@@GospelSaves million? Come on now - let’s not be sensational! Listen, no matter what church you go to, you’ll always eventually find fault because there are sinful / fallen humans inside. Look at the 1st century church - one example was a man sleeping with his dad’s wife and they were proud of it! Paul said hand that man over to Satan. There will always be issues that need to be dealt with in God’s church, sadly. But the ICOC has changed my life and the lives of many thousands of lives! You can’t be a solo Christian and make it to heaven, IMHO! All Christians need to find and belong to a body of believers. Wish you the best.
There's also the ICC (International Christian Church) that's basically ICOC 2.0. It's in a lot of colleges, and I knew nothing about the Gospel, and was deceived by them for 4 days. Thank the Lord for speaking to me about their deceit, and for pulling me away from their false doctrine. Praise the Lord for showing me the truth and His true voice. Amen.
I was a member of the Seattle Church of Christ from 2013-2015. After I left, I was ideologically trapped within the pattern of thinking that permeates this organization for an additional five years; until April 2020 when Covid-19 hit. Suddenly I had a lot of free time to learn about my faith and why I believe what I believe. I have had a lot of distrust when it comes to Christian churches and their teachings, and its been really frustrating to try and unlearn and then relearn sound doctrine. Thanks for this sermon. It really helped shape my faith and point me in a new direction!
I was part of the ICOC in New York for 12 years . It was my life and it was painful leaving . I was look at as unspiritual as they call it someone not in leadership or someone not discipling someone else. They made me feel guilty all the time for who I was. The manipulation,control ways that make you feel like there something wrong with you rather than the church. But I well say this. The church had good intention in the being. It's the leader that corrupted the church. When people in power start having a GOD like concepts and It trickle down to the youngest Christain and you believe whatever, But god is always in control and that is why the church broke up and none of those big leader are their anymore. The church wasn't totally right, but they were not totally wrong . They need god to show them the true. Satan goal is to destroy and keep people away from god. I hope people see Satan is the enemy not ICOC and we will have to answer to god one day for what we do.So find the true and make it about god.
This message just saved me! This whole time i kept thinking it was works, it was something i had to do. Yet it’s faith! THANK YOU SO MUCH! GOD BLESS YOU! KEEP BEING BOLD IN SPREADING THE TRUTH THAT JESUS LOVES! ♥️♥️♥️
I used to go here and I constantly felt like I had to work to stay saved. It was work for your salvation or burn for eternity. It was the worst time of my life because I felt like I was going to hell constantly during and sometime after I left
@@nasta-hacyril9586 I really don't think he meant that type of work (but yeah I get it)..... the actual translation is more like "Faith without ACTION is dead." ..... but they make you feel more like "Faith without DISCIPLING is eternal HELLFIRE"..... their definition of WORK is different. Only someone who actually STUDIED with them can understand this concept. (sorry)
@@michaelkeycash7734 I did study with them and I'm currently part of the Boston Church of Christ. I believe that discipling us is a way to help us grow in our faith and sharpen each other. I don't see it as something you need to be saved or get saved and it wasn't mentioned in that way but it surely is beneficial in our walk with Christ. Sometimes we just need Spiritual friends or people who are more mature in their faith to remind us to keep going and be in the light when we don't really know how to
@@nasta-hacyril9586 Yes Sir. Thank you. Everyone needs a mentor as all the leaders in Bible has. How can we help each other to grow spiritually without someone to guide us. That is what the Bible is teaching and showing thru book of Acts. And the Book of Paul.
I was a New York city international church member for roughly like six months, the women’s ministry leader and her finance approach me at my college, and from there on we all started sharing our faith and then next thing I know I was participating in their bible talks, bible study and then I got Baptist within their local church within like two months or so. During the first few months, one of the church members and the leader was consistently calling me or texting me to participate in their bible talk, men midweek and other activities. During those times, they explained to me who should I date/married within their own congregation only, they wanted me to share my sins with them like all the times. If I did something wrong, they would have kicked me out of church and all. They were always pressuring me to get a job while I was injured, they spoke about how a person sold everything to give to missionary. The only thing that really bother me a lot was that they always wanted people to give contribution to church. I remember on my last visit to church how the pastor told his church member “I’m very disappointed with all of you, you havent gave a lot of contribution, go out their and sell some stuff”. There’s was a time during men midweek that the pastor wanted me to come with him during a fundraiser (which was giving up raffle tickets to people and getting money in return), I told him not I can’t because I had classes that day. the man got so upset he was trying to intimated me by making me feel afraid and scare. They were always pressuring me the most to share my faith with others. Right after one of the member made a awful comment about homosexuality, we all went our separate ways, and they stop calling me and reaching out to me.
I was baptized on May 3, 1998...18 yrs of age at the time. I was a member of the Mid-Cities sector, Los Angeles region. I was involved with Kids Kingdom, Teens, and Campus ministry. I really thought I found a church that loved and lived like the Bible taught. It was the unity that attracted me to the church. After 2 years, I realized all I sacrificed was B.S. It damaged my thoughts about Christianity as a whole. But I still know there is a GOD.
I was involved with the Milwaukee ICOC. Love-bombing, legalism, false doctrine, etc. it’s crazy to see how almost the whole of the Christian church can identify them as a cult and I fell into it as a Psychology major. Thankfully removed from this group and in a better, gospel believing group that actually loves me and truly cares about my walk with God.
He made several great points. I appreciate "the counting the cost". Counting the cost has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with follow-ship. Following Jesus. Amen!
If you're in this church and having doubts, please...seriously assess and weigh up whether they are REALLY following the bible as they claim. Are the leaders ...loving? According to 1 Cor 13 ? Are they considerate? Are the leaders easily angered? Do they dishonour others? 13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. We joined the church with a desire to really follow the bible. Unfortunately, love is not taught. Evangelism and numbers - is big on the teaching - more than love is. Are the leaders Christlike? Or are they wolves in sheeps' clothing? What are their 'fruits'? Are they good? Or bad? (A good tree gives good fruit, a bad tree, bears bad fruit). Have they got the Holy Spirit? Or are they negative? Stop and assess your own life....has being in the church made you more Christlike? Or another Pharisee? To stop and assess - is not making a judgement. It's simply assessing. If someone has brown hair, you say 'they have brown hair'. That's not a judgement. But an observation. Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. Pray humbly on your knees and ask God to show you whether you should continue being a member or this movement, or whether you should leave and do your own walk with God/Jesus. I don't go to any church now, and am so relieved. But I do my own walk with the Lord and can feel Him close to me. My gut feeling always said something was wrong. To try to stay can be so damaging, and you are left with bad memories.
@Moh Zahir USMC مسيحي 7777 I've said once I'll say it again. Just because it looks like a church doesn't mean it is. Hit the hammer right on head awesome
I am a member of the Boston Church of Christ and have been for about 35 years. I understand many people had negative experiences with the ICOC. I know that a lot of people were hurt by some of our leader’s abuse of authority. I saw it firsthand. But the leaders in my church repented of this a long time ago and our fellowship is a loving, graced filled fellowship. My best friends are in this church and their love for me is unconditional. In regard to what we teach about how people are saved, I’ve studied the doctrine of salvation on my own for many, many years. It isn’t complicated. But it’s difficult for some to accept: “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 3:38. We are saved the moment God forgives our sins. Our sins are forgiven in baptism. We receive the Holy Spirit in baptism. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus, in baptism. And yes the King James Bible says the same thing. If people are saved by praying Jesus into their hearts then God would have told us to do this and we would see examples of it in the Bible. The are none. Do I believe I could ever work for my salvation? Absolutely not! I know who I am without Jesus. His blood freed me from my sin. I am a new creation in Christ. I am saved by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, not by what I do or don’t do for God. None of this minimizes the importance of obeying Jesus’ teachings. Jesus said If we don’t obey his teachings we don’t love God or even know God (John 14:23-24, Luke 13:22-30). To all of you former members of the ICOC, I’m truly sorry you were hurt. I pray God will heal you and that you will forgive your brothers and sisters from the heart. And please be careful to not slander God’s people. The devil wants to divide us! And be careful not to water down the gospel because of what the church did or didn’t do for you. The message is still the same. Jesus isn’t looking for passive followers! (Luke 9:23-26, Luke 13:22-30, Luke 14:25-33). God’s word is eternal! Peace ❤
@@richardrodriguez407 If he were obedient to the gospel then he would not be trusting in water baptism for salvation. 1 Corinthians 1:17. Water baptism is a good work but it does not save the soul.
@@callummiechel9036 Here's just an analogy: If you received a FedEx with an ATM card and a letter. The letter says "I'm a distance family member and I have left you $1M in this account. The pin 1 2 3 4." You don't have the money yet. You have access. If go to ATM and type in 1234 without inputting the card you still don't have the money. If you put the card in and type 6789. You still don't have the money. You just have access. So then you put the card in and correct pin 1234. You daily limit is $1M. You push for $1M. All the money comes out! No one believes that the reason they have $1M is because they pushed 1234. That just happened to be the point where you now receive the actual gift. No one is going to think their work of inputting the card in the ATM and pushing the pin they were given earned them the $1M. But they will be able to say that was the exact moment, because of an amazing gift, they received the money.
I came to know Christ through "The Church of Christ " in Miami, Florida. The main leader was Kip McKean and our local South East leader was Phil Lamb. They were strong on Discipleship and strong in biblical reading and great fellowship. Many great hearts, hard to leave thinking you were the only one real church. I was suffering from emotional issues at some point in time while still there. But the church and it’s discipleship made it much worse. Discipling became harsh and out of control not always directed at me but it was there. Women leaders ridiculed my wife in a discipling gathering, and my wife did not tell me immediately. Two years later these same women leaders leave the church; which they would describe as fallen away! They believe you are no longer saved once you leave. As if they can turn off salvation and turn it back on at their will. They lost all sense of grace! I knew that wasn’t right but never approached it hard enough, I lacked knowledge. There came a time discipling became out of control and they bragged about it ! looking back there was so much Self Righteousness. And then a major letter from another well- respected leader exposed & challenged church leadership to repent! And immediately people were leaving the church. When this letter was read we had been with the church already 9 years and yet we hung in there a little longer after the letter.. My wife read the letter and said now I understand what you were struggling with, notes dating back two years; praying please God give me clarity and understanding. We finally had the courage to leave. Many ignored the letter altogether; and went on as if nothing ever happened, basically, they couldn’t accept it? Many of those same leaders today that wrote books preached great sermons left the church, and that's OK. Yet sadly some divorced their wives some never returned to a church or God due to what I have read or know from them personally. I'm so glad now, that I'm on the outside looking in “ THANK GOD” I admit I was part of a Cult ! The cult portion has to do with Salvation through Baptism.. I struggled with this and it was hard for me to attend another church after leaving. Through fasting & Prayer, God showed me sciptures I was once blinded too see. Yes, i see baptism in the scriptures but those scriptures were a translation of Koine Greek and were mistaken by unschooled Evangelist leaders. Now please don't get me wrong many are very loving and giving hearts in the Church of Christ and were there for me and gave me direction through one on one discipleship. Today this same church has split into various section and names. Many beautiful people still stuck there. And I love them. Yet they still believe and follow church of Christ standards. Sadly their in a Cult by declaring that salvation is the only through physical Baptism. Funny only the Cults believe this. The Church of Latter-day Saints , the Jehovah Witnesses and few others .. etc... And yes the Church of Christ. A church that once thought we were advancing the kingdom of God that thought they were on the cutting edge and modern. Today they lack growth their dated and still separated from most modern-day churches.
Haha. I was in the Miami church for a minute in 93. Good people. My room mates were real interesting. One was hard core all out commando Christian. The other was a bitter could of been famous singer. And the other was a womanizer. Me???? Full of guilt worried about hell.
I left the church over twenty years ago...before this “letter”you speak of. I have managed to keep in touch with a few of my old roommates from that time. But I never knew that there was some sort of letter scandal nor did I know that the church split up until a couple years ago. I’m dying to know what the heck happened?! I mean,what REALLY happened? Btw I was in the Long Beach,Ca church,Singles. I look back at that time as some of the happiest times in my life. All these crazy comments on this video,heck the video itself- is kind of bizarre to me. Chill people it was just a hard core church for serious believers. Only half-assed believers would think praying Jesus into your heart is all it takes. Funny how I don’t recall ever reading that in the Bible. Though I DO recall all sorts of passages about baptism. But whatever.
Before Kip McKean and Roger Lamb the Miami Gables COC was led by Robert Hach. He did a series on Grace vs Legalism and that challenged all of Kip's doctrines. Robert Hach shook things up in the late 80s before Henry Kriete's 2003 letter. For me it was a breath of fresh air, grace vs legalism and Hach's newsletters. I was already out and Robert was on his way out (I could be wrong but that's what I remember). I think this led up to Kriete's letter in 2003 where he described the leadership as a systematic evil....and that's what it was and still is.
@@alison2649 For "serious believers?" I've heard that attitude before. If the ICOC and the COC believe the Bible so much why don't they teach all of it in context, not doctrines based on pretexts and necessary inferences. What's wrong with expositional teaching book by book context by context. Example is Dr. Jerry Jones Exposition on Philippians. The ICOC has to major on their pet topical doctrines. Topical doctrines are fine but mainly in light of the Bible as a whole. In the COC, somehow, the only thing they know on Ephesians 5 is the ban on instrumental music. A doctrine based on a few verses yanked out of context. You can't build a whole teaching on a "necessary inference" and then use it as a test of fellowship and more extreme a salvation issue. And can they teach Romans, the whole book expositionally without trying to discredit imputed righteousness. They have a problem with that. One old preacher on YT said, "I can't sing On Christ the solid Rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand." You know the song. That song speaks of imputed righteousness. He believed in Christ, the cross, but not standing on Jesus' righteousness. I mean I remember hearing "God has done all He can do now it's up to you" WHY? Maybe imputed righteousness (upon faith in Christ) contradicts their understanding of baptism. Really? Sad, that man died recently and I don't know if he is in hell (or waiting in hades? to be judged with unbelievers) or with the Lord. I know anyone in Christ is immediately with the Lord when they pass on. This is serious. Now I was not taught the same as him (except batism) but COC do vary. We sang that song, believed what it said. This was Crossroads. But I wonder what the ICOC teaches on this. For now that's all I have to say.
The work of Jesus continues as He commanded in Matthew 28:16-20. As He said to all disciples, Matt 28:20 "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age". Until the last days the mission continues. As 1 John 2:6. Are you a true disciple of Jesus?
@@CelestinoEspinola yes of course. I belong to God and I know He knows me. I desire to do the will of the Father and certainly do the will of the Father. How about you? You’re certain in your salvation and keep hope in Christ alone?
@James Bang You are focusing too much on Salvation...Salvation comes from grace and not to be gained thru work. But God has a commission for every follower of Jesus Christ. To go and make disciple. Even without anything in return we need to obey that because of our gratitude and love for God and for people who are lost. Many "Born again" Christian always focus on Salvation as if they became disciple because of it. Don't forget that it is written, "Those who wants to save their life will lose it..."
Thank you so much for this eye opening sermon! I have been in an ICOC church for 6 years and I am having great difficulty leaving the church and this sermon is so very helpful. Thank you! ❤
I spent many years with this cult. When I left after finding out what was really happening via the Henry Kreite letter, I was devastated spiritually and emotionally. You could never make these leaders happy no matter what you did. You were never good enough. But that's the point. Thank you for sharing this message. So many things are clear.
Everything you said is spot on. I remember the way I pray before that “I will break the wall of sin”. made me laugh rn. I’ve been in that church (was called MMCC in the Philippines before) for almost 10 yrs I believe, but I do not have the knowledge I have now about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I feel like I’m walking on egg shells all the time because if I do not confess my sin, if I do not repent, if i do not break the wall of sin i will lose salvation. Because of the work they put on their “disciples” this made me prideful and feel righteous thinking I am of God and the others are not. I just pray that God will open their hearts and mind to His truth. That they start looking at the Bible in context and not twist it anymore to gain control of their members. I’m just very thankful that God saved me from their false teachings and realising that Jesus alone saves me takes off all the guilt, the pressure. It just made me free and content and at peace. I will pray with you also that God will save more people from that organisation and that no more people will be fooled into thinking that their church is the kingdom of god. God Bless!
"Born again" doctrine are always focusing too much on Salvation...Salvation comes from grace and not to be gained thru work. But God has a commission for every follower of Jesus Christ. To go and make disciple. Even without anything in return we need to obey that because of our gratitude and love for God and for people who are lost. Many "Born again" Christian always focus on Salvation as if they became disciple because of it. Don't forget that it is written, "For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it"(Matthew 16:25)
I can't think of a better and more accurate message on the ICOC and refuting their Disciples' Baptism for salvation doctrine. I was with Crossroads COC in the 80's when the Crossroads Movement, aka Boston Movement, Discipleship Movement, was going strong and moving into mainstream Churches of Christ. I was in high school when I was baptized, and left by the time I was in the college class. That was before the '90's when the Boston Movement reconstructed into becoming the ICOC. I was out by that time. Looking back I have no regrets getting out and it was after the Florida Evangelism Seminar and while I was in the military. It wasn't until making a careful study in Romans and had to confront chapters 3,4,5, 6 that challenged my view of baptism. And for that matter all of Romans. Later a Calvary Chapel started near me and I've been with them for years. Much more solid in teaching all of the scriptures, and not reading into certain verses while rarely teaching the entire books of the Bible. What's interesting is while with Crossroads I quit using the NIV and started using NASB AND NKJV. When visiting the ICOC I was surprised they were still using the NIV when nearly everyone knows how corrupt it is. I asked them about it, and the changes the NIV has to make every 20 years to maintain their copyright. They were clueless and shrugged it off. They seem more liberal now and not in a good way. As far as discipleship goes, it's merely body life when the ultimate goal is Christ formed in us. Look at Jesus' ministry. But you have to be convinced you are sealed for salvation and God keeps us saved and not us. The ICOC seems to rely upon themselves too much and less on the Holy Spirit.
Thank goodness you got out before the reconstruction. I made it through it. Had to beg to be in the church and confess bogus sins and then rebaptized. Legalism got worse.
@@susancastelli360 I used to get personal letters from one guy who I met at the FL Evangelism Seminar. He was urging me to "just come to Boston." I never did. Being at Crossroads and knowing some people (who to avoid who had a bad combo of legalism and religious pride) I can just imagine how it could get worse. I'm sure they pushed "what sins do you have to confess" and when talking with them they want you to repeat just about everything you said then twist your words. At least that's what I remember. Glad you're out. There are better churches but among many the leaven may be something else. I like Callum's preaching on this. Take care of yourself.
Hey guys, I'm a disciple of Jesus apart of the ICOC family. Just want to start a thread here with my responses to the video and share some of my experiences as well. Its ok if you disagree with me, I'm happy to talk things through and listen to your opinion. Let's keep it respectful and loving.
A common thing I hear is that COC teaches "salvation through BAPTISM" and that this is contrary to "salvation by GRACE through FAITH". The Bible teaches and the COC affirms that we are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith, AT baptism. Slight difference, but very important.
BAPTISM What did Jesus teach? Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19-20 What did the Apostles teach? Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12-13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 6:1-5, Titus 3:5 What did people do? Acts 2:41, Acts 8:12, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 22:16, Acts 10:47, Acts 19:5-6, Matthew 3:13-17
7:59 - "They believe there is no salvation outside of their church" This isn't true. The Church does not teach this. The belief is summed up in the statement "we are not the only Christian's, but we are Christians only". This isn't "culty" either. This is faith and assurance in what we believe and teach and know to be true.
10:00 - Do we teach "Disciple = Christian = Saved"? Absolutely. The argument that being a disciple of Jesus in the first century is different to being a disciple now is very weak and not founded in scripture at all. In Jesus' own words in Matthew 28. "Go and make DISCIPLES of all nations, baptising them in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU.
17:10 - "The word disciple doesn't appear in the epistles - point made, you don't have to be a disciple to be saved." In my opinion, this is a weak argument. The letters are written to disciples from a disciple. Why would he address them as disciples then?? Of course he used terms of endearment and affection because they were him family. Its also, pretty weird that your trying to throw out the GOSPELS and the ACTS, like they aren't important or apply to us.
My wife and I were in the Sydney ICOC for 13years until 2016. We still know numerous people in the organisation and sadly, it is just as twisted as ever.
@@i--luv--the--universe Hi, can you ask me some specific questions, as there is so much I could say? Can I ask why you were reading these RU-vid comments? Did you have some concerns.
@@SurferRicci Hi, I would like to know what are their opinions on certain matters. 1. Christians who are not members of ICOC. Do SCOC think they are not saved? 2. Is it true that they control every aspect of the disciples' lives, especially financial aspect? 3. Can you tell me more about the lead evangelist? Honestly, I find the region leaders are being genuine but the main evangelist seems a bit off to me 4. Is it true that they shun people who left the church? Are you still in contact with them? I actually really like their core beliefs about discipleship as I want to know more about the bible and am interested in evangelization, then i looked up online and found these kind of videos about them being cult. It would be very helpful for me if you can share some info about them and perhaps you can also recommend me any church in Syd that has good and solid discipleship?
@@i--luv--the--universe Hi Jaremeka, I'm happy to answer those questions for you. As I said my wife and I were members of the Sydney ICOC for 13 years. 1. Yes, that is essentially correct. If you are not part of the Sydney ICOC (or another ICOC church), they do not regard you as a christian. If you ask that question directly, you will get a vague answer implying they do think other people in other churches are christians. But the reality is they don't and their practice and teaching prove that. They do not fellowship or recognise or value any other churches. If you are a member of Sydney ICOC they will not allow you to even visit another church; even if you say your parents are part of that other church. They will strongly encourage you to have nothing to do with any non-ICOC friends you may have, and also have as little to do with your own family, as possible, (unless you think you can convert them). They will keep you so busy with church activities (church attendance, midweeks, discipling time with your discipler, bible studies, evangelising, the list goes on, and all are compulsory as far as they are concerned) you won't have time for any other relationship, except the manufactured relationships within the ICOC. If you are a uni student, you will struggle to meet your study requirements, because of a shear lack of time left to you, and there is a very high probability that you will either fail subjects or give up your studies completely. So many young people in the Sydney ICOC have gone through this exact experience. we know many personally. 2. Yes, they do intend on controlling every part of your life, including draining as much money from you as possible. They will try and control; where you live, who you live with, who you date, how you date, who you marry, when is the right time to get married, where you work, who you must get advice from, who your discipler is. This is all done to take total control of you and take away your God given freedom, and to isolate you from the outside world. The more they can separate you from reality, your friends, family, etc the more control they can have over you. Discipling is the main tool they use to control people. There is no confidentiality and very little integrity practiced in the discipling system. Anything you tell your discipler will eventually be discussed with various leaders all the way to the top. This might sound extreme, but it is a fact. After 13years I have seen it all. In regards to wanting more and more of your money; it is justified and will be coloured in the context of "saving the world", "world missions" and a number of other idealistic mission descriptions. The reality is, most of the money simply pays rent, wages to leaders and trips for those same people, to attend conferences and provide other perks, that certain leaders have no hesitation taking advantage of. Unfortunately some of these people are far from humble christ-like servants. You will notice, everyone is strongly encouraged to give electronically on the premiss "so you don't forget". The reality is, electronic giving is pushed, so leadership can monitor exactly what each person gives, and appropriate action "encouragement" can be taken for those who "don't give enough". They do not teach the giving that Jesus (God on earth) taught. You will never hear Matthew 6:1-4 taught in the ICOC. If you where giving all you had to feed the poor or the homeless and you were doing this in secret, and they found out, you would be rebuked and or strongly encouraged to stop, and give that money to the church. The complete opposite to what Jesus taught. Remember what Jesus told he rich young man who wanted to follow him. Again, to answer this question fully would take a long time. But, yes they will try and get as much money out of you as possible. 3. I personally know all the leaders at Sydney ICOC. When you say the lead evangelist I think I know who you are talking about. It can only be one of two people; one younger and one a lot older. I know them both very well. Sadly, they are both judgemental, controlling, manipulative, out of balance men, who don't understand the love of Jesus. You may have already noticed how judgemental they are in their sermons and lessons. How they make broad brush statements and judgements about other people, other churches, etc. This is part of their way to control "the disciples"; to keep poisoning peoples minds about anyone and anything that is not ICOC. Sadly, neither of these two men are disciples of Jesus; but rather disciples of men. The younger is the disciple of the older. You will notice the way the younger copies the way the older talks, his mannerisms and how he uses exactly the same terminology as the older. We know he younger very well, and he did not used to be like this. His mind has been poisoned by the older. You will hear un-christlike derogatory comments like "people in other churches think christians are supposed to be nice", as if being nice is some sort of flaw in a christian. They can talk up the front, but they are nothing like Jesus. They think the gospel is a recruitment program. Sadly, they don't understand how to actually love people. If you listen carefully to their talks and look at the scriptures carefully, you will notice they continually twist and misuse scripture. 4. Yes, if you leave this church you will be shunned/disowned; as is the practice in all cults. All the people that were supposed to be your good friends (your brothers and sisters) and love you, will drop you. You won't hear from them again, except to try and get you back. Once they know you won't be coming back, you will be dropped by everyone you thought loved you. That unfortunately is how the system works there. Love is totally conditional upon total conformity to their church system. Love is not because someone actually loves you. 5. Yes, there are a number of people we are still in contact with at the Sydney ICOC. They also struggle with the system there. We pray everyday that they will leave. The sad thing is that the longer you are there, the harder it is to leave (even if you want to). The reason is, because of what I said above (you may have given up pretty much all your relationships that are outside this church, friends, even family) and consequently your only relationships are with Sydney ICOC people. It can be so hard to walk away. Most people do leave eventually, with varying degrees of emotional and spiritual damage. You only have to do some google searches; like ICOC cult, and the like. One thing I can say with certainty, is if you stay in this system, you will eventually regret it. I hope I don't sound too pessimistic, but it is a very subtle and destructive church system. If you have any more questions. I'm happy to help. And, I do know some other churches who have very sound doctrine on discipleship and are loving and not controlling. Good luck in your search. God promised if you seek you will find. Unfortunately, sometimes this is part of the journey. God bless you.
@@SurferRicci Thank you so much for your detailed reply. That's what I thought about the main evangelist. He (the older one) always seems a bit off. I was about to ask you whether or not I am allowed to give the needy, besides the church but you already answered that question and that me more discouraged to go back. The reason why I was going there is because I want to study about the bible more and want to share the Gospel to others. I would be really grateful if you can tell me some churches in Sydney that have sound doctrine on discipleship.
The church today, at least in many parts of the West, is in serious spiritual decline, fighting for survival. One reason for this has been a serious neglect of God’s word, a loss of nerve in the Christian gospel, a failure to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ with authority. Amos 8:11
Evil. Damaging dogma, demonic doctrine. They've destroyed thousands of souls in the name of Christ. I was baptized Feb. 19, 1994 into the central region of the Los Angeles church where I faithfully served for six years. I left Jan. 9, 2000 never to return.
Just wanted to say, most of those prideful bullies got kicked out. I got baptized in 1995 and still a member. I do not believe just ICOC members are saved- never had-never will. I pay money only when I feel like it. I do not believe in the term fall-away unless a person turns to devil worship. I seen Kips pride first hand. He preached humility and never lived it. We kicked him out around 2003. We have started to rebuild in a Jesus way. The term ' Sharp people left when kip left. The congregation now is more focused on individuals and less on Leadership. We will continue to grow and try and do Gods true work. I agree we get into heaven by grace not works.
The ICOC can remove arrogant leaders, try to reform, and as much as I appreciate that the root is rotten. If salvation is dependent upon you having a near perfect understanding of disciples' baptism....as they teach it, and being a disciple before you're baptized, hardly no one will have assurance in salvation. And your assurance should never be on disciple's baptism to begin with. And your faithfulness in being a disciple. Or effectiveness in evangelism. None of that equals assurance for salvation. If so how many people will be rebaptized and rededicate themselves until they bear much fruit. What pressure, reliance upon the flesh. And if we know that is wrong then just liberalize whatever you know to be true. That also is terribly wrong. How to have assurance for salvation? FINISHED WORK OF JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS. But that's not a "hard message." So what if it is or not. We are saved by faith in Christ Romans 4. We ARE, not in the process of being, JUSTIFIED FREELY by faith in Christ Romans 5. First rely and trust on that, stand on that, and have fellowship with Jesus Christ and THEN do the works He prepared in advance for us to do. Being in Christ is Holy Spirit led and you have to detoxify from Church of Christ teaching on how the Spirit is a retired author to truly abide in CHRIST. Yeah ICOC is not the COC, but when I visited about 5 years ago they were teaching on the Limited View of the Holy Spirit for today. Not talking about gifts, but the DIRECT OPERATION of the Holy Spirit and that is Calvinism to them. I'm not for Limited Atonement so I'm not a Calvinist but I fullly believe the new covenant is Spirit led and yes to DIRECT OPERATION of the Holy Spirit. COC still suffers from the bad fruit of that doctrine, Limited View. Some COC believe the Holy Spirit Indwells each Christian but that is not their traditional view. But the damage is done even if they don't and that damage seems to be in the ICOC. Either a tendency towards legalism, control, or liberalism. The ICOC needs make changes all the way to the root, the foundation, better yet so does the entire Restoration Movement.
@@thyatiran Based on your knowledge, are there things at SCOC that you find worth questioning? I’d like to know also what are SCOC opinions on certain matters like other Christians who are not members of ICOC. Do they think they are not saved? Do they control how we should give offering and who to date? Thanks for the replies so far, though. I found it helpful and I appreciate it.
Thanks so much for this video. I was genuinely trying to study the word with friends and then somehow got involved with this groups Bible study sessions. And it really isn't just for study. It's to prepare you to be baptism worthy or ready. Its kind of just making you admit to being a sinner because you're not a disciple. And yes, they know a lot of Scripture, but theres a lot of Scripture manipulation. By grace through faith has no relevance. They say Paul's letters regarding being saved are not relevant because they assume he's talking to people already saved. Which makes no sense. Whats wrong in reiterating things to people? Most of what I learnt in first year of college I knew in high school. But it was still taught to me. And it's the same thing. Romans has Paul telling people already saved what saved them. So they can understand better and then tell others also. The amazing grace of God saves even the worst sinner. But then it is through faith. Recieving that gift of grace through believing in the son of God that saves. Grace through faith. So I dont believe Paul was just joking. He meant what he said. Also Jesus when he said anyone who believes has eternal life. Jesus meant what he said. I dont have anything against baptism, but they made me believe that I was baptised wrongly and had to do it again after joining their 8 bible studies. Where then is the grace of God in all that? If baptism is that makes me saved ie justified before God, where is the blood of Jesus that cleanses way better than the blood of Abel? Does God not forgive sin at the point of confession and repentance? Of course. I can give 20 verses that say this. He is full of mercy. And he forgives all who come to him. I could not longer see the grace of God in their doctrines. and no longer see the love of Jesus and his sacrifice. And it made me feel soooo inadequate and condemned. But Jesus says he didnt come to condemn. He came to save. i immediately made it clear that their doctrines are contrary to the Bible. Jesus is the saviour. From beginning to the end, the entire summary of the bible. And he is my saviour. Nothing else but Jesus. Thank God for the Gift of Jesus that made the difference for all people. Where would we be if not for Jesus . My salvation is in Him, I called upon that precious name and I was saved hallelujah!
You are absolutely right, the ICOC does not believe Jesus sacrifice was enough to save mankind. They believe you have to work your way to salvation. I don't know how any of them know when they have done enough work. It's kind of like a lucky dip. From my experience so many people in that system are guilt ridden because they feel their not saved unless they are doing the required amount of work the leaders prescribe (whatever that happens to be from one day to the next). And the few who think they are doing enough work, well they are generally looking down on everyone who isn't. It's a very, very sad place.
I was in the San Francisco church for 4 years. Yeah, a little culty..BUT... I met some beautiful people who really wanted to know God n do good.. it wasn't until I got into leadership (I WAS A BIG TOUGH BIBLE TALK LEADER...ewww) I saw the mind games, the elitism, the judgementalness, and I saw how I went from being a guy seeking God, into a religious bully. I learned allot, but it guided me to being a more compassionate person. I'm not a Christian, but I do try to forgive... I think the church was a good idea, but poorly executed. As far as the studies before getting baptized, I think again, a good idea. Build a foundation, but the studies would of been a little better if the doctrine was correct. Beautiful time in my life, but, nawwwww culty......oh..BTW.... WE'D SOMETIMES HAD SERVICE AT THE SCOTTISH RIGHT MASONIC TEMPLE.... Didn't pay attention back then, but, yeah, I'm pretty sure those in leadership knew something allot of us didn't know. Not against masonry, but, I think it would of been nice to keep us who who didn't know the handshake out of that temple. Disrespectful to us AND THE MASONS.
I knew someone who was in ICOC. She said that after a while she ran out of sins to confess (to her disciple-supervisor), and ended up making things up. 🤣
@@derdeolifant I see. Wow I was in the church for a few years and I really didnt have to confess to my disciple everytime I seen her. But if there is a major sin going on in my life then I should feel the need to confess. I trusted my friend/discipler to keeo it confidential. Its funny how every ICC in every state practice differently. Some are easy going than others. However I was in the ICoC before it split up in two churches. I visited thr ICC once in a while but nit for a couple years because of Covid. I been praying If I should return to this church. Have a nice day God bless.
Thank you for this video I was part of the icoc for too many years. I SMH that this icoc teaching still creeps in to haunt me after 17 years away. nderstanding the manipulations of the scriptures is very freeing
Kip McKean is a false prophet/ false teacher. I used to be with the L.A. Church of Christ. I'm glad I left. I'm now with Victory Outreach. Amen Victory Outreach forever. 👍😊😀🙌👼🙏🌈
@EF “So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up” Ephesians 4:11-12 NIV
I was in the Portland ICC December 2009-April 2012ish. It still effects me today honestly. When I was in the church I was 100% convinced that if I didn’t do everything exactly perfect like they say my mom and everyone else in my life who I haven’t baptized would be burning for eternity and it would be my fault because I wasn’t following Christ and I was the chosen example for my family. Wether it be like running a red light or not being able to find anything to sell or donate more plasma to get enough money for whatever special missions we had that month.
saffylew Honestly ☺️Come on, I left that church over twenty years ago but I look back on that time in my life so fondly. I didn’t grow up in a church going family so I eventually wanted to know all about Jesus,etc. I learned SO much those years I was in the church. Read the Bible cover to cover-twice! It’s so bizarre to me to hear all these hard core negative things ppl are commenting here. Evil? That’s crazy to me! I eventually left the church because I didn’t want to be SO hardcore anymore. I didn’t want to by so darn focused on Biblical stuff every day of my life anymore. You ppl who are saying that it’s a demonic cult,that they’re evil,etc sound SO SO ignorant of their actual teachings. So many different denominations exist in this world,this is just one of them. And may I say,it’s definitely not for everyone., It’s for the hardcore Jesus obsessed.
jacksonville church of christ ex member here. leaving was painful for my family. my father was the preacher and was the creator of the paradigm shift. when my parents got divorced he was quietly "let go" aka my family was excommunicated. the "Family" that i had known for 18 years never once spoke to me again in the most horrific time of my life. I was told to only yolk myself with church members, so when we were told to leave, elders told the church we were in sin and fell away. so of course no brothers or sisters ever reached out. i was finally faced with the harsh truth of the cult.
HI, I remember listening to the paradigm shift series and really found it interesting, for once someone was thinking a bit out of the box. That is why we visited you in 2016, your family welcomed the 4 of us into your home, and we are still grateful for that. Your father helped me see there were other ways of thinking, I am now aware of many things that are wrong, and I am taking distance with the organisation, and all types of religious institutions although I keep my faith in God. Even though I don't know the details, I am sorry for the way you were treated. I just keep the memory of a loving and hospitable family. Your father has done a lot of good things whatever some people may think of him. I am just grateful.
Sorry for your experience. I am also a former member. Did your parents divorce for biblical grounds or did one just choose to leave? Kip got burnt by his own rules when his daughter left. I used to like the fact that there were no divorces among faithful members before the Kreite letter. I think there were probably some that divorced after one spouse "left" the church, but I'm not sure of any cases like that. I still miss the strong fellowship and friendship that I had in my 10 years in the church, but am amazed that even after the "reform" that my old friends still wouldn't attend my wedding, etc.. I had considered checking it back out again, and considering re-establishing friendships, but maybe I should pray about that. I hope you have found a godly church now. An old friend now leads the Jacksonville church, but he may be as legalistic as ever for all I know. I may reach out to him and query him on what they truly believe now. He may be on the ICC side. I don't know.
I respect your father and the message he preached. He helped me to think outside of our teachings in the church and how to help those in need. I am so sorry your family went through this after their divorce. I believe their is a lack of lack of maturity within the ICOC. I hope it does not pull you away from your relationship with God. I am praying for you and your father.
Hello Mr. Callum. I just finished the First Principal Studies that you mentioned but it’s with International Christian Church also let by Kip Mckean. I was introduced to the church through my son who is only 17 yrs old and I’m now worried. Is this the same church as the International Church of Christ? Thank you.
@@callummiechel9036 thank you for replying. Please pray for my son and for the Lord to give me wisdom and discernment. My son is in so deep because of the friends he made in ICC. He barely even sleep cuz he’s so busy with ICC.
Please get him out!!!! I was targeted in college in the 80s. I was in until about 2002. I am so messed up now because of it. Friends in the church will not know him when he leaves and this will be hard.
I was a born again before. And God open my eyes as I read the Bible... Almost all the religion now and before are the same. They are not hard line and serious about Sin. They all just feel and emotionally good every Sunday worship service. Not dealing with sin, when it is just on the early stage(thoughts) is very critical. But I don't see that in almost all denominations. Discipling helps us Confess our sins to each other so that we may be healed as the book of James said. But no church is doing that. Now tell me, are your church doing that now?
I haven’t finished the entire video yet but I think you need to put more research into your topics Mr. Miechel. It would do you and your listeners well for you to read more of the original text before you speak on things. I understand you may have had bad experiences with the ICOC, I myself have as well, but in order for well informed people to take you seriously you need to be well informed too and that simply isn’t the case it seems. First of all I’m about 33 minutes into the video, and honestly I don’t understand what your issue is with the word disciple. I’m not even talking about the ICOC requirements that are attached to that label but I just mean the word in general, you seem to have a problem with using the term disciple for a Christian. Put simply a disciple is really a dedicated student of a certain teacher. In the ancient world, disciples were more than students as they tried to imitate the life and teaching of the master. ...are we not called to imitate Christ??? To FOLLOW him??? And to my point that you should read the original texts before you try to misinform your listeners, the verse that says “go and make disciples” is “mathEteusate” in the original Greek. Matheteusate means literally “to make learners”, right? Well the literal word learners in Greek, is translated into the word disciples in other instances in the Bible. And if you actually think of what the word disciples means, it makes a lot of sense because like I said the word disciple essentially means a very dedicated learner. Another thing to point out to you is that the word used to tell them to teach, which is “didaskontes” (and is used in the following verse which says “teaching them to observe...), is not the word that they used in v. 19. Lastly I mean Strong’s Concordance even has the direct translation of “mathEteusate” to mean “to make disciples” so....I don’t know what else to tell you. This is the problem with being so stuck on one translation, is that sometimes even the KJV gets it wrong and you are too wrapped up to even consider looking at other translations other than to criticize them. But like I said I think you need to deal with the hurt that you felt from people in the ICOC before you give a sermon on how horrible it is, because you’re giving out false and biased information to people. Thank you and I hope you have a good day *Edited to add time stamp - at 31:03 Great Commission passage is mentioned
@@callummiechel9036 to a certain extent sure, however, you can’t have two masters and want to follow Jesus. If you claim to be a believer, but are a slave to sin And never change, then you’re not a true follower either.
@@wdekeizer If you believe that you have to turn from sin to be saved then you do not believe that Jesus died for your sins. Should a believer change their ways? Sure. Do they need to change their ways to receive forgiveness from the Lord? Absolutely not. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I don’t think he has a problem with the word disciple. The problem is them telling you that you aren’t a Christian if you aren’t a disciple and baptized in their church. You have to watch the whole thing because he is right about them. Every person’s testimony about this church is the same. They use this cookie cutter works salvation which is nonsense
@@wiggytv_ I understand that. For mine at least our doctrines on discipleship relates to ICOC but we have accepted membership of new people if they’ve already been baptized or show their faith in actions prior to getting to know them.
So I just joined the ICC a few months ago and this video and various others speak the same message; I don’t need to work for salvation Jesus has already given me. But I’ve been trained to think that the gospel is too good to be true, and I must pay God back for his sacrifice. Who’s interpretation of the Bible should I believe? I’m going to keep studying and questioning things before I get too deep. Pray I make the right decision.
Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Hello Callum, I have just started listening to this and note your first point is unfounded. I checked the NIV texts and they have offspring in the text and seed in the notes. So no contradiction. It's always wise to read more than one translation
@kateberebere NIV Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[a] meaning one person, who is Christ. This verse in Galatians 3:16 makes no sense in the NIV when you try and find the word seed in Genesis regarding the promise made to Abraham The word seed is not found, instead it is either 'offspring' or 'descendants'. The NIV contradicts itself.
@@callummiechel9036 Good day Callum, Genesis 12:7, 13:15 & 24:7 all verses state offspring in the verse and seed in the footnotes. There's no contradiction as you can have more than one word describe a thing.
@@kateberebere If you still cannot see the contradiction then you cannot be helped. The word 'seed' needs to be in the main text not the footnote. The apostle Paul is not quoting a footnote.
@@callummiechel9036 Before criticizing how Paul renders the text, you should exegete the text yourself. In Genesis 13:15 and 17:8 the phrase in English is "and your descendants". However, the Hebrew word is וּלְזַרְעֲךָ֨ from זֶרַע which can mean either seed or offspring. So when Paul refers to Abraham's seed in Galatians 3:16, it makes perfect sense and is in full agreement with the original text. There is no contradiction here. You are simply wrong.
If I were to choose between baptist and the ICC I choose ICC. Baptist believe in praying Jesus christ in the heart (false doctrine) "If you confess with you mouth" was written to people who were already saved. Baptist they have no power of the god, and they criticize a lot ICC- have tons of true brotherly love, extremely transparent, they are fervent for God and the Bible and mostly getting people saved and baptized, getting them to truly repent and to be part of the kingdom of God. Their preachings are legit and their passion is amazing. I am not a Christian who believes the gift of the holy spirit are gone, or that prophets or apostles are done away with FYI
The Meeshies they don’t teach works lead to salvation but they do question you love for Christ if you are not willing to serve, invite people to church, have fellowship and walk new people through the Bible studies. Which is fair. Most Baptist can be lazy with their desire for people to get saved., don’t have fire to spread the gospel or lead people to repentance. Yeah a pastor might but not his whole congregation this is what makes the ICC awesome. I’m not ICC
@@jonycruz2430 You don't know many real baptists then. I was with the ICOC for years and they teach that you have to be a disciple and do the works to be saved, no if's, no but's. Yet the bible says... Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
"If you confess with your mouth" written to people who were already saved? Thats complete and utter nonsense. To believe such a twisted interpretation of the scripture is exactly the point hes proving in the video. Theres no logic to what you're saying. Why would Paul tell someone whos already saved, that if they do this they'll be saved. It makes absolutely no sense because it isn't true.
When one receives the Ruach, that is spiritual conception, not rebirth. One can only be born of Ruach until given a new body and is birthed into the Kingdom of Elohim! In this life, after coming into covenant with Messiah, we are being DEVELOPED in the Ruach, like unto the nine months in the physical womb.
"we should follow up on people, we probably should spend a little extra time with some people, but the primary commandment here is preach the gospel, amen, and God will add those people to our church, and then we can teach them all things that Jesus commanded. Every Sunday we have different messages that are preached from the pulpit. We're learning new things week-to-week. We teach all things Jesus commanded [...] Go out and preach the gospel." timestamp = 33:47 to 34:19
The root word of discipline is "disciple" which comes from the Latin word "discipulus" meaning one who studies. A disciple is a learner. It's interesting that while you discredit discipleship, you somehow also approve of it. Knowing the origin of the word I think helps a bunch with context :) Especially because what you have described as what you should do is discipleship - well, as I understand it :) That aside, I love looking at root words from the original texts that were translated across the various translations of the Bible (KJV isn't the original Bible - it was only published around 1611 and the NIV around 1973). I have a feeling that you would really enjoy checking out root words when looking at different translations. It really helps me understand better :)
What I love about Paul is how in his letters, he both celebrates the godly characteristics of churches and also corrects them in how they can grow. I am sorry for your experiences. It sounds like you had a hard time. My prayer is that with your hurts (which I am sorry for) that you do not publically slander people or communities (James 3:17). But rather that you gently teach people to be better (2 Tim 2:22-26). May we be knitted in love, while extending the same love and grace that God so graciously gave to us so that we may, through Him, live in peace and unity, joint together through the Spirit (2 Cor 13:11; John 13:35, Eph 2).
The Greek word for seed is "σπέρμα" ("sperma") which obviously became the word Sperm. It is translated as both seed and descendants. Any first year Greek student can tell you that. Pick up a Greek Lexicon and do some research before condemning good translations without any real knowledge of Greek itself.
I agree! I think is absurd to claim that any translation of the bible is the "one true translation" when they are just that; translation from the original language that can tend to miss the nuances of the original text just due to the differences in language. A good Christian shouldn't be tied down to just one translation, but use different translation, especially the original text to get a better sense of the original intent of the scripture.
@@callummiechel9036 thank you for your reply. I am praying that my son will see that same hypocrisy in his dealings with them. He has been entangled with that cult for over six years now.
@Jeff H I was in for 16 years. I always “felt” something wasn’t right, but could never put my finger on it. I started working a second job getting ready for special contribution. The job was at a restaurant (when you work at restaurants at night, it takes a while to wind down). I started living a “secret” life going out with work friends after work. This allowed me to gradually move away from the church. I know leaving was the best thing to do, but everyday for 18 years I have felt guilty for leaving. funny thing is all my “friends” from church are no longer me friends. I have been away for longer than I was in and still think about it and have scars from allowing them to make so many decisions for me...they chose who I dated and didn’t date, jobs I worked and didn’t, people I would live with, cars I could buy, vacations I could go on, and so many other things).
I was raised to be and was a devoted christian when I was baptized into the Los Angeles ICOC right before I turned 29 y.o. I remained a "sold out" member for six years in the 90s doing everything I had vowed to do when they put me thru their "counting the cost" study. I left after six years of abuse.. Today I'm an atheist. Probably because my commitment was to following Jesus and not the their church movement or leaders. Unfortunately, the ICOC leadership doesn't see everything like I once believed god did. If they did they could have kept much more accurate STATS on me and spoken more benevolently and beneficially of me at their leaders meetings. Videos like this one and virtually all the comments below from christians reinforce my decision to no longer "believe". There is no evidence for the existence of any god or gods. No one should claim to be so certain of the truth of something you cannot demonstrate to be true. That way of thinking is toxic all by itself. This is what you get " on faith". The ICOC is an evangelical protestant bible-based christian church movement... with toxic dogma for their doctrine and a perfectly abusive leadership to perpetuate it. If they're a "cult" then so is all of Christendom. God, in all his LOVE and omniscience, could have come up with a religion that isn't infested with religious psychopaths. If you HAVE to believe, make this your favorite bible verse: 1 John 2:27 And learn that there is NO SIN for those who believe: Romans 8:1-2, 2 Cor. 5:21 If you DO still believe in god's anything but fool-proof plan of salvation, maybe you didn't stay long enough, or get hurt deeply enough. DOUBT is what gets you an EDUCATION.
You keep coming back to this video and making comments. How many times have you watched the video? Your first comment was nearly one year ago. Believers still sin in the flesh until they die. Once saved, always saved.
I explain in the sermon what it meant to be a disciple in the time of Christ versus being a disciple today. There is a literal application as well as a spiritual application. Jesus had more than 12 disciples (although the majority of the gospels are focused on the twelve that he handpicked).
Nice video, very true. The problem with this 'church' is that they don't believe in John 3:16--and instead add their stupid works which amounts to nothing.
If water baptism is not required why then did Peter in Acts 10:44-47 say why should these (gentiles) not be baptised with water...throughout the foundation of the church the apostles water baptised all those they taught and this was after Christs ascension...also why does Matt 28: 18-20 requires us to baptise people in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit...why also did the eunuch who stated there is water what should stop me form being baptised...you can see throughout Acts where the disciples or apostles baptised people in water to receive the holy spirit. Philip also went to Samaria and baptised the Samaritans in water...In Acts 2 where you mentioned the Jews also got baptised ...you have failed to explain what baptised in Mark and Acts said...you then said we should be baptised it is a good thing and is important, thus contradicting yourself...In the bible there are examples where the holy spirit was received not at the point of baptism not only in Acts 10 but also when the Samaritans got baptised as Peter and John had to go to the Samaritans to touch them (laying of hands) so they can receive the holy spirit Acts 7:14-15... Baptism is required for salvation, Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, male nor female...1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Here explains the purpose of water baptism. This connects us to the death and ressurrection of Christ..All apostles and disciples were baptised...you see in Acts 9:18 how Saul conversion lead him to baptism by Ananias the disciple. If baptism was not necessary once the new covenant started why then would the apostles continue to baptise people in water? The scriptures you highlighted regarding Paul and belief he was addressing believers who were already baptised as Galatians 3:27 shows. Remember the letters or Epistles of Paul are to already established churches (corinth, Ephesus, Roman...) these were already baptised believers in the faith. Things I agree with you on Some things I agree with you on regarding the ICC doctrine is that they think themself to be the only true worshippers and a lot of their teachings seem to be based on works rather than on faith through Christ Jesus. However, not all their doctrine is wrong but some is or may be incorrectly interpreted. There practices are also worrisome in that you are required to confess your sins to your discipler, they tell you what to do you are also encouraged to imitate them...mind you, James 5:16 states we should confess our faults to each other and that the prayer of a righteous person is helpful, so in some sense I agree to this practice. The bible also teaches we should imitate that which is good and not evil just as how Paul advised the church should imitate him as he imitates Christ...so where I fault them on this practise regarding the discplership relationship is that the disciplee must be mindful or careful of their discipler and test the spirits..it is easy for you in imitating this person to end up worshipping them and this steers you away from Christ...Also, for a discipler to tell you what you must do is quite dangerous if it is from themself and not of the spirit of God. God gave his spirit (believers or saved) and it is his spirit that renews and guides us to all truth...we do not always have to rely on another person but because their will be people of different levels of faith and understanding, a weaker person in the faith can seek help form a stronger person or should one fall to sin the other person helps them to tun away from it through praying together. I think this is what James is expressing when we should confess our faults to each other cause we sometimes need help and encouragement. I admit I really struggled with the discipleship study and still find it somewhat confusing. However, I think I understand the concept of discipleship at that time as these people literally followed Jesus to learn form him. My query and worry is about how the ICC strongly and quickly have their newly baprtised disciples go out to evangelise when it took a few years for Jesus's disciple to be ready to teach others. Not only that they had to receive that power from the holy spirit. I also realised a pattern in the new testament where specific individuals were sent out to spread the gospel to the nations rather than all the followers...In our own way each Christian spread the gospel and can be done through our way of life and sharing our testimony or faith with others..However, the ICC is strict and very prescriptive on how we should all spread the gospel through teaching the studies they train us to teach..I do not fully agree with this and think it to be dangerous...James 3:1 states be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation...Hence, if we quickly jump into teaching people yet being immature or having little knowledge in the scriptures we risk teaching the wrong things and thence condemning ourselves... I do not take it lightly teaching the gospel to others when I myself am lacking...I am willing to share what I know and understand within my current scope but to be told to teach on topics where I know I am lacking and to follow the prescribed teaching I feel is wrong...it is the spirit that will enable us to teach others not what someone specifically tells me to teach though it is helpful as we must learn from others before we know and understand the word but teaching it is a different art in itself...I may learn and understand something but lack the ability to teach it to someone else.
Baptism is a good work and it is the first step of obedience for a child of God but it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul (which is by faith in Jesus Christ our Lord). I explain this in the sermon and there is no contradiction with the scriptures. Salvation (the gift of eternal life) is received before water baptism.
Yeah I stopped right there when he said baptism isn’t required. Countless versus calling gentiles to believe, repent, baptize, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Hello Callum Miechel! (and consequently anyone who may read this) For your third point when you are breaking down Acts 2:38, I want to strengthen your argument by pointing out that in that chapter and in the preceding verses to verse 38, we see who Peter is talking to. Verses 5, 11, 14, 22, 29, 36 show us Peter is talking to a Jewish audience only, and as you rightly pointed out Acts 10 is when the Gospel is taken to the Gentiles. Also we see Peter talking to the Council in Jerusalem in Acts 15:7-11, the Council that met to decide what exactly what to do with the Gentile converts into Christianity: "7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." The language here clearly mirrors the Ephesians 1:13 that you quoted. To add to your points in Acts 8:36, the significance of the Eunuch's conversion lies in the fact that the Eunuch was castrated and although he had come to faith in God and was a convert to Judaism, according to the Mosaic Law, he was unable to enjoy full conversion rights according to Deuteronomy 23:1 which reads: "1He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD." The Spirit taking Phillip to the Eunuch confirms his conversion into christianity with full membership, no longer does the Mosaic Law hinder the Eunuch's relationship with God, the sacrifice of Jesus has brought even him near. In the same way that the sacrifice of Jesus has brought us near to him as well. Also I had a good laugh about your comment regarding the Eunuch, that he wasn't discipled for 10 days lol You are also 100% correct when making the difference between baptism and the Gospel according to 1 Corinthians 1:17. I would add that in that same book in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul gives us the most beautiful and concise presentation of the Gospel: "1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" We see from verses 1-2 that this Gospel is the one that Paul preached, is the one we received, is the one wherein we stand and lastly by which we are saved if we have not believed in vain. Clearly in Paul's mind the Gospel is a different thing entirely from baptism and the Gospel is completely self sufficient in saving us, of course due to the work of Jesus Christ on the cross on our behalf. If baptism was a necessity it would be included here but its not. Cheers!!
I was a member of the ICoC for 10 years. It was definitely top down, but Callum does not understand it well. It was an orthodox church (in the 4 churches that I was a part of). We were not taught that you lose your salvation the moment you quit doing the works. We are saved by faith, through grace. Accepting the gift, not earning it. I understand the point Callum is trying to make and believe many of his criticisms are valid in some places. There were many hurt by the church imposed discipling that was top-down (his Amway illustration). It is far better to disciple based on our gratitude to Christ for our salvation and I'm still working out how best to get people fully committed without the legalism. Of course we don't eliminate all the sin in our lives. We are saved by grace for good works, not by them. I understand your take is based on your theology, but I believe that it is right to be fair in criticizing other Christians. Baptism is not the only point that you can receive salvation, but is the normative point of salvation. I'm not trusting in baptism for my salvation, but in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that I participate with in baptism according to Acts. 2, Rom. 6:3-4, Gal. 27 (clothed with Christ at baptism), Since you're stuck on KJV (I prefer NASB which is more accurate) 1 Peter 2:3:21 "...baptism now saves you - - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." We are saved by baptism, not through OUR work, but through God's work on the cross for us. Believe (on the Lord), confess (Jesus as Lord), repent, be baptized. Of course you need to believe (real faith - James 2), that is why faith is so emphasized. But, it's not just intellectual belief that Jesus is Lord ( James 2:19 "even the demons (KJV "devils") believe -- and shudder (KJV "tremble"). You may be correct about the NIV. But the Acts 8:37 verse is not in the ESV, or NASB either, because it is not in the early manuscripts. 1 Cor. 1: 17 "Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel... " in context he is focused on people who were being baptized into Apollos, etc. v15 so that no one can say that they were baptized into my name. I also have a strong hatred of preaching that is works based, but didn't get that where I was. I would appreciate any sources that show that was their view. I will stand with you if it is clear that it is works salvation. I am only saved by the grace of God, called to do good works, striving to more fully know the truth (Jn. 8:31-32). May we have the zeal, with knowledge, that God is calling us to. Not becoming luke warm in our faith, but truly preaching the gospel. May God bless you brother. I'm sorry for the way you were mistreated by the ICoC. I saw some abuse even in the better churches that I was part of and many people reject God after leaving as you said. There is still a considerable Us/Them mentality among the old school ICoC disciples and I miss them. But not enough to return to the now watered down, mainline nature of the ICoC, and certainly not to the legalism and Kip McKean focus of the ICC. I highly recommend reading "Across the Spectrum" which does not deal with baptisms importance, but does illustrate how we should deal with opposing views within orthodoxy. Not that ICoC is necessarily among it. If your take on salvation by works were accurate they would not be orthodox. But, I doubt that many even old school disciples believe that they are saved by their works. Ray Comfort and Living Waters outreach shows that most even "Christians" believe that they are good people and that their good outweighs their bad. Jesus is the only Way, the Truth, and the Life. Thanks for planting a stone in my shoe to consider about the ICoC of which I haven't been a member for over 20 years (just before some of the reforms after the Henry Kreite letter). I'll certainly take what you said to heart and study it (be a Berean). I spent over three years studying baptism after I left, and believe much of our differences in it depend on our perspective. Baptists (and other reformed/Calvinist denominations) look at it from the back side. About half if we assume they are saved - Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopals, etc. look at it from front (with varying understanding of baptism as an adult, by immersion). Most of the other denominations - Baptists, reformed, Calvinists, etc. Many Churches of Christ, Christian Church, etc. see it not as the only way to be saved or as a work (of man) at all, but as the point in time when you are saved (Gal. 3:27 "as many as have been baptized (real baptism not just dunked under water) have been clothed with Christ"), 1 Pet. 3:21 baptism (God's work) now saves you. Note: I don't speak for all (any) restoration churches as I am a member of a non-denominational church, but I have not seen any of them say that they are saved by works of any kind. I believe that it is a Straw Man argument to call baptism a work (of man). Is obedience a work? Is repentance? Faith without works is dead (James 2), but we are not saved by works (what Paul meant by works - not modern denominational theology). Again, I could be wrong. I am still learning after over 50 years of believing in Jesus, and 30 years of walking with Him (abiding in Him Jn. 8:31-f). May we all come to a full knowledge of the truth and seek Him with all of our hearts. Mt. 6:33, Jer. 29:11-13, Heb. 11:1-6, etc. I'd just urge you not to be quick to judge other Christians based on what you THINK they mean. Perhaps have the conversations with a few committed Christians from differing perspectives, before you demonstrate the same legalistic elitism that you hate about that cultlike ministry that we both came out of toward all whose understanding of baptism (along with the Early Church Fathers who apparently almost/fully unanimously believed that baptism was when you are saved normatively) you disagree with.
They used that scripture to drpping your family and following Jesus. very manipulative. IT affected me up to today. Mental torture. Jesus was only saying this let the disciples to forget the things of the world.
I love ICC they help me to love Jesus love the people of God and love the lost. They help me to repent from my sins(pornography, maturbation, #sexualimorality, drunkenness,) I believe our doctrine is base on the true context of the Biblical salvation.
Salvation is free but true believers CHANGE their lives and behavior. But ICOC Chicago was telling people where to live, whether they could go to college, all kinds of control over life decisions as if the members could not rely on the Holy Spirit to guide their lives. Resistance to control was labeled as prideful. Women were to be passive and men were above reproach.
The whole video is on point. I used to be a member and have friends in icoc who are still not assured of their salvation. It has to be mixed by works for them. This is the saddest part. I pray for my friends to wake up and leave. It is damaging and recovery can be very difficult. Ultimately the Grace of God is what helped me. Understanding the Gospel and the truth that sets free. Jesus and Jesus Christ alone saves.
When Jesus did it was it wierd too? When Jesus entered the the Temple and destroyed the money changers tables and stopped the buting and selling ... Told them youve turned the house of God into a den of theives.... Was that weird? It probably was to those that were doing it however it being "weird" didnt stop Jesus from being RIGHT! ☺️
Hey, so I'm a freshman at college and these guys (ICOC) reached out to be to baptized and join them. I accepted at first because if their conservative Christian views but after seeing some weird things about them online with other people's experience I got a little creeped out. What's your suggestion?
Run as far and as fast as you can in the opposite direction, but more important than that make sure you believe the right gospel. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rd9oIE5UXI8.html
@dan question them. Study the scriptures learn the context. If they don’t welcome questions, there’s your answer. Are the leaders loving? Do the practice what they preach? Are they patient? Kind?
Thanks for the advice guys I quit and so did another freshmen whom they made break up with his GF before joining. If I'd stayed longer this would've probably gotten ugly.
Glad you got out. They got me as a freshman in the 80s. I was a prisoner for 16 years before I had the courage to leave. Guilt is why I stayed and guilt for leaving has tortured me since leaving. That church messed me up. It was in Charlotte, NC.
Hello Noto. It has been a very long time! I often wondered where you ended up, how have you been? I was fond of some of the friendships that I had, it's a shame that the ICOC has false doctrine that sends people to hell. Unfortunately they will never change their false teaching on the gospel.
@@NotoriousAsher I don't use instagram. I have facebook with messenger. If you search for Callum Miechel you should find me, send me a friend request. Cindy and I now have 6 children and we live on the Sunny coast in QLD.
For anyone that took part in making this video and for anyone that agrees with this video I have much love for all of you but in agreeing with this video you are trying to listen to a doctrine that you’re “itching ears want to hear” 2 Timothy 4:3. To be saved you must give up everything for Jesus and you cannot simply believe in Jesus and what he did on the cross because “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.” James 2:19 believing in Jesus puts you on the same playing field as demons! For anyone who reads this message I appeal to you out of love and care for you. I genuinely understand that churches are ALL imperfect but preaching discipleship is the gospel and it is the exact same message we are called to obey today. Although things are not the same as in the first century we are still called to give up everything and put Jesus above everything even if it means leaving your own family. Callum I really hope you understand that you are leading people astray and simply no longer want to abide by the true standard of the Bible. I hope this message truly hits your heart for anyone who reads this ❤️ faith alone is a completely false doctrine “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
James Chapter 2 is not about salvation. It is written for believers to get off their backsides and do the works. Romans chapter 4 clearly demonstrates that salvation is by faith alone without works. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ThaaKidd A you have not yet received the free gift of eternal life.
Callum Miechel James is a book about obedience. And it shows that we cannot live on faith alone. The only time “faith alone” is mentioned in the Bible the word “not” is right before it. Love you Callum, I really hope that this message doesn’t insult you but instead softens your heart as you read these words, I appreciate your zeal however you are not preaching sound doctrine, I understand that this may feel like a hate comment but I’m not trying to hate you I’m trying to appeal to your conscience. If you want to talk privately my email is alanramossjsu@gmail.com I hope this message leads you to smile and soften your heart ❤️
Dear brother, I'm a member of ICOC in Brazil for my whole life. Sadly a huge part of what you said is true. Thanks God, in 2003 a Letter (we call The Letter) was written to all churches exposing several issues our church had arround the globe. The consequences were that thousands of people left church, hurt as some of the brothers and sisters commented here, and a deep transformation in our community. Thanks to God, there is a HUGE difference between what our church used to be (before 2003) and after it. Just to point some of those: - We dont believe anymore that only ICOC members are saved. We believe that God saved/saves people throughout history, wherever they are; - Kip Macken left church (around 2005) because many of his teachings, beliefs and methods were being questioned; thereat he founded ICC (International Christian Church); - We dont believe NIV is the only true translation - We do believe that "we are saved only by grace, but never by a faith that remains alone, unaccompanied. True grace always results in transformed lives marked by holiness and justice." This sentence is by Timothy Keller, Presbyterian theologian, pastor and writter, on his book Center Church; - Many more... I'm sorrow that you preached all those things the way you did (saying several times "that's what they believe"), as if they were still truth. Many of the things you said are more than 15 years behind us. Thanks God he helped us to repent of those practices, and we are sure he will keep guiding us, as he does with all different denominations throughout history (including baptists). I would gently ask you for the next time to be more cautious with your assertments ['And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity (...)' Jm.3:6] and evaluate if -the pulpit- in a sunday service, in a 23th dec. is the right place to talk about these (important) things you talked. God bless you, the world and His Church arround the globe, throughout movements, languages and history.
With all due respect, they still preach a false gospel. Salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ + Nothing. Their religion is worthless because they do not rely on the shed blood of Jesus Christ to get them into heaven. They trust in faith + works for forgiveness of sins. You are sill lost Rombcgr.
Icoc is the same. Teaching water baptism saves and still uses First Principles to manipulate their recruits. They still decide whether you are a candidate for salvation they act like a walking holy spirit. They’re teaching is very shallow and most of the time focused on the great commission and denying oneself, counting the cost, obeying leaders/disciplers etc. Teaching half truth is still a lie. They still do not follow the bible and still not preaching the true Gospel.
Dear Rombcgr, I think what you are saying is not quite correct. I was in the ICOC in Australia for over 12 years, up to 5 years ago. I now all the leaders intimately. Sadly my son is still trapped in it. It is a religious cult that is founded on twisting scripture, manipulating and controlling its members, through all the typical practices followed by all the other cults out there. Just because you evangelise means nothing. The Pharisees evangelised and Jesus criticised them for it, because of their twisted ungodly teaching and practices. Every cult around evangelises, and most of them say exactly the same stuff as ICOC, they’re on a mission to save the world and claim they’re teaching the absolute truth too. And just because there may be lots of well intentioned nice people in the ICOC and they are your friends, doesn’t mean it’s not teaching a lie. Every cult has nice well intentioned people. That’s what cults prey on. Just like Scientology. They get you when you’re young, train you, convince you, get you on the team, then peer pressure does it’s thing to control you. Just like in the ICOC. I’m sure you feel the peer pressure and the judgement of others in your church. That’s one of the ICOC’s main control methods. The ICOC is nothing like the church Jesus came to establish. It’s more like the pharisaical system Jesus came to tear down. Jesus said “the truth will set you free” If the ICOC teaches the truth, why do nearly 90% of all members leave. And why do nearly everyone who leave have horrible stories, of emotional and spiritual abuse, control and manipulation whilst they were part of the church. Very, very few people in the ICOC are free (except the top dogs - leaders) The reality is what you are part of is a cult. My advice is get out while you can and find a church that that teaches the truth and is not about control and manipulation.
Well, if ICOC no longer believes only they are saved, then no one doesn't have to be a part of the ICOC no matter where they are in the world. And people can still come to Christ outside of the ICOC.
As it is written in Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who say's to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven". Does doing the will of the Father needs action? Judge for yourself if you are obeying the will of God or the will of men.
Here is the will of the Father: John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
So you can live a very sinful life and never repent and still be saved because his grace is free? Oh wait... James 2:19 King James Version 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
COC's doctrine puts Baptism in front of a relationship with Jesus... As a COC when did you recognize you loved Jesus? Or can you ONLY say the date you got baptized? When did you experience the love of Jesus? Or are you just religious through baptism to keep from going to hell? What about the Thief on the Cross?
Baptism is essential to salvation. Acts 2: 38. Repent and be baptized everyone of you for remission N of sins. Peter, speaking with the authority of the Holy Spirit said it and I believe it. All that was baptized that day Christ added to His church. No...I am not a member of the ICOC.
The thief on the cross believed on Christ and he is in heaven without water baptism. You misunderstand Acts 2:38. Water baptism is not part of the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. Should you be water baptized? Yes. Does it save your soul from hell? No.
Every church I’ve ever been apart of has had toxic elements and false beliefs. I mean, I didn’t get 10 mins into this video and this guy says the KJV is the “real Bible,” even though it’s an outdated version based on the Latin vulgate, and not the Hebrew and Greek. (But I do also frequent see the inaccuracies on the NIV. No one has to be stuck on one translation in 2021 lol). Bless his heart, we all just have to grow in humility and make space in our lives for fellowship with the Spirit. Look at the religious world on average. Christians/disciples are not living in God’s abundant favor (grace), which is meant to sanctify us so that we can *abound in every good work. That is incredibly encouraging view of God’s lordship over us and very challenging to my flesh/ego. In my experience, there has long been a legalistic strain with the ICOC. But teachings on grace are winning out big time; at least with me and my friends within the church.
The KJV is the only accurate translation in the English language. It has the words that the Holy Ghost teaches. All of the other English translations are a fraud and only exist because of the love of money. 1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-925sGklQtoI.html
Not everyone can become a disciple as our Lord Jesus said in Luke 14:25-33. If we really be honest and really listen carefully to what our Lord Jesus said? You might find out that almost all denominations are the one who is cult or Anti-Christ. If we will based it according to what Jesus said. Even on 1John 2:6. In our normal human point of view, it is very hard and extreme to be like Jesus. That is why there are thousands of different denominations with all different own beliefs/interpretations.( 2 Tim 4:3)
Doctrinal differences don't make one protestant movement a cult and the accusing movement not a cult. If the tenets of your christian religion aren't biblical, and they aren't, the entire religion is a cult...with Jesus being the charismatic leader (and left alone to mix the Funny Face). Since in this video it's you Baptists pointing the accusing finger, you need also to decide if Jesus is Lord, or just another fraudulent "scatterer" like EVERYONE who claims His Name.
A lot can lost in translation through posts. But If you’re interested in talking over the phone please let me know. I would be more than happy to talk about this and invite the Holy Spirit into our conversation. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus, in baptism. Taking Scriptures like John 3:16 or Ephesians 2:9 out of context distorts the full message of salvation. Comparing what the ICOC believes with the Jews who were trying to compel the Gentile believers to be circumcised to be saved is a misinterpretation of what Paul said in Colossians 2. Paul was NOT comparing baptism to circumcision in that passage. In fact, if you read it carefully he is talking about 2 types of circumcision. The physical circumcision done by man, and the spiritual circumcision done by Christ. And was reminding them of WHEN their hearts were circumcised by Christ…when they were baptized. That is when we were circumcised by Christ. Just as God healed Naaman AFTER he went into the water, not before, God heals us when we go into the water. Believing we are saved when we are baptized does not remove faith from our salvation. On the contrary, it is an act of faith. Faith in God’s unchanging word…”Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”. The 3000 were putting their faith completely in Jesus when they got baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. They knew it was the power of God who would regenerate them, not their own works. When I was baptized and came out of the water I felt the Spirit inside me for the first time. I felt joy and peace that I hadn’t felt since I was a little child. I was born again when I was baptized and I am convinced that is when I received the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of my sins.
Hi, just a question, do you believe some people in the ICOC/ICC who do believe the true gospel, that we are saved through grace, through faith are saved? As some people I have met from these groups say they 100% believe that and when asked about baptism they say that our faith leads to our repentance and then we are baptised, which connects us to the cross through the grace of God.
If they are not trusting in their baptism and their works as proof of salvation and they are only trusting that Christ alone saves them, then they are saved.
1 Timothy 4:16 New International Version (NIV) 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. Not all you say are true! You may want to get your facts straight. A Church collectively are full of sinners including me and you. What's important is that you have a community of God helping each other to be more Christ like and be in Heaven with God someday.
Firstly you need to be using the real word of God for the English language, not the phony NIV. The verse you quoted in 1 Timothy is not a verse about the salvation of the soul, when it comes to the salvation of the soul we do not save ourselves (that part is done by Jesus Christ when we place our faith in him, read verse 10 of the same chapter). The word 'trust' is synonymous with the words belief/believe & faith. 1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. If you think that you can somehow lose the salvation that the Lord has provided (which is the gift of eternal life) then you are still unsaved. Eternal means without end.
I would like to use your video for research for a novel, but on checking the N. I. V. against K. J. V. for Gal. 3:16, I find this: '16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.' K. J. V. has: 'Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.' Apart from the fact that K. J. V. is undoubtedly more majestic, inspiring, and elegant, I cannot see a difference. Is there more than one edition of N. I. V., perhaps? Have you any comment you care to make?
You are correct. I think you misunderstood me in my sermon (maybe go and listen again?). It does say seed (meaning singular) in Galatians 3:16. But it does not say this in Genesis (in the NIV) when God makes the promise to Abraham. It is inconsistent in the NIV. The KJV uses the word 'seed' in Genesis which corresponds with the doctrine formulated by the Apostle Paul in Galatians. The NIV contradicts itself.
With respect, some of that you are right bro. God allows and God had disciplined ICC. God loves all churches who want to do God’s will. We need each other to encourage to allow Jesus to be our true teacher through His spirit of true. Thank you for sharing and lets keep praying for each other to please God by being an example of Jesus.
Geo ; spare me please the International Church Christ is a Cult. They think their the only Church. And physical baptism is the only way to wipe your sins away.
Okay so this guy keeps saying ‘they’ like this is how everybody thinks. I was raised in the church in Harare and I’m literally hearing about some of this stuff for the first time😂
I used to go the the international Chuch of Christ, Left 18 years ago, no because the church, because my sin, I’m glad than was there and learned so much for years than I was there, I had been back serving the lord for about 5 years not at the same church, all I can said, who ever does not gathers, scatters, with all my respect I think in your preaching or teaching in this case, you need more wisdom, I feel you want to preach a feel good sermon vs how can I get santificación to get closer to God, listen to you and ask God if this is what God wants, all I can said search your heart. You trying to do the work of Holy Spirit by said they are not save, please my brother search your heart, every word than comes out our mouth will judge on the last day,, God had mercy in all of us,
The 1611 A.V KJV version bible is not the only inspired word of God. If you believe the KJV and the Textus Receptus are the ONLY infallible translations of God's word(and they constantly differ)Please educate yourself on the Greek manuscripts, transliteration, translation, and not going off what you've been told. Anyone who believes the Textus Receptus to be infallible must believe that Erasmus, and the other men who later edited the same text in their own editions(Stephanus and Beza) were somehow inspired or at the very least "providential guided" In their work. Yet NONE of these men ever claimed such inspiration. Erasmus himself would refute the idea of KJVonlyism. Find out how we got the Bible we have today. Please read The King James Only Controversy by James White, I hope you find truth.
