As for the pity 'love', it's really more of a power dynamic thing really and always remember that Asian man usually really really prefer submissive women.. I think it also boils down to Confucians teachings which also played a big role in Japan then. Women were simply expected to be dependent on their spouse throughout their lives really. As a man in Asian culture, you're expected to be superior in every way possible when compared to your female counterparts and it's true even today and that's why highly educated women find it hard to get married in Asian countries due to the gap in education level or even just a matter of occupational prestige difference too much in a potential mate. So you can already see how big of a thing it is now still in Asian society and imagine we go back a few hundred years. :D As for genji, we must remember the author's perspective and also that genji himself was a real charming lad anyways LMAO so it's really more fanfic than I would assume reality. So yuh just take everything with a pinch of salt really and that's all I have to say.
@@Sosuke0727 as I said, it's a stereotype rather than a reality.. and quite often, women who act stupid and helpless are only pretending to be that way to get what they want or to avoid doing actual work. Genuinely stupid people (like my upstairs neighbor who has Fetal Alcohol Syndrome) are usually obnoxious.
I'm chinese and that weakness thing is kinda true. There's a thing called "leftover women" in china which are women that still aren't married after 30, and unexpectedly these women aren't ugly or stupid or anything, but because they are too independent or too strong and it makes men feel like she doesn't need a boyfriend so a lot of guys tend to stay away from strong women because it made the guys seem weaker or more pathetic.
Yeah I heard in the news about leftover women in China. I also heard that leftover women are forced to marry village men because some population issues..
Its still like this today. Girl idol groups that targets male audience will be meek, vulnerable and cute. Male idol groups that targets female audience will be soft, somewhat effeminate and Cute. Girl idol group that targets women will be strong and confident. Male celebrities that targets male audience will also be strong, reserved and confident.
@jamaicah joaquin they might be related but they are not that similar, Kawaii culture focuses on cuteness and sometimes may include "cute" flaws like clumsiness and shyness, but that is as far as it goes
It is more "kawai sou" with one "i" but it is pretty close indeed! They even share kanji characters! 可愛い (kawaii) which means cute 可哀想 (kawaiso) which means "pitiful" or "poor thing" They share the kanji ka: 可 which actually means "approval" "acceptable" "allowed" or "be in favor of"
I'm not Japanese but I always thought or 可愛 as literally "lovable". 可 gives the "-able" part and 愛 means love. Together it means sth/someone you can (or easy for you to) love, meaning lovely. In this way 可哀想 would be 可 "-able", 哀"sad", 想"think" meaning someone you can (or easy for you to) think about in a sad way, meaning pitiful.
Actually, this isn't really true. You're looking at the "romaji" of the words, which is a horrible way to grasp the meaning of them 可 means "able to", so "可愛い" means "able to be loved", with the い being indicative of an adjective. By the same token, "可哀想" means "able to be pitied". What you're saying is like saying every word with "-able" in it is related.
I've noticed in the modern Chinese novels I've read that they have the idea of pathetic/ weak= lovely. Lots of descriptions about how 'tender' a woman or child is, and how they look close to tears a lot, and are so, so fragile, like butterfly wings, and how they 'tremble'. Lots of hospital scenes for the delicate maiden, even for extremely minor injuries or common colds (I've never read one that didn't have at least 1 trip to the hospital) and fantasies about how she'd bruise or break. There's also a strong concept of neediness = lovely in the stories. So, being demanding or reliant on another person is attractive, especially when the other person can provide what is demanded. In the stories I've read, children who demand indulgence and act spoiled (while being ever so "tender" like a baby dumpling) are seen as more lovable than independent, low-maintenance children. They want you to act spoiled, because it means you want them to dote on and cherish you. It appears there is a sense of power/pride in being able to meet all of the neediness needs of your beloved object, which is probably why the ideal and stereotypical Chinese romance novel male lead is some superpowered, celebrity-famous billionaire who also models, moonlights as a mafia king pin, owns half the country, and is so extremely devoted, they'd give you anything you desire. Average joe characters are pretty nonexistent (I've never actually seen one as a main male lead in a Chinese internet novel). Shopping trips and giving someone an unlimited credit card are pretty common scenes in these stories.
Even modern novels huh? Sounds terrible 😅. Yeah it's the old timey way of seeing girls as "delicate." I remember once my parents were quite surprised seeing my friend drink and hold her liquor. I'm like yeah she's an adult 👀
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I think it's pretty common in Western culture too, but through a longer timespan. The man first appears dominant, assertive, maybe even aggressive at first. Then, he reveals his vulnerable side (some traumatic past or getting hurt by something) to gain her trust and empathy. A lot of storylines are like that.
Worth pointing out! Kawaii means cute, as many know, but it also can mean pitiful. Also, I remember reading an excerpt from a Heian lady-in-waiting's diary in which she commented that that the lady she served had seemed too enthusiastic during an encounter with a lover and really should have struggled more. Yeah, that's definitely a thing.
I thought nice was the equivalent of not being a asshole. I don't know what other women like, but I aint into the macho I'll smack you around type. I also dislike men who don't work on themselves at all. How about just being a normal decent person?
@@march9177 Nope "Nice guy" is a therm for self proclaimed nice people who are still jerks. usually feeling entitled to sex after being a decent human for a short while. only a short while. if you shoot them down they will aggressively try to coax you into the sexual act they feel entitled to
This theme is still pretty topical now in Japan. Arguably a lot of that culture didn't disappear, and even now in Japan, many polls done by both men and women indicate that in terms of sexual advances, no does mean yes. Obviously in Japan rape is illegal, however Japan still gets a lot of flack because in their own definition, because no means yes, no only means no if the victim fights back/resists violently. It's not enough to push off or pull away, because by not fighting to the point of drawing blood, the perpetrator can still interpret the no's as yes. Recently there were a few cases in the news of fathers raping their daughters and getting away with it because technically in each case the girls didn't violently beat up their own fathers and technically even though they may feel compelled to follow orders of their fathers (the coersion bit), since teenagers don't usually listen to their parents anyway, clearly they didn't need to submit to what their fathers ordered if they didn't want to. Unfortunately these stories don't get as much attention as they deserve, so I don't know if anything is going to change soon. Even though I'm just a high school English teacher here, I try my best to teach my kiddos about consent in other aspects of their lives and I can only hope it carries over.
Thank you for this comment. I love Japan, but I do agree that it has a sexual assault problem. It doesn't get nearly enough attention. Statistics do show that Japan has a very low amount of rape crimes, and I do think that it probably is low compared to other countries, as is crime in general in Japan. But you have to wonder how many sex crimes are unreported, or not classified correctly.
@@Linfamy I come from the future, where a pandemic ravages the world. Yet the president has found the solution: "If we didn't test people, we would have less cases". So it goes, it's not a problem if you classify it as okay.
I mean, Edward Cullen from Twilight is a real creep too, sneaking into a girls room and watching her sleep and stuff. But it's romantically framed, which makes it ok to break into a girls room and watch her sleep apparently. Maybe it's the same with Genji. It's creepy when you think about it, but it's written in a romantic way
That seduction technique had worked just fine on me in the past, then I realized we were living in the 21st century, and that is called 🌠"emotional manipulation" 🌠
@@animalkingdom2871 Males these days just don't have these skills anymore, they expect to be served first by the girls without doing anything (this would work if you are hot and attractive) or they may do some favour only to be friendzoned because what they are doing is simply getting favour not attracting, weak manipulation.
That "No did not always mean No" ideology is still quite popolar in the culture where I grew up and let me tell you that is quite an annoyance for girls.
@@mrinalkiran9105 I once had a guy approach me at 10pm, while I was going home from night classes and was try to "get to know me" and tell his feelings, and then proceed to stalk me for the next month, becuse me telling him No wasn't enough or credible enough I guess. The worst part is he probably thought he was being romantic or manly or something 🙄🙄
this reminds me of the song "baby it's cold outside. Just like women in the Heian period, western women in the 30s/40s were expected to deny romantic advances. in the song you can hear the women consistently saying that she needs to go home, but the man tries to persuade her with reasons to stay " (i.e. "it's cold outside")
They are literally talking about her reputation in that song. She wants to stay. He wants her to stay. Even if no sex happens people will talk tho and it could basically destroy her life. There was a lot of shit around that time. He isn't pursuing sex so much as offering a reasoning for her to give... The person she was expected to notify of her whereboughts. While not officially a thing... It was a thing at that time. Especially for more well to do women. We still see it in our culture today where women are expected to do that more often than guys and it is a much bigger deal if they do not etc. Just not quite the earth shattering scarlet letter it was at the time that song was written. The chorus of them both singing "but baby its cold outside" is an expression of mutual wish for her to stay. It is literally an illustration of all the things that would be brought up to stack against her. It was that serious an issue at the time. He is actually being respectful. I hate how sjws take that song out of context. The culture was much more strict back then.
If she had really wanted to go home she would have called someone to get her or left already etc. The fact the conversation was even happening was her wish to stay. That said your not wrong. You were socially obligated to play hard to get tho many did there own thing anyway but it was different and also probably obvious all at once. The idea being if he didn't want to fight for you that he didn't really want you. There are still remnants of that today in places, usually religious groups that hold virginity in high regard.
Poet Anderson : I just want to point out that in the movie where it was used, it wasn't just sung by the primary couple where the woman token protested and the man persuaded. Another couple in the movie sing it too, where the woman is the persuader and the man is the token protester. While the second couple's reversal was partially played for laughs, it still works well to show it was about token resistance and about rumors. The movie is named Neptune's Daughter and is from 1949. The biggest issue with the song these days is that as it is so out of context that a lot of people imagine it being sung by two strangers who just recently met, while the song is actually the song of an established and very loving couple. The "what's in this drink" phrase had notably shifted its default meaning too, same way "gay" doesn't just mean joyous, "boner" isn't slang for "mistakes", and "make love to me" is no longer a request to merely say sweet nothings.
Yeah, but we know the writer never had a relationship with a millionaire, for one, so it's really strictly her (completely off-base) imagination. Murasaki Shikibu, though? She was a high-level court lady, the same as many of Genji's love interests, and she would've slept with several people in positions of power in court like Genji too. Odds are, her novel is way more true to life (and her own perspective on it) than Fifty Shades of Grey is. Of course, I bet there are some young ladies from the country/not yet up-to-date with the capital's dating style that's traumatised by their 'no doesn't always mean no' standards.
@@Marewig my point is even female authors write shitty love interests it doesn't make it okay because a woman wrote it. The problem with Christian is his controlling behavior which trust me doesn't require money.
@@scarletrose2880 The difference I think is where it's clear that Fifty Shades was shitty the moment it came out and it was practically pilloried. We have no idea what happened in Heian Japan, and if the majority of people find it great read partly because of its verisimilitude. I certainly can't get into the mindset of the era, but most people from the time might think it to be great, and that those who have a different view are in the minority.
Wow, I LOVE that you actually drew the Heian woman’s Junihitoe ! You didn’t have to, but it’s beautiful and I appreciate it! The Art is getting better and better! 😊👏👏
I'm half Japanese and half Chinese, I lived in China till I was 17,I fall in love with different kind of people and I wouldnt say pity is now something Chinese are trying to aim for.😅
I'm 1/3 Chinese, Japanese, and Filipino born in the PH. My desire for physical skinship has been getting stronger, but my romantic feelings are dead. Am I screwed?
@@jomo5800 Nah mate, Feeling actual romantic attraction for someone is a bit hard,for me I really have to know them. So maybe that's what happening to you?
@@thedemoninshadow8503 Well there are other novels out there like "The tale of Shipwrecked Sailor" or "Tale of Sinuhe" in ancient Egypt that were also written like 3000 years ago. So I am not sure if the "Tale of Genji" is the first one of all but it surely is one of the first. Also what we call "incest" today was not the same as back then. Plus in Heian Japan they did not like couples like brother and sister or parent and child etc but in other places like ancient Egypt it was considered not only pretty normal but also the norm in the cases of royalty so it is all part of perspective actually.
Yes, pity-love is a thing. 憐愛、憐惜、憐香惜玉 All these words/phrases literally mean pity-love and are still used to a certain extent today. Many of the famous Chinese beauties whether fictional or historical had this quality that makes them more attractive. For example, one of the four ancient beauties, 西施, was said to frown from her frequent heart-aches due to her heart condition. And the frowning was supposed to increase her beauty. (On the flip-side, 東施 was said to be an ugly woman who attempt to imitate 西施's frowning and made a fool of herself, giving us the phrase today 東施效顰, meaning to imitate something poorly and counter productively). Another famous example of this frail-me-pity-me-love is 林黛玉 from the classic novel Dream of the Red Chamber. She's described as beautiful, frail and melancholic. She would get upset when her flowers die and she would bury them, crying, while also lamenting that no one would "pity-love" her the same way she does with her dead flowers.
Thot Slayer I’m not so sure about that. There are quite a few men who want to fulfill a protector/provider role so there’s some draw to the idea of someone who you can protect because they’re weak. However it’s not top of the list and I don’t think people would want to admit that out loud because it would be somewhat frowned upon given today’s current climate surrounding gender. Also it doesn’t go both ways. Men being weak is seen as undesirable.
Ever been to a club? His behaviour is not much different than that of Western players. And Western women too often than not give in to those players who keep on pushing until she makes out
Yeah... Some western cultures are also very similar. Not scottish tho. Lol I always wanted a strong partner whose ego was not bruised by a strong partner. A weak partner cannot have your back. A strong partner can. It is also relevant to say that this developed in different conditions and scottish women did not have the option of being weak until much later and then it was more forced upon them rather than an option.
I read about sabishii (loneliness+sadness), amae (childish act to make people want to care for you), and omoiyari (reciprocal act of compassion). It is still in Japan today and practiced in everyday life.
In the 80's 90's Hong Kong / Taiwan pop culture, the "忧郁“ ("You-yu" Mandarin / "Yek-wat" Cantonese ) quality is valued in a pop-star. "You-yu / Yek-wat" literally means "depressed / sad", a male / female pop-star would took sad looking photo shot for magazine and their fans would go crazy.
The Heian period is similar to what I studied about to the Romantic Era in Europe where women were wearing bonnets that limited their vision, corsets that didn't allow them to bend over to pick something that they've dropped, etc- it enforced chivalrous actions because the women's fashion literally constrained them from doing much without help.
That's interesting! I see one difference, chivalry was dead in the Heian Period. Men generally did not help out women. There was a case of a prince who liked to help his wife step out from her palanquin, and people saw it as highly unusual. It seems such acts were rare.
There are people currently who wear corsets because they like historical fashion, and you'd be surprised what they can do. And by surprised, I mean they can do pretty much anything you or I can in normal clothes. I can send you videos on this if you would like.
I think it's really sweet, in a way. They liked vulnerability. They recognized that we are all flawed people and if someone is willing to be genuinely vulnerable with you and you with them and you both want to take care of each of other and see the other grow... well that sounds like a really high quality relationship. At least, that's how I would like to think of it
I'm fascinated by other societies like this. It really difficult to judge a society from within our own, so I try to get a perspective by looking at how other societies functioned and to see if our society truly is as equal and fair as we claim it to be
Tbh I see a lot more similarities here in the stuff that's pointed out as different. Princesses get rescued, but also the Florence Nightingale effect. Like in Back to the Future, the future mom falls in love with someone because she rescued him. Or a lot of people value "sensitive" in a partner, or the whole trope where the girl sees the guy being picked on and stands up for him. And the whole "let me tell you at length how much I'm suffering with longing" is unfortunatly still a thing and does work sometimes (although really only if the person found you already attractive)... And the strategy for dealing with it isn't much different, if you keep engaging with "noooo" then the person will keep trying to wear you down, you generally have to go with something closer to complete disinterest and disengagement (or you can try something more offensive, like reacting with disgust).
It comes from the Japanese aesthetic called: aware. Finding the beauty in something sad, pitiful, fading. A bad example, but how worn makeup looks effortless and pleasant rather than overdone perfection (depending on the situation). How dramatic, dying scenes can be iconic. And so on. Today we wouldn't call it weakness but vulnerability. And that is quite attractive. Let's you know more about the person you talk to. Like, if your crush told you their mother passed away and they struggled - you won't run away but get drawn closer, to console, comfort and embrace them. Something like that. Like a bruised flower you respect for surviving the storm.
Random Heian man: Oh please, I'll die without you. I can't live without you! Me: Then perish. (Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be able to fit in that time period. )
I don't think it's necessarily pity. Ok consider this situation, you meet this girl who you know is flawed but she tries to hide her flaws from other people but decides to show it only in front of you, and it can be indicative of a trust that is established between the two of you, and now you both can work out how to fix it together. It's a invitation to a sort of teamwork that is part of the reason that a relationship stays strong. A great example of this kind of relationship is the couple Akagi and Kaji from tsurezure children (it's an anime). It will be really boring to be with a person who has got everything figured out..... that's at least according to a humble indian man such as myself (my views may not reflect the views of indian men at large)
Instead of being bored of being with a perfect person, I would be more terrified of what kind of skeleton(s) that person is hiding in their closet since you know, the stronger the light is cast the darker the shadow is created.
that actually explain so many weird anime couples and ships... Like, the main guys always fall for the weaker girl, which many times is also the weakest of the girls, and he always wants to protect her, from like minute 1, not even after weeks or months of knowing each other. And same with girls really, the pathetic insisting guy that somehow gets compassion in the end- trope is also pretty common.
OMG! Thank you so much for this! I was reading Tale of Genji a few weeks ago and i notice what you said on this video. The way they behave with women was so different that i have my doubts on reading the entire book, actually there's literally one whole chapter about different "types" of respectable women. So annoying at first, but now i saw this i think i can give Genji a second chance :)
Speaking of "protection fetish", I recall in Brother's Karamazov in which Dimitri says something like "she's not in love with me but with the idea of saving me". Just wanted to say that there is a connection to Western psychology(?). Also reminds me of Beauty and Beast.
Check out a niche subject in history called history of emotions, sounds like you have, but for anyone interested in the field. Japanese romance gets stranger it goes back. Same for European, as you can see with Arthurian romance. Also, nostalgia was fatal in the 19th century by some accounts.
@@Linfamy in the few courses I took in the subject, there were accounts from the US and Britain about such occurrences. emotionsblog.history.qmul.ac.uk/2011/10/dying-of-nostalgia/
@@Linfamy From that article you can see a little how what was called nostalgia was associated completely with homesickness at the time, and it became associated with shell shock, and today a form of ptsd. So changing definitions of things matters in how its being reviewed, just to make things even more confusing. I wish I had the source, but what comes to mind is a ridiculously complicated story of Japanese romance from the 6th century A.D., where a Japanese aristocrat was married to a woman by their families, and she was miserable. He had a concubine who gave birth to a daughter while he was away, and then the concubine died, and the woman who hated him and was his wife adopted the daughter as her own and never told him, since he would visit so infrequently. Only much later did he find out, and in her writings about the experience it was adopting the other womans daughter that she came to the conclusion she loved him, and he became awed at what she had done without him knowing. If I recall it made him cry, and that was apparently a big deal.
In Chinese culture there is such as thing as 憐愛, also known as pity love, mostly comes from the affection towards someone or something that is relatively powerless or innocent. Perhaps a good literary example would be the character Lin Daiyu in "Story of the Stone" novel, where Lin Daiyu is emotional, physically delicate.
Wow! I'm glad I wasn't born in that era. It would be annoying as hell if a person doesn't understand a simple " NO". Edit: I'm the new person from IG. So, Hi again! 😋😋
OMG I actually found your channel through that video you mentioned in the end! I love what I'm seeing so far, the stories are so interesting! Keep being awesome!! ♥️
If someone had said something like that to me that they would just die if they couldn't have me I would personally give them a steak knife or tell them they still have their belt and shoelaces
In my opinion Genji wasn't necessarily good or bad, more like imperfect and human, impacted by his family, stituation, luck (and lack of it), his feelings and desires and all sorts of things any other person is impacted by. You can definitely sympathize with him, and he was also described as a very attractive person as far as I know, but the story and his personality is more complex than that. He certainly did some questionable things. I think this makes it an amazing and interesting story. Thanks for the videos, peace ❤️
Wow! I'm just thrilled to be learning about old-time Japanese seduction techniques from Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo Christmas 🎄 💩!!! Thanks Matt and Trey!
If I lived in a society with that complicated and technical of a courtship system, I would sponaneously combust from psychoanalyzing what to do when. I'm already socially awkward enough in contemporary culture. No👏thank👏you👏, Heian courtship!
man... ive been watching for 30mins alrdy and none of it are boring... i have watch tons of videos alrdy lol. wish i knew your channel for a long time ago
Vulnerability makes you see people in their most genuine moments, which can be really attractive. Much more than mind games and elusiveness that some people adopt
I really want to see this but I'm saving it to watch with my wife, both been real busy lately. I'll upvote now however as I'm sure it's interesting and funny.
Similar to the previous comment, here in Sarawak, you have to fight a powerful Headhunter or be the the powerful Headhunter but need the love interest's blessings. that's the *Dayaks* for you, But that's a veryyy old tradition, we don't do that anymore because it seems vile and cruel. Btw I'm an *Iban* which is also one of the *Dayak people* that practiced that tradition a long time ago
I kind of feel like this is related to how in the west some people love feeling like their partner is completely useless in some important field where they can be the hero to their partner. I wouldn't call it the norm thankfully, but especially the older generations seem to enjoy the "oh (s)he wouldn't know what to do without me in the kitchen/garage/whatever". It's a more extreme version of being complementary where it's not that they don't do it anywhere as well as their partner, but that they're completely incompetent in the field unlike their partner. It's not pity, but it definitely is them loving to be so desperately needed. Which is why I feel it's related to the pity, because to me the pity over someone "weak" desperately needing you sexually seems related to the someone "weak" desperately needing you for non-sexual reasons. Both feed the ego of those who fetishize the emotional power differential.
