The Intriguing Portrayal of Mary's Birth and Life in the Proto-Gospel of James 

I feel like the Orthodox church frequently gets ignored or glossed over in these discussions, even when it would be very relevant. In past episodes I have been surprised that they don’t get a nod when the Didache comes up, for instance. Modern Orthodox fasting practice is taken straight from the Didache. It is part of their active tradition… but they don’t even get acknowledged. You guys acknowledged the Catholics and their relationship with Mary, but the Orthodox should have gotten a huge shoutout in this episode! Although they don’t have this book in their canon, it plays a big role to this day in the lives of Orthodox Christians in a way it doesn’t for any other group, including important feasts of the church. For instance, they celebrate her entrance into the temple and teach the story of her entering the temple at age 3 and being given to Jospeh at 12 as doctrine. In addition, the Orthodox church accepts the old man Jospeh and step brothers of Jesus, which is straight from this text. They have no problem referencing James the Brother of the Lord and it doesn’t create any kind of theological difficulty for them.

“Christmas According To James” would make an epic holiday film

I shouldn’t be surprised , but have always found Dr. Ehrmans’s scholarly colleagues to be not only very knowledgeable about the subject matter but also very skilled at presenting the info in a both interesting and clearly understandable way. The students of these teachers are very fortunate .

Wow. I'm so early to the podcast that Paul is still persecuting the Christians

When was the proto gospel of James written? I grew up protestant, where no one talks about the apocrypha. Now I've deconverted, I love hearing about all these writings I don't know anything about. What a fascinating episode! Would love to hear more about other apocrypha.

Joseph was in the shop working on big contracts and dealing with supply and labor shortages. Especially after Jesus stopped straightening boards, clearing knots and correcting saw cuts. Haven’t you scholars ever worked in a wood-shop?

As a student in art history, especially Medieval art, I learned about these stories from the Golden Legend by Jacobus de Voragine. I did not realize his stories were derived from aprocryphal gospels.

The early church fathers were like Star Wars fans that make up explanations to make the Star Wars universe fit together.😂

Wait... in order for Jesus not to get sin-nature from Mary, Mary had to be without sin-nature, so to avoid her having sin-nature, God just did a miracle? Why couldn't he have done the miracle to prevent Jesus from getting it, if he can do that miracle? Such logic! :)

Joseph was a rolling stone. Wherever he laid his hat is home. And when he died, all he left us was alone. And Mary, some bad talk goin' round town sayin' that Joseph had four outside children.

Bart great podcast . Chris awesome work, great content and superb presentation

As a former Roman Catholic, it's amazing to see how much of our faith comes from oral and apocryphal traditions, the story of Mary's parents being unable to have children, including their names, is somewhat common knowledge for people interested in their faith more than the average believer. It makes sense of course, as the Church itself is older than the Bible as we know it, which applies to most other pre-reformation Churches as well, afaik. Hence the non-reliance on the Scripture that protestants find either weird or outright blasphemous, depending on denomination. To illustrate the catholic understanding, I'd paraphrase Jesus in the gospels: Bible was made for man, not man for the Bible :) PS For my confirmation (one of the sacraments in the catholic rites, a kind of second baptism) I chose the name (we get a new one we never use, it's symbolic or something) Joachim, after the very Saint father of Mary. Unfortunately my choice didn't have much depth behind it, I just liked the name and found him being the patron saint of bedsheet sellers funny (I think it's listed as linen traders in English sources though).

Recieving the notification by 12:30 AM here.

Joseph did pop up 12 years later in the teaching in the temple scene. Can't be THAT old. Not being around 30 years later isn't too surprising with life spans. He could be in his 50s by then & could easily have died by then. Actually, Mary still being around (especially if she actually gave birth to multiple children) was somewhat lucky.

Such a great discussion. The guest eloquently tells a compelling tale. The story is very touching, realistic in the behavior of Joseph. This story is a redress, then, of Joseph's absence in the canonical Gospels.

😂😂😂 Her hand caught on fire! 😂😂😂

O what a tangled web we weave when we practice to ……. excuse our own foolishness. If you start saying that Jesus was God you then have to concoct a backstory that explains how he came to earth. Add to this the preoccupation with sex as being sinful, notions of what is holy and unholy, pure and impure you then have to spin a yarn that wraps around all of these elements. This yarn is stretched beyond all credibility.

Wow what a story , being an ex catholic I never heard about the flaming vagina. Very creative imagination. Where did they come up with this concept? Great insight and interview nonetheless

What song is playing during the intro? It's a beautiful musical piece on the violin. I love discussions about non-canonical Christian writings!

Thanks, Chris and Bart. A most Merry Christmas to you both and to Megan and Josh and your team as well. Always look forward to these episodes - a highlight of my week and always educational and appreciated!

Great conversation, thanks!!

The Catholic issue is that they can't handle the thought of Mary having sex (the horror! 😮) because sex is regarded as shameful. Because of a problem accepting human sexuality, we have a plethora of problematic issues.

Thank you for the presentation and the discussion. I find it fascinating how much the birth of a child is under social control. On the one hand, of course, this is obvious, but on the other hand it is also significant. Your presentation makes this all the clearer.

Dr. Ehrman I bought and read your book Jesus Interrupted after hearing you interviewed on Coasttocoastam by Ian Punnet. I heard that Ian passed away yesterday.

I read this book a year ago and it seemed Joseph was supposed to be just a guardian to Mary and not really a husband. Dude didn’t even want to take Mary to his house as he thought he was too old and people might even laugh at him being seen with Mary.

So with the Salome incident was God giving a not so subtle warning about messing around with Mary's plumbing?

Excellent conversation! Interesting how this non-canonical story still informs the teachings of the Catholic Church. And I love that the Holy Family had problems too. Who knew?!😅

Why would there have been anything written about Mary before her being the mother of Christ as she would have been totally unknown?

Such a beautiful story of a 12-yr child married off to an asexual old geezer, only to be coerced into pregnancy by a powerful being and abandoned. Wouldn't you wish that to happen to your daughter, too?

Thank you, gentleman.

So funny James proto gospel's take on the birth of Jesus.

Thank you.

Riding on donkey for days couldn’t have helped with that Hyman.

It does sound like fanfiction; someone wondering how something would be & the issues the people involved would face.

Having been raised a Catholic, I am familiar with the stories that Dr. Frilingos has recited from this proto gospel. So it seems to me that the Catholic Church was aware of this and promoterd the stories of Mary's relationships with family prior to the birth of Jesus. It makes more sense to me now.

Anna Mary"s Mother Knew and Zach aryah

Did they discuss when these proto-gospels were written?

There was a question about virginity that I had to learn at age 9 :"Is Maria altijd maagd gebleven? Ja, na Jezus geboorte is Maria altijd maagd gebleven." In between important matters, "can we see God? ". After those years Catholic indoctrination worked, I remember the questions and answers literally learned in the year 1956.

Just looked at a number of pictures of German nativity scenes ("Krippenszene"). I could be mistaken, but my impression was that Joseph was a young man in each and every one, and that's what I remember was always my impression. I've only ever heard of old Joseph from Americans. "This is uncomfortable to talk about"? Why?

Many might be confused by "Immaculate Conception" especially when you are talking about "sin nature" rather than "original sin". The immaculate conception means that Mary did not have original sin, or as is articulated here... "sin nature from sperm".

Oh! Ha ha! This is only 3 hours old! I've only been watching your stuff from longer ago.

That saints never had sex isn't true. Look at Saint Augustine of Hippo : he had a son by his mistress when he was barely 19 years old.

What a story..

Immaculate Conception is so redundant when the Virginal Birth would in itself be a disruption of original sin, since there is no association with any male seed nor with Mary's birth canal

It's kind of a side-note to the main conversation, but I find it interesting that the narrative of the actual birth takes elements from both Matthew and Luke, but also contradicts them both - like the giving birth in a cave part. Trying to harmonize the two by taking things from both makes sense, but it's odd to add new conflicting elements that late. What does that say about how the stories were still developing?

Angels fed Mary while she was in the Temple according to that Gospel.

So… the Proto James thing is Mary fan-fic. Cool. 😂

I desperately want to see a conversation between Dr Ehrman and Rabbi Tovia Singer

Since these gospels were rejected as canon, why did Catholics take them so seriously as to develop theologies around them?

I know there's a brevity aspect to these episodes, but I still wish for deeper analysis of some topics. For instance, the brilliant light that came from the cave when Jesus was born led to the Catholic phrasing of his birth "like a light through glass", that this birth detail neatly addresses the Curse of Eve that due to original sin women will have a painful childbirth yet Mary didn't, that the first midwife heralded Jesus' birth as the salvation of Israel before even entering the cave (quite the ham-fisted literary device), or that the story slips between first and third person at will.

Excellent video! Very informative.

How many actual original archaeological pieces of scrolls do we have that the so called proto gospel words can be dated to post 100ad? How many of them are contiguous?

Do we have any other ancient or pre-modern account of a virginity test like the one that happens in this text? My guess is that it is not going to be commonly discussed in texts because it entails women's history, but may have been fairly common, but I can't really find anything on it. Just seems like a crazy practice to me, which is one of the reasons why I assume it was more common rather than less common.

Yahoshua and She Are Twin Souls from Creation

Why on earth did this book not make it into the Canon?

Christopher Frilingos made reference to similar Greek or Roman stories from about the same time period, but I didn't hear an approximate date mentioned. Whoever this "James" is it sounds like he had access to "Mathew" and "Luke", so would this have likely been written 2, 3, or 4 generations after the events described in the canonical gospels?

I missed the video on the book of Jesus childhood. I'm going to go back and watch it now to see how a child born without original sin spends his time.

So you guys go through all this and don't explain what "the ordeal" was?

Mary was born of a Virgin as well

Fascinating. Really enjoyed this. A little creepy, though, how much sexual activity is pried into by the religious authorities. I like the realism, though, how at first Joseph is like, “Yeah, nice try Mary, but I don’t think so.”

In Catholic, Mary is all about "Sistine Madonna" by Raphael. Mary is Holy Ark.

1+1+1= 3 early church fathers sucked in math 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Where did the idea that sex is sinful and virginity is holy originate? If god designed the human body and all life (almost) to have sex, then why is it sinful?

I have a couple questions for Dr. Ehrman and maybe he would like to answer one or both of them on a future video if he hasn't already. 1) Did the ark of the covenant actually exist. What would it have been able to do? Certainly not create manna. Certainly not have powers or allow communication with a god. But it is apparently mentioned for decades or centuries before it was lost. What's the deal with that? 2) What main characters of Jesus gang had children? Jesus apparently didn't have any. Mary Magdalen didn't either. What about any of the apostles? The fact that none of the people around him had children does tend to lead to the conclusion that it is all made up because otherwise, there would have to be descendants of one of the apostles and that lineage might last to this very day. It's easier to say there were none. I never hear anything about someone whose great ancestor was a disciple of Jesus. Doesn't that seem odd?

Im getting a hint that the reasons some of these books were left out of the bible was because they were too ahead of their time.

Why is Jesus’ mother Mary not documented as a witness to the resurrection of Jesus in the Bible? Either she did not confirm the person claiming to be her resurrected son was indeed her son or she never saw her allegedly resurrected son or the writers just ignored her experience post-resurrection or some other reason? I’ve never even thought about it until now, but it seems a glaring omission that Jesus’ mother Mary’s story ends at the foot of the cross and she doesn’t confirm or deny the alleged resurrection of her son in any way.

So the authorities believed Josephs story considering that what Mary did was a crime.

When and Where was this written (supposedly)?? I am pretty sure that it’s Not from the collection of « Dead Sea scrolls » nor from Nag Hammadi ? Was this discussed and I missed it ?

Joseph must've received an offer ($) he couldn't refuse or he was utterly gullible.

Who has done it?

Do we know when this Gospel was written?

The problem with the Perpetual Virginity of Mary doctrine is not in regard to Jesus' brothers and sisters but in Jesus Himself. A woman cannot give birth to a flesh and blood baby without that baby passing through her birth canal. This action would completely destroy Mary's hymen and thereby, her virginity. So to teach that Mary was a virgin perpetually, we need to turn the baby Jesus into a spirit-being, which is exactly what the Infancy Gospel of James does. The doctrinal prblem with this, however, is the Apostle John who said that anyone who teaches that Jesus did not "come in the flesh" is an antichrist. The Infancy Gospel of James teaches that Jesus came as a spirit and is, therefore, heretical. The Catholic Church has held this doctrine since her inception (around 350ish A.D.). So, for nearly 2000 years, this organization, which calls itself Christian is, according to the apostles of the first century, not Christian but rather antiChristian. The Catholic Church is an antichrist organization, according to John the Apostle.

Extremely interesting. This comment is totally off the topic of Mary and her status as a woman/icon. Dr. Frilingos states the commonly held belief that John the Baptizer was the cousin (what ever that term may mean) of Jesus. Other than some prophetic language in the Lucan infancy narrative, which could apply to any person living out a life of faith what is the thread linking the son of Zachariah and Elizabeth with the person of John the Baptizer? Could it be only “extra-biblical” tradition (institutional context)?

When are we going to see a movie on the Proto-Gospel of James? That would make a fun Christmas story!

Even if Joseph was 20 when Jesus was born he'd be 50 when Jesys is 30 and the life expectancy during that era was like 45. So Joseph not being present during the adult portion of Jesus' life in the gospels isn't really evidence towards him being old when Jesus was born

Too many permutation and other probabilities to make a rational decision, only subjectively outcome.

Incredible to me that adults today will admit to believing any of this childish nonsense. No less incredible than Santa Claus.

Hail Mary!

👌

Whoever this woman was (if she ever existed) she is dead and gone forever. My devout Catholic mother loved the story of Mary the Mother of God and prayed to her every day. Imagine praying to a description in a book written long ago by an unknown person.

I don't want to sound superficial but Christopher really needs to lift his spectacles game ;)

If Mary remained a virgin after giving birth to Jesus, wouldn't that suggest that he didn't have a bodily birth and therefore was not human but completely divine? Maybe this was why the proto-gospel didn't make it into the canon.

So much the canon Bible does not reveal. Hints of a possibility but no real history. Why is Mary so glorified by Catholics but it is not in their Bible. She has become an idol in the Catholic Church. She sits higher than Jesus.

Of course joesph is older you think a teen not sleeping with his wife that aint going to be beleaved

It’s so weird how the is such a big preoccupation with womens’ genitals in the old texts 😂 Of course it all has to do with hierarchy of humanity in the ancient times and the whole understanding of women as second class citizens, and the oppression and ownership of women by the men in their life. The imagined concept of physical “virginity” is just a result of the power imbalance and methods of control. Even as the whole hymen business is pretty ridiculous with modern understanding of basic biology 😅 Like one’s mouth would remain permanently broken after eating big hamburger. And yet, so much of the old story still hangs on that notion!

We know that the original Hebrew Gospel of Matthew didn't even have a birth narrative , let alone a virgin birth and we know that The Ebionites taught that Yeshua didn't become The SON of Yeh Ho VaH until His baptism , so I say that this work was tampered with by the Roman church

If Joseph was just the 'caretaker' of Maria, why is he mentioned at all?

Why would Joseph and Mary have to undergo an ordeal to prove virginity when it would have been perfectly legal for Joseph to have sex with his child wife?

It’s quite scary how ignorant the ancients were about anatomy. Bear in mind, everybody believed all this sh!t until a century ago.

Amazing how so many people try to make sense of BS by applying more BS. LOLOLOL

Three things stand out to me. One Jesus is either the eldest child with younger siblings or the youngest child with elder half-siblings. Imagine how birth other might have contributed to Jesus’ development. If Jesus has step siblings, the story is a model for blended families. Joseph, as step father, seems to be a devote father whether his DNA is involved or not. What an amazing role model for today’s men.

No matter how Mary got pregnant she had a form of sex. So explain what really happened, oh you cannot.

Hi Bart, You have reached halfway through y not complete the other half. . Y don't u do with quran what u did with bible? It's like the last piece of a puzzle.

On the sin nature and St. Augustine. Augustine converted from Manichaeism. Mani adopted certain buddhist notions "Mani taught how the soul of the righteous returns to Paradise whereas "the soul of the person who persisted in things of the flesh - fornication, procreation, possessions, cultivation, harvesting, eating of meat, drinking of wine - is condemned to rebirth in a succession of bodies." - wikipedia.

what if: mary stayed in the temple as a temple virgin until she was of age.(12?) why couldn't one of the high priests covered her and got her pregnant because in some cults the temple vestal virgins serviced the high priests. then when jesus was teaching at the temple for his bar mitzvah, he says, didn't you know i must be about my father's business? meaning he may have known one of the high priests may well have been his sperm donor. if she stayed that long in the temple, she herself was probably well educated, and literate and could have made sure jesus could read and understand the torah. just conjecture

Issa Jesus Immanuel had no male Chromosomes , ck. Shroud of Turin , Blood still red

In the chronology of events, which comes ? (1) Mat.28.1 ¶In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. (2) Jhn.20.1 ¶The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. Let's zoom in (1) Mat.28.1...as it began to dawn... (2) Jhn.20.1...when it was yet dark... I'am confident that a 10y.o knows that "when it was yet dark ", comes before "as it began to dawn." Jhn.20.1-2 Paraphrased. Mary Magdalene arrives at the tomb when it is dark, and the tomb is empty, she hasn't seen any angels or a resurrected Measiah. Iam positive that you need a body in the tomb at sunrise to have a Easter Sunday Sunrise Resurrection. Mat.12.40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Mat.16.21¶From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Three days, three nights, raised on the third day. Very specific, only works one way. Jhn.12.1¶Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2There they made him a supper; Exo.12.1¶And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. When it is dark, begins the 15th, Passover. The first meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is the Passover meal (sedar) The 10th-14th are "preparation days" The 10th-15th is six days. Let's subtract six days from the 15th day of the month. Brings us to the 9th day of the month. He travels from Bethpage to Bethany (other three Gospels) and they prepare for him a supper. He travels, they prepare supper. This is not a Sabbath day, this is Friday the 9th, that evening begins the weekly Sabbath the 10th, they have a Sabbath night supper. Because Saturday is the Sabbath, the 10th, he rides into town on Sunday the 11th. Wednesday is the 14th, the day Israel sacrificed the Passover Lamb of God, Saturday is the 17th, He comes out of the tomb just before sundown on the weekly Sabbath, the third day. Mat.27.52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Aka 24 elders) These are the (G536first fruits) can be the offering or the one presenting the offering. The reader has to decide. Lev.23.9¶And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. In this scenario Messiah is the High Priest. Messiah was resurrected just before sundown on the weekly Sabbath the 17th, the First Born from the dead. The first fruits were resurrected by the Messiah after sundown "the morrow after the sabbath", Sunday the 18th. Do you know what I can not find in Scripture anywhere ? The first Sunday after the first fullmoon after the spring equinox Second Witness Luke.24.21 b 21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and (b) beside all this, to day is the third day SINCE these things were done. G575 SINCE, transliterated apo, to separate, especially in composition. Literally separate the first day of the week from the day of crucifixion with three days , makes Sunday the fourth day and Wednesday the day of crucifixion Good Works Eph.2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. What are these "good works" that God had before ordained, that we should walk in them? Let's do a quick word study on the word "WALK" Exodus 18:20 KJV - And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must WALK, and the work that they must do. Leviticus 18:3 KJV - After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye WALK in their ordinances. Leviticus 18:4 KJV - Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to WALK therein: I am the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 5:33 KJV - Ye shall WALK in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess. Deuteronomy 8:6 KJV - Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to WALK in his ways, and to fear him. Leviticus 20:23 KJV - And ye shall not WALK in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. Deuteronomy 13:4 KJV - Ye shall WALK after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Deuteronomy 19:9 KJV - If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to WALK ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three: Deuteronomy 10:12 KJV - And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to WALK in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, Deuteronomy 26:17 KJV - Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to WALK in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice: Deuteronomy 29:19 KJV - And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I WALK in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: Deuteronomy 28:9 KJV - The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and WALK in his ways. Deuteronomy 30.16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to WALK in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. This is only a partial list. Again, I believe a 10y.o could pick up on this . Do you know what's going on ? A Strong Delusion, brought on by the teaching of the traditions of men, as if they were the Word of God, and prefering the lie to the Truth. The Lie, the Council of Nicaea. The Truth, the Counsel of God, Gen-Rev. Anti-christ is also anti-Commandments of God, anti Feasts of the LORD. The same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, He who was, who is, and who is to come. Walk in His ways , you will be blessed when you come in, blessed when you go out.

*i remain a sealed vessel.* it is not really on topic, just. thought some people may be interested. _JC

Grifting the feeble minded. Telling lies for god😂

My main problem with these discussions is: none of this touches the heart of anyone. People struggle with hunger, diseases, wars.. people shoot each other, treat each other terribly. This here is just discussion for no reason, this doesn't create reconsiderations and changes of heart. This is empty in meaning.