The reason retail PvP is BAD 

IMO the biggest problem, at least for the average player is that in retail you literally do nothing outside of CD windows. In Classic Arenas, cooldowns of course help, but you can straight up outplay and kill someone at any point regardless of CDs.

man just make a pvp exclusive balance at this point

On top of that... Another huge problem that I see with Retail PvP (And I believe I saw this from Venruki as well) is that in Classic WoW, now Cataclysm, when I press a damage spell, they actually do damage, you can see the bars moving a little bit and If I play my cards right, in most scenarios I can kill without having 10 DPS Cooldowns activated at the same time. I saw the other day a video from I believe it was Aluneth where he was showing the Fire Mage damage in TWW Beta... He kept using Fireball and the enemy literally took 0 to 0.1% damage out of those Fireballs, then he activated god knows how many CDs and he literally did a 0.1 seconds one shot on the enemy. This means that outside of your absurd burst window, you just can't kill a target, but if you are within your burst window, there's little to no counterplay to that... Now that I think about it, Retail PvP has almost the same flaws as healing in Dragonflight... If you are just healing without CDs, your heals will do very little to a player's bar, then you pop up your CDS and you can top an entire raid from 0 to 100 in 2 to 3 seconds... Burst needs to be nerfed like A LOT... Non burst damage & healing needs to be buffed A LOT, defensive capabilities of Classes for both PvE and PvP content needs to be nerfed by A LOT... Micro Cc's needs to be nerfed by A LOT, mobility needs to be nerfed by A LOT.

The reason there is a such a small PvP community though is because Blizzard for years have focused on PvE Balance at the expense of PvP balance. Since MoP they've made so many changes that have made PvP more and more difficult to engage with as the barrier to entry became greater due to class imbalance and button inflation. PvP would be a much bigger community if Blizzard actually didn't keep ruining PvP with every single change they make to the game. PvE is a few hours a week in a raid, once the raid(s) are done they can either drag themselves through M+ until the following week, or they can jump into Arena/RBGs... Why would they choose PvP when it's just an unfair, unplayable mess...? PvP is Tetail is literally just PvE with micro-CC annoyance.

the only way you could balance that is by changing the way spells work in pvp, or a separate tree just for pvp (which they are not going to do obviously), because if you take away self healing and the AoE M+ becomes unplayable, its a double edge sword.

In my opinion i think its less the aoe damage and more the complexity. There is so much to learn and track while you have an insane amount of keybinds. It puts alot of people off completely.

Man here’s a solution I thought of to stop blizzard from ruining pvp arena by catering to mythic plus. All they have to do is make multiple legendary like items that buff class skills just for pve instances. That way any class and spec can be viable in pve without classes losing class identity in pvp. For example a legendary for a sub rogue that makes shuriken storm bounce each hit. Then another one that maybe makes shadowstrike also hit multiple targets, etc etc and let them equip multiple at a time so they can farm these items and customize builds. This way blizzard doesn’t have to destroy class identity and just let PVErs get items to power their skills instead of giving them all OP identical talents.

and all the micro cc

I mean we don't got the best system in FF14.. But why doesn't WoW just have PvP abilities and PvE abilities be separate? (that's how we do things in FF)

They do not care about PvP. Im really not sure why people are even surprised anymore.

Sure all this is true but the real reason i keep logging out is the 30 mins wait times for solo shuffle

can we talk about the mobility classes have? mage with 10 blinks? rogues with infinite steps and dances? Demon hunter with 5 gap closers? monk with triple roll, teleporting tiger palm, port and fsk?

Introduce M+ Talents. Like PVP Talents. Eg. One Movement Ability to chose, one def CD to choose, one aoe addition to choose. And cut that stuff of regular trees? Or Nerf Cleave Ability effects in pvp...

Some of the talent tree options does take care of it. But if they split out the trees a bit more into pve vs PvP talents, maybe that could resolve it?

Ok first things first, WoW PvP is on the lowest priority, and PvP player base is minority. So do not expect any changes or any response from them, cause they don't care and it does not bring them money, you might see some questionable changes here and there, and that's about it. There are so many FEEDBACK, starting from forums, youtube, reddit and so on. Did they listen one single feedback, even from the best WoW PvP players? Hello no. Low priority = less money. That's that

M+ definitly forcing a uuuugly class/spec design BUT the main problem for majority of player (low-mid rating) is the complexity and the speed of retail arena. in wotlk/cata, i press 3 spell as rogue, and im out of energy, i literally have time to think and plan stuff with my avarage brain! in retail i really cant keep up (2.4cr soloQ and +2.2 in 2/3s... i mean, im not a damn 1.4 cr player 😭)

This is not the reason retail PvP is bad. This is the reason the gatekeeping gladiator community doesn't like retail pvp. The reason retail PvP is bad is that it's not fun to play, the rewards are not worth the chase, and the community is radioactive towards new/fresh blood. Crusader Strike hits as hard in Cata than it does in Dragonflight. It feels good to press in Cata. It feels boring/bad in retail. Damage only being viable during CD usage makes the game boring. Damage is sticky in Cata. Healers don't 5 to 100% someone with a CD. The game is a balance between attrition, burst, and counterplay. It's actually fun. Retail is tedious to the extreme and played at a pace that chases away any fresh talent. CC / micro CC in retail is out of control. The #1 complaint from new players is "I can't play my character." Reducing CC durations doesn't help when you can still chain 15s out of 20s of CC together. MMR is shit. No one cares about your rating other than the rewards attached to it. But the gladiator base will gatekeep people at 1800 on 4-5 alts chasing away new players. Some do it because stomping newbs feels good. Some do it to sell carries. Maybe 5-10 years ago trying to make eSport Arena was a good idea. That ship has sailed. No one is impressed. Just make BGs the main content mode, make season titles the only rating exclusive content. Watch how fast people's animosity for 3s and SQ is exposed. You people are wildly out of touch. "Too much AoE" isn't even in the top 10. If you told me 90% of the player base relative to Cata/MoP/WoD had quit PvP entirely, I would not remotely be shocked. Do things to bring those people back, and stop listening to the 1% of the player base that has chased away the other 90%. Sick of the glad-Dads.

90% of the playerbase plays Mythic+ because Blizzard doesn't develop for PvP. Nobody plays PvP because Blizzard doesn't develop it. Blizzard doesn't develop PvP because nobody plays it. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Blizz should go for "in pvp *text*" on spells and passives. Like ff14 or lost ark does, some spells works different in pvp and pve (i dunno how to balance world pvp, but this is not popular anyway) areas. Best way to balance pvp and make it great again is to do some main dps and cc spells vector-like (plunderstorm) in pvp

Its weird how quickly people forget. In legion the talent rows were largely designed as they mentioned in the name of "meaningful choice" where you'd have rows with aoe talents sitting next to single target talents and people HATED this because it never felt like a choice.

Maybe just disable some talents in Arena/PvP for reduced AoE and balance everything after changing this. Should be kind of minor for them to change that but no idea really.

Balance between PvE and PvP is a thing, but at the same time... WoW has less incoming new players as time went by. It's basically the same people who've been playing this game 10+ years, and it's so hard for new players to get into it. It's just a nature of game being really old (Player base blows up -> people lose interest due to various reasons, work, kids, new games, etc -> old players stick to the game and dominate -> ratio between old vs. new player skews -> rinse and repeat until only old players remain) Who wants to BUY this game and Pay $15 every month just to get stomped. Yeah. I'd rather play something that's free or cheaper and equally as fun...

WoW is a PvE game. Almost nobody plays PvP. If you want good PvP content either go play a PvP game or try to push them to COMPLETELY separate the gamemode right? It should be standalone content clearly IF they want to bother with it at all (they clearly, to this point, haven't wanted to bother)

For whatever it’s worth, the self healing/off healing/ defensives is also a problem in m+ in many peoples eyes.

agree, where in fairness I have to say that I haven't played WoW myself for a long time. Context PvP-Aoe, I think aoe attacks should only ever be worthwhile if you hit multiple targets. But I had the feeling it doesn't matter just spam and it's still good. generally there is also a lot of passive aoe. Context PvE-Aoe, I think it's a pity all classes got everything: kick, cc so that nobody was excluded. And how does PvE look like pull everything and spam Aoe. miss the time when focus target, cc 1-2 other targets and interrupts evenutell the last one.

Mythic plus is not the main issue though it does play a small part. The real issue wow pvp is bad is because for over 10 years now we have a bunch of people living in only one form of pvp and think its the only version that matter. Arena is a hige problem for pvp and is the reason why it cant evolve. This is further impacted by blizzards catering all pvp only to arena players while leaving world pvp and battleground players to just fight for whatever they managed have time for. Arena is a very tunnel vision version of pvp. It lacks the flexibility of both world pvp and bgs. Being upset because everyone is doing aoe due to mythic plus and i lt affecting arena gameplay is pretty ignorant in my opinion. When you do rated bgs you have some classes that do well with aoe and some that hit hard with single target. Both are needed to cover all situations you can run into. Go and watch all the talent builds for arena and you will find nothing but boring single target specs very little aoe and sometimes cleave. Arena cant evolve because its relegated to small numbers. So anything outside of that doing anything different will throw it out of whack. In tbc blizzard would tune arena around 5v5 because it mirrored dungeon groups. There were plenty of post with them telling players they dont want to tune for 2v2 and 3v3. Now today they tune all of pvp based around 2s and 3s arena which absolutely bones all other forms of pvp. I say all this to drive home the point that arena is not ALL of pvp and making the statements that guy on X made just shows how poisoned the pvp community is by only considering one form of pvp viable and blizzard doubling down on that.

There is no other competitive game on the face of the earth that makes you get dicked down for 50 games before you can even be on the same gear level as your enemies. It works as a cycle too, once you get the items you do it to the players that don't. lol. Try gearing for the first time NOT on day 1 of the season. Even if they fixed the "M+ balancing" the biggest problem is that new people can't even fucking play the game!

Classic WoW plays like a MMORPG, Retail WoW plays like an ARPG.

There aren't enough key binds for Cataclysm. Cata has more button abilities than retail making "cata actually retail" VS retail DF" sad.

Can't play evoker in classic :'(

Too many abilities = many are borderline uneeded/useless. Too many damage modifiers = bad base damage/good damage with modifiers OR good base damage/OP damage with modifiers. No way around this, pick one. Too many micro CCs = stressing experience by not being able to control your character when the point is to have fun, it's a game afterall.

Arena is the mini game they don't care about pvp.

Ironically the major issues with pvp are the same issues M+ players are having. Defensive and offensive cooldown bloat and cc bloat is the exact problem people are having with M+ atm. Right now a majority of people complaining about the war within from a pve perspective are all people complaining about the fact that nothing in the game is gradual anymore, classes only do damage during their cooldowns. People only take damage in amounts varing from ignorable to literally killing you if you don't have a defensive up. Then the cc bloat, so many classes have 4+ different cc tools so now most mobs in dungeons have a cast or require you to cc them or they just delete someone. Blizzard created a problem with talent trees which was giving everyone access to niche spec utility and defensives which is hurting both M+ and pvp. So lets not say M+ players are happy with the state of the game either, especially healers its just as miserable as healing pvp you either are playing with monkeys who never press defensives or your spending the entire game playing for damage because nobody can die when everyon has defensives up and no offensive cds.

Sentences that are flooded with absolute statements are never "very well said".

Good point but part of me senses this is mage or RMP propaganda with some of the top mage players in the pvp community coming together to talk about AOE in arena. Why is Frost Mage in a 3v3 environment considered to be the gold standard for wow pvp? Seems like when people talk about good expansions when pvp was good they defer to the class design of frost mage lol.

To be fair the 90/10 wouldn’t be as skewed if the PvP felt better. I dunno if you’ve played as a caster in retail arena but it’s a horrible experience. Not only are you susceptible to all the CCs but all the micro ccs/kicks are specifically designed to shut you down too. Kicks don’t bother melee so all the CC in the game can be zeroed in on you to shut you down. It’s an extremely frustrating experience.

Blizzard needs to put more work on the table, and make 2 different action bars and skillset loadout, with different skill effects appropriate to pvp , like FF14, 1 loadout for Pve, and 1 loadout for PvP, period.

we need a PVP version of the game where its also pvp balanced focused + add plunderstorm to that version of the game please aswell while at it where its just pick your class/built of talent & gear and click que battleground: no grinding, no lvls, no dungeons its all only battlegrounds/arenas: also everyone got same itemlvl stats too so its fair on gear/items too and balanced sololy around that no addons and have all the important stuff built within the game, remove all the bloat and debloat the game overall PVP in WoW "could" be more fun than a moba where a character is like only 4 abilities and often too limited what they can do but also not need +30 abilities : vanilla to cata was a good sweetspot

PvP has literally just been a DPS race for several expansions now. You just press CDs as they come up and pump out your rotation. There's really not more nuance than that, even at the highest levels.

I think pvp needs a clear seperation in gear or even talents as examples : ffxiv and lost ark ?

Blizzard is bad at balancing. That is why. It is their fault. They haven't been able to do it in any of their games for any meaningful amount of time

Every class doing everything is such bad design for a MMORPG. Even SoD falls in that direction now, there's nothing vanilla left about it. Everyone has everything, and the power creep is 100x what vanilla is all about (slow pace, long journey, very weak for a very long time, each class very strong/weak in some areas even geared at 60).

PVP in Dragonflight is just Mythic+. It takes 3 minutes to duel a player if you counterplay correctly with your defensives. Everything is just about maintaining personal buffs or debuffs on a target and then releasing the stacks. It's really forcing people to burst in certain windows instead of when they feel the optimal positioning is achieved. The biggest problem with Rated pvp imo is smurfing and boosting. When you're 1800 and facing almost all gladiator players, it really puts the average player off.

AOE is fine in arena, people say it’s “not what arena is supposed to be” but this is only true for comps like RMP. Aff lock in Cata is all about aoe. Same with spriest, even warrior and DK. This is just a bunch of old washed guys reminicising on the days of Cata where they could just brainlessly win RMP games in 90 seconds or less. Only 5 good dps specs in Cata = Sub Rogue, Aff Lock, Feral, Marks Hunter, Fire Mage. I assure you this is not better than retail. It’s just nostalgia for outdated old guys like bigmoran

meanwhile bg players >.>

Couldn't they just have specialized skills and talents specifically for arena/pve. So when you enter arena the tool tips are different

One big problem is all the fucking addons (not just with pvp but for pve too), they should all be removed or integrated into the game. And there are too many (and often changing) abilities to keep track of, and thirdly is gear. Imo geared pvp should be a separate mode and the default mode should be everyone has the same gear. Maybe its fun for like the top 1% the way it is now, but for average players its extremely hard to get into, even for me who has been playing the game since vanilla. A lot of the problems in pvp exist in the pve endgame content too in some extent, too many addons required, too many mechanics and shit to keep track of. The better the addons become, the more complicated they make the encounters. That and for whatever reason they have been catering to a top 1-5% elite player base rather then the majority. Just imagine showing a small gameplay image or video of a raid or pvp, to a non-wow player, trying to convince them to try it out, the amount of addons ui-elements and mechanics on screen would make most uninterested immediately.

Just make a seperate Pvp talent page and a seperate PVE talent page - remove pvp gear as it just ends up gatekeeping new players and have the pvp resistances and ilvl built into the pvp talent tree “take this choice node and improve your pvp ilvl to 528” - Maybe you can add special effects or make conquest purely for cosmetic items.

PVP sucks bc of one word, "addons". its literally cheating. you can see your opponents every move. What other game does that? u can see all their cds and everything. Its down right insane. It adds a unnecessary layer of skill to the game. What is that skill u ask? Effectively using the cheat codes provided to beat your opponent. The cheat codes I am referring to are addons. Again wtf. If you can't see that addons are completely nutty and insane to have inside a video game, especially pvp, u are the problem. Wow players take pride in uses all these training wheels. its sad tbh. Even PVErs use addons like crack cocaine. If u remove addons the devs will have to make the game simplier. The reason the game is so complicated is bc the devs have to design the game to beat the cheat codes they all allow to be added in. Sometimes I play wow and think to myslef, wtf.

But just because you can do AOE builds doesn’t mean you can’t just make a single target prio build AKA a raid build?

It’s not the damage profiles. It’s the reward structure, that you can’t Smurf and that more players would prefer to PvE over PvP. If you have just 30 minutes to an hour to play the game and you want to earn some gear or progression towards some gear then it’s just far more lucrative, easier to get into and you’ve got a lot more players at your disposal to m+ rather than PvP. This is a community problem, a reward structure problem and an accessibility problem. Not a mechanical one.

Make retail PVE only. They are not going to dedicate resources to make pvp only rules. There are games dedicated to straight pvp go there to get your fix

For those who have an ego in m+ because of all the aoe damage they do, well now you know all your damage is a lie.

Just make a tournament style server already focusing on arenas, solo que, duels and rbgs. Balance the game around that.

Wow pvp is solo shuffle now, i get it if youre a streamer, got active pvp friends or in a large pvp guild you can do 2s or 3s. For the rest of us RSS is the most viable way to do arena. 30 minute queues because blizzard still thinks 3s with a healer is the way pvp should be os whack. Id take RSS as 2v2(dps only)with less rounds less conquest but more games per hour any fay.

mage and rogue problem, i dont care . zug zug cleave always been my thing

how is it compared to sod? because sod pvp was a joke

As a rival disc priest. I love pvp rn. But that’s just me

Use the system the GW2, and im sure other mmos use. Just make pvp completely its only seperate instance with its own balancing.

Thats why they made soloqrbg, it will replece arena for most players wbo enjoy pvp, bg always was lesss salty, and more fun

I stopped pvping once every class gained heals and interrupts. Pvp was much better when you had to depend on others to succeed as a team.

what happens is they cater to you and many others

But the devs... they not like us.

pvp should have their own talents and talent trees ... that's it, problem solved :D

you just make pvp talent trees that way the pve ones cant be used in pvp and vice versa

M+ would feel fine with cata classes/abilities/talents. Blizzard is on a 15 year trip to the same spot.

Pvpers don’t want to hear it but… arena is a trash game mode and only people who suck at mobas like playing it.

Evryone like evryone who see this video go on support menu in wow and submit bug and submit suggestion to them to watch this video . IF U WANT PVP TO BE BETTER WE ALL NEED WORK SO THAT HAPPEN

This guys doesn't know what he's talking about - Pikaboo probably

Mate; I had to go 3 levels deep just to find your video. Theres too many people making reaction videos. And Asmon making a reaction video is practically an original which others react to. Fk modern internet.

I like yo cut G

Mythic+ ruined the game. Every single problem in retail can be traced back to it.

Yap yap yap washed

You don't even take into consideration that maybe a ton of people like the new playstyle for arena.. you make cc too important your comp matters too much. Most of us don't play 12 hours a day with the ability to play with any class they want at the drop of a dime. Current system is fine yall are just on some Hella back in my day vibes no one cares

AOE is cool

😮😮😮😮😮

That's because blizz don't care about PVP I gave up too and went to mythic + because you're fighting a loosing battle , but here's the solution copy ff14s way of PVP boom solved.

Why can't they just tune aoe spells to do significant less damage in pvp?