The new K Con Zildjian is terrific, but Philly’s old classic cymbal is Magic. Of course it’s got the vibe, some serious Juju, that cymbal is part of the collective unconscious of any and all serious jazz drummers, regardless of where you sit in the lineage. Wow. John does a fantastic job with the A-B of the two cymbals, pulling out the right colors and tones for us to get sense of the instrument. I use all K Cons now, Zildjiians are really good these days. But those old ones... Wow, just wow. Thanks Memphis/John/Zildjian! -Greg Burrows
Any good quality cymbal is not only a financial investment, but also one of time. No cymbal, no matter how fancy/expensive, sounds good right off the floor. Takes years of attention, gigging, and practicing until the cymbal starts to come to its sound. It’s why all the vintage Ks sound so good. The more you break quality cymbals in, the better they get. You can tell from the attack that this new cymbal will sound fantastic in about a decade.
Amazing to see the cymbal that Philly Joe Jones used on “Cookin” Workin” etc! I listened to those quite a bit back in the day. Also Milestones of course. I wonder if it’s the same cymbal he used on “Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section.” That’s another record that I listened to a lot in my formative years. Btw John’s Art Of Bop Drumming book is incredible IMO.
Outstanding video with John. This comparison with this historical masterpiece is a nice attempt by Avedis. Philly would have taken the new one too and sold it immediately. But the trick with the hairpin is ingenious and saves money...
Many great comments. My first one..why not put at least one rivet in the new one? You can't "compare" tonal spread and wash between two cymbals when one has rivets and the other doesn't. That didn't make any sense to me. Second comment ..that portion of the original that has been removed (assuming to due damage) IS part of its character. The cymbal doesn't act like it did before it was removed and it is nearly impossible to recreate that with a whole and intact new one. I also believe that as a general overall comment...the newer Zildjians all sound too 'heavy ish" or bright. Save for a few specific lines..(the discontinued Armand series for example ..WHY??? Zildjian..WHY?) have a much less aggressive top end and a more consistent harmonic wash underneath. No question about Mr. Riley's talents...they speak for themselves but overall..these two cymbals don't match well to my ears.
There is no substitute for some dirt, or on the old Cymbals nicotine and smoke… The new ones will sound really good with some dirt. One of the worst things you can do to a great cymbal is to clean it with cymbal polish.
@@rhythmfield A Customs or K Custom brilliant finish cymbals sound amazing when cleaned, as their characteristic sonic profiles are bright and cutting. But I don’t think under any circumstances would I clean a 70 year old K cymbal
They sound different to me. The new one sounds like a K Con and the old one is more in line with vintage A sound, and why do vintage cymbals look charming? Thanks MDS for uploading these videos.
Philly Joe's cymbal is quite a beautiful cymbal. The K Constantinople is also a great cymbal. It really is a different quality than Philly Joe's. There is nothing quite like an old K. I used to have 4 or 5 and am now down to one. All in all, Zildjian makes a great product, not matter what you are looking for. Meanwhile, John sounds beautiful here.
The hardest thing to do is to mass produce a cymbal and make it exactly the same every time. Philly’s old K is one of a kind in the sense that the patina, the lathing, and all other aspects of it have changed and “sat” over the years. Chances are the cymbal also sounds different now than it did with miles. The patina and mother nature had a lot to do with that 😉 They also didn’t have specific names and models for cymbals like they do now. Talking to older drummers, everyone tells me that cymbals were not mass produced in the traditional sense or the same way. Each one was unique and you never knew exactly what you were getting. It might have said: 18” medium ride, or 20” heavy ride etc. All you had for indicators was weight, mostly. I personally think it’s very cool. They’re so unique, like people!
great video on a great subject. that is one of the sweetest rides on earth. the recordings its on is mind boggling . to see it , hear it all these years later is a gift . PJJ sound and feel is the coolest till this day !!!! i really appreciated your effort paul . bravo . p.s. the 'take five ride " was another significant step in cymbal art . thanks. MAKE ME ONE NOW LOL (PAUL):)
I was lucky enough to meet John Riley in italy in 2006, such a great person and teacher as well! the next year during a summer vacancy I ve been in Memphis for a while and I got to spend some time in your shop .... I wish there was also an "Italy drum shop" like yours!
I've heard several K Constantinople cymbals ranging from 20" to 22" ranging from there light to high pitch ratings stamped on their symbols. To me, judging from sound only and not visual appearance the closest sounding ride cymbol in the Zildjian line would be the 21" K Custom Special Dry Ride cymbol, not so much on the crash sound but definitely on the ride sound. In fact, when they mentioned that the old K's had a more dryer sound than this K Constantinople that's exactly what the K 21" custom special dry ride sounds like with also adding slightly more jazz like trash sound.
I have Louie Bellson’s - a cracked Zildjian Swish Knocker - probably no longer produced, and probably that’s exactly what buddy played. Buddy and Louis often used the same lines of cymbals. There is a 22” K con swish you can find sometimes. Really good, not great but good and probably very similar to what buddy rich played or more like Mel’s.
The old Vintage PJJ's cymbal is so much more "complex"... A LOT of little nuances going on - which become less so - cleaner and more focused on the new one... No contest - the Vintage wins hands down!
It is, however the new ones are worth investing in. John mentioned in another of his videos (the ones showcasing his collection) that they will mellow out with age. I have a Constantinople that has changed as I have played it. I am so curious as to how it will sound 30 years from now (if I’m still around! Lol!) as it is already like 8 years old!
The new ones are really good though. I have a full set. Give them some years, some dirt, some tears after being dumped by your lover, some hand oil and grease, and they will get the magic. The new K cons are really excellent
A great video! It's somewhat surreal looking at Riley, who's book "the art of bop drumming" is the basis of nearly all my jazz playing knowledge. It was very fun to hear the similarities between this mythical, and modern renaissance, ride. In 60 years I bet the Constantinople will sound even closer when the metal gets time to develop and the cymbal becomes drier.
Sounds ok. A far cry from the original article though. Lacks the hardness in the attack that the old one effortlessly displays. Also the dirt and patina seem to EQ the old cymbal in a very pleasing way and (perhaps unsurprisingly) the new cymbal has none of that either.
Okay, I know John Riley is a incredible drummer and I can't add anything to what you guys already said about him but for you older cats who have been around for awhile like me... I'll be damned if John isn't the spitting image of Joseph Campanella from the Mannix tv show. He even sounds like him it's really bizarre they simply must be related in some way :-) I have to say regarding the K Constantinople and I'm surprised they didn't talk about this but of course they're pushing a product so they probably wouldn't, but in my opinion I think they should have aged the new K with a patina and took some of the sheen off of it and it would have helped mellow it out some sort of pre-aging like they do with some cymbals which if you're going to do something specific then that's the way to go but I guess they were simply trying to pull whatever was closest to Philly Joe's cymbal from their current catalog I guess so not too bad but not really close let's be honest... Nevertheless, a really nice cymbal but let's keep it real... John playing a garbage can lid would sound like a dream...
Seriously, that is a great idea. Zildjian and Memphis drum shop are completely ignoring these comments, and missing a goldmine of great free product suggestions and information to improve the line. “Pre-Age“ process would be really brilliant if they truly want a PJJ sound.
@@rhythmfield this symbol that they were playing by the way really sounds great I would be tempted to buy it I basically just play Old A's and have a new Morello take fiber issue which is phenomenal but I'm glad somebody is saying these things because sometimes I feel like I am all alone speaking in an echo chamber lol but I talked to all kind of other symbol Geeks like myself who are into these vintage pies and they all say the same thing and you are also saying the same thing as well I just don't think they get enough feedback from the right places. Like with the Take 5 line they should have made it looked older and Pre aged them sort of gave them the a Avedis treatment like they did four five years ago when they reissued those even though it probably just is a tinted coating (which is fine) why couldn't they do the same thing for this and the Morello Take 5 cymbal l as well...? It certainly would help create the vibe even though the sound is the most important thing of course
I thought PJJ was known as one of the few in bop era to use US As instead of Turkish Ks. I imagine it was never exclusive but I thought he preferred higher pitch rides. Roy Haynes may have used As too
I don't know what it is, there something about the old zildjian cymbals and the hammering that they cant recreate no matter how hard they try, anything they turn out looks nothing like it, so naturally it cant sound the same.
Great idea, that would really be much closer than the K con. Foolishly, Zildjian and Memphis are completely ignoring these comments but that is a truly great idea.
What model is the new one? Besides K Constantinople- which? a new model or a Medium thin hi, or lo? or medium? or..Is there a product salesman anywhere in the house?
You could take this clip and send it to Saluda Cymbals and they could come much closer than Zildjian to the original sound and it would cost half the price.
I tried recording with a chain sizzle one time, and recording engineer suggested to take it off. It really sounded like a chain rattling on the ride, not so great… Personal taste thing tho.
Honestly, I always thought Tony Williams had the best ride sound on those old Miles records. Yeah, Joe Jones is cool too, but that TW sound was something else.
Also check out all the records he played on as a sideman on Blue Note during the early/mid sixties, for example those albums by Herbie Hancock (empyrean isles and maiden voyage). His signature playing is all over those albums, complemented by the legendary sound of his ride. Greeting from the Netherlands and take care, George
I'm sorry but I think Mr. John Riley is being soft because he's endorsed by Zildjian. Zildjian is dead. Nothing good coming from them these days. Constantinople's are boring too. The current company vision no way resembles the vision 50 years ago.
I should be delighted that zildjian is spending the time and R&D money to replicate the iconic cymbals of philly and tony. It’s (maybe) a noble effort, but they never even get close....not even CLOSE...to the sound they purport to recreate. These two cymbals don’t bear any resemblance to each other. It really gets on my nerves when these guys try to pass off a machined, mass produced, cymbal as something it’s not. If that is really zildjian’s best effort at recreating a vintage sound, they should just stop.
