No video :(

the sniper dot is a lie🤥

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Music: BananaSlug ( / user-426347780 )
channel discord --- / discord
channel patreon --- / shounic
channel tracker --- trello.com/b/L...
[ todo list / current progress on upcoming videos / channel roadmap ]
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custom files --- pastebin.com/r...
[ hud / crosshairs / hitsound / killsound / gfx cfg ]
big thanks to:
bakugo, mitch for their contributions in research
Gold, loudlux, sintyhos for scripting help
FAQ:
Q: How did you make that? What editing software do you use?
A: I use Adobe Photoshop, Premiere Pro & After Effects. Photoshop for image editing and thumbnails. Premiere Pro for compositing and After Effects for motion graphics (the fancy animations).

Опубликовано:

28 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 586

@shounic Год назад

just fyi, with valve flip flopping on the quickswitch thing, it seems like i might as well wait for them to come to a conclusion? so it could be some time until i make the video covering the recent updates :)

@seronymus Год назад

NOOOO REEEEEEEEEEEEE WE NEED ANALYSIS NOW (apparently from file size a LOT of backend code was reworked)

@soundwave8475 Год назад

I'm more curious about the Pyro finger Polygon, only video I found on it is a meme

@5spec Год назад

I don't really see what's wrong with this

@RedxYeti Год назад

Cool, I didn't know about the bug in the first place so i'd love to see your analysis.

@zack1stplayer Год назад

They didn't flip-flop though, they fixed Quickswap conflicts, but broke some valid options in the process, then fixed the broken valid options.

@mauroghen Год назад

So the more “jumpy” the sniper dot, you can tell how far the sniper is, neat.

@oktayyildirim2911 Год назад

Oh, that's actually cool to know!

@nixel1324 Год назад

Which in turn can help with estimating their aim! Jumpier dot = safer to run past!

@thunderspark1536 Год назад

Facinating

@Saad-ih3ys Год назад

Useless actually.

@oktayyildirim2911 Год назад

@@Saad-ih3ys What makes you say that?

@muffinman9018 Год назад

Shounic's gonna one day explain the mechanics of pressing W, how that gets conveyed to the server, and how it is broken

@lugui Год назад

it actually is an interesting process

@GardenNomme Год назад

that's probably true lol

@Not-So-Herman Год назад

He probably already did

@reddbun-e Год назад

TF2 Steam guides be like

@frogixon Год назад

Shhh, stop giving him ideas

@plootyluvsturtle9843 Год назад

the looking animations are some of the greatest animation choices ever. the sheer comedy that being able to nod yes and no in such a goofy manor is amazing

@lamegamertime Год назад

*nods with entire upper body*

@Ya0w Год назад

@Ramiro And realise that it is even better, hell yeah!

@Jekler Год назад

every time i see someone violently nod or shake their head i just imagine a rattling sound and its perfect

@nicreven Год назад

manner

@lunaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Год назад

one of the many small reasons it will always be the greatest game ever made

@TrustyGun2 Год назад

ah yes, it only gets inaccurate at long range. good thing you'll never end up fighting a sniper at long range, so this is really never an issue.

@Helperbot-2000 6 месяцев назад

*spongebob foghorn*

@MaximusMin 20 дней назад

yes and of course you’ll always know that they’re there and pretty much exactly where they’re looking by just using your eyes because it’s not like they’ll be hidden somewhere far away where you can’t see them

@spacegoldfish9481 Год назад

one of these days we'll have enough evidence to prove that every sniper headshot ever made was technically a miss

@spacegoldfish9481 Год назад

@Kross yes. including the ones where they were standing totally still

@davisdf3064 Год назад

The sniper rifle was supposed to have random bullet spread, but Valve didn't knew up until now that it's perfectly precise. -jk-

@bigblue344 Год назад

I am not exaggerating when I say this but I have gotten more headshots either by missing my target completely or shooting them in the stomach (aside from the huntsman)

@TheDragShot Год назад

@@bigblue344 that's lag compensation being a little forgiving.

@TF2CrunchyFrog Год назад

It only affects the snipper dot in world view, meaning what the other players see of your dot, so your own aim as Sniper isnt affected.

@samuels1123 Год назад

Basically, the sniper dot is projected from a rounded angle, you can use the distance between positions a dot clicks between to get the distance of the sniper, like triangulation

@DragonaxFilms Год назад

I like the of TF2 players doing geometry to avoid getting headshot, and then probably getting backstabbed while using their graph calculator xD

@samuels1123 Год назад

@@DragonaxFilms just, if a stationary sniper dot jumps a foot across a wall in one frame and returns to stationary instantly, the sniper is at a significant distance

@vibaj16 Год назад

unless the sniper tricks you by manually aiming with those jolts to make you think they are far away

@TF2CrunchyFrog Год назад

@@vibaj16 Only if the Sniper player is telepathic and can read your mind from potentially thousands of km away to know you know about that sniper dot "feature".

@vibaj16 Год назад

@@TF2CrunchyFrog so you have to read someone's mind to be able to mess with them?

@TheRoboKitty Год назад

I love the irony that this is only a problem at long ranges, on the only long range class. At the same time, from a gameplay stance, I don't think this is a problem. The dot tells you a Sniper is aiming at you just in general, and that tells you more than enough

@bruschetta7711 Год назад

and at those ranges no competent sniper would hold too long i do bodyshot on purpose on those ranges because it's funny to see their reaction of getting hit from miles away

@TF2CrunchyFrog Год назад

Also, it's only an issue in world view (what other players see of your dot, what the host server tells them), it doesnt affect your own POV (client view).

@Margen67 Год назад

Flareon needs HUGS

@TheRoboKitty Год назад

@@Margen67 feel free

@calcutt4 5 месяцев назад

@@bruschetta7711based, I love bodyshotting tryhardy snipers especially and watching them rage

@ghost_ship_supreme Год назад

So does this mean every time I’ve been staring next to a doorway to hide my sniper dot, it could’ve just been in the doorway on the wall the whole time?

@budowniczypylonow7026 Год назад

Yes

@drucy. Год назад

Only if you start aiming in the doorway and then, move to the side of it. Otherwise, it would be more hidden.

@SSM24_ Год назад

@@drucy. If the problem is rounding the current angle, then I'm pretty sure how you actually got to that angle doesn't matter - looking at the same position would always put the sniper dot in the same place.

@drucy. Год назад

@@SSM24_ Nah, it seems that the dot basically trails of and snap AFTER where you aim, so it follows the same pattern, just snapping between places instead of smoothly going to each.

@vibaj16 Год назад

@@drucy. no, it snaps but smoothly goes between the positions

@ihavetowait90daystochangem67 Год назад

Such a faulty design for a class, this surely means the class is underpowered and deserves a buff!

@bonnierobloxrip Год назад

it can insta kill if aimed correctly. what else you want?

@andrewchavez4376 Год назад

@@bonnierobloxrip Buff sniper so he kills more instantly

@BlurkFromUtterSpace Год назад

@@bonnierobloxrip thatsthejoke.jpg

@disappointedcucumber Год назад

@@bonnierobloxrip Taunting as sniper should uber the player for 10 seconds and give them crits. The SMG should also be buffed so that it does minigun damage and has no spread.

@VagueCastle649 Год назад

@@andrewchavez4376 Make bushwaka have demoknight range.

@IBeforeAExceptAfterK Год назад

I can't believe it. A system where floating point numbers are used where floating point precision _isn't_ the cause of the problem. Amazing!

@IBeforeAExceptAfterK Год назад

I mean you're not wrong, but I was referring to the precision problems that arise when performing floating point arithmetic.

@chri-k Год назад

@@rishiishere. that’s not what “floating point imprecision” means though

@macslash5833 Год назад

Truly is impressive, makes you think about if the creators of the floating point standard regret not making the mantissa larger because they knew precision problems would absolutely occur

@sourestcake Год назад

@@macslash5833 The IEEE 754 floating point standard does have multiple sizes. 32-bit and 64-bit formats are the most common, but it can go up to 256 bits at least. It's just that hardware support for anything beyond 64 bits is unportable, like the 80-bit format of the x87 FPU. Applications that need insanely large numbers use arbitrary precision libraries.

@macslash5833 Год назад

@@sourestcake I know theres multiple sizes for floating point numbers, I know about 128 bit value types which are probably coming at some point in the future when people realise 64 bits wont cut it for everything (obviously works for a lot of things though) its just an interesting thought

@unholyserpent7942 Год назад

It was always weird to spectate snipers, as their dot usually was pointed below enemies' head, registering a headshot after a shot.

@deck_gaming Год назад

I would join a class which just talks about how tf2 works

@swedneck Год назад

that would be cooking class, discussing the making of Source Spaghetti

@SireForseti Год назад

@@swedneck mamma mia, that's a spicy meatball

@yarknark Год назад

@@SireForseti the meatballs are the chapters imagine class starting with "so today we're gonna be getting into meatball 7: Source server and client discrepancies"

@smokeyplane3285 Год назад

@@yarknark what would the final project for this class be

@yarknark Год назад

@@smokeyplane3285 Combine all your knowledge to effectively improve a certain aspect of the Source engine in some way. Whether it be fixing the rarest and most irrelevant bug in half life source to revamping the entire physics engine

@doctortwilight Год назад

When you look up or down it's not exactly 90°, it's actually 89°, as said by commands cl_pitchup and cl_pitchdown. If you look perfectly 90° up or down your controls invert.

@O5MO Год назад

You cant look directly 90 and -90 in default game (though you can with cheats), but what the shounic wanted to say is that the server does support looking directly up. Its just not possible normally, but if you do it with cheats, server will be operating normally. (Maybe it will detect that you are cheating but that's another story)

@bubbleman2002 Год назад

@Shinterpuff you can definitely look up or down more than 89.9º, aim punch.

@Thornskade Год назад

I had no idea. I thought the reason the dots jumped like this was because either people were lagging or just moving their mouse quickly

@MetalX34 Год назад

legit was wondering how some snipers camping sightlines had such robotic movements when sweeping out of boredom

@richardwatson1254 Год назад

what i expected from this video: explanation for sniper's dot inaccuracy what i got: what 8bit and more actually means

@genghisdingus Год назад

This would actually be a really cool tweak in tf2. Snipe dots tend to be hard to see because theyre stationary when they shouldnt be.

@cysipy Год назад

its so weird seeing the 16 bit sniper dot compared to the 8 bit one because we are all used to that

@DeskFan Год назад

i have such a shit sense of humor the pyro spinning around at 0:45 is so hilarious to me for some reason

@Nightmare_52 Год назад

i always liked the sniper dot being on like a grid pattern instead of 100% accurate, you really just need the rough area where they are looking

@tulsatrash 6 месяцев назад

Sadly a lot of people still have internet connections that haven't improved since 2007.

@rixarlin Год назад

Always saw this in demos povs of snipers, very nice to know.

@Hydrant749 6 месяцев назад

**THE DOT IS A LIE** **THE DOT IS A LIE** **THE DOT IS A LIE** -Doug Rattmann

@unrevoked7137 Год назад

Video idea: Heavy rocket jumps further and higher than any other class, and the other classes have the same idea but at different levels

@DarkPortall Год назад

that's just heavy insanely op...

@unrevoked7137 Год назад

@@DarkPortall no im saying thats already a mechanic in tf2

@unrevoked7137 Год назад

@@DarkPortall in randomizer it's something i noticed. I want shounic to go specifically why it happens

@itsasecrettoevery1 Год назад

@@unrevoked7137 soldier is the only class to have a "weight" heavy takes less knockback from everything, but hes technically the same weight as every other class except for the soldier, who is the "heaviest" what being heavier just means that you take lesser knockback from your own explosives, thats why in randomizer you get launched way higher as other classes with the rocket launcher

@kaeruKola_ Год назад

@@itsasecrettoevery1 so that might explain why engineer is sent flying when sentry jumping, and not just because "four rockets = more knockback"

@youtubeuniversity3638 Год назад

"Perfect" accuracy would take 27 bits just for vertical. 16 seems sufficient.

@Treblaine Год назад

[sees dot moving unnaturally] "OMG teh snipre iz haxxing!"

@robinrai4973 Год назад

lovely video and explanation as usual!

@lightningkitten Год назад

it'll be funny if they fix it, seeing distant snipers conveying emotions or little messages with their sniper dots (seeing an angry sniper shake his crosshair in frustration at someone ducking behind cover, for instance), or scoping on the same spot as them to communicate with them. it would make the class slightly more interactive and funny.

@Vhie05 Год назад

or a sniper trying to "write with the dot". Funny if two snipers at 2fort can mutually communicate this way

@lightningkitten Год назад

@@Vhie05 exactly

@Name-ot3xw Год назад

Fallout 3 had that bug too, but worse. Your bullet followed a vector that started from the bottom center of the screen causing issues with people trying to snipe outside of VATS.

@MagyarGaben 6 месяцев назад

The entire programming community: "Why can't you just be normal?" TF2 code: KnNjcmVhbXMq

@Big_Iron_Tomkus 12 дней назад

That was a really good and easy to understand explanation of bits.

@JDubTheFamilyGamer Год назад

great video! thanks Shounic!

@probablyjohn5589 Год назад

This is an extremely detailed explanation. Thank you, shounic.

@TriggerzConnors Год назад

Thats the reason why I went out the open and the dot was few away from my head. I thought he's not gonna hit my head and he did.

@Wheagg Год назад

They could also start using "looking at xyz" to eliminate the problem completely and have the same error margin regardless of distance, but that might be overkill.

@iji_omu Год назад

why do i find just a pyro looking around to be so funny

@eyitsaperson Год назад

ask yourself

@flowerpotmadeofclay Год назад

The gas mask probably

@abicto Год назад

idk pyro in general is just goofy to see

@Yay295 18 дней назад

World of Tanks actually has an option to display the server's reticle on top of your own, so you can know where you're actually aiming. Though for World of Tanks the issue is more due to potential lag than due to numbers being rounded.

@eviethekiwi7178 Год назад

i love that those compressing things at 1:49 are immediately recognizable as the hydraulic press from Hydraulic Press Channel 0

@JTBJacksdeadasschannel Год назад

Shounic talking about how the server sends all these different commands to your computer in a split second makes me wonder how powerful my computer really is

@Da_Random Год назад

Wait, wouldn't raising the amount of bits available for rotation data ALSO produce more accurate spectator views? I think some people would stop accusing legitimate players for cheating just because they don't know the technical aspects and quirks of the game. OR at the very least, it would make demo playbacks look nicer for sniper montages, I suppose lol.

@lychy645 Год назад

Yes

@andrewponder3855 Год назад

It's only a problem at greater distances? Well that's fine, snipers aren't a long range class./s

@gordonf5553 6 месяцев назад

welcome to another episode of 8bit gaming

@Mexican00b Год назад

never played TF2 but i always stumble over some kind of videos like this one or those crazy animations fans do... its amazing how this community works hahaha

@bekda4963 Год назад

Whenever I read your titles I'm like "Dafuq you mean dude" then after watching I'm like "oooooohhh ok"

@Matheus-gc5fn 3 месяца назад

when the 64 bits update came out the only thing i tough was "wait, that means the dot is now acturare"

@dexuspillarmen7703 6 месяцев назад

until now, i was so scared of snipers, then i play sniper at 2fort, and notice, yeah, they can be scary, but no thing can defeat a kamikaze soldier, so now, sniper spoted, ill just go full rocket jump to unplug his power

@Homer_Noobson 6 месяцев назад

That thumbnail is genius.

@ReshyShira Год назад

With you discussing how models change their facing, does this affect the backstab hitbox? I'd be kinda curious to see what the server considers to be the backstab hitbox and if it has any weird rounding issues that causes it.

@irregularassassin6380 Год назад

That might help explain some of the slightly questionable facestabs.

@thatrandomcrit5823 Год назад

@@irregularassassin6380 "slightly"

@mrbooboostankReal Год назад

Months late but backstabbing is based on angles and the positions of the spy and his victim: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gh5Fg5d_uBU.html

@artemking4460 Год назад

Thing is, the amount of bits allocated for these two is so small simply because it was inherited from older versions of the source engine. Maybe even quake era, who knows. Its just that this is sent in svc_PacketEntities(i might be wrong but the name is similar), and i assume that it just uses the same thing as for all objects, so im pretty sure all object orientation is that way. And i remember looking into clc_Move, and yes, they do send raw 32 bit floats for player camera angles, so i guess thats right

@zk.2095 Год назад

YO WAS THAT QUANCHALE DINGALINGHEEHOO IN THE THUMBNAIL???😱😱😱

@danger2236 Год назад

shounic turned from a funny bug museum guy, to a white hat playtester/bug finder

@258thHiGuy Год назад

My first guess is that its easier to see a static dot than one that's constantly moving slightly as the sniper adjusts the aim

@irregularassassin6380 Год назад

Humans are programmed to notice motion, especially in our peripheral vision. As far as I know, a moving object is always easier to see than a stationary one under otherwise equal conditions.

@Marioiscool246 Год назад

up and down look value is actually clamped to 89.0 (cl_pitchup/cl_pitchdown cvar setting) if you set it to 90, you cannot move if you look directly down

@mikec670 Год назад

I think it might have to do with tangent. Some kinda trig that causes that.

@sauli01 4 месяца назад

But the server still counts the values going up to 90 so the accuarcy is still what is said in video. Just cant go past 89 with mouse movement

@umbree6407 6 месяцев назад

0:45 I have noticed that the game steps the entities rotation in the Yaw axis to use "Pose Parameters" more closely. Albeit it isn't a hard set to be stepped, as once you start moving its mostly the same direction you are facing.

@robrucki6695 Год назад

shounic out here giving kids free comp sci education

@wisedredd8203 Год назад

babe wake up, new shounic video dropped

@RonZhang Год назад

Yes, I like it when you cover discrepancies of TF2 in deep detail.

@william3371 Год назад

1:55 I love that you literally proceeded to just explain how binary code works here for the sake of the video

@joshyaash Год назад

Wow, your explanation on bits was really well done.. nice

@55ziomal55 Год назад

This is one of those things you don't need to dig into game's code to discover. If you play TF2 long enough, especially as sniper this becomes very noticeable.

@noskalborg723 Год назад

mmmmMMMMMmmmmm Shallaaaan! deLICious liesssss!

@ShinyQuagsire Год назад

technically if they wanted, they could get more resolution out of the 8-bit quantization by using a nonlinear mapping. For example, aiming directly in the sky or at your feet is relatively uncommon, so those values could get reallocated to the center of the FoV.

@user-og7tm4me2n 5 месяцев назад

2:07 THATS THE OPPOSITE OF THE NORMAL

@helmetluigi Год назад

Can you cover this High Five Taunt quirk? 1. Face a wall, try using the high five taunt, won't let you 2. Face away from the wall just enough so it appears it should let you use it, try using it, won't let you 3. Now don't move your mouse, just jump in place once, try using the taunt now, it let's you use it! Seems like the player model doesn't update its direction unless the rotation rate is bigger, or if the player jumps

@MrBrax Год назад

Huh, i swear i never saw this when I played tf2 years ago. Felt like it always moved smoothly

@JouvaMoufette Год назад

I think they're talking about how others on the server perceive it. Locally it may look fine, but not so much when transmitted to other players

@MrBrax Год назад

@@JouvaMoufette yes my own dot would look fine, meant when looking at other players dots

@TheBreadPirate Год назад

That 16 Bit dot is 👌

@SpunkMayo Год назад

Meanwhile my internet is the same as it was in 2007

@spurzz Год назад

You should do an event with every player’s LOS visible, I wonder how classes like sniper would change

@SpunkMayo Год назад

They did that already

@twin_towers_destroyer Год назад

spy… zzzzz….

@RdTrler Год назад

He already did that with Snipers, but you're talking about *all* players. Spies would totally get the shaft because they'd be drawing some seriously sussy lines from disguises.

@ZyphonyTF Год назад

Shounic's excuse be like when he gets called out "a shit sniper":

@TheTehnigga Год назад

I'm learning so much about programming with these in depth TF2 videos!

@jkerman5113 Год назад

Beautiful explanation

@baronvonwhinsectown2454 Год назад

Me waiting for shounic to release the scream fortress content drop showcase video

@stapleboy7462 Год назад

brave enough to say it

@AGrayPhantom Год назад

This explains why I still get shot even though it didn't look like the dot was on me on my screen! 😲

@EnderBuilder Год назад

Shounic should make a video about TF2 weapons that were "balanced" to the ground and maybe the contractor at Valve will help us.

@derekc.7689 Год назад

it's probably better described as imprecise than inaccurate whatever though, great explanation of bits and nice graphics work as always!

@greenlemon9155 Год назад

i thought the dot was an edict with his network datatable had the float precision flag set to his position, or is this just for hl2mp ??

@l2_linksklix 6 месяцев назад

Ok, and thats why the 64 bit update is important

@joshuawiener5003 Год назад

Good gravel, this game is held together with duct tape and chewed gum.

@nick-playercharacter8583 Год назад

This is an interesting quirk. On the one hand, it's not really begging for a fix since the dot is only there to warn the other team that the sniper is scoped on an area. Knowing the exact spot they're looking at isn't that important. On the other hand, implementing the fix wouldn't be that difficult nowadays and the meager downsides can only further fade with time. We'll just have to wait and see if Valve does anything about this.

@mdn737 Год назад

This is a game breaking issue. I am literally going to die

@purplehaze2358 Год назад

I watched this all the way through and I’m no closer to understanding what causes this oddity. Not because it’s poorly explained, but because my brain is too small to understand it.

@mr.m2675 Год назад

thank you for being the rare kind of internet people that can show their imperfections

@userPrehistoricman Год назад

you should be named Dr Dim

@humanharddrive1 3 месяца назад

the game really is held together by duct tape

@VestedUTuber Год назад

I know this may seem like something broken, but this also basically prevents the dot from desynching due to small movements.

@epicgamerzfail4575 Год назад

3:28 well it's a good snipers aren't good at long range then

@furryplayboicarti Год назад

I always thought something was weird.

@StormcellX Год назад

Everytime one of these videos drops I'm glued to it like the coconut to tf2's stability.

@LEGOALEX97 Год назад

We’re eatin Italian today!

@chickennugget6684 Год назад

ah that explains a lot of clips where the dot doesn't line up very well somehow i feel like this being broken actually is a positive jank thing since it makes the person viewing it not know *exactly* where the sniper is aiming

@greasedumpster9781 Год назад

watching pyro look around is so entertaining

@AngryCaesCorporation Год назад

After the cake, THE DOT IS A LIE !!

@Strange_med Год назад

I have a idea for a experiment, what if you could use all of a class’s items at once? Maybe like if you were playing demo with your primary stock weapon out and you pressed a button and your stock primary would switch to a iron bomber, and if you pressed it again it would switch to another demoman primary. Would this make certain classes over powered?

@OGUnusualHat Год назад

Instead of labeling the 3rd value in setang as 'rotation', it should have been labeled 'roll', as the first two values are the pitch and yaw, and together the 3 make up the 3 axis of 3d rotation.