Imo lee is not hard as people claim him to be. Am a lee main in T.G rank and i think hiehachi is harder to win with in those rank based on my experience and knowledge about the game. Lee is incredibly strong character.
@@whatwhy6349 I just wish I was better at timing his 1,3,3,3 string because it’s super satisfying to punish with but I rarely have the confidence to go for it in real matches
@@whatwhy6349 agreed, he is definitely strong, like top 15 strong but not top 10 imo. I main Lee and Hei weirdly enough, I would say in beginner and intermediate Heihachi is definitely better but the higher you go the more fundamental the game becomes and at that level Lee is definitely better. I think when most people say he is hard they mean his execution and just frames, which is definitely a fair point imo lol
As a total casual who's committed to Lee, it definitely helps that even in defeat you're styling on people. I may not be good, but I feel cool as hell playing him.
Play lee's df1 frame by frame and you'll see at the start of the animation he's actually considered to be in crouch state. TBS points that out on a video a few months ago where they compare all generic df1. Lars' and Noctis' are the most evasive, Lei's has the most tracking to both sides, Fahk's and Leroy's has the best hitbox, but Lee's actually put him in a *crouching state* for a frame or two.
Father is great but check out FightingGM. Father is great with Lee and super entertaining and you can learn a lot from him but FightingGM's Lee is *excellent*
The issue with Lee is it's difficult to have good pressure with him especially at high levels where players are so good at anticipating moves and are good at defense. An opponent with solid defense and who turtles a lot is a nightmare for Lee.
Lee is one of my favorite non-Mishima characters, next to Dragunov and Hworang. Just wish i mastered him. Some of his mixups are great imo they're not that easy to read. Like his 4,3,4 can trick people into falling for his 4,3, down+4. And even if they choose to stay on the ground, his down+3 can do damage whilst creating some small distance and put him into Hitman stance.
He is a mishima by blood, he even got a mist step who go forward and not side step like Kaz. Its more like Kazumi because he can even go back with the mist step
I just hope the Devs at namco really give lee a chance to shine in Tekken 8. I feel both gameplay and storywise he isnt potrayed as the serious threat he is. Let's not forget Lee was handpicked by Heihachi himself to rival his son Kazuya. Though he lost I think the fact that he was chosen as the one to take care of Kazuya should speak volumes about just how strong and skilled he is. Remember Heihachi was a man that was damn nearly unkillable himself and never needed anybody to fight for him. So for him to take lee in and raise him to be a foe for his strongest rival (Kaz) then that says something about the man. I feel lee is top 5 storywise in fact I'd him place 4th right after Jin, Kazuya and Heihachi. It's just that his charm and carefree attitude in the game makes him seem harmless not that threatening at all. But all in all this man is nothing short of EXCELLENT!!
Lee is one of those characters along with Kazuya Bryan and Steve that I never get mad or frustrated if I lose to them cause I have massive respect for anyone who can commit to them
Lee sometimes struggles with inconsistency, his tools that are supposed to wallsplat like b1,1,2 or f2,1 don’t do that, even ff3. there are some issues with consistency during his combos as well. but he is definitely strong
Lee is def the coolest. You have to play with those keyboard keys on movement to cut down on execution strain. I can not play oscar with anything but the stick, it would take time to learn my cancels again. But def go with keys for certain characters, stick for most, and pad for others, like lil majin’s King. Biding top buttons on pad can help.
As a Lee main I agree that he was criminally underrated for a long time and would also put him around top 10. That being said, he can be so strong in certain matchups but he has flaws that pale him in comparison to "real" top tiers. He is really strong vs all Mishimas but absolutely crumbles vs Zafina for example. He just isn´t a good ft2/3 tournament character. Against good defense and spacing he really struggles to get in, combo wise he is too unreliable and what MainMan didn´t mention at all is that he is so so linear. Fighting GM dropped him as a tournament pick for good reason and started playing Geese in tournaments. Edit: After watching the video I had to come back to correct a couple things because MainMan tends to go a bit over the top when trying to make a point. Not trying to hate here. I just want the correct information out there: 1. d3 doesn´t evade mids. it just doesn´t. it might at a range where the mid would´ve missed anyways but I´m constantly getting df1´d out of d3. 2. b4 has fast recovery but can actually be whiff punished with i13-14 moves quite reliably. have you tried doing that to any of lydia´s moves? that´s the new standard for fast recovery and compared to that b4 recovers a lot slower. it is fast but kind of balanced by it having zero tracking whatsoever. if you go for the stance version of b4 it´s almost homing but has crazy long recovery. every of lee´s moves that go into stance have long recovery and good players know that and will use it against you very effectively. If it´s any move on block into stance or his d3 on hit into stance all his options lose to df1 except for the power crush. So either just block or check him with df1. If he starts throwing out powercrush a lot, duck and punish. the recovery is really bad for the power crush. 3. lee´s punishment is extremely strong but MainMan could´ve mentioned he doesn´t have a reliable i15 ws launcher. he has crouch cancel hop kick but online that mostly comes out as flip kick which is slow, will get blocked and you´ll eat a launch 4. the df1 SOMETIMES goes under jabs not most of the time. in my experience it mostly happens if i do df1 a little late so the animation starts when the jab is almost coming out. on top it tends to only work vs 1 jabs from the left not the 2 jabs from the right. MainMan could´ve noticed that when he tried to prove it in practice mode getting it only with this specific timing but he was busy proving a point. 5. ff3 is not hard to sidestep at all. it´s a ff move that re-alines which is why people get hit by it for trying to walk Lee at a range. If I notice that you want to sidewalk I can clip you with it because lee can use mist step to lengthen the range. if i do the normal ff3 it gets stepped quite often.
Completely disagree with him being Top 10, not even close. Not even top 15 in my opinion but that can be argued, the highest I would put him would be top 20 imo. Now, don't get me wrong, he is definitely not bad. I would go as to say he's above average for sure. That being said though, I pretty much agree with every point you made even with the edits you added.
@@IzNebula i think you could make a case for him being at least close to top 10 if he is played with absolute perfection. But I guess thats not realistic. He just crumbles too easily if the opponent knows the matchup very well. You would have to be so much more creative than other characters to get stuff going. The thing is he really suffers from online right now because his stuff often relies on exact frames and the game has developed a huge hunger for frames since late season 3. It eats my sidewalks:(
All of these comments are perfect, finally people that understand. He looks good on paper but no one will play him perfectly to precision 100% of the time and even when you do the game can fuck you with random hits not connecting, f 3 3 3 3 4 for example.
I would take FightingGM's opinion over anyone else's any day or any Lee main who is a Lee loyalist, they know the character like no other. And I completely agree everything you said, I was going to correct TMM on this. I've noticed TMM often exaggerates Lee's strengths which undermines his weaknesses. PS: Not sure about top 10, he's hardly top 20 imo.
@@voltreo Thats completely fine with me :) TMM always does this when making a character Video like this cause he knows how to debate. If you try to prove a point (lee is very strong) you will only offer points of discussion that serve your standpoint on the matter. He knows about Lee's weaknesses and actually made a whole video on that.
Just got the game lost a week ago. Playing Kazumi like you said, getting better and moving onto lee just to have some fun with him and learn some stuff. I don’t play much games but I think If I keep trying with him one day I will be good and that’s fine with me. I recommend him, he is good. And with me playing just sometimes I won’t get bored and will be able to stay consistent and therefore be able to keep getting better and better at him over “Time” Edit: love your vids man and have a good new year (it’s 1st jan as I’m typing this)
Wouldn't go as far as top10 but its probably top15 (I would rate him as such) and def top20 (upper tier) ... One of the things that brings him down its in fact the character difficulty, which gives him he's identity, the swag is cherry on top
Yah he is very strong, I also agree top 15 and definitely top 20 but not top 10, too many strong characters that don't have the insane execution requirements, very few people can play lee consistently in tournament
Lee is very fundamental based character, he's hard to master man but if you mastered his tool and you got insane fundamentals you can succeed with him. That's how I see with Fighting GM and Imyourfather
When I got Tekken 7 and started playing the Story mode and got to the part using Lee, I immediately knew he was my main and now I am learning and improving with him in Tekken 7
4:18 I may be wrong but I think they are called "magic" 4s from Julia in Tekken 3/ Tag 1. They could crush/evade moves with low hit boxes because she lifts one leg very high making her hitbox on her legs very small. It still happens today with other moves across the cast that do the same (someone lifting one leg high up and going through lows, like Fahk's b3, Alisa's f+3) But yes, adding that they were super fast CH launchers added to the name.
Yessss! My favourite character and new main. Still can't do a single combo but I've never had so much fun losing!! If you're gonna lose, lose in style.
Great one ! I'd also like to mention a reason why he is underrated which is really good for him. Most people like to be wary of Lee from mid range due to his keep out tools, and then tend to press more in close range thinking they can now afford to. But some of his most unimpressive moves have actually great frames, like db3. Little low pokes usually are negative on hit (Bryan's db3, Jin's d4 etc), but Lee's db3 actually leaves him at plus, which makes it a great tool for a magic 4 setup (people will respect the db3+4 due to the wobble animation, but won't respect the little db3 as much). Also, a lot of psychological pressure about finishing a string or not, for more magic 4 setups... well he used to be a Law clone after all.
I disagree with db3 having great frames, sure it's plus but the move is so slow to come out, you'll get CH before even hits the opponent a lot of the times. Look at Jin's db4, i20 but it gives him +4 and CH knockdown then we look at Lee's db3 and it's +2, nothing on CH and it's the same speed. IMO, the risk outweighs the reward, unfortunately it's still his best low poke, cause db3+4 is even worse if you can believe that, in terms of start-up and you still have to use it for safety. The best thing about db3 imo, is the frames on block, it being -12 means it can't be launched by characters like kazuya that launch -13 reliably.
@@IzNebula let me rephrase it : db3 has great frames for an unimpressive low that would usually be negative on hit. Bigger lows with a spark or a wobbling animation get respected because the frame advantage is noticeable, you precisely don't want db3 to be respected to get a CH. It just doesn't have the same function as Jin's db4 (Lee's db3+4 does, then I'd agree that it's not as good) Also the risk/reward ratio doesn't say much about how good a move actually is, if it did the optimal Kazuya would never use a hellsweep. That ratio is only thought about for creating mind games.
@@memebump7612 hi there :D Well I have a lot of ideas but not enough time to create the content, I'm working on a mixup analysis and compilation, but yeah... need time to record every idea (and find a good prey for each one lol) edit : also too much Jack-7 content, having had too much fun with him last time I played
@@friendlykoala most lows like that high crush and are much faster than Lee's db3, it absolutely should be thought of more like a pressure building low than a panic move, just like Kazuya,Jin,Kazumi db4
I play Tekken with my friends at work, during our breaks in our lounge room, and as a Jin main, I struggle the most against my friend that has a strong Lee because he’s so good at spacing. We’ll play a first to 10 and I’ll probably win 3 games if I’m lucky. When I play a first to 10 against his armor king, I’ve won 4 out of our 5 first to 10 sets
As a Lee player I wouldn’t say he’s top 10 more like top 15-20. He’s a character based all around controlling space, playing in the midrange and countering. His offense is not that great basically only 50/50 mixup with slide and WS 2,3. If you want to get the most out of him you need to master that slide mix up and Acid rain which helps reset the space between the opponent because his combos are actually weak. He has excellent counter hits but that means you need to know the matchup, know the frames, have great movement and have great defense otherwise you will get pummeled. You cannot mash buttons with him or have easy panic moves because he’s extremely fundamental. I recommend checking out fightinggm he’s better than imyourfather.
His combos aint that weak budd, he can get almost 80dmg + with walls on every launchers, thats decent and above average, his wall carry is good too, combined with all his ch And I would say that even if d3 is -15, it's a great panic tool because of the evasion, it doesnt work on side steps tho thanks for that Acid rain isnt even meant to be mastered since he has punishes for those who can't get the timing on it, it's obviously a gold one before -15 if you can do it, but not necessary needed 50/50 mix up is good but not that great at the same time, since it's kinda the same as Akuma's one, just backdash away and the only stuff that will happens is a whiff, it acts better as a keepout 50/50 like Akuma's one, if he run up to your face for crouch you have all the pleasure to get him with mids, it's better once he gets you to the wall, but again it's not that easy to set it up, unlike Kazuya's one But then he defo need some work to put this stuff in real match conditions, but as I always refer to, execution and difficulty is just something to forget because when you decide to main a difficult character you'll have to be good with that hardest stuff
Im getting tired of Lee players downplaying him. He is clearly top 10 because the opponent will not be focussed on fighting you because Lee is too stylish and enjoyable, if you do enough justframes they might even drop their controller and shake your hand.
@@FuryLima I would say other characters get better damage. That 80 damage wall combo would be 100 by other characters. The problem with Lee is that you have to play reactively with him to win, you have to play very fundamental Tekken with him and it’s hard to create pressure with him. I would say the top 10 characters in Tekken give you the option to play both aggressively and reactively but Lee limits you to mostly playing reactively/defensively.
Top 10 Vanilla character for sure but closer to top 15 when entire cast is included. T7 nerfed his ws launcher which did suck and makes it hard to adapt from older tekken games imo but the ff and bb4 launchers and d3 ch launch are amazing buffs.
Due to the same reason I dropped him and picked steve. Steve compared to lee is way easier also lee was my first character to play and mained him cuz of his style.
Thank you for the tips. I felt so stuck knowing only three combos and the ten hit combo. You didn't tell his secret technique to instantly do a down 3+4 which is just insane damage on good defense players
Gmfizzle is the best Lee in the world and rates him as mid tier. It's interesting to see how non-Lee players rate him so high. I'd like to see a conversation with Lee enthusiasts and top players to see where the conversation would go.
Because people that actually play the character understand the intricacies and difficulties of maining that char. On the other hand people tend to downgrade how good their main is. You'll find it's somewhere between the two, He's not top 10 and he's not mid tier, he's in between.
I remember a movie where the villian was taunting the hero with five fingers but the hero taunted him back with only index finger. Lee hitman stance is that taunt and its super cool to me as a kid. Memories bring back.
Running 34 crouches on startup, and jumps over lows and rage drives. Running 34 also cancels into HMS for an almost guaranteed UF 4 followup or oki mixup, and leaves the opponent crouched on block. Great move you didn't mention.
You can also do crouch cancel b3,3 to pick up on 1+2, I'd rather not go to hitman since his movement is locked in hitman stance But yeah Lee is underated at all, I thought this after his d3 buff when the move became a ch launcher, he has alot of evasion on many of his key moves, and despite execution, that's bullshit to talk about execution because when you choose to main a difficult character, you'll have to be good on this particular stuff, people been sleepin' on Lee for alot of time But I also should add that Lee's 50/50 is way more dangerous to set up because it's a full crouch mix up, where Kazuya can throw you invisible hellsweeps, in most case you can just back dash away from Lee doing his dash when crouched, and suddenly it becomes a less effective 50/50, powerful at the wall only
You can't really pressure him since he is so evasive and if you block one move, he can basically push you across the hole stage because almost every move is completely safe on block
People definitely sleep on Lee but Idk about top 10 tbh. He can have a hard time opening especially defensive players up, he doesn't have many moves that leave him super plus and the lack of good command throws other than ff3+4 kinda hurts too
I don't really care about his throw game, he has a punch parry that can switch sides if he is cornered into a wall, idk about Hwoarang, I usually duck the obvious highs and punish as hard as I can.
Lee is cool. After I played Katarina, I picked this guy up. I stopped Tekken 7 and didn't lab this guy, but i liked the machine gun kick and realized he's great off of that, but now you showed me my hunch was right. Time to lab.
I'm a lee main and i think his 1+2 is the most underrated homing move in the game. I spam it a lot and it works so many times. Finally someone who says he is probably top 10 character. He is hard as fuck in online matches if you don't play at 5 bars because you need to be an execution surgery...anyway, i think he is not harder than hei and yoshi for example when you play at high level. Very strong character and so underrated but so fucking cool and fun to play and watch!!!
for the longest time, I always thought he was ridiculously strong but at the same time, I expect lee players to either keep doing gimmicks or drop a lot of stuff.. unless they have 2k wins and is a blue rank lmao
TMM i may be a normie who left on Tekken 6 because Tekken got extremely greedy and it continues to this day. But i have to say your top 10 includes the entire roster. the actual tournament top 10 are actually mostly 3-4 characters at most. As much as you're trying to hard sell shit characters you have to put Lees in the context of Julia,Leroy,Fakhumram,Zafina,Geese,Akuma and Devil Jin and there's no doubt they just outclass the roster. It's pretty much a theme now for Tekken that the newer characters are a bit too well rounded and some of the older roster due to glaring weaknesses and one trick pony type gameplay just can't keep up anymore with the newer ones even at the hands of experts. When's the last time Knee won a tournament with Bryan ? exactly and he's counted amongst the stronger ones in T3 golden age roster
Lee is definitely not top 10, most people put him as upper mid tier which is fitting imo. Also about his evasiveness, df1 isn't some incredibly power option that just high crushes, a lot of it's evasion is more situational and good against certain matchups. D3 rarely ever goes under mids, really the only time it does is when the hitboxes are completely wack and both moves just whiff against each other.(though it has been fixed a little) ff4 is definitely busted though his lows pokes are not "low risk" at all, your main options are slide and d3, both of which you get comboed of off, db3 is just okay, compare it to a similar move like laws db3: Laws db3 is quicker, same damage, forces opponent in crouch, better tracking, doubles the frames on NH and gives +14 guard frames on CH. Lees db3+4 is also not going to be super useful against keen players, especially offline. Obviously this and his mediocre approach tools make it quite difficult to open up turtles, especially when against characters with a strong/evasive backdash like kuni or zaf. Movement in general is a pretty good counter against lee. Definitely a strong character, but not on the same level as the ones in top 10. (that's while not even taking into consideration that's he's also harder to pilot than many of them)
Yep, low pokes are pretty dicey business, you can screaming that he has d3 but he shouldn't be spamming that Lee doesn't have a good and oppressive mixup game, it's only on that defense with d3 where that avenue exists.
db3 is pretty good, and it is dishonest to compare it to possibly the strongest low poke in the game. Plus on hit -12 low? That's pretty good, think about Jin's db+4 being a very similar move but it is -13, and his d+4? Minus on hit. Not all characters have a Law db3, kazumi or kazuya db4. Usually you have stuff like DJ's d+3 or Marduk's d+3 which is -12 oB and - on hit, sometimes you got stuff like King's d+3 which is -12 and only +1. Lee's db3 is a very good low poke, not a top 5 low poke, but arguably a top 10 low poke. A 13 frame df1 that is not super minus on block, evades some highs and has THAT range is an incredibly powerful option as a midpoke, don't undersell it, because it may be the strongest df1 in the game. I don't think he's top 10, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was.
@@ulurius Also a great magic 4, safe df2, long range easy whiff punisher in the f3 string and some great high crush options. But I do agree that his lows aren't that good.
The dead by daylight videos where you're just funny and chill, as well as character/game overviews, are some of the best videos you post. Super informing and entertaining, keep it up Adrian
I saw so many videos of Kwis and others facing really good Lee's I always had this information bias that he's actually a pretty popular character to "main" especially at a high level of play.
The problem is that he's super technical, to the point tournament players won't play him if there's alternatives that let you execute stuff more stress free. Even ImYourFather, probably the best Lee in the world, drops combos more than he would if he played Fahk or Devil Jin.
the reason he's underrated imo is that for alotta people having fun with him requires them to spend time learning him for a long while. which makes them rather invest in easier characters so they can have fun from the get go. either way i have respect for Lee mains
