bat, but I think I'd be favored with a knife, and I think the average person would be as well.

@@julianb188 Long blunt objects are worse than long sharp objects, but long blunt objects are better than short sharp objects (when in the right circumstance such as an open area). I do agree that if the bat user tried to close the gap they would lose hand-over-fist though.

@@huh4894 The question is whether a long blunt weapon is better than a short sharp one. I don't think it's very convincing to just say one is better without something to back up your claim. Also, if the bat user loses if they close the distance, then why don't you think they lose if the knife user does the same? Do you really think it's impossible or unlikely?

Google says I'm wrong about metal vs wooden. Whatever, even better for the wooden bat holder!

You're forgetting that its faster for you to switch hands with a knife than it is for the swing to connect. Bat swings are also very telegraphed, giving you the option to jump back which should put you outside the range of the bat. Sprinting in after the strike misses puts the bat on the side of your spare arm, which can be used as a sacrifice (since its almost certainly getting broken by the next swing) while you close distance. The closer you get to your bat wielding opponent, the less force they're capable of putting in to their swings.

A properly made wooden bat won't crack or splinter. They're regularly used to hit balls that weigh 145 grams, traveling around 150km/h, with their own velocity that I can't even bother to calculate, but is enough to definitely apply a lot of force. The impact force from that is gonna be more than the impact from hitting a person's body, which is around as elastic. Of course, a metal bat with a solid core is gonna hit heaver and be better at parrying the knife since it'll be less likely to catch on the blade (despite wooden bats being lacquered), but a standard issue wooden bat is more than sufficient. Otherwise you are correct about your reasoning. Also keep in mind that the bat can parry the knife but not vice versa, and a good hit on the arm will definitely break the arm. You don't even need to go for body blows, though, a jab to the chest after a parry will definitely knock the wind out of them. Bat wins so hard it's not even funny, the only thing the knife has going for it is if you throw it and hit them in the throat or heart, that's a one-hit KO. (Maybe a longer knife could also go for the eye socked to try to hit the brain, but I'm assuming it's not a particularly long knife that borders on being a dagger.) Miss that one chance and you are so Joever.

@@drewbabe Your calculations are off. The average Major League Baseball player swings a bat at 70 miles per hour (112 KPH). The average person is considerably slower than that. The average bat length, plus average arm length, gives the bat user a range of 61 inches. An Average human can lunge that distance in 0.3 seconds, which is only 0.05 seconds slower than the average human reaction time (0.25). So the bat user is unlikely to even be able to react in time let alone land a decisive blow before they're being grappled and stabbed. Jabbing with a bat is a bad idea since it does heavily reduced damage (comparable to a punch), can be deflected easily, and puts you at risk of having the bat grabbed. Given that this is your clone, they're probably not going to be able to yank the bat out of your much more solid grip, but that WOULD give them the chance to close the distance unharmed. And you've got it backwards, the bat only has one chance to win and that's landing a decisive leg strike that breaks the leg, or an unguarded headstrike that KO's. If they miss either of those, or if the knife user blocks with an arm (sacrificing the arm since its prob broken) they're now within the knife users range and well outside of their weapon's sweet spot. Upclose the bat loses hard.

Well to be fair this is a test that has been run with police officers. Knife guy easily gets in range without taking a shot if he is within 20 feet. 20-30 cop might get one or two off. This is assuming he has to draw the pistol rather than have it ready and aimed. But it does happen, enough for there to be scientific literature on it.

Sorry. Yourr objectivey wrong here. Police/any trained combatant is terrified of a knife. It goes guns, knives, anything else. Cops do not fuck with knives, especially if they are within like 25/30ft of someone with a knife.

You don't need the low pain tolerance for this to be true. Any average clone matchup is gonna favor the bat because of that reach. You'd have to find someone who's so sturdy that they don't immediately get a broken bone from the bat punishing them attempting a slash or stab, or the wind knocked out of them from a quick jab from the bat, but somehow isn't particularly strong, despite being built sturdy. Basically you'd have to find someone with built-in plate armor.

​@@drewbabeDo you honestly think it's that easy to break a bone with the average bat swing?

Nah, knife'd win.

Actually, though I completely agree with the rest of your comment, knives can and do win against people with guns. Happens all the time, if the knife user is within 20 to 30 feet and rushes the gun user they can pretty much always reach them and start stabbing before the gun user can draw and fire their weapon accurately. There are a lot of tests that have been done on this, usually with cops. The cop can typically draw and fire if they have 20 feet, but only one shot and the knife user likely isnt instantly dropping from one pistol round. So he was actually correct about that, in a lot of cases knives do beat guns. But it's always when the guy with the gun doesn't have it drawn yet in a surprise attack.

Bat blows don't have to be lethal, they'll punish any attempt you make to swing or jab with the knife by easily parrying it due to their leverage and mass, allowing a quick follow up with a wrist swing or a jab to break your stance, giving enough time for a proper swing that breaks your arm or shoulder, and from there, it's over. Only way the knife wins is if you throw it and perfectly hit them in the heart or the throat. If you miss that one throw, then you're unarmed and about to be crumpled. Medieval combat was all about range, with swords being only backup weapons, let alone daggers and knives. Spears, polearms, bows, and slings were the kings of medieval combat, all because of their range. Pure blades were more convenient for everyday self-defense due to the portability, but we're not talking about everyday life here, are we?

"Easily parrying a knife" lmfao. Long range weapons like spears are used in war, not thin baseball bats.

I think its a bit but it wouldn't be unlike Joe to genuinely deflect all criticism

he is not wrong 😊

From what I’ve been told from my dad who’s experienced gettin shot, stabbed, and beaten, he’s said that getting stabbed feels like getting punched and that the pain of being cut comes after the adrenaline wears off. Whereas getting beaten with blunt force trauma is a pain that kicks in almost immediately. He also said that being shot feels like the worst of both worlds.

@@braydenlanter95 I'm not arguing which hurts more. I'm just arguing why a bat is better against a knife.

@@theorixlux I know I was just putting it out there

Reach is irrelevant since to swing with any real force the bat user would have to be mostly stationary. This means the knife user can sacrifice an arm by using it to block the trajectory of the bat, thus taking the brunt of the force and likely resulting in a broken arm. This would hurt like hell, but with adrenaline this isn't stopping the knife user from continuing to sprint forward (*which is absolutely faster than backpedaling*) and stabbing repeatedly once close. Even an untrained user can manage 5 stabs in 2 seconds. Each of these stabs to center mass being far more likely to cause actually lethal damage, and each resulting in major bleeding that quickly saps your body of oxygen and the ability to keep fighting. You're making the mistake of assuming someone with a knife will just keep distance, and also forgetting that bat swings that miss result in relatively large recovery times unless the person is trained which most people are not. Meanwhile it takes virtually no training to stab a person repeatedly with a knife.

@@RecliningWhale oh yeah absolutely! The knifer needs to close the distance. But the bat doesn't need all that much force to keep the knifer away; no need to stand stationary for an MLB swing. Smack at the wrists from 5 feet away, or even a decent thrust would leave a nasty bruise. I'd argue that's more than enough to threaten the knifer from closing the distance. I don't see an amateur stabber intentionally sacrificing his arm tho, even if he knows it is his best chance to close the distance. I'm not assuming someone with a knife would keep the distance, their best chance is to get close. But the length of the bat makes it unlikely. Just keep the bat up. Don't do wild swings unless you're sure to land a critical blow, jab towards the face, swat away the hands.

This is nonsense, pain is not taking you out of the fight when you have adrenaline pushing you through.

​@@dreambuffer Spoken like someone who's never been hit by a car (I'd say never been punched in the face but I haven't either and I don't wanna be hypocritical y'know)

@@dreambuffer I'm guessing we're both speaking out of ignorance so the jury's still out there

If it's a fight to the death I think broken bones or stab wounds wouldn't hold most people back from using all their strength to keep themselves alive

When I did self defense training, it’s true that you’re taught to run, and that defending against a knife will get you cut/stabbed. But when defending against a bat we were taught to avoid getting hit at all costs cause you will get stunned and then you’ll get wailed on. Yes a knife is advantageous in close quarters and grappling, but if you get hit with a bat even one time it can put you out of commission. Plus you can strike while moving backwards and maintain some range and power which you can’t do with a knife. You said a bat will buy you a couple of seconds, but hitting someone with a bat buys you another strike, and another, etc. This is why I think the bat wins against a knife.

@@braydenlanter95 The trick, I believe, is getting in a _meaningful_ hit in time. A bat is a bludgeon: bludgeons are threatening at a particular distance - where it's most effective as a force multiplier, while taking advantage of your weight shifting and your body moving. A bludgeon's strength is that no matter how tough or protected your target is, it's _going_ to hurt, so long as you hit it where the force is focused. But there's nothing to dissuade a would-be attacker from initiating a grapple besides fear. Swinging a bat isn't slow, but closing in is _very_ fast. You move in, and the closer you get, the less force you're being struck with, because you're farther and farther from where the bludgeon's force is focused. It's probable that you just get - relatively - limply struck by the middle of the bat or close to where it's being gripped, where there's not enough heft and power to make a meaningful impact. The few feet of reach that a bat has is a very short distance to travel, and it's not like a spear, where maneuvering the weapon to punish an attempted approach is virtually instantaneous. A bat has some level of 'wind-up' to a swing. You've got one shot to time a meaningful hit, and you have to be precise or you're not going to daze your target like you mean to. Using a bat takes time you don't have to maintain reach you can't hold. Against an unarmed opponent, I'd be inclined to agree that a bat would win out reliably. I don't believe a bludgeon of any sort wins against a knife, though, not unless it has something like a thrusting point to take advantage of significant reach, like a lucerne. I don't think it's impossible for a bat to win, I just really don't think it's likely or common. Where it does happen, though, it's definitely those times where it strikes somewhere like the head and allows for repeated strikes on a then dazed opponent. I'd recommend *6 Martial Arts Experts Locked with a Knife Attacker* if you're curious where I'm coming from. I can't imagine an extra three to four feet of reach changes things substantially unless that reach is on an edged weapon like a sword, capable of quickly capitalizing on that advantage. Closing the gap is really quick and, once it's closed, it's over.

@@selly-ssrb That’s reasonable. I’m not going to pretend as though I’m not biased towards bats, I mean I was a baseball player, a catcher specifically so I’ve practically lived behind baseball bats being swung. I’ve been hit in the head a number of times either at the beginning of the swing or the follow through, and even with a very nice and protective helmet and the bat not at max velocity, that shit staggers and dazes you. I’ve been hit in the hand and couldn’t grab a baseball with it for days. Been hit in the forearm and biceps and lost all grip strength instantly. I believe that between two amateurs or even mildly experienced people, the person with the bat would have the advantage just because if they hit you once then they can hit you again and again. Also, you can choke up on the bat and turn it into something more resembling a baton if you can’t keep some distance. I am also assuming that the fight doesn’t start within arms reach of each other. I’ve been picturing about ten or so feet of separation at the start. Between two experts though, I can absolutely see a knife expert winning most of the time. Especially if they’re good at grappling and hand to hand.

@@braydenlanter95 A solid point, with changing your grip on the bat. I'm a little embarrassed to admit I hadn't thought of that. I think what it comes down to is there are distinct turning points. A guy with a bat delivers a hit to the head, for example, that's a win for the guy with the bat. If the guy with the knife is even still breathing/conscious, he's gonna be dazed long enough for the guy with a bat to get off another hit, and another, and another, as you said. It really comes down to who lands the first meaningful blow. If the guy with a bat dazes, then he's got as many as he needs to finish things off. If the guy with the knife rushes and gets in a stab, he's probably going to get in more. Once a decisive move is made, the lead isn't changing hands. I think it's just how often things go one way or the other we're uncertain about. I'm not actually sure at which points, and to what extent, skill changes the dynamic. That's where I draw a blank, and what you're saying sounds about right at least to me, so I'll defer to you there. Distance beyond what a weapon can enforce, though, I'd have to imagine would close fairly quickly. Without some force to discourage an advance, there's not a lot of reason to stay apart in this case. The way I picture things, at least until the first substantive move is made, is maybe five or six feet of distance - about as far as the guy with a bat could reasonably threaten with a swing. Maybe a little more out of fear, with less experienced opponents?

@@selly-ssrbI think for sure it comes down to the "if you were fighting a clone of yourself" part of the hypothetical. The physical ability and mental state of the people involved, despite some of the inherent merits of either a bat or a knife. I honestly think skill doesn't change things in this circumstance because if you're really good with a knife, and you're fighting a clone of yourself, your clone is going to understand that too and use that knowledge to their advantage. If you're using the average joe hypothetical then skill is equivalent anyways and also is hard to gauge. You're 100% right about the "turning point" dynamic: it doesn't matter how good you are with a knife/bat for example if while you're rushing the bat user you slip and fall, or if the bat user while backpedaling falls. Most street fights aren't epic duels, they're decided in moments and circumstance entirely. Another aspect that's not even really talked about here is also the inherent danger of completely unarmed people. Especially with the clone hypothetical I think a lot of people are overestimating their ability to get close enough with a knife without it immediately becoming a grapple on the ground where the person with the strongest physicality is going to win in all likelihood, barring any severe damage.

I think your point about stopping power and lethality goes the other way, actually. Knives have such low stopping power, you basically can't ever win without taking damage. Sure, your opponent will die, but you're getting clobbered in the meantime. On the other hand a bat has very high stopping power despite its low lethality, so one hit is enough to turn the fight completely in your favor. From there you can get as many hits as you need. No one walks away from a knife fight - because a knife user cannot realistically prevent their opponent from dealing damage. On the other hand, someone always walks away from a bat fight - often both people - because the bat will end the fight really fast before lethal damage is done. Nobody is gonna go for the extra 5 hits on a downed / yielding opponent just to clinch the murder charge IRL Edit: And to elaborate on a misunderstanding that I think is central to Joe's argument - just because it is a fight to the death, that doesn't mean the fight ends when someone gets a lethal hit. The fight ends when the fight ends. A good bat hit prevents the opponent from fighting with any coordination. A good knife hit means they will die eventually but does very little in the short term. Bat gets first hit -> bat likely wins and survives Knife gets first hit -> has to keep fighting, both probably die The case where the knife user lands stabs / slashes while avoiding being hit perfectly for minutes on end is vanishingly unlikely if both fighters are untrained

@@tortoise-chan One thing to keep in mind is that the knife user should *not* go for the first hit using the knife. Instead, their first hit should be with their offhand so they can grapple the bat user. That'll prevent them from getting the distance necessary to use the bat, while keeping them within the knife's effective range. Another thing to keep in mind is that it's not easy for the bat user to back away or create distance once they've been hit once, since the knife user will be past their guard and will probably keep moving forward to press the attack. It's not quite down to first hit, it's down to whether the bat user scores the first hit. If they do, then they win. If they don't, then they have to somehow create distance against someone who's grabbed them by the arm and is repeatedly stabbing them in the gut.

I’ve never been stabbed, but I have been hit with a baseball bat. That shit stops you in your tracks no matter how much adrenaline is pumping. Nobody is countering a baseball bat, you have to avoid it no matter what if you want to win. And contrary to what people seem to think, swinging a baseball bat wildly doesn’t really leave much of an opening to get close. And if you misjudge that little opening, you get walloped and sent off staggering. Yes, nobody wins in a knife fight. But that doesn’t necessarily mean “guy with knife is guaranteed to win”, especially considering the other guy has the larger, more intuitive weapon.

@@tortoise-chan "nives have such low stopping power, you basically can't ever win without taking damage. Sure, your opponent will die, but you're getting clobbered in the meantime." how is a bat gonna clober you close range?

@@braydenlanter95 ". Nobody is countering a baseball bat" aint no way, there is literally videos on liveleak of people getting hit with baseball bats and giant wooden sticks, unless u get an insane hit off there aint no wayu It "stops you in your track" ¨¨ there is no guarantee win for anyone.

The only way this would be the case is if the fight was highly uneven. it takes a lot more incompetence to miss a bat swing than to miss a knife stab, and it's way easier to dodge a knife than a bat.

@@HaloTropical Completely wrong. Bat do the most damage when hitting their target with the first part furthest from the handle, from there, the closer you get to the wielder the less damage it does. Knifes are only really useful at grappling distance for the majority of the population, at this distance it is virtually impossible to miss your opponent, especially when they're busy trying to swing a two-handed weapon (bat) at you. This means the bat user has to either let go of their bat with at least one hand to try to intercept and grab your knife arm, or KO you from the start before you get close. Its also at least twice as fast to sprint forward as it is to backpedal backwards. This means its easier for the knife user to close distance than it is for the bat wielder to keep them at bay.

@@RecliningWhale you can jab with a bat and knock someone's wind out, break their nose, dislocate their shoulder, etc. so the backpedal argument makes no sense. bat can parry a knife, but not vice versa. bat wins except in specific scenarios where the skill levels are either so low that it's just two idiots swinging at each other, or in the tiny intersection between dexterity and competence, where the knife user can throw it and maybe hit a vital out of luck, but the bat user won't use a safe stance or block with the knife because they're both too dumb to position safely.

@@drewbabe Jabbing will get the bat grabbed. This will likely not result in the bat being taken from you, but will jam up your ability to attack long enough for the knife to close distance. Breaking someone's nose or dislocating their arm are not instant KO's and will just result in pain that can be ignored thanks to adrenaline flooding your system. You're unlikely to land a gut strike since that can be countered with a horizontal swipe of the arm. Bat cannot parry a knife since knife strikes only occur within grappling range, which is too close for a bat to do anything or be useful. The fact that you bring up throwing the knife highlights how little you actually know about armed combat. No one wielding a knife should attempt a throw when lunging and stabbing while grappling is a much safer option. Landing a knife throw isn't an instant kill, and only disarms the knife wielder.

​@@HaloTropical I imagine someone stabbing you would lunge, have his shoulder hit you, and then go for a stab. Compared to a bat's swing, which would probably go to baseball-like stance, I think I disagree on dodging knife's stab being easier.