It's like when tmm was trying to prove how dumb Heis rage drive combo was with a Kaz combo, but had to disengage rage for Kaz because kazs combo did more damage without the RD, then switched to hei and yelled "WHERE IS MY RAGE" Just in defense of this guy, I've never heard a Tekken player not say some dumb shit crying about whatever made them salty that day. This dude probably lost to a Kaz before this video like tmm lost to a hei before that video lmao
Fr, not only frame perfect timing, cant buffer it so you have to do it frame 1 out of block stun. So you have to know the blockstun frame perfect for that particular string, recognize the string and react to it properly and risk no punish at all, and be able to do perfect electrics at will. This is impossible to do consistently except for the absolute highest level kaz players who have practiced it against common -13 strings, and even they who have a chance to do it will not attempt this in tournament. It's such a dumb take it makes me think he's trolling or just doesn't understand how difficult it is.
@@tongpoo8985 Agreed. Even consistently even punishing -15 is so hard. If you don't practice against specific moves to know the block stun you won't even hit that.
@@tongpoo8985 The first forward can be buffered. Majority of Kaz players aren't actually doing legit 13f electrics. They'd be able to do Taunt Mach Punch if they were doing it at the instance of recovery
@@UltimateBallaPOM it cant be buffered. You can hold it down and release it on the precise frame, but this is honestly harder. And even if the forward had a legit buffer window, it would be irrelevant since you would still have to do the very next input (neutral) on the exact second frame out of blockstun.
Always remember, just because someone is an amazing player with a character it doesnt mean they are good at debating about characters GM had like 0 arguements against Kazuya. I wish people would either not speak or be more thoughtful of what they are saying
nah but it makes sense lee is a good mtachup into kazuya but is he kazuyas worst ? i would argue steve is worse matchup or really any small bodied female characther
@@pranavjain8774Kazuya's best poking tool's his jab and Lee has high evasion in almost all his key moves and Steve has very little so that alone makes Lee better against Kaz. What does Steve have against Kaz that Lee doesn't? Lee also has better fast CH launchers than Steve which are useful against Kaz. Again man, what does Steve have against Kaz that Lee doesn't. Lee seems to have more tools to counter Kaz so your argument just crumbles at this point. And why did you say Steve is better again? Oh yeah "I think Steve is better against Kaz" Was your argument.
@@praxiann7615 Yeah GM's excuse was that he wasn't a Mishima player - it'll still be a cool matchup to see though especially if they decide to play their mains!
@@SSGoatanks I find Lee boring, all keep out or slides, he's very hard but that is just for combos, which he doesn't need to win cause his poke game is so strong. Kazuya has nothing and also hard to play.
@@Lobothemainman23 lmao, TMM held his own against one of the best Tekken players of all time, yeah that was Knee, so thinking he would bury his head in sand against a pro player is wishful thinking. This match needs to happen now!!!
@@uavisionx Knee used TMM's main and still destroyed him. Super Akouma beat him 10 times in a row, he just faced a pro Noctis and got trashed, Arslan vs TMM was a joke, Kaizur with Lucky Chloe demolished him, and any time he faces a pro its not even close.. They're pros for a reason. TMM is a great player, but there is zero evidence that he could beat any pro players.
He's such a good player. It's too bad his attitude is so counter productive. He doesn't compete even tho when he does he does pretty good. Always with tons of excuses . Makes enemies with everyone and will not take criticism. I really want to be a fan but he makes it so hard. He should have a great streaming/competition career but he is his own worst enemy.
exactly just cuz a certain someone happens to be a good player dont mean they know wtf theyre talking about let alone understand certain weaknesses and strengths to characters. Dude would be a poopfart teacher
@@Lobothemainman23Its called the "Smelling your own farts" mentality. Its where you're so good at something (or think you're very good) to the point you start to minimize your thinking comprehension and begin to think on your ego.
If being able to 14f electric punish a minus 14 move is considered godlike, -nobody- very few will 13f electric punish in the heat of a match. Yeah Kazuya CAN 13f electric Lee's ws2,3 but that's in theory. In a real match on a tournament setting its a completely different thing. That alone is a weird AF take imo.
@@MrDamojak exactly...He won't ever go for it in high stakes battles like tournaments, especially in clutch situations. People risking getting ducked and launched is just stupid.
Whilst he made HMS shuffle more known, it was actually discovered and demonstrated in much older iterations. This is the earliest I remember: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-te9TGDLGsr0.html Ref 2: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wFewfBEtnX0.html However older series have had this demonstration since T4 (if I can find the video, I'll edit and reference here) Because we now have b+3+4 powercrush, the manouever options are much more limited with the only fast option being with HMS+1~f~D/B~HMS etc
I commented on this video 2 weeks ago, where I made many of the same points TMM made. All I got was him half reading my comment and laughing at me. He's a great player, but I wouldn't expect any mature response from him, TMM.
@@Lobothemainman23 unfortunately. He did double down on Kazuya being able to i13 electric punish him tho. So I guess he really does believe that that is a viable option
@@Brainzzz123we’re talking the top 1% of players who can actually do this stuff. He doesn’t play online or care about casuals who don’t compete. People are completely missing the point and forget he is a tournament player.
This is why mainman is the best Tekken youtuber, best info, guides, updates and gameplay. Comoared to other Mainman has done way more the franchise than profesional players ever will, best tekken player to me and he doesnt need a championship title to demonstrate that
Had the pleasure of playing his Lee. I got mopped. Obviously he's great with the character and has a strong understanding of the game in general - as one would expect from a pro player. Just odd that his counter arguments are theoretical and not about what does work in real time matches.
The block stun and df2 perfect electric isn't fully frame perfect. You can press forward for up to about 5f and then the down and down-forward as just frames. Try it out on the CBT if you're one of those with hands. TJU doesn't have a buffer period and it has to be perfect 16f every time. It's around the same difficulty as perfect electric since you go from one direction to the opposite. Taunt Mach Punch is arguably the hardest 2 sequence move in the game. If you're legit doing 13f electrics then you should be able to do this since it's 1f slower. Sergei Mazter doesn't do all the theoretical things TMM and FGM spoke about and he's the highest performing Mishima.
Given his accolades and achievements with Lee not just on this game but past TEKKEN titles too! It’s undisputed fact that GM has the best Lee in the world.
If you are eating too many hellsweep mixups and you struggle with side walking it means you either don't know your opponent's timing or give him too many frames...remember that Lee has an 11f M4 if your opponents likes to go for hellsweep mix everytime he's a bit plus. I main Gigas, get launched on my only +frame low and can't step hellseep mix almost entirely and I would still take on a Kazuya anyday with him over Lee who pretty much has a perfect poke, counter hit and keepout game with crouching 50/50 that's completely BS at the wall.
I'm calling it now. He's going to find one clip of a tournament player punishing hop-kick with PEWGF and say you can do it because it happened once in tourney and never again. One outlier is going to be his whole argument I promise you.
Love how this entire response boils down to "you lose as Kazuya only if you're bad," "you can punish on block," and "Lee has weaknesses." Every point is either too universal and ends up not being Kazuya-specific, unrealistic due to the scenarios where certain counterplay shows up (you have to be in your opponent's head frame 1 to hit some of these not even considering EWGF punish), or just irrelevant due to it not appearing/being used incorrectly in the context of the matchup. It doesn't make any points FOR Kazuya, just random heresay to believe because top player. Unfortunately, people aren't as predictable as one string and will apply ways to force mistakes throughout any game, set, and match. Edit: "Lee can get mixed up by Kazuya the mix character." ok
POINTLESS ARGUMENT ( It depends On The Player knowledge And Motorskills Memory, REFLEXES, MEN. ENDURANCE, ATTENTIVENESS, PATIENTENCE - REAL WORLD SKILLS !!!!!
yes i agree. but it can be done while having ego still. just requires a harder to maintain mentality . like andrew tate says. when you have an ego you are despreate to cover your mistakes to back it up. so the kind of ego you protect and try to back up, not just ego for the sake of it@@yoyoprofessorxavier
@@praisemidir you immediately invalidate any opinion you have by quoting andree tate. a misogynistic pile of garbage that you probably worship or something. no point in discussing with types like you fella.
Yo, do you guys remember when lil majin called launch Leroy balanced?? This is kinda similar to that claim NGL 😂😂 This is one of the worst Kazuya's matchups that likely in order go: Lili, Steve, lee
Couldn't agree more, I think those 3 characters are just strong vs Mishimas in general. This is coming from a Lee main myself. Not as experienced or remotely as good as GM, but even I can see what TMM said is true.
@@naiiin6949 no he doesn’t it’s 14 at perfect input also I feel it’s harder to do at max speed than kazuya as he doesn’t have multiple inputs for it. Kazuya’s i13 electric is done by f/n/df2 or f/d/df2 unlike the normal one which is f/n/d/df2 so it’s basically 3 inputs rather than 4 and that’s what allows it to be faster by 1 frame if done perfectly.
holy shit i have a lot of respect for fightinggm but maybe he isnt explaining properly because his points are so dumb. as tmm says most of the stuff he says is universal, not just because of kazuya's specific moves or matchups i mean all he is saying is that kazuya players are patient and not smashers thats why its not a bad matchup. like what?
For real. The only valid argument he made was the one about Lee's lows being worse against Kazuya than against most characters. The rest of the arguments have nothing to do with Kazuya.
BATTLE OF THE DOWNPLAYERS lmao... only way to settle this is for them to go first to 10, with both of them trying their hardest to lose on purpose. Only then will we know who is the worst character in the game
i absolutely hated when GM said that FF+4 and magic 4 are hard read moves No they are not both are safe on block and you can throw them out alot more then kazuya's df+2 or D+1+2. he talked in the video as if you can check for FF+4 with df2 thats Stoopid df2 isnt a safe mid counterhit launcher you can just throw out.
There seems to be a trend with TMM making a video on a character,and almost immediately some random main of the character makes a response with questionable arguments and shit. God bless the tekken community 😂
Sorry but I'm gonna take the opinion of at least top 3 lee players In the world vs a Kazuya fanboy that is top 500 maybe, who is CONSTANTLY wrong about shit all the time ("Leroy is not op", "geese is mid tier", "fakhumram is not good" etc...). He put lee in top 5-10 for years. He has no idea wtf he is talking about a out lee
I wouldn’t debate that he may be a better Lee, but mirror matches don’t decide who the better player is. You can be good against your own character and bad against the rest. GM has more results than Chrishin.
Mirror matches are weird... Jimmyjtran for example lost the mirror Bryan match to AcuMajor, Knee and Inkognito, but he's still widely regarded as the best Bryan among these players.
Everyone pretty has to deal with wavedash mixups if the Mishima sets it up right. However, its not some inescapable blender or vortex. Even if that were the case, Kazuya is coin flipping and it won't give you consistent wins. You have to play the game with Lee of course, but we should see this matchup between two seat Lords with these characters.
Fighting GM uses a ps2 controller and a ps2 webcam. How dare he make lackluster arguments against one of the best tekken players to ever walk the planet?
@@fightinggm dude your streams are wack though ngl. u use a 5 dolla mic and a PS eyetoy webcam. also you never played Arslan in tournament but phidx did and beat him
I know this video is older now on an obsolete game but this was probarly the saddest display a pro player ever put on because he was salty. This man is really mad that kazuya can do absolutely anything, like huh? Wow he has a 12f punish, take it away immediatly. It's like watching a redditor have his daily breakdown after a bad ranked sesh.
To recap this man here thought all Kazuya main are god and can easily do a i13 Electric launch punish in a real match after blocking a -13 move Yeah good luck doing that Also he says Lee have bad movement while casually stepping an electric at -1 that not all characters can
Imagine saying you can consistently punish 13f ewgf, lol. He was the best lee like 10 years ago or when, father and lee3 are at least playing in tourneys. That dude is just complaining about everything and can’t acknowledge some basic things. He is like 30+ y o but acts like he is 12.
It's clear to me that GM has just a bloated ego, and considering the comments of people blowing it up even more, I can see why. He is WAS the best Lee in the world, but that's no longer the case nowadays. Idk, who may be the best Lee now, but I can say with confidence it isn't him. In his eyes, Lee is weak vs everyone. Recognizing your character's strength and weaknesses is a sign of an unbiased opinion, this take was so such a biased and poor take lol. I might not be nearly as good, but I recognize Lee's strengths, as well as his weaknesses.
idk Lei's 10 frame punish is cracked after its buffs, 11 into snake plus 6 guarantee 50/50 (except against master raven the only character to beat both options) which leads into another 50/50. if you get it right you can win a round easily.
10:39 I highly doubt that, Lee has the worst jab range in the game, and you have no idea how many times Lee's jab don't reach after blocking an unsafe move :(
13f electric punish is infinitely easier than TJU. You can buffer your forwards. So your input can look like this: ffffffffffffffff n df2, and it'll still work. MMSWE just really likes the idea Kazuya being harder than every other character.
Before watching the video, and as a, let's say "non TG" player, my first thoughts are that every single "worst matchup" for Kaz I've ever seen or heard of has not had any actuall basis in results on either pro level or below. every time I see "Steve is one of the worst for Kaz" i allways see him win or lose BARELY.
It really depends on the caliber of player utilizing it. Just because it doesn't happen as often, doesn't mean it's true. Steve's tools are so good vs Mishimas by default, but it isn't a guaranteed win either.
All I know is b1 is good, what else really? >They both have 10f jabs, low parries are universal. Steves low punishment is abyssmal above 11f and he can't launch KAz's launch punishable moves. B1 contering hellsweep etc. is only relevant if they do it point blank at 0 frames each, and MANY other chars can CH the same no problem, so what makes Steve stand out? I'm genuinly curious. I want to know. Teach me.@@IzNebula
@@Kjernekar His side step + sway gets kazuya's back everytime even with the added tracking to electric, this may be true for every character, but it's specially true vs Kazuya and other Mishima's due to their constant wave dashing, since they like to wave dash to realigning, but with sidestep into sway in the same direction their realignment doesn't work as well, it's just too much space covered in a short amount of time. As you mentioned B1 is extremely good, but not just as a counter at close range, but also as keepout due to it's safety and recovery, so even throwing it out at range is good and doing it as they come in wave dashing is good because they will rarely be able to punish.
why would you even bring up -14 moves then when a key part of the video is about how consistent can top kazuya players PEWGF -13 moves -14 moves are irrelevant@@FGCTekken
@bansheejack7567 Read my comment again. -13 impossible but -14 possible. I'm agreeing with Mainman but also disagreeing with him. It's as simple as that.
The guy with the most tournament wins has the most tournament wins and only means the person has emerged victorious from said tournaments. In almost all activities such as games or sports, to be considered the best one also needs to be tested under the most rigorous conditions.
@@aavavertu229You're kinda insinuating that the accomplishments of people like Ryan Hart, Justin Wong, and Daigo means nothing. What exactly do you mean by rigorous? The playing conditions back in older days were naturally rougher now. These days you got people like Punk complaining every month about one frame of lag on a monitor or screen tear costing him the whole set. Everyone also cries for balance patches not even a month into games. If you imagine stuff like lower quality setups, no balance patches pretty much, fighting games not hand holding as much, and information and tech not being shared on the internet as much as today, then competition seemed much more challenging then compared to today.
@@SeveredEverlastingWorldLore No not at all. The old school players were tested and also proved themselves in some form of controlled offline environment. That is all I meant. What I am saying is that it is impossible to even start and try to determine who is "best" based on online performance only.
Tekken 7 is very balanced game. Especially compared to other fighters. So situation like "character A COMPLETELY DESTROYS character B" doesn't appear in this game at all. Yes, there are some match up nuances, but stil game is very balanced.
GM makes an appealing case for Lee not being Kazuya's worst match up in matches and theoretically. There are pros and cons on both sides. Kazuya's worse match up might be one where panic moves would be useful. From hearing both arguments, I'd say it's a pretty even match up or could lightly swing either way.
GM is not consistent with Lee at all. I have not seen him in tournaments dominate or take on High level players in DM. The undisputed all time best Lee player is Help Me. Even his ttt2 matches are a guide on how to play Lee, what to do and what not to do. I have modeled my Lee game heavily after him and wrecked opponents in Pakistan with it. Help me had Death Matches against Knee, Only Practice, Hao, Nobi and various tournaments too. He dropped Lee in T7 because he himself thought Lee wasn't good enough for T7. And I have no doubt at all he could still body 90 percent of pros and consistently make top 8 with T7 Lee as well. Just look at his match against Qudans in 2017 (Qudans was most strongest at the time as he even won TWT 2017 and was runner up in 2018) .His opinion holds the most weight here. T7 is a different game where a lot of old characters who were strong don't shine even with buffs like Lars, Lee etc. You can still play him for loyalist reason but he does not even have a friggin 15 frame while standing launch punish anymore.
@@praisemidir match never happened. Cant really say for sure the outcome, however he was extremely close to the highest level players even when he lost. I haven't seen any Lee player quite like him. And arslan has been beaten by the same knee that help me went one on one with in the tag 2 days and beyond.
@@praisemidir He is a good player and I am not putting him down. I just prefer help me playstyle. Watching his gameplay made me improve miles. BTW, this is is my second account which I use for my pc. You are once again arguing with *Vergil* like you did a day ago lol. I'm not looking to reignite that argument again. GM is great and id like to see more of him in tourneys, its just that Help me is unique. There is something about him I just love watching,
Best Lee in the world around T6 or TTT2 days but his days are over with. He's washed out now and they're way better Lee players than him out there now. I have 0 respect for him because he have no respect towards the entire community. If he defeats you, he'll rematch you all day. If you beat him once or twice, it's always an excuse why he g2g next. Everybody is the best in the world if they 100+ wins streak a 1st dan on T7 to get TTG
You clearly don’t watch him enough. He plays players who beat him 3 times in a row and he still rematches and whoops their ass ultimately. Stop hating cause ur probably one of them idiots who got bodied by him.
yeah just google fighting gm vs arslan ft10 or fighting gm geese vs jdcr which he all won in tekken 7. or fighting gm vs knee but he only fought him on the really old tekkens as far as i am aware. when knee wasnt as good@@axellyann5085
