"I died as a mineral and became a plant, I died as plant and rose to animal, I died as animal and I was Man. Why should I fear? When was I less by dying? Yet once more I shall die as Man, to soar With angels blest; but even from angelhood I must pass on: all except God doth perish. When I have sacrificed my angel-soul, I shall become what no mind e'er conceived. Oh, let me not exist! for Non-existence Proclaims in organ tones, To Him we shall return." --Jalal ed-Din Rumi (1207-1273) Translated by A.J. Arberry
@@profile1251 It's all old Amateur Psychology and Cognitive Science .. of myths and metaphors or gods and devils. It's who we are as human beings. WE make shit up.
From a previous interview between Jeffrey and Doug, I ordered his book ‘The Silent Questions’ - I’m reading it now, it’s very engaging, well written, full of subtle and deep wisdom about the journey of life. Thank you to Jeffrey and his channel for introducing Doug’s thinking to me. And by extension, other works and philosophies in an ever widening circle. Kind of what this channel is all about!
@flyingleatherneck that's all fine and good ... but be aware that ECKANKAR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SHAMS or RUMI or the SUFIS and Sikhs -- MARMAN'S The Whole Truth book is full of ERRORS AND FALSEHOODS Doug Marman has refused to correct publicly - It's all because of a thing called COMPARTMENTALISATION - aka COGNITIVE DISSONANCE and extreme BIASES - that is what Doug Marman has done with his flawed FALSE APOLOGETICS for Twitchell's outright lies, his massive Plagiarism/verbatim Copying and Eckankar a FAKE system - see short summary groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/qZkeVDOBLU8/vPfs2Hi4AwAJ - factual evidence drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-M0yAR0UPhPalFWRzl6YmlmM00 - Marman does NOT support Harold Klemp, who does NOT support anything done by Doug, Doug marman in on the POUITER of eckankar and nor does Marman (truthfully) represent Eckankar or it's actual teachings of today.
What a lovely conversation! I am pretty impressed by how much Mr. Marman has delved into the never-ending world of Molana and not to underescore his profound wisdom about Rumi's way, I remember my father's version of the story about Rumi and Shams' first meeting. He believed that despite the many stories revolving around this legendary meeting, no matter what, Shams blew Molana's mind away with a simple demonstration of what it means to feel God within. That's where all the controversial stories and the poetry of Molana begin. The part of the story that Shams demands Rumi to leave his books behind is attributed to 'Abū Ḥāmid Muḥammad ibn Ghazali', another popular Sufi figure, who loses everything he knows on a roadtrip (possibly a pilgrimage) where he is attacked by a thief in the middle of the desert, who, as a life lesson, takes away all of his written knowledge that he was carrying. The person who gets crucified like a Jesus, over calling himself 'God' is also popular to be 'Mansour Hallaj' a follower of 'Bayazid Bastami', another powerful figure in the history of Sufism. Regardless, thank you so much again Jeffrey for holding space for such brilliant and therapeutic conversations.
How Awesome and enlightening to have come across this channel...nothing is without purpose !!! so grateful to Doug and Jeffrey for a conversation which brought Rumi closer to my heart.
@@spiritseeker2831 "... he doesn't translate well..." - I can only wonder what was the depth of the word's sounds in the original language cause, now, reading Rumi in Dutch it's so difficult to get even the same depth that the English Translation has. Or, it must be that I don't feel the Dutch language as deep? 🤔
@@spiritseeker2831 I attended Rumi's 750th birthday celebration at Stanford University in 2007. It was a packed gathering of scholars, writers, and poets from all over the world. The event itself was an out of body experience, to say the least. Of course if you are Iranian, his poetry is woven into the very fabric of the culture, but I had also always been curious about how his wisdom could translate into a different language, particularly a linear language such as English (in comparison to Farsi which is very much a romance language). Coleman Barks was one of the speakers that day, and it was the unanimous conclusion that his books and translations were the best in English, particularly b/c he had worked with one of the most renowned Iranian Rumi scholars. So, I picked up his books. Rumi's Masnavi is his masterpiece, but yes, Barks' books are not the entire body of work but a respectable collection.
For some reason, I was moved to tears on occasions, during this interview. I barely know anything about Rumi but somehow feel deeply connected to him and his embodiment of words. Again, thank you for a great interview.
Profound insight into the meaning of some of Rumi's poetry and significant events in his life. Also a very helpful insight into the experience of mysticism.
Your heart need not be be broken since you don't necessarily need a spiritual leader. Everybody is born with a strong connection to the core. The problem is that sometimes during our lifetime we make it weak.
@@saazeh Thank you for saying that. It's like I've forgotten who I am and need help to remember. I suppose I delude myself and it's entirely up to me to stop.
Hello, I used to be an ardent Sufi, so fervent that I resisted anything new. Someone shared the Eckankar website with me, and I began reading the ECK books. However, I was skeptical of the idea that Shamus-i-Tabriz was an ECK Master. After reading Paul Twitchell's book "The Key to the Secret Worlds," I had a dream where Rumi and Hafiz guided me to Harold Klemp and Paul Twitchell, placing my hands in the hands of modern prophets of ECKANKAR. I embraced Doug Marman's teachings in his videos and subsequently joined Eckankar.
Although Rumi did express some of his mystical experiences through his poetry, I still think of him when I read this verse: “a myriad rivers of holiness stream within their breasts, and yet no trace thereof is to be seen; the books of God’s consummate wisdom are recorded upon the tablets of their hearts, and yet they breathe not a word thereof in the world of appearances.” Baha’u’llah Try as we might, words can’t do justice to transcendent experiences.
As an Iranian American I have to confess, given all the degradation Iranians have had to endure since the 1979 so called Islamic revolution, either by the mullahs or the West's political propaganda machine, we have never forgotten that this is a civilization that gave birth to Rumi. And how secretly we take pleasure in that unless one's native language is Persian and understands the culture, it would almost be impossible to embrace the profundity and genius of his work fully. Even in Turkey his poetry is a translation (Rumi and his father fled to Turkey to escape the Mongol's invasion of Persia). By the way, in my humble opinion, the best Rumi translation to English, is possibly the work of Coleman Barks.
@Andy Roo I think we can decidedly conclude what his take of Shariah law would be, given his relationship with the clergy of his time. Most Iranians would agree with him to boot. Did we really need the Arab invasion and what they left behind as a religion? We already had Zarathustra!!
Rumi has his own philosophy or doctrine. It has been documented previously. In summary, it consists of series of laws and practical processes that one could follow and seek enlightenment. examples are law of acceptance, law of patience, law of attraction, law of abundance, law of compensation ...
Mysticism and Metaphysics share one very important principle and that is de-objectification of the self and entering pure subjectivity. Moving from empirical objectivity into gnosis.
I have a dear Yogi friend who , sometimes for many days in a row, texts me short excerpts of poetry by Rumi. Indeed it could have been written yesterday or in the last hour. I have started occasionally doing the same as my friend. The last one I sent was this two days ago: Love's fingers tear up, root and stem, Every house where sunbeams fall from love. When my heart saw love's sea, of a sudden It left me and leaped in, crying, , Find me.' Rumi
@4:50 If Rumi lived in the 13th century and we live in the 21st century, that would be 800 years ago. It *used* to be 700 years ago, but now it's 800. My how time flies!
Yes we can be grateful for the "bad stuff" after the fact, and take these things as a lesson, yet that by no means, mean, that we should allow that stuff to happen in the first place. Life is difficult enough without the deliberate "wickedness" of certain folk.
@Chams Ali When all is said and done, wickedness is a personal choice, as is ones redemption. And for THAT matter, whether one pays it any credence, or attention, or merit/demerit, is also a choice.. Here begins the pathway to Self realisation.
By the way: I forgot to mention that the new intro is appealing & seems sound recognisable & familiar yet, the voix is somehow 'brain scratchy'. Personally, I prefer a more soft-airy one. Graphics meet the times & behold your personal motive's choice of Logo (+1 on that!) #JustmyMeaning
@ 36:33 Jeffrey Mishlove and the guest Doug Marman are referring to the Sufi named Mansur Al-Hallaj who started the whirling and was executed on charges of "shirk" (association with Allah/God) for proclaiming "ana al-Haqq" (I am the Truth) as "al-Haqq" (the Truth) is among one of the 99 names of Allah in Islam.
If you’re interesting in whirling dervishes checkout an interview on Conscious TV very good site. They bow symbolic of cutting off the head then you get into your heart ❤️.
you are at a big gate, you know you must not let anyone through that gate... you feel you're there to stop all from going through that gate... (the Devil at the gate) , some one comes along who's much bigger and stronger than you, what do you do?.. and after you answer that... the question becomes then why am I here if I cant... if that gate is a black hole and you "can" make that known to the other, much bigger and stronger... then the reason for you being there to stop them, becomes obvious... its not your size but your knowledge you can tell... a light house never wants to attract a boat... if the boat is attracted to the light then its a lemming... a coming end will be in the coming hours...
It is pronounced Sh-a-m-s (the "a" is a short a as in "pass" and the "s" is a strong s not a z), definitely not Shaamz. Hope that helps. I am a native Farsi speaker by the way.
@@donq2957 That was a response to a question that came up in the video a couple of times. Did you have a specific question in mind, if so I'd be more than happy to help!
@@donq2957 That is a very good question and I don't profess to know the answer, though I don't think Hafiz and Saadi are actually atheists. They do believe in drinking the wine and smashing the bottle. In other words, they believe in God just not the particular vessel that is supposed to deliver God to us, namely religion!! Also I think Hafiz in particular is popular in the west, perhaps not in America as much. The other reason could be that Turkey made a commercial effort to popularize Rumi and of course make him theirs (to lure tourists to Konia which is a whole different conversation), whereas the out of touch Mullahs in Iran would do away with the entire history and Persian civilization if they could. However, that backfired big time!!
@@donq2957 I thought you maybe Iranian, who else would spell Molana as phonetically as a native Farsi speaker would, what a relief!! I actually think most references to religious figures such as Moses, Noah, etc are anecdotal, to set a framework or background understanding as we often do in Farsi, given how layered the language is and not necessarily an indication of their religious beliefs. I believe both Shams and Rumi possesed an understanding of their divinity (our divinity if you will) that surpassed duality. "I am God" or "There's a field out beyond right and wrong; I'll meet you there." aren't excatly direct quotes from Quran or the Bible. Let me ask you the same question you posed to me; why do you think Hafez and Saadi are not as well read here? I have always been curious about that!
@@donq2957 Agreed. Best "English translation" is a relative term. Accuracy is also relative unless you have a scholar with absolute mastery of both languages and cultures, even then. Shakespeare is only Shakespeare b/c the West never had to read a translated version. What we get in any translation is aged wine and tap water mixed!
They don't mention his basic teaching which was Islam , you can't remove Islam from rumis teachings. You are missing the point if you do. Sufis are not free wheeling ,they are true in their remembrances and love of Almighty God.
should we be in pain for no reason... should we be suffering for no reason... that is the question! why is losing so bad to most, because it was all for nothing?.. no, it was because there was no cause for that win... everything in our world has a cause and effect, what is nothing... is it a no thing... or, is it the opposite of some thing... or is it 0 every thing has an equal but opposite force, and its proportional... the more I have the less you have... the less you have the more I have... lets say pain kicks in after 3 if we are 9 and you are 6 then I must be 3 this becomes a fact if we are 9 and you are 3 then I must be 6 this becomes a fact then who is the one 0 If I am suffering at only scale 3 then you must be suffering at a scale of 6 and I must keep you suffering to keep myself free of suffering, I say to you drink those spirits take all those drugs become at one with total disorder... for me to become free from suffering I have to make you think suffering is a good thing... to make me 3 I have to make you 6...Lucifer having its way... Thx...
I love most of the poetry of Rumi, until we get to the anti-Semitic stereotypes he used to depict non-Muslim Semitic people. Not as enlightened as I liked to think. Still, if we overlook his historically-typical anti-Antisemitism, as we have to overlook the Antisemitism in so many of our friends and colleagues, Rumi wrote some beautiful verse.
That's disturbing. Could it be in the translation? I assume you're not reading the original .. I don't even know what language he spoke! If the translator was bigoted, it could come through. I obviously don't know, I'm just wishful thinking, perhaps.
tell me if I'm wrong but do I see a theme going through this talk... I know nothing of this Rami or this Shams at all... a man from Rome (Rumi) meets a man from Nazareth (Shams) and becomes his student so he, the professor becomes the student of the one (Shams), but Shams saw Rumi's deceit and sought another... for he was not the one... Rami can never allow this to happen... so has him ambushed and so as to have the one all to himself... Lucifer at the helm indeed... Shams on the cross shouting Rami you bastard...
IT NEEDS A PROFOUNDLY FREE IMAGINATION TO CONNECT AND UNDERSTAND THE EVERYTHING --("god"?) ---GREATER EVEN THAN THE MND NEEDED TO MAKE SENSE OF ("humans"?).JUNG GOT FURTHER - was able to make some sense of the madness of humans and of spiritual dimensions.BUT NO ONE EVER DID GET THERE AND STILL LINGERED HERE.GETTING THERE --BECOMING ONE WITH THE EVERYTHING - MAKES THE JOURNEY THROUGH THIS DIMENSION NO LONGER NECESSARY -TO STAY HERE - REPEAT THE PROCESS - WOULD ONLY MAKE SENSE - IF THE IMAGINATION COULD BE GROWN IN OTHERS - WITH THOSE IN THIS CONUNDRUM WHO WANT TO FIND THEIR OWN PATH TO GET THERE.IMAGINATION IS THE --KEY.ONE-- MUST GROW THEIR OWN.FEW EVEN TRY.AND THOSE WHO DARE TO TRY ARE FUCKED AND TWISTED AND KILLED - MAKING THE LEARNING OF MAGIC - WHICH IS THEIR UNIQUE INDIVIDUAL IMAGINATIONS THAT CAN BRING THEM TO THEIR HEAVEN - IF IT'S GROWN TO ITS BEST - WITH CARING AND LOVE - WHEN THE PERSON IS HELPED WITH WISDOM AND HONESTY AND TRUTH - TO GROW WELL - ABLE TO DREAM --DREAMS THEY LOVE,TO GROW DREAMS THEIR IMAGINATIONS CAN MAKE THEIR REALITY- THEIR OWN- THAT THEY EARNED FOR THEMSELVES..THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO ARRIVE - FIND AND BE IN WHAT IS HEAVEN --YOUR --OWN.YOU-- NEED TO GROW IT AND GROW YOURSELF TO FIT INTO YOUR DREAM.IT'S A VERY SIMPLE RECIPE -- CHRIST KNEW ---IT'S ALL AND ONLY LOVE - THAT BEGINS AS A TINY SEED - BUT CAN GROW ---BE GROWN BY OURSELVES - AS GARDENERS INTO HEAVEN.DON'T FORGET THAT THE BEST GARDNERS KNOW THE BEST GARDENS GROW WITH FERTILIZER ---GOOD SHIT.LEAVE THAT OUT - IT WILL FAIL - INCLUDE THE BEST SHIT YOU CAN FIND AND YOU WILL GROW A MIRACLE.
Instead of just being a living book for Rumi history, why not be Rumi? no disrespect meant, but sometimes I can't stand the way westerners read and study certain things but they don't do them. Like I want to hear somebody's experience doing some of what Rumi wrote about. Discussions like this are too safe. Westerners cheapen a lot of Eastern teachings with too much talking and not enough doing.
RE "Discussions like this are too safe. Westerners cheapen a lot of Eastern teachings with too much talking and not enough doing." -- YES, it's what Doug Marman does best ... he is so full of himself and his opinions ... while ignoring and denying his multitudinous errors and irrational fanciful conclusions. And running away from evidence based critiques of his Writings and Pronouncements. Marman is NOT CREDIBLE as an authority on anything but his own IMAGINATIONS .... but he is as convincing as every other conman, as Twitchell was, Marman's biggest hero! Doug Marman is a Sophist - a person who reasons with clever but fallacious and deceptive arguments - ECKANKAR is just another seriously flawed CULTIC belief system based on FALSEHOODS LIES and MANIPULATION - Doug Marman is an Unreliable Dishonest Manipulator and Apologist for the Twitchell/Eckankar an Incompetent "researcher" of the Facts. Buyer Beware - 2014 The Holes in Doug Marman's Plagiarism Theories and Beliefs Review aka 'The Other Half of the Whole Truth' drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPSC1XMEpWeVQzb2M/view It's all because of a thing called COMPARTMENTALISATION - aka COGNITIVE DISSONANCE and extreme BIASES - that is what Doug Marman has done with his flawed FALSE APOLOGETICS for Twitchell's outright Lies, massive Plagiarism/Verbatim Copying and FICTIONAL System he Sold as Eckankar - summary groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/qZkeVDOBLU8/vPfs2Hi4AwAJ - factual evidence drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-M0yAR0UPhPalFWRzl6YmlmM00
