Technology is fine and dandy .. when it works. As a computer tech, keyboard player and sound engineer, I would suggest having a Plan B if/when the computer goes SOL. I would suggest setting up the keyboard to have a favorites patch section with common sounds: acoustic piano, acoustic piano + strings, e. piano, e piano + strings, e piano + pad, keyboard w/ split bass on left, etc. I'd run the quarter-inch outs of the piano into a Radial Engineering DI box or equivalent DI w/ a Jensen transformer. I'd also make sure that the sound engineer has the proper EQ settings. Another thing that is rarely mentioned is the need for having a private talkback mic (with switch) on stage so that anyone on the worship team can communicate problems to the sound booth. Likewise, the sound booth needs to have a private talkback mic setup. The booth talkback system needs to run independently of the main console, so a cheap $50 mixer and Roland CM-30 powered speaker would work great.
agree. my plan A is use keyboard sounds.. backing wav files if needed in keyboard... plan B for backing tracks is macbook.. plan C for backing tracks (which is increasingly plan B) is phone.
Great info. Re: keyboard stand 13:04 -- I absolutely hate X-style adjustable keyboard stands. There's a trampoline effect when playing notes on the lower or higher end of the board. The best ones look more like a table -- four legs make the whole rig much more stable. I also like the "gutted upright piano" idea. Just fantastic.
Your statements regarding a software keyboard rig using Mainstage being easier for for the worship leader to train "volunteer" keyboard players vs a hardware based keyboard rig would only apply to the simplest level of playing keys - layering piano, pads, synth lead, and maybe a synth bass, which in fact can be as easily done on a hardware keyboard such as that Yamaha you were using as a MIDI controller. It appears that the patches included with Mainstage do not allow you to really reproduce the sounds/patches used on current contemporary worship songs. A more realistic representation of what is actually required of the keyboard player was exemplified by David's preparation to play the four songs with your worship team. He used sounds/patches that he had made from Sunday Keys. He had to learn the song's elements, pick the sounds to be used to reproduce them, and where to use them in the songs. Note he even used a pre-prepared "song specific patch" from Sunday Keys. The keyboard parts on the original songs likely used different software, such as Reason, Native Instruments, Omnisphere, and Keyscape or others. Even then it's more likely than not that the keyboardist "tweaked" the sound's/patch's ADSR or filters. I think the more current practice is to use a combination rig with both hardware and software; examples seen frequently are combinations of Nord, Roland, or Yamaha hardware with Native Instruments, Omnisphere, and Keyscape, software (and yes Sunday Keys) inside of either Mainstage or Ableton. Certainly an all software rig is possible, but there will be other problems of insufficient RAM, audio glitches, and dropouts when you actually try to reproduce all of the keyboard sounds/parts that exist in current worship songs. Nevertheless this was an excellent video in which David demonstrated what is really involved for the keyboard player.
Hi, I agree with you that problems do arise with this setup I once had. But for the most part, it was good. I've since moved on to a hybrid I really like that works. I hope you can read my post above and tell me what you think.
Hey Allen, been using Sunday Keys for over a year at Church and I must say both the quality of sounds as well as the performance has been nothing short of stellar (using a 13" MBP 2018). The only issues I had in the early days were things like notifications popping up on my Mac and sounding out (just need to turn on do not disturb and turn off wifi to solve this). They also have Song-specific patches that make it super easy for volunteers with basic keys experience to sound great! Suggest you check it out, at the price they offer it it's a steal.
@@jasonpsam Jason, sorry for the late response. I am trying out Mainstage having recently invested in an M1 Mac Mini. I do prefer Mainstage's "chord trigger" MIDI effect over Ableton's "chord" Fx, as Mainstage requires less programing. The underlying problem is not the quality of the sounds with either Mainstage or Ableton, but what is required to try and match the patch sounds on the the recordings. Both Mainstage and Ableton required significant "sound design" experience with either program's synth engine, as opposed to Omnisphere or even my hardware keyboard, which involves extended searching through pre-made patches to find a good match.
@@allendunning272 Hey Allen, no worries. The Sunday Sounds website actually has Song-specific patches which are a real lifesaver when you're in a hurry. Check these out, they are pretty decent.
@@jasonpsam I am aware of them, but my preference is for more closely following the sound/patch arrangements of the original recordings. That being said I am impressed at how quickly and how many song specific patches Sunday Sounds puts out.
the Hillsong / charismatic style complex keyboard setup.. it's interesting it's evolved like this. actually i think the closest parallel if we look at mainstream churches, or church keyboard history, is the pipe organ.. setting up pipe organ pistons (presets), and stop selection is quite an intricate thing with church organists! so having realised this historical / classical music parallel, i think it's really cool what Hillsong and modern keys players are doing with their keyboard / computer rigs. And then there are digital pipe organs, whose sounds many of them have been amazing for 20 years or more now.. their operating systems and USB and I/Os clunky, but slowly catching up and laptop software more advanced / useful.
Hey! Great Video! An important fact might be that the MX88 (if it’s the V.2) has a build in Audio Interface. So actually you can even save the money on the quite pricey radial di-Box. I use my ultra light-weight mx49 for several church-services already and I like this easy Setup. My Heavy Nord Stage 3 is now mainly at home 😅. From Time to Time the Build-in Sounds are totally enough. When more sounds are needed i use mainstage for the additional fancy Sound, use an usb c/b cable and I‘m ready to Go. I really like your approach, the Times of carrying heavy boards from distant parking Lots into uphill churches are finally over! 😄 Keep up the good work! 🙏🏻😊
This is good set-up. Thanks for sharing. Is there an option of buying Sunday’s Sound Keys Rigs and it patches instead of subscription? Thanks and God bless..
Guys you are awesome. My only suggestion is to wear your swag. David you have a perfect Black shirt with SundaySounds on the front. Would really like to see how the Worship set worked out.
awesome video. Had MainStage as it came with the student pro apps bundle, but it was kind of useless with an iMac. A week ago I just purchased a MacBook so this will definitely be of use and this video was very helpful.
@@chaddonal4331 Very solid, very capable, vst audio and midi instrument host capable of complex midi and audio routing within a song/playlist scene structure that switches seamlessly within a show, comprehensive midi osc and scripting control (this adds a ton of possibilities), very well coded for CPU stability and reliability by geniuses who normally respond within a day to me in the support forum... I use it for my stage keyboard setup, but it would be just as at home for bass, guitar, vocal, FOH show setups. I also use it in the live broadcast TV world as a plugin host problem solver over dante.... I quite like it :)
Enjoyed reading all the replies recommending different software (Gig Performer, MK Sensations, Camelot Pro) and hardware (various MIDI controllers and keyboard workstations). The key issues (no pun intended) are how changing the sounds/patches are controlled during a "live" performance, ie accuracy of sound reproduction, moving through set list or song's sections and automation of same - eg. do you have to reach up and hit buttons, mod wheel, or faders while actively playing (so far only Ableton Live provides automation for this?), and to what extent can you play different parts with just a single keystroke - not just laying sounds but actually different chord patterns and/or melodies on multiple patches at the same time, for example irregular pulsating chord patterns, an organ drone with an occasional riff, and a separate synth melody all while playing the underlying piano part accurately, and last but not least how the software handles this vis a vis CPU load, RAM requirements, and loading time from a SSD. Currently even the latest/greatest keyboard workstations, eg Fantom, Montage, Korg or Nord can't do this without the need for external software. So the search continues for the "ultimate" keyboard rig for playing "live" at church, which permits one to "turn off the tracks" while still getting that contemporary "full" sound produced by the multiple keyboard tracks on the original recording. Or perhaps the opposite is what is desired, ie use the multi tracks and just play a simplified keyboard part.
Question... My music store engineer warned me about latency regarding software instruments through an iPad and Audio Interface. He said many pianists are complaining about the latency and pulling away from that model. Should I be concerned about this before buying?
For teams with a smaller budget, instead of the Yamaha Mx88 and a Nano control, get a Alesis VI61. It doesnt feel as good as far as fully weighted keys and durability, but has the nano built in and is a 1/3 the price.
I am sending my multi tracks from x32 on my daw then syncing it to my video after mixing. Is there a way I can control the live mix without being in the technical room?
My Church Montage 8 Keyboard does all of this really well and actually at times better. But of course, Montage 8 should since it's 4k. I've used mainstage and the stuff they show here. But I found another iOs app to me that's like Gig performer (which also I've used) that Kills mainstage when paired with any $1k recent Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Nord keyboard.
@@chaddonal4331 Hey the app is called Camelot Pro. It has a few hiccups but is worth the price of admission. Its GUI is a huge leap over its competitors and there are of course great features and support which is one of the reasons I've switched to using it.
@@davidn.7767 i think is not available in my region because I was searching for it on the App Store and didnt find it. Can you please provide the link of the app so I can download it. That would be helpful
Yes, in CCM Churches they can only seem ever recommend software but in gospel churches they still use mostly hardware. What is so wrong with hardware? We used it for years and it's only getting better.
Hardware is expensive. With software you just need a laptop and controller and you can instantly have thousands of modeled sounds at your hands. If you want a new sound with hardware, you have to buy an entire new piece of equipment. For less than $5k you can get a solid midi controller, computer, and a few software packages that will get you 10,000 plus sounds that are sometimes better than the real thing. Really a no-brainer for newer setups. Not to mention software gives you more control and is way more compact.
Guys! Bought the Caldigit T3 Pro but the cable is so short, won’t reach the floor as I want all (my stuff/DI etc on the floor). Surprisingly the Apple Macbook pro charger cable doesn’t work either, so basically it seems like this cable is proprietary Caldigit, which I’m a bit frustrated that I need to buy another “special cable” again 😂 So musicians just take that into consideration. This Caldigit is designed to be on desk, where port are within reach, that’s why T3 cable is short. Longer cable have to pay $60 extra.
David, I imagine that creating all your sound designs and templates for MainStage and Ableton consumes a lot of your resources. But, have you ever considered supporting other platforms? As a Windows user who is mainly interested in live performance rather than recording, I've adopted Gig Performer as my VST host. With version 4 that was just released, the capabilities are amazing. Thank you!
Dan, Are you aware of any GROUP for Gig Performer for Church Musicians? I have found the Sunday Keys template to be helpful. But I almost never use the stock sounds as they are. In many cases, I find them helpful starting points. But I usually "improve" the strings, pianos, and sometimes pads from other 3rd party sound sources. The LOOK of Gig Performer doesn't draw me in. (The more traditional mixer setup of Logic/Mainstage is so familiar to me; I'm not looking for an alternate approach). But I'm open to a better solution. I have many PA plugins and they are fabulous.
Hi thanks awesome tip. In your experience, Is there a problem with using only the mac audio output? I’m thinking of removing the audio interface from chain, and simply use the Caldigit T3 pro to send out the audio via headphone output jack and thru special DI. Regarding the MIDI, I will just buy those USB to MIDI and go straight to Caldigit as well. Anybody have good reasons to still use Audio Interface if my DI is already a Latop DI (Radial ProAV1)?. Thanks!
What is the name of the Audio Interface you are using? I’ve been using a Focusrite 2+2 and I also have a Zoom Tac 2. You don’t mention in the video what audio interface you are using.
How is he using nano kontrol 2 right now. Big Sur made them useless. Didn’t he say he was using a newer Mac laptop with an M1, that would ship with Big Sur ? Or are they lying and he’s using an older Mac with Catalina ? I purchased the sticker and nano because of Sunday sounds only to find out it does not work for Big Sur. Something about the midi driver according to Apple website. Wish they would make that more known.
The M1 MacBook airs actually compete with the MacBook pros, especially with 16gb RAM. I know people who fully produce with the air. If you can go a bit higher with the pro, I would recommend it.
i am still disappointed about apples decision for not building macbooks in tablet/hybrid format (with detachable keyboard and touchscreen) - then there would be no need to put laptop/tablet so far away from main synthesizer
La laptop - es muy probable q ya la tengas... (hay opciones para windows tambien), el 99% de los teclados tienen midi, un cable de midi-usb no tiene un costo prohibitivo, una interfaz sencilla de dos canales se puede encontrar a bajo precio (usada, aun mas bajo el precio). Implementar teclados a base de midi - ya no es complicado ni costoso.
Great video, but.... I disagree with the premise that a worship team needs to sound exactly like the recording of a song. Keyboard parts on most contemporary worship songs are easy to play. If you insist on sounding exactly like the recording, you will limit the creativity of your team. If you want it to sound exactly like a recording, hire a DJ and play the recording, or play the multitrack. I believe worship teams need to have their own DNA. Just use your hardware or any other software, build a patch that matches how *YOUR* keyboard player plays, and use it. My 2 cents.
Totally agree. This is one of the problems with modern worship bands. They have become repertoire theaters just recreation of somone else's sound. Lamo.... I want you to bring your flavor, to make the song yours. Teams like this have become a franchise operation, just serving up what somone else created. Kinda makes me sad.
We aim for "based on a true story". I think that hits the balance of representing original artist intentionality and remaining free of any slavishness. I love our varying "takes" among our worship leaders and musicians, while maintaining enough semblance to the original.
Jake, I love your videos, but there's an easier way, not as budget friendly as you laid out but the new Roland FANTOM-8 workstation series is a much simpler way to; live layer 16 tracks, MIDI in and out, as well as a built in interface all in one. I love Sunday Keys with Mainstage and the Nano Controllers, they're very useful for every application but as a key player I would definitely recommend moving away from live software and getting a workstation that can do the same and/or possibly more.
They are doing a great job for churches, but as a keyboard player I feel like this is “plastic” bc it lacks of soul. There is a video that I like it’s called “what I hate CCM” in my opinion we have to go one step back and give the music some dynamics and freedom. The only exception that I know is Planetshakers.
I play in a church that has the Roland Juno DS88 with a stereo internal sound card as well which actually sounds great at only $1250. Its One-touch 8 Drum pads allow you to assign seamless song scenes and you have 4 knobs, 4 faders to tweak with ease. I think the setup in this video has its perks but costs more. Mainstage and Sunday Keys are convenient for most so it's the "now" setup, not a "future" setup. - PLEASE Keep reading... Again the video setup is what most are doing but it's the "now" setup so some unaware go this route rather than exploring emerging setups. That's how this setup also started as an emerging future setup. But now it's the present. The future setup is here but hasn't caught on yet. Pc with Gig Performer, or its iOs competitors that are just as great and an ios app like Mk Sensation. MkSensation 2 will be out for iPad soon (I am not affiliated with it). Don't let the color line or sound of Gospel music and CCM music be a barrier to you. MK Sensation sounds and layering is great for both and it is midi CC learn with plenty of great-sounding patches. And I mean great, great, great for Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation, Travis Greene, Maverick City, and more. I play in churches that span these mentioned worship organizations. Again the above setup is good no knocking it. I used it - but I like cutting edge and simplicity in a connected iPad, Mk Sensation, and other apps plugged into the internal sound card of Ds88 or (with a larger budget) a stand-alone Montage or the Montage paired with an iPad. Though risky, I even played an outdoor event to a lawn of 400 people with some musicians in attendance loving the sound of a midi controller and an iPad.
Hi David, thank you for replying to my comments. Your post on my web browser is "below" mine. My comments were more directed towards what Jake was saying than David from Sunday Sounds. I don't believe you can just "down load the patches from MultiTracs, Loop Community, or even the "song specific patches from Sunday Sounds" and they will be "just like the original recording". My rig" is a Roland FA-08 (2500+ tones and lots of tweaking as desired) and Ableton with Omnisphere and Keyscape for the VSTs. I recently upgraded to Ableton Live 11 Suite to take advantage of the "scene follow" in Session mode of time signature, and bpm changes that can occur in contemporary songs. However Live 11 seems less CPU efficient than Live 10, eg just idling with nothing from non active instrument racks with MIDI effects the CPU hovers around 4%, where as before it was 1-2%. And then if I was adding several VSTs from Omnisphere, such as is required to accurately cover all the keys parts in "House Of The Lord" the CPU meter would hit 90% with "crackling" audio at around 50% CPU usage. However if I route the Ableton MIDI effects back through my FA 08 "tones" I can use 15 sounds with the CPU hitting about 30% without audio crackling, and just use Omnisphere where it is really needed.. So I agree there is still a place for a "hardware" keyboard. I have seen some RU-vid videos on Gig Performer, but I haven't tried it yet. I recently purchase an M1 Mac Mini (16GB and 512 SSD) to try and see if I could duplicate my approach to preparing songs in Mainstage as completely as with Ableton Live and my FA 08. It's still a work in progress. Everyone should note that in order to keep up with the current worship song production standards, Sundays Keys 2021 is now using "sampled" sounds in patches and other non included Main Stage patches.
@@allendunning272 Hey Allen, agreed, although they are decent, the sounds Jake refers to aren't exact to the worship songs. Btw the Roland FA 08 you have is another great hardware option to pair software with. I didn't know if I should speak on another competing product app here but guess now I will. Everyone that's a keyboardist should check out Camelot Pro. It doesn't have sounds but like you, some people are already using the best Vst's like Omni and Keyscape. But you can also use MKSensation and other good Vsts and even ios apps with Camelot Pro. I believe Camelot pro and a hardware keybd are infinitely better than mainstage. It controls hardware, software, Vst, ios, midi, audio playback tracks, PDF, and soon lights and media, and much more. I think apps like it are a part of the emerging worship rig. I use it on my iPad connected to Montage 8, Roland Ds88, or Kronos. I walk into church connect 2-3 wires and everything flows. Please let me know what you think about it, Allen. And if anyone else checks Camelot Pro out - let me know...Shout me out and say thanks, Lol.
Nah I use mines too. My church has the Montage 8. It does all of this really well, And I think better without a computer...but again it should since it cost 3k.
@@davidn.7767 right lol i have a moxf 8 as a dummy and i use an modx 7 for synths and organs. I honestly don’t know if ill ever switch to a midi controller
@@DemmisR So true about the Yamaha. And also I play in a church that has the Roland Juno DS88 with a stereo internal sound card as well which actually sounds great at only $1250. It has really great pads, strings, good piano/Rhodes sounds, and a decent organ. Its One-touch 8 Drum pads allow you to assign seamless song scenes and you have 4 knobs, 4 faders to tweak. (Will post this above)
