Gothitelle, 2015 Edited by: tazprods Follow Me On Twitter: / freezaiyt Follow Me On Twitch: / freezaiyt Subscribe to My Battles Channel: / @freezailive3842 Join the communtity discord!: / discord
@@DIRTkat_ofc also remember to come as close to the South pole, the Amazon rainforest or the Sahara desert to make sure your internet speed is as slow as an ORAS stall mirror.
Make sure to pause, make someone else watch half way, switch back in, unpause and watch 1/4 of the video, pause, switch out AGAIN to another person to watch 3.33th of the video, make lunch, and then forfeit because you got burned
@@SminkingDoctorI mean it was really good in gen 2 and 4 UU although I guess not so much in gen 3 since it was UUBL, point being it wasn’t bad and had niches in OU in all of those generations
Mega Slowbro took his Stalling gimmick, and turned it up to 20, high defenses and HP with Shell Armor stopping crits! You either counter stall with Toxic, or use Regieleki's insane speed with electro ball
This is true, but ngl I also appreciate it when my opponent and I both lead with our SR setters and we both set rocks the first turn. I call any Turn 1 mutual exchange of hazards "The Smogon Handshake".
Another important thing to mention, Dugtrio actually got buffed pretty considerably going into Gen 7. Its okay 80 base Attack got bumped all the way up to a decent base 100, which made it even easier for it to pick off important targets
Mega Sableye got hit pretty hard by a couple other indirect nerfs in Sun and Moon too. First of all, prankster was nerfed to no longer work on dark types, which meant Sableye had fewer entry points. Secondly, and maybe even bigger, was the mega speed change mechanic. When mega evolutions attacked with the speed of their base form, Sabeleye could mega evolve while moving first because of prankster, which was huge. It could mega evolve with priority calm mind, will'o'wisp, or recover, while simultaneously getting access to magic bounce that same turn. It had status protection, physical attack protection, special attack protection, and hazard protection as a priority move to go alongside its massive defensive stats. The only way to overpower it was basically with a choice band fire type, or an attack so strong it 2hkoed through these moves. After the mega speed change mechanic, Sableye couldn't do that, so if it wanted to mega evolve, it would usually need to take an attack before it could set up. Since Mega Sableye is at its most vulnerable before it sets up, getting that extra move to increase its defenses before it takes an attack was massive in making it feel unkillable. While most megas loved the speed mechanic changes, mega sableye was kinda (probably justifiably) screwed over by them. There was also the indirect nerf of just more really good fairies being added to the game, so it was hard to justify mega sableye in a meta dominated by the tapus. Tapu Fini's misty terrain also probably provided a team protection against will'o'wisp. So just a lot of things indirectly happened to make Mega Sableye significantly worse than it had been the previous generation.
Not only were the Tapus + Magearna introduced as new Fairies that scared Sableye, but Mega Mawile got unbanned in the generational shift due to no longer being considered overpowered (once again there were now more checks like Pex, Sucker Punch got nerfed so offense was better vs it, etc.). Mega Mawile absolutely shit on stall in general (once Duggy got banned) even with Pex since Mawile was always on teams that has ways to deal with Pex (i.e Magma Storm Tran to trap and kill with Earth Power, or Gigavolt Havoc Magearna). Mawile was such a brutal matchup for stall that random mons that otherwise did very little started being looked at like Avalugg (lost to Iron Head but that was uncommon since it otherwise only really beat Mega Venusaur), Moltres (had trouble with Thunder Punch, especially with Rocks up), and even Mega Avalugg (which was able to beat every Mawile variant except the people who hated Heatran + Ferro cores and used SubPunch). It's kind of incredible how just Mawile's presence in the tier forcing stall to fight against it, which made Stall weaker vs everything else, was really nice for fighting Stall even without Mawile. Like, oh you're using a Mega Aggron stall team? Nice, I don't have to deal with Mega Sableye preventing my Rocks then
I also love the fact that strategies that were slept on at the time when older gens were still current then retroactively get brought back because that strategy was great in a later gen. Dugtrio Stall was mentioned in the video, but there are other examples, such as the Knock Off spam of Gen 6 making gen 4&5 players realise that they should be using Knock Off more even when it doesn't do real damage; or the rise in appreciation for Clefable in those same gens due to people using it so much in Gen 6 (even though it's not a Fairy type in the older gens).
Yeah it's strange how such good strategies can be overlooked for so long. I used to play NetBattle back in the day and it took a long time for people to realise how good Choice Band was. For a couple of years it was basically only used on Slaking (who was just using a move and switching out immediately anyway) and was considered a waste/too risky on anything else. Being unable to switch moves seemed like too much of a drawback. I remember someone out-right won a Smogon tournament with Choice Band Metagross (a set that was basically considered to be a gimmick at the time) and that's when it all changed and people started using Choice Band on other non-Slaking Pokemon after that.
for anyone wondering why dugtrio is allowed in gen 3, there's 4 reasons. firstly, stall is not very good because of spikes and sand. roost doesn't exist so theres no spike immune mons with recovery, and there aren't any sand immune mons with recovery besides wish jirachi and recover cradilly. secondly, there's no focus sash so dugtrio has a much harder time coming in. thirdly, dugtrio needs choice band to get most KOs so its choice locks get punished very hard. and lastly it doesn't have sucker punch or amazing coverage.
Pretty sure syther could learn morning sun and then you could develop to scizor. Also sleep talk sets. And a bit indirect healing was possible. Ran into so many swamperts running protect to enhance the use of leftovers (and toxic)
@@martinerhard8447 for sure, but morning sun in a metagame centered around permanent sand means it will just heal 1/4, which is terrible, also scizor in gen 3 is kinda bad without technician/bullet punch/u-turn/phys pursuit.
@@satiri4639 yup good point about the weather runing this kind of healing. All that remains is stuff like resto chesto or sleep talk. With a fully defensive scizor one can at least use it as a good baton pass mon
@@martinerhard8447 swampert, skarmory and metagross all regularly use protect to get leftovers chip yes, but there's a big difference between 50% and 6%. and rest is punished hard in gen 3 because for some reason if you use rest talk then switch or get phased out it resets the sleep counter, only suicune and zapdos really get away with it by threatening skarmory (the best phaser) and they both take sand. bulky balance is viable but stall gets destroyed pretty easily. and yep scizor is only used for gimmicky baton pass offense
Fun Fact: Gholdengo is bulkier than Mega Sableye, and that's discounting ability to hold items like Air Balloon or Leftovers. Just thought that was interesting.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="123">2:03</a> funny analogy considering many stall teams have seismic toss somewhere on there, a move that does 100 damage in 1 turn
I still can’t believe they gave Shadow Tag to something besides Wobbuffet. Not that he isn’t cheese either but it was pretty clear that ability was balanced around the pokemon having literally like 5 learnable moves and none of them are direct attacks (or Trick)
Even worse is that Chandelure was supposed to have it in gen V, but it never got its hidden ability released until VI, where they had a moment of restraint and changed it to Infiltrator. Only to lose all restraint and give it to Mega-freaking-Gengar instead, in the same gen
@@furiouscorgi6614 technically 9, in Gen III there was a Wynaut event that had Tickle, and in SwSh it got Amnesia. (There is also a 10th move it had one gotten. In Gen II there was downloadable Mimic Wobbuffet egg event but it is unobtainable in any titles where Abilities exist since it, alongide every other Gen I and II event-only move, is unobtainable in the Virtual Console versions of the game.)
To my experience, the reason why fighting stall was troublesome was mostly because of the heavily skewed risk reward trade-off in favour of the stall player (well unless you use manaphy). The stall player can often afford to make multiple mistakes, while you are the one who has to actively position and make greater risks in order to outplay them, especially with more offensive and frailer cores. I vividly remember how it was simply necessary to prepare a dedicated stall breaker or stall proof mon for top ladder/ tournament play in the days of Gen 7 OU. Z move nukes were often too predictable at higher levels of play, pursuit trappers were susceptible to status and hazards… That’s why I always try to bring a whirlpool tapu fini, makes life slightly easier against some stall mus lol.
the fact that this happened before the most evil pokemon to ever exist, toxapex, came out is astounding. seeing the demon fall to UU added a holiday to my calendar. i don't care how good it actually is. it is the flagship mon for me to hate on whenever the topic comes up. of course, it's not like that wasnt talked about in the gen 7 part of the video.
Stall players probably do other fun activities outside of battles. Like watching paint dry , eating rice one grain at a time, waiting in line for 2 hours for a amusement park ride , watching ads on mobile games
I never realized that trapping was banned to nerf stall teams. I would have guessed that trapping made hyperoffense overpowered by removing the one counter to your wincon. Interesting.
Honestly trappin is still super cracked on a couple guys. Zone and heatran are honestly better off not tryna trap. But I say that because I’m fooling around w/ steel beam, analytic, flame body. The actual trappers. Block Garg, prob the most simple and mid amount of reward. Hydriegon, my favorite. Fire spin, protect(roost got clapped) twave, dark pulse. If it’s nat dex or prior gen, if it’s prior gen you wouldn’t be using this set 💀 if it’s nat dex you have roost and therefore u can try being greedy w/ a wack item. Cloak, which ever trap item boosts trap residual and not how long it lasts. Twave dark pulse by itself is evil. And then last is gliscor. Sand tomb over Eq. Need the tect/roost, knock? Tox? Taunt? Taunt is tuff because more required to dump into speed over pure bulk. If ur slower than a slow Dd guy the taunt is useless. And fishing for sand tomb really can be tuff. As gliscor tryna trap ain really keepin it for the long game. Vs say Tox protect do nun.
@@Interiorcrocodilealigator10838 Dang, that's some nice alternative thinking there. Wish we got more Perish Song access so manual trapping could make it more effective
Trapping is just universally broken and the only ones ever allowed are manual or zone. Kinda wish we test it back in just to see if it still is cuz looking at the mons now what do you even trap without just losing that mon? You can even terra ghost out of it if it's really bad for your team but the world ain't ready for that conversation
@@Ritsuemaru by running tera ghost on your entire team to evade trapping you're entirely losing out on the tera mechanic though. It's the exact same thing as with shed shell: sure you could run 6 shed shells on your team, but at what cost? You'd make your entire team lose out on items in return. Also how you trap is simple: use one of the now dozen momentum moves to get your trapper in without taking damage.
I just hate playing against stall. It’s so annoying to beat that even when I manage to beat it, I’m not happy anymore. Like it’s fun to out think balanced or hyper offensive players, but it’s just exhausting against stall. It saps my excitement. I get the whole thing about it being a valid way to play, but it’s the only kinda strategy I’ve never found fun
Stall is the only reason I play randoms on Showdown instead of constructed OU. Stall is just not at all fun to fight, even if I win. I think if stall was banned it would bring back SO many players than lose. But since the higher ups at smogon play stall, it'll never happen.
Mega sableye made me so angry back in the day. I used a fire mega Altaria team, that used frustration, heal bell, roost, and dragon dance that destroyed stall because of it.
Competitive Pokemon used to be effectively just complicated rock, paper, scissors (not a good thing) now it's basically just rock, paper, scissors, gun. Gun represents Gen 9 mons like Chi-Yu, Iron Hands, Cien Po, Kingambit. They beat rock paper and scissors and they're immune to all of them too.. if you both choose gun then it's literally just down to luck
Oh man this was when I was finishing up high school. We didn't have a lot going on so I remember playing a ton of ORAS Singles, especially UU. Mega Agron was my GOAT. Crazy to think that was already almost a decade ago
Stall is what got me into competitive singles. Mega sableye is my favorite Pokémon. Silly gem goblin go brrrrrr. If megas were still in the game, I’d be playing stall instead of rain with kilowattrel. I like to play the newest generation of OU instead of older gens. Sometimes I’ll go back to gen 7 OU or try out nat dex again, but I usually stick with the newest gen’s OU
I think gen 9 has really killed stall as a play style. The min max of stats coupled with insane wall breakers in the current meta means it’s basically on life support.
The Stall Bible (a Google Doc from a community Discord) lists *TEN* things that a good Gen 9 Stall team absolutely requires in order to work. TEN. In case you're curious: A Nasty Plot Gholdengo counter, also capable of beating Psyshock variants. 99% of the time this will be Calm Mind Tera Dark Blissey or Amnesia Tera Steel/Dark Clodsire, but a few other things can also do this. In a similar vein, a solution for Stored Power sweepers. The above listed Blissey and Clodsire work here, but options like Clear Smog Amoonguss and Haze Toxapex or a variety of phasers work as well. Watch out for Tera Steel. Cosmic Power or Calm Mind Unaware Clefable or Deoxys-Defense also can work. Hazards. For Spikes, Gliscor is easily the best, but Skarmory and Clodsire are also good. Niche options like Deoxys-Defense, Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Ting-Lu also can work. For Stealth Rock, Blissey is the best by a long shot, although basically everything else that learns the move can be a viable user of it. Typically you need at least one reliable setter, and that can make room for a more niche secondary setter (example: Blissey for rocks and Quagsire for Spikes or Gliscor for Spikes and Bronzong for rocks). Both Stealth Rock and Spikes aren’t required on every team but they are highly recommended. A way to manage hazards and Knock Off. A team can either stack knock absorbers (Gliscor, Magic Guard Clefable, Tera Flying Alomomola, Muk, Hydrapple, Skarmory/Corviknight, etc) or fight to try and remove hazards. Remember, you have to be able to remove on Gholdengo, so you can't just throw Defog on a Corviknight and call it a day, you need other things to supplement that. A Choice Specs switch-in. Blissey is usually the primary switch-in for Choice Specs users like Dragapult, Latios, Walking Wake, Raging Bolt, etc. Combinations of other options like Slowking-Galar, specially defensive Toxapex, Ting-Lu, and Slowking can also be similarly as effective, just it takes far more space on a team. A way to counter Future Sight. The most standard technique is giving a psychic resist/immunity or bulky special wall Protect, like Blissey, Ting-Lu, specially defensive Corviknight, Gholdengo, Deoxys-Defense, Tera Steel Cyclizar, or a multitude of others. Substitute on Regenerator users like Slowking or Slowking-Galar is also effective, as Future Sight does very little to them. An end-game Kingambit counter. The standard is Dondozo, with Tera Fighting to handle Tera Dark Fallen 5 Kingambit, although there are other ways to deal with this. Moltres, Talonflame, Counter Clodsire/Quagsire, fast Iron Defense Skarmory/Corviknight, and a handful of other niche options. Often, you can’t deal with this with one pokemon, and the counterplay depends on the Kingambit set. An Ogerpon-Wellspring switch-in. Ogerpon-Wellspring finds free entry on the slough of water moves that the thousand bulky waters like to use, and is a scary offensive threat. Amoonguss, Wo-Chien, Hydrapple, Tera Grass Talonflame, Tera Dragon Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Brave Bird Skarmory/Corviknight, etc. Some checks here are far better than others. Amoonguss and Wo-Chien are by far the safest two options as they handle every common set. Usually, you want at least one Unaware pokemon. Dondozo, Clodsire, Clefable, Skeledirge, and Quagsire all do different things and can be used for this. This isn’t exactly mandatory, but you will be much more consistent with Unaware versus without Unaware. A way to make progress. Whether this is trapping, PP stalling, status, item removal, hard hitters, or a combination of the prior, you need to be able to actually make progress over an extended game. Stall can almost never hold out indefinitely, you need to pressure your opponent and remove or limit their key pieces before they break your defensive core. Remember, you only have 8 pp on most recovery moves.
I mean somewhat. But regenerator toxipex is what I run and I do pretty well, always getting into master ball tier every season (not all running the mon though, but most of the time)
Gholdengo specifically doesn't care at all about dedicated stall teams, which forces you to run at least 1 heavy hitter just to clear the way for the rest of your walls
PIF on the uu ladder in gen 6 and 7 was rough. Finally got a team that was good and could handle him the last like 6 months of gen 7 after years of terror
I'm not a huge fan of stall generally, but for some reason I really love Pressure/PP stall in particular. It's not a very great strategy, but it feels so satisfying if you can pull it off. Corviknight, Zapdos and Articuno happen to be among my favourite designs ever as well!
i doubt it, since doubles became the official format in gen 3, and vgc is just more entertaining since theres more going on. also the official singles format is 3v3, so the matches will go by faster even if there is stall. plus theres a game timer so its not like games are going to an hour even if a player uses stall. not to mention that stall has been used in vgc before, never been a top strat or anything but its been relevant a few times and has had some good placements
One very niche nuisance that can come up with Stall is that, if you are doing some kind of tournament, having a Stall Mirror can result in a game where neither side can actually win (without the other basically throwing in the towel) resulting in a match that either takes forever, or ends in a draw. Thankfully Showdown has systems in place to prevent situations where two players drag out a game by bull-headedly (Tauros-headedly?) believing they can win if they just play another couple hundred turns of hoping their opponent misplays.
So, the way to beat stall I gravitated towards in this era was just playing a balance team with a regenerator duo. Lots of stall teams straight up had NO answer to switching between regenerators. Forcing either a forfeit or a draw.
this was actually my favorite era of competitive Pokemon, in spite of the pervalence of stall. Breaking apart a stall team while playing an offensive team was like picking a lock, and getting the right read after discovering the opponent's patterns is so satifying
Also, seeing weavile stall mentioned is really cool. Having a purely offensive threat on a playstyle like stall is wild, and it's one of the most interesting meta shifts out there imo
I personally gravitate towards stall, semi-stall, and balance structures, because they work better with how I think. I've been forcing myself to learn offense, with mixed but generally poor results. I went from a consistent 16-1700 level player to hovering around 1400 playing offense. My brain is fundamentally built for defensive structures that provide clear-cut answers and gameplans, and much less for more nebulous concepts like tempo and positioning, and its the major thing that holds me back as a player.
I know you already did a video on this, but it would be cool to see a more in-depth look on the quag ban, or just a general big stall ban list (see BWOU sun stall lmaooo). Would be cool to do a “history of stall bans” video
For gen 7 I had a great rain team that was great against stall. Ash greninja, azumarill and mega swampert together would put out way too much damage for them to heal back
I played against stall with my bulky offense team at one point. Now since I was bulky offense, my team had plenty of recovery and resistances as well. I was getting bored when by turn 70~ neither team had any damage taken and offered a draw. My opponent refused. So, since my healing was largely passive from grassy terrain or lefovers, and they needed healing moves to get past my high damage and toxic damage, the walls started crumbling. It took another 70+ turns, but I won in the end, and decided to just start ffing against stall teams.
I ran a weird stall during sun and moon using FEAR togetemaru, toxipex, and tyranitar. Idea was burn steel types, kill ghost, setup toxic spikes or sandstorm whichever is needed, and then sweep with FEAR shell bell sturdy Togetemaru.
the only fun stall team i ever played was a popular pyukumuku team that used spite and pressure mons to beat the enemy by making they strugle. I know it seems annoying, but i love pyukumuku and I was happy to use it in OU
For me stall in Pokemon is fun because its a big endurance challenge, the type of challenge that gives me the most enjoyment in games but sadly is rare to find at all, and it's even more rare to find one that's actually challenging. Keeping the whole team alive through all the raw power and tricks other players throw at my face just gives me a rush, especially since as mentioned in the video it's usually game over the moment one team member drops. That said, I dropped out of comp before the era of Mega Sab and the trap revolution and that just sounds like hell.
I like the stall playstyle because of how it involves a lot of long term planning. I find it quite sad that gen 9 killed stall for good with the halving of recovery move PP.
IIRC gothitelle and gothita got banned from gen 7 ubers but not shadow tag, so mega gengar was still usable. (EDIT actually it was only suspect tested but not banned)
I played that format, my team was a balanced team (the teams that I enjoy the most) and got that feeling that the stall teams were too much. If they wanted to hinder one of your mons they had Prankster, if they knew it wouldn't be worth it they'd Mega Evolve Sableye, a monstrosity when it comes to stall, and would win right there 'cause I wouldn't deal with that shit.
Honestly, I'd just love to see trapping abilities get reworked. Like, make arena trap do 1/8th damage to mons switching in on dugtrio, make shadow tag do 1/8th damage to mons switching out, make magnet pull drop held items on switchout or something.
