i wasn't aware there was a lot of controversy in this soulslike vs. character action game space. Usually my criteria for any game I play is "is it fun?" and the conversation ends there.
I wish it did end there trust me, as I said this discourse is likely to grow as time goes on and I wanted to put my foot in the door for my take on the whole thing.
I don't why this is even a debate. Soulslike: You die, run to where you previously died or you lose all currency accumulated prior to dying. Action games? Be active, slice, punch, kick your way through progression, which is what also souls are essentially. So soulslike falls to the action category, but not all action games have to be soulslike. This wouldn't be an issue if you just think of soulslikes as a sub genre. This is so stupid.
@@shutup1037indeed my dear friend. The newbies who just got into the souls genre by elden ring think they know better than many of us veterans who played these games since before they knew about their existence on the gaming world. They must thing God of War, Zelda tears of the kingdom, Spiderman 2, dmc 5 and many others are souls once they put them in hard mode hahaha 😂
Any game where you mostly interact with the world through combat with melee weapons, is an action game. But thats also way too many games to be a useful category. So we made character action games to categorize things like DMC and ninja gaiden. I would say souls games are more like an enemy action game. The enemies dictate the pace and rhythm of the fight, while the player uses a relatively simple moveset
I don't think that's where the distinction is, otherwise even Minecraft is a soulslike. The logical distinction is that soulslikes are RPG, *all* of them are RPGs (I'm talking about the from software ones). And this is why I don't get why people insist on calling Sekiro a Soulslike, it's clearly a character action game.Spiritual successor of Tenchu, inspired by Ninja Garden, (BTW, this is not even the first time that FS makes a game inspired by Ninja Garden), what more character do you want? Oh, and Sekiro is a character, he's not a custom souls protagonist. There's nothing souls in Sekiro, besides the way you recover after death and the fact that it's a from software game, but Armoured Core 6 is a from software game too, and it's not a soulslike.
@@Princemouse9 Imo, The term "Soulslike" is going through the similar thing that happened to the term "Doom Clones" years ago. People will keep comparing games to an influencial cult classic even if they have very little in common until someone come up with the better and more obvious term such as "FPS". Then we can have more on point discussions.
@@AskDQrohfyyeah but the term "doom clone" was never considered a genre, they were genuinely doom clones, same graphics style, same mechanics, hell, same engine even. The term souls-like is used to describe games with a certain amount of mechanics and characteristics in common, just like the term rogue-like or strand-type, I don't think soul-slike is going nowhere, it's the name of the genre now
@@CarlosLlano-z3c I agree with you that the term "Souls-like" is already established itself as a genre name instead of a buzz word but the definition of it is so loose that people are still debating which game is a "Souls-like" or which not. Even the term "Rouge-like", you mentioned, was so broad that people had to come up with the term "Rouge-lite" to describe specific games more accurately. My point is do you ever see people debating on whether a game is FPS or not. Imo, putting "-like" behind an influencial game is such a lame and lazy way to name a genre. It's like calling every Battle Royals "PUBG-likes" or every MOBA "Dota-likes" or Every Farming Sim "Harvest-like" or so on and so forth. I think the term "Souls-like" should be go for good. We create names to communicate better not to confused others.
@@AskDQrohfy yeah but to your example, battle royale was not made PUBG-like because PUBG was based on a Japanese movie called "battle royale", most genres have an inspiration behind it's name or descriptive purpose; as the term fps was coined after those games begun differentiating themselves too much between each other and the term doom clone became obsolete, as the souls-like games share so much of their identity with dark souls, I don't think that term is going to disappear, just as metroidvania games, a game that has slight inspiration in souls but doesn't share too much characteristics with it is just an action-rpg or an action game
I personally say that soulslikes are enemy action games. The enemy gets the flashy combo. They get to juggle you like you are a mob enemy in a Character Action Game. Whereas you use very simplistic tools to combat these complex enemies. Consider DS1, Light and Hravy attacks are your primary offensive tools, Blocking and Rolling are your primary defensive tools. It is according to this definition that Sekiro is a soulslike. The bosses get the cool attacks. They rarely stagger. Their combos can't be interrupted. Genichiro and Isshin use lightning at you. Now Sekiro needs to fund his openings, he can only deflect these cool combos. These combos knock him back. Essentially a lot of the combat revolves around responses to the enemy. In contrast in Character Actions, the skill expression is in setting up your combos. Something requiring good game knowledge and knowledge of the character kit. Button mashing gets you killed. You need precise inputs for specific combos. I was even more sure of this after the Elden Ring DLC. I think the Rellana Twin Moon attack (the boss version) will fit right in in a DMC protag's kit.
@@Messmer-The-Impaler-n8i oh okay! Good point, I really like this take and the more I think about it the more you could apply it to other soulslikes. Stellar point for real!
but the thing is that a lot of combos in sekiro CAN be interrupted, most bosses have 2 combos max, and the rest of the time you just deflect once and start attacking again. the way the enemy responds to you is a huge part of the game, that's why they cancel their own attacks to block yours, to reward you for aggression by making it a proper defensive option as well
@@Zayd-bg1pt yes, but the response revolves almost entirely around knowledge of enemy kits rather than your own kit. You can get by in Sekiro by just R1, L1, Jump and Dodge/Mikiri. In contrast in Character Actions, a lot depends on knowledge of your kits, of your combos, etc. More so than familiarity with the enemy.
Character Action games are like playing instruments - encouraging creativity but also scoring your performance. My personal favorite genre and, once you reach a nice skill level, you can pick up and play so many different action games like how you might be able to play all sorts of different songs. Soulslikes are like going on adventures. They’re much more immersive, better world building, stories, lore, more cohesive level design, but also based more on progression than performance. A great channel called the electric underground talks about this in a recent video. Nioh and Wukong are good examples of games that blend the genres in interesting ways. Phantom blade looks like it will do the same. I wish we got more character action games but there’s already a lot of amazing ones out there, and the level of replay value they have means you don’t need too many of them in the first place.
For me, Character Action games still deliver worldbuilding and lore that can hook and fascinate me a lot too. Especially so in the Darksiders series and the more recent Soulstice. Heck, even Bayonetta, a game that pushes me away because of its tone, i have found fascinating for reasons of the symbology behind each of the Angels of Paradiso. And every trinket or other item you can equip has a story associated to it as well, of people and witches that have come before. Similarly so with Darksiders on the weapons front, mainly Darksiders 2. That's the game that expanded the universe a LOT with the Nephilim, the home realm of the Makers, Elder Eideard's explanation on how the Constructs operate, establishing Heaven and Hells as having outposts in other realms beyond... well, Heaven and Hell, having a specific Realm of the Dead which had its own history with an insane ruler, and some more things. Soulstice's case is helped by there being a Codex written by an in-game recurring character, which has chapters on Weapons, Enemies, Characters and Locations which go quite in-depth on all of them, sometimes in flowery prose. For example, the first area, the docks, are at one point in its codex entry compared to the grin of a scruffy sailor. "It is a place where anybody can feel welcomed, but nobody should feel at home." Said character, Layton the Observer, doubles as a merchant and appears once in every level. And with his appearance, there is the option to have a conversation with two subject options every time. For me, a game being "immersive" is based in part on my own willingness on engaging with a game world. I don't think the writing should do all the heavy lifting: a player should be able to engage with a game on its own home field, on its own terms. Another thing that makes me feel more immersed in a world, is how genuine a game and tale is with itself.
I want the simplicity of Prince of Persia with the combat intricacies of a SoulsLike. I hate using souls to increase a stat by single point which doesn't showcase any substantial immediate difference. I prefer the Sekiro route. Just let me focus on the game, don't overwhelm me with tens of armours each with their upgrade path. This is one of the reason I felt God of War just edged itself from becoming a masterpiece for me. With a story so tightly written and well paced, each cinematic flowing so smoothly from gameplay and vice versa, I hate to see that I'll have to spend minutes looking at armour upgrade sheets and all. They need those windows to justify thr player looking for hacksliver, and looking for hacksilver means player spends more time on the game. The game would've been much more tightly knitted have they removed the armour upgrades. Kept only the skill tree. We already have enough reasons to explore the lands like finding ravens and increasing max health and rage bar. We don't need another artificial padding of the game which takes you out of the gameplay.
I see where you're coming from, I personally really like the new gows rpg stuff, build crafting and customization and such, but a more focused experience overall would have still been good as well, maybe they could have focused more on other mechanics or added deffrent ones? And for the record I'd kill for a new Prince of Persia in its original form
I agree with you, but the rpg element in soulslike is a main factor that basically gives you never ending replay value, there are so many builds and play styles you can make work in soulslike game that are very viable. I see what you mean with it being overwhelming but once you have your build down it’s very rewarding knowing you precisely tuned your kit to your play style, I usually make builds like dexterity builds to make souls game feel more like a actions game as opposed to a souls game.
Exactly. Sekiro isn't a souls game like bloodborne, dark souls, demon's souls or elden ring. It's a ninja game with a few elements of this genre. And people Stil put sekiro in every single top hardest souls games, bosses, areas, levels and more as if it was a souls game, which really is annoying when miyazaki has said that sekiro is different from the others and not a souls game, but oh these people don't understand or simply just let it be lmao 😂
@@jerm5466 I think it would also be wise to mention fromsofts wierd 3rd child, Tenchu. Which as far as im told is also a game which influenced sekiro if I'm understanding that right?
Devil May Cry surely is is Dark Souls of God of War games. Seriously: im a huge From software fan. Tried DMC5 for the first time, this year and had the time of my life
I do believe the main issue for this comes from the fact that soulslike are in many ways more accessible (not easier necessarily) and have been increasingly becoming more accessible with more digestible environments and less of a higher skill sealing compared to the top of action games. So having a genre that every small time developer tries to cash in on ruin it's image for many of us. I for a fact felt fatigued of the genre feeling so stale after DS3 and only highly enjoyed Lies Of P, id go as far as saying (Bloodborne aside) it's probably the most well balanced and crafted soulslike by a margin. So yeah action games have become steadily more niche thus not really having a steady place in the industry creating frustration against the overflow of Soulslikes from action fans and then the majority of more casual players slowly becoming accustomed to Souls makes them hate the higher skill requirements of action games creating a hate circle instead of leaving space for both genres to grow.
As a fan of both genres here’s my short take. Action games fans are annoying about self expression in their games and the enemies you fight are usually very simple and lacking, you don’t master the game you master the character, that’s it. Souls fans tend to be annoying because they call EVERYTHING a soulslike or souls lite, like how could they call Cuphead a Soulslike? And Hollow Knight isn’t one either and I stand behind that lol. In souls games your character is simple, you don’t need to master them THAT much, but you need to master the game. And as a bonus I’ll include Berserk fans. Who will see anything in a FromSoftware game and call it a Berserk reference which is very annoying and lowkey insulting to the creator tbh (same goes for when calling a game a soulslike, it’s belittling it in a way). And yeah. Tunic is a certified banger !
My man survival horror does resource management so different to Soulslikes, and better imo, it drives tension, makes the player think and can't be easily gotten rid of. If you use a healing item in a survival horror, you've used it, but in soulslike you can just refill all of your flasks anytime, even after you die.
You are right, however that doesn't mean it's not important. and even though Souls likes handle Resources with less importance then survival horror, there's still some level of importance of rationing with out your healing Objectively speaking, yes survival horror games handle it better and I do agree with that statement too. but maybe that just means that resource management in character actions and souls likes is just an understated mechanic?
@@Princemouse9 I do like how Sekiro and ER handle healing where you have to know when to heal or choose to either heal or attack during an opening in a boss combo. It's just that DS1 - DS3 allow you to heal so safely and the whole refillable flasks at every resting point just diminishes the whole "limited healing items" for me. Also in soulslikes you can just heal through all your mistakes and refill. Where as in survival horror you're still down healing items after any use of them
What I dont like in an action game is the over dedication for long combos tend to throw the element of crowd control and spacing. Then my other problems are parry and a big dodge roll that doesnt get much punish which souls games tend to have since enemies on those kind of games all possess a magnetic attack so repositioning is definitely out of the question. With all this nitpicks I got, I really just want a 3d beat em up. The sad thijg is that you can't blame people who enjoys 3d beat em up for thinking that musou, character action and soulslike died thanks to evolution.
As someone who has played the entire Soulsborne series (post Demon's Souls. No PS5's here, just a PS4) and regularly enjoys Soulslikes that offer different experiences... there really is nothing like Devil May Cry. This past month, I bought DMC4 and 5 on sale and I feel so disappointed in myself for not beating DMC4 as an owner of it in the 360 days. I love suffering as a mere guy with a knife named John Ballscratchus facing gods just as much as Iove violating everything on-screen by merely *_breathing_* as Vergil. PS: I once thought as a teen that Metal Gear Rising was the best action game ever. I, sadly, was mistaken. My memories have been broken by the storm that is approaching while enjoying some Chai (Hi-Fi Rush).
If you like Hi-Fi Rush, perhaps there's something interesting in No Straight Roads for you. Mind, it's a different type of action game. And it's a lot more boss-centric, shorter, and the complexity isn't as expansive. Whereas HFR is about the rhythm with awesome music, NSR is really about the music in both themes and gameplay. HFR bosses attack on beat, NSR bosses have different attacks associated with different instruments of their boss track. And depending on if you get the overhand or the boss, the music dynamically switches from the Normal to either EDM (boss' advantage) or Rock (player's advantage). As for how the music reflects in themes: you will recognize the bosses having tracks based on different types/genres of music, and the collectables you can find --or outright story scenes-- tell of why they started making music and what it means to them. The game itself also shows music as an industry and the effect that *that* has on people.
I really think that the mix of both worlds is a preferable option for me, and a natural evolution of the action genre. Stellar Blade, Nioh games, the berserk of khazan game. Black Myth Wukong also has neat concept that needs to be expanded, but has some of the best bosses I've ever fought.
You missed some pretty big factors when discerning a character action game vs a soulslike. World design, quest design, enemy encounters, etc. This is why I consider Wukong a soulslike. The world layout is souls, it's quest design is like souls with how you interact with npc's and quest progression and enemy placement, encounters and functionality is like souls. You don't get enemies hiding in corners to 1 shot you or push you off a cliff in a character action game. In a character action game fighting multiple enemies at once is how the game is designed. In Souls and likewise Wukong fighting multiple enemies at once is a huge risk and its camera and lock on system is not suited for it. Additionally like souls and unlike character action games you aren't actually obligated to fight, you can just run past everything to get to the boss.
We fighting over this now too? Oh god. I love both genres, but not all games. I will say that playing Bayonetta for days and then jumping into a soulslike or vice-versa is tremendously jarring as they are completely different yet both can be described as you running around killing stuff that really wants to kill you. I think that's amazing and shows they both have enough differences to grown and succeed as different genres. Don't compare stuff, just ask yourself if you're having fun. Are you? Good. No? Well that's not your type of game, but that doesn't mean the GENRE itself is the issue. Monster Hunter and God Eater are both action games, but they are definitely NOT the same thing. Oh god... people is going to start calling Monster Hunter a soulslike at some point in the future aren't they? Because stats and slow progress, being much weaker than the enemies and all that...
Both genres are valid. As far as the fandoms are concerned, character action fans are like JoJo fans when it comes to toxicity whereas souls fans are like the Gen Xer’s of TikTok when they heard a lie about our generation trying to cancel Eminem
This is the perfect opportunity to recommend a game called Spark The Electric Jester 3. A blend of character action and high speed platformer, which I don't think has ever been done before. Very good video!
Although not a high-speed 3D platformer, there were some PS2 exclusive platformers by name of Kya: Dark Lineage and the two Maximo games. Those had a fair amount of combat focus. The Maximo games are often said to be a 3D spiritual successor to Ghosts 'n Goblins, while Kya: Dark Lineage's combat is more like a 3D beat-em-up with a surprising amount of complexity and depth for the genre. As in: - Enemies come in different types and subtypes, which "learn" what moves you use the most at different speed, being more aggressive, blocking more against those moves and such depending on said type and subtype. They can wield weapons too which influences their moveset. - Blocking is a hard counter against any straight-ahead attack. - Meanwhile, a Grab is a hard counter against any block. If you keep blocking for too long, the enemy *will* perform a grab move to punish you for it. Higher-type enemies have Unblockable moves as well. - Kya herself unlocks grabs which have different animations depending on where you stand relative to the enemy. (in front, behind, sideways). From kneeing and elbowing an enemy in the ribs, to grabbing their tail to use them as a meat shield, or kick them into something, or use them as a flail. - You learn advanced kick combos, launchers, a groin kick, better evasive moves, even a move to jump onto an enemy's shoulders and ride them around for a bit. There's a bunch of other different bits to the gameplay in Kya too. From very light stealth and puzzles, to board sliding, wind gliding, animal riding and skydiving. Those are quite quick to learn how they operate. Still have some jank and can be challenging, but it's not hard to learn. It's one of my favourites for PS2 and there hasn't been anything like it since. Can definitely be worth looking into!
I never thought of these genres as particularly similar. Character action games have their roots in beat-em-ups, whereas soulslikes have their roots in metroidvania.
Art is allowed to mutate and break down barriers if the artist desires. And I do consider video games to be art. I would say Black Myth can easily be both and neither at the same time.
You nail yourself there my dear friend. Black myth wukong is evolving both genres more than from software, miyazaki, capcom, santa Mónica or any other developer has done in the recent years. Truly is becoming a new thing and we can't congratulate game science, its director and black myth wukong for doing this. Something very special is in front of us.
21:04 I'm so glad this video exists. I've been trying to tell people this forever. I view Wukong as its own little thing. Wukong is both Souls and God of War, but for some weird reason people keep thinking it has to be one or the other.
strange, i always kinda thought of soul's likes and chara action games as two sides of the same vaguely sado/masochistic coin. chara action can starts off sadistic as the protag seems so over powered compared to the enemies, and souls likes have mind dumbing difficulty till you "git gud."
Not gonna lie, the influence of "Souls-like" games has kind of infested the indie gaming scene and I'm more-or-less not a fan of so many of the blatantly obvious knock-offs. Whether those knock-offs are either copying the dark gothic post-apocalyptic premise or the gameplay style. Either way, it is a bit over-saturated at this point.
True and while I'm thinking about it, I have to wonder if we're going through some sort of franchise fatigue for Souls, maybe even more so a genre fatigue?
This sounds exactly the same as turn based games versus action games. Biggest change came when Square stopped making turn based games with FFX, as their main titles, but the rise of games like Persona and Baldur's Gate 3 show that people still love them. I think that sometimes a publisher exhausts a genre and oversaturate it for a time which means they have to put in more variety and less pushes for one large title.
Also soulsborn are more a subgenres of rpgs if anything but honestly a souls like kinda covers alot of things like the method of storytelling and or the gameplay/progression or what not. But the way I see it "souls like" is a blanket term that is given context by other genres like action or platformer. But with that being said i dont think that wukong is a souls like or that it doesn't come close enough to me, the same goes for god of war but to me thats far more concrete.
I just hate that souls likes seem to have pushed character action games into some hole. All we have is God of war and... Atlas fallen? Where the fuck are the games like PS2 prince of Persia?
For other high action type games, you may find something interesting in these following ones. They're not all Character Action games specifically, but i want to spread word on 'em wherever i can. - No Straight Roads (2020. It's an oddball though, quite short and relatively simple. But solid and cool either way). - Soulstice (2022) - Hi-Fi Rush (2023) - Cookie Cutter (2023. Actually a hand-drawn 2D metroidvania, but there is a high combat focus with different individual weapons) - Decline's Drops (recently released 2D action platformer) - Genokids (yet to release) - Enenra Daemon Core (yet to release) - Immortal: And the Death that Follows (same story) - Mightreya (once more) - Jamphibian (three guesses) - Magenta Horizon (There's a demo out. Full act 1 out of 3. Seems to be a fairly long game) WOuld want to mention Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. People say it's a Souls-type game and has some overlap, but it's not as punishing and the combat is more like a 3D brawler/beat-em-up with different types of martial arts styles you can find. Hope this list proves interesting!
Soulslikes have evolved, they aren’t really the die and lose all your currency just to go back and get it anymore. It evolved into something much more fluid. It’s in the presentation mainly. Simple move set, intentional combat with attention to enemy animations with boss spectacles. The influence of soulslike is much more broad now ever since sekiro. The mechanics bleed into more casual adventure games like Jedi fallen order and wukong. Sekiro is definitely a soulslike but is also a action adventure, which is why it’s my favorite game. You can’t get mad, elden ring sold so many copies of course devs want to make their game similar for a piece of the cut…. Like you said numbers don’t lie and honestly I think gamers are just craving a game that gives them a challenge at the end of the day not a game that babies you with cut scenes and easy hack and slash combat.
I'm happy with Both Genres, after suffering from Souls games, I just need these casual action games to blow off some steam, then back to suffering again. Found the perfect balance 💯
For other high action type games, you may find something interesting in these: - No Straight Roads (2020. It's an oddball though, quite short and relatively simple. But solid and cool either way). - Soulstice (2022) - Hi-Fi Rush (2023) - Cookie Cutter (2023. Actually a hand-drawn 2D metroidvania, but there is a high combat focus with different individual weapons) - Decline's Drops (recently released 2D action platformer) - Genokids (yet to release) - Enenra Daemon Core (yet to release) - Immortal: And the Death that Follows (same story) - Mightreya (once more) - Jamphibian (three guesses) - Magenta Horizon (There's a demo out. Full act 1 out of 3. Seems to be a fairly long game) WOuld want to mention Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. People say it's a Souls-type game and has some overlap, but it's not as punishing and the combat is more like a 3D brawler/beat-em-up with different types of martial arts styles you can find. Hope this list proves interesting!
@@Princemouse9 It's just too fast-paced, action-heavy, very limited in any buildcraft to be called an RPG. It's really between BMW and DMC in the Action Game Subgenres. Maybe it's just me, but the playable character has way too many freedoms and equalizing factors that just happen to demand higher skill to utilize them all, where in, say, Dark Souls 3, you can enjoy a minimal investment into your character despite how many options are available and still have a tough time because of how much more important numbers are in that game. Numbers matter in both. Skill matters in both. But one values numbers much more than skill until the same skill ceiling is reached. That said, the skill floor in Sekiro and Black Myth are not nearly as "forgiving" as in DS3.
@Princemouse9 basically what courier said, but to add on to that, I don't fully agree with "soulslikes" as a genre, what a souls game is is just far too broad and vague imo a soulslike has to be an action RPG and it needs to have a bonfire equivalent and an estus adjacent and a stamina bar to manage oh and it needs to be dark fantasy and it needs to have overly complicated story and lore ect ect, everyone has their own idea what a soulslike is, whereas there is zero doubt or debate as to what a metroidvania is, or what a rouge-like is but at the same time I can't deny that there is a large sub-genre of games that seek to emulate the souls games, and so my conclusion is that "soulslike" is a legitimate genre, but the question remains, what IS a "soulslike"? And I think it's very simple, it's right there in the name "soulslike" a game that's "like souls" and the point to all this is to answer your question, the reason I believe sekiro is not a souls game/soulslike is simple, it doesn't feel or play like souls
@@justsomegamer01 ok! You know what, I'll take that. in my personal belief I say sekiro isn't soulslike either and really I mentioned it so that people would consider and question weather it was in the first place. Everyone was (and still are to some extent) so quick to lump it in with other from soft souls games, but I wanted people to start thinking about it again
As an apreciator of both genres I have to say: A good Character Action game is easier to come by from studios that aren't Capcom or Platinum than a good soulslike that come from a company that isn't From Software. Not that I think that the right spot is harder to achieve in. that formula, but as a genre It's still a new thing. The first Devil May Cry was released in 2001 while Demon Souls came in 2009 and we're only getting the first actually GOOD Non-FS Puninshing Action RPGs last year with Lies of P.
It's not a this vs that to me, I play both styles of action, souls and hack n slash types. I don't prefer one over the other but I grew up in the nes era, when you just tried everything
I'm going to assume after watching this video in full that you have yet to play Stellar Blade? Please, do not allow the controversy of the ''sexiness'' to keep you from playing the game. Stellar Blade is the perfect marriage of ''Character Action'' and ''Soulslike''. Stellar Blade has some of the most satisfying and stylish combat in modern gaming that we haven't seen since games like DMC5 and Revengence. If you think Wukong is great then Stellar Blade is going to blow you away.
Let me be fair I like both styles but games like devil May cry Bayonetta ninja gaiden are absolute bangers. nioh for example draw the line very well I'm a bigger action hack and slash kind of guy. Although my favorite from the soul series is bloodborne and sekiro so I like faster-paced combat.
Your sentiments and mine are pretty similar I play games for fun. It has been baffling the controversies around artistic choices wether they’re incentivized or not; has been ridiculous and mostly not even directed at the the real cause. It’s certain games I’m still looking forward to that you would think are the anti-Christ announcing its return. Like Assassins creed shadows and ghost of Yotei, even Monster Hunter Wilds has controversy in the community. It’s all really exhausting now forcing developers to mass appeal to markets which ends up sapping all of the fun out of games. Really it should be shareholders control should be scaled back and more weight should be onto the talents artistic knowledge and experience, to deliver an experience they want to deliver. Because at the end of the day they are the ones with the know how. All the recent layoffs because leadership wanted to full stop on things no one asked for and the talent pays really sucks and just chips down on the experiences that would’ve been monumental. All in all I’d wish people wouldn’t take everything so literal and go back to crux which is fun.
Look, as someone who calls himself a faithful apostle of Character Action and has commented on social media his frustration with this over-saturation of soulslike in the industry, I still think I have a few points on this topic that can clarify and deepen this discussion rather than attacking personal preferences and opinions. First of all, I find the use of the word "genres" in video games to be quite inconsistent in the rules and parameters of what defines a set of mechanics and their execution to make a genre. Here are some examples of what I mean: Why are DOOM games not Survival Horrors when it fulfills all the functions and mechanics of one?, Why do we call JRPGs after their localization when they are Party-based RPGs while most of Western RPGs are Avatar-based just call RPG?, Does this mean that all From Software RPGs are JRPGs similar to Persona and Final Fantasy games because they come from Japan? If the only distinction of a Metroidvania is its back-tracking maze maps, then why aren't Soulslikes Metroidvanias adapted to 3D? Why do we call Immersive Sim like that if it has more similarities with the RPG but is executed through emergent gameplay? Wouldn't it be better to call them Emergent RPG or ERPG? I guess you get my point, There is no consensus on what the criteria would be for declaring it as a genre in a universal way or with general agreement. But the reason why I make say this is because I personally don't see the confrontation between Character Action and Soulslike as a clash of different genres, but rather a disagreement between two concepts that make up the construction of a game. I see Soulslike as a formula mechanic for Action RPG (although we could also call it Hack'n'Slash because the name comes from tabletop RPGs referring to a style of game focusing the role options on offense and action), while what we call Character Action is a design philosophy that is mostly present in Beat'em Up or also called Brawlers (which I do consider as a game genre because it is a mechanical specification on how to carry out the Action just like the Shoot'em Up /Shooter) which consists of the game mechanics having as their intention and purpose the development and deepening of the playable character through action, thus leaving the player with the role of a actor who is incentivize to give his best performance but making it clear the playable character is the center of the work. Now the reason why these concepts come into conflict is because, when applied in a game, they require a similar but dissonant mindset between them. Soulslikes being a Hack'n'Slash formula, much of its mechanics are dedicated to providing customization options so that the player can project themselves into the experience through the avatar, emphasizing the player's expression. While Character Actions rarely give a minimal level of customization to leave the playable identity of the character intact, limiting to player's interpretation of the mechanics. That's why games that try to add both to their design like Darksiders 3, Nioh, or Clash: Artifacts of Chaos (despite being good games) feel inconsistent in their foundation by placing customization options for characters with pre-established history and preferences, making this clash of currents in the classic dilemma between how much power is given to the player versus the direction and intentionality of the author. But anyway, does this mean that there can't be a way for stop or minimize this rivalry? Fortunately, yes, and we have already seen evidence of how both can be implemented organically with creativity and ingenuity. The reason why Sekiro, Jedi Fallen Order or Thymesia are played differently from other soulslike games is that, despite having this formula, these games reduce the RPG components to a minimum to use it under the philosophy of Character Action to present playable characters characterized by facing the conflict on disadvantage or even being vulnerable to a certain point. These last sensations are the ones that most evoke soulslike in their beginnings but are used as something inherent to the character instead of just defining the experience, so much so that even games which does not share much similarity with soulslike like Hellblade 1 and 2, but draws on certain aspects such as the shoulder camera or the setting to emphasize the mental and mechanical fragility of the character. But even with everything I said and believe, then why do I insist that soulslike are causing problems in the industry? Well, I do justify it for those reasons. The first is because of the over-representation they have had in the medium for more than a decade, from the number of games as well as in game journalism as the "best action gameplay made". And the second reason is the excessive implementation of the formula in games that simply do not need it or its application does not make sense, the most recent example that I can remember being the case of Black Myth Wukong, which is based on a character iconic fictional character is incoherent that has it as its core gameplay (i.e., an ultra-immortal monkey god needs a stamina bar to see how much he can swinging his staff around until gets tired?). Well, I have nothing against those who like soulslike, I have some games that I like too, but you have to understand that the reception it has in the media is a bit too much.
@@maximilianoohmke5625 I'm personally attached to the points on genres you made, theres a small part of me that wonders if genres are kinda outdated? I know that sounds stupid, and genres acting as tags for games as labels, serving as cursory glances for said game is still a belief I hold, but as time goes on and games become more experimental maybe genres are just too rigid for what a game might be going for? Messy or ill-defined genres don't help in this regard I feel. This all could be just me talking outta me ass but at the same time I think we might need a better way to quickly denote a game, if at all.
@@Princemouse9 You may not have noticed, but I am a person of letters and I am more familiar with literature, in fact I am an aspiring writer and most of my criteria when observing and evaluating a game come from what I have learned from reading. In literature or basically in any artistic medium that carries a narrative foundation, genres are distinguished in favor of the premises and/or tones that they can carry, the various subgenres being specifications of how to approach these premises. For example, within the fantasy genre there are two subgenres called "urban fantasy" and "magical realism", both of which share many similarities but with a way of executing them so specific that this distinction becomes necessary. Now as for games, the reason why this same logic could not be applied is because it is a medium that prioritizes interactivity over narrative, with games that are closest to have a premise is the setting or aesthetic direction, so the most logical thing would be to establish genres according to the mechanics that define the playable core. But due to technological advancement that has allowed the development of mechanically deeper games with a great variety in content, resulting in more genres and subgenres that are either too abstract for immediate understanding or too specific for creative ingenuity.
The best parry feeling goes to Nine Sols (though I haven't played Sekiro) Cookie Cutter is another good one. God of War II also had a really satisfying parry system.
Heck yeah, super glad to see somebody who knows of Cookie Cutter! And a bit surprising to see someone talk about its parries in a positive way-- so many people have complained about it. I don't mind the parry system, it feels tight but after five tries against Bakasura, i was able to kill him in about a minute and a half or so with parries alone. I never even got to see his fire geyser attack in any of those attempts because either - He killed me too quickly - Or i killed *him* very quickly. (The wandering Croackos enemies in the Crystal Pits) felt somewhat similar in terms of timing for his parryable combo, too) I'm very excited for the future of Cookie Cutter and what else it has to offer!
@@jurtheorc8117 People complained about it in the beginning, but the devs loosened it up. It used to be even tighter lol. Personally, I think that takes the specialness away from the parry, but whatever. It's still a great parry nonetheless. It's really satisfying when you do it every time. One thing I didn't like about Cookie Cutter was that cliff hanger ending. I wanted to finish the story, and who knows how long, if ever, we'll get the rest of it. It was a good game that depicted "punk" very well. I also really liked the homage to Battle Toads as well as Guacamelee. That was very cool.
@@alexcrock7942 Yea, I didn't like the reboot Gows. They were no longer GOW, they were Hellblade with a GOW skin. Between the two parries though, I'd say I enjoyed parrying in GOW II more, but if you haven't played Hellblade, check it out.
This reminds me of the online argument people had when Black Myth: Wukong came out. Half of the people called it a soul like and the other half called it an action RPG. I see it as more of an action RPG but, it does have souls “elements” I guess. Why that matters I always was baffled by it but you made it make sense. It’s this kinda camp and tribalism that surrounds it.
Thank you, and yeah that discourse was the reason this video even became an idea tbh, just idk, felt like I had my own take on the matter and it kinda exploded into a 30 min video lol
You nail yourself there my dear friend. Black myth wukong is evolving both genres more than from software, miyazaki, capcom, santa Mónica or any other developer has done in the recent years. Truly is becoming a new thing and we can't congratulate game science, its director and black myth wukong for doing this. Something very special is in front of us. I cannot wait to see what comes next for this game.
Thank you for the video, and your take on this matter. You did a great job expressing where you stand and I'm sure this took some time for you to get your thoughts out properly So props to you for even making this video. You've earned a sub and I'm looking forward to more from you. I just wanna get that out of the way in case my comment becomes too long or rambly down the line. Good stuff homie! I noticed my video was mentioned in the first few seconds along with a few creators videos that I've also seen in the RU-vid space. I cant speak for them, only myself; even though my video frames my take as more on the action side over the souls side, I am by no means an extreme one way or another (you never claimed otherwise, so I wont put words in your mouth. I just wanted to clarify because you mentioned the origin of this video came from anger before you were able to see points from both sides. If I was part of that anger then I'm sorry for that) You are correct in believing that this debate won't be solved anytime soon. But videos like yours are needed just as much as videos like mine. Because healthy discussion occurs. I'm always open to new perspectives even if my own thoughts don't change. One thing I didn't mention in My last video that Ill be mentioning in my future videos is where I believe the souls genre shines over action games that I prefer (i.e. level design etc). Black Myth Wukong funny enough is also what ill be mentioning. That video i made thats in your intro isn't perfect or even finished (which is my own fault) but it does serve as a vessel for my preference as well as showcasing where action games stand out. However, I understand that everyone has their preferences, and that's why I wanted to be fair and show examples of how souls games are expressive, even if it's not on the level of things I prefer. I enjoy both genres just like yourself and even though my value system groups combat in games pretty universally regardless of genre, I won't deny where these games stand out in their own field. Thanks for reading this and I'll be keeping an eye on more of your content, or even potentially furthering this discussion with you if time allows. Be well 🔥
@@francoiscarriere152 I'm glad you think so! I Echo largely the same sentiment you said here in regards to your video, I personally think any opinions are worth considering so long as they can both be constructively criticized, and also considered for all their worth, both in equal measure imo. Me saying that I was angry might have been the wrong word, more so I guess I'm just sad that there's so much discontent for both parties. And just for the record you also made an excellent video on the topic that vastly outshines the general quality of mine, and I just want to say kudos for that!
I don't hate souls games. I hate it when people say "my game is like devil may cry, I swear" and then you play it and see it plays NOTHING like Devil May Cry! Style Action games feel like an endangered species! But yeah, Souls games splintered off of Action RPGs, which is the ADHD cousin of your more typical Turn based RPG. :P You typically expect RPGs with action elements to be more simplistic or rigid in favor of being a thinking man's game. The catch, I feel, is that much of the so called "soulslike" genre kinda feels stuck in the Demon/DarkSouls 1 era when the creator of those games has already moved on and matured as a developer, making whatever he feels clicks well. Miyazaki isn't thinking about what the intricacies of this genre is, he's thinking like Miyazaki and trying to make all sorts of games he may want to play, in the same way Miyamoto thinks like Miyamoto. But I do enjoy both kinds of games as long as they subtly make it clear whether I should think smart or think freeflow creativity. I just wish there were more of my kind of hack n slash game though, because they don't come out much...
Funnily enough, there's a game from 2022 that actually *is* within the genre of DMC/Darksiders/Bayonetta-type games, but due to the name i reckon a good amount of people thought it was a soulslike. It's called Soulstice. Can warmly recommend, it's one of my favourites in the genre by now. Got its ups and downs and in-betweens and the ups, on both gameplay and world + characters, outweigh the downs for me. For some upcoming character action games, you may want to keep your eyes on the likes of - Genokids - Enenra Daemon Core - Magenta horizon - Mightreya - Jamphibian - Magenta Horizon (2D rather than 3D) - And *maybe* the recently-released Decline's Drops as well. More of a 2D action platformer than outright in the Character Action genre but it does have a combat focus. Would want to say the same about the 2D hand-drawn animated metroidvania Cookie Cutter. Got quite the combat emphasis there.
I remember someone trying to gaslight me into buying a soul-like when I was in a character action mood. The funny part is how and why he failed. I was asking about doing stylish and creative things with the combo mechanics and he kept mentioning aggression as if he was trying to hide his anger behind the other side of the screen. Never have I found someone’s poorly masked toxicity so amusing
Your list of things that black myth wukong dose seems a lot like things sekiro dose. I am yet to play wukong but from watching some footage as-well as from videos like yours they seem very similar in the way that they play. They both have a single wepon, a skill tree, unaquiple moves such as mekiri and emobalize. The only difference i can see is that in sekiro there is a small amount of bike variate from prosthetics.
It was an interesting debate to get a look into but my opinion is still that the difference between soulslikes and other character action games is entirely in world, level, and encounter design, because they use level and encounter design inspired by old school tabletop roleplaying games. You can kinda call a soulslike a 3D metroidvania kina like a zelda game. When it comes to combat traits like sure dark souls don't have animation cancelling but there are plenty of action games that aren't soulslikes who don't have that. And all of that doesn't really have a lot to do with this video. I'm also a bit perplexed because I feel like there is a much more thorough differentation in the core combat loop between spectacle fighters and other character action games than there is between soulslike and other character action games. Anyway, cool video, hope the next one is also good.
Definitely merging the two and then going farther into the RPG + (good) open world genres is where my highest joy will be unlocked. Nioh 2 did some DMC stuff and that was awesome, but it also increased the RPG progression systems. However, it is so linear, no jumping, bad map design, etc. that it got stale quick. Elden Ring is amazing, but could use some more reward system and upgrade systems and also have some greater utility in combos and moveset options. Action games are visceral and badass but often spongey dumb enemies, alow progression systems and lame level design leave me bored and in tedium. Open worlds often have dope movement mechanics, but bad combat. cRPGs can have crazy progression systems and intricate worlds, but being a little too hollow, slow or boring, combat wise for me. The perfect fusion dance is needed for sure.
Watching this video I have some thoughts. The first was Monster Hunter. That seems like a weird middle ground that is both its own thing and fits both categories. I feel it should be included in the discussion. Second is a question on vocabulary. Is Souls-like a genre or a collection of game design conventions? I ask because Doom-Clone and Halo-Killer have similar stories before being codified into FPS and its sub genres. I think it is time to step back and actually consider the acronyms and names that are used to describe our games. It seems what was technical terms are being mutated.
So i have (maybe) an interesting 2 cents on this. Being that GoW 2018 is my most played game and Sekiro is my #2. Both sides of the coin. And i really enjoyed your point about Sekiro differing from "Souls" and how alot of these are more Sekiro clones than Dark Souls lol My point for Sekiro is that it also was my first "Souls" game. I was late to the show and i had Xbox at the time and didn't even play Bloodborne (2nd Fav FromSoft game now that i have a PS5). It was my first forray into that world and i fell in love with it that when i tried to play Dark Souls i was very disappointed at first because i thought it would be similar. GoW and other "Character action" games have much less intricate level design than "Soulslike". Its more about the enemies and your performance so to speak. Whereas in "Soulslikes" its about a surviving the area until you unlock a shortcut/bonfire. The levels themselves are an enemy until a specific point and then reward you for persevering. Just look at the genius opening area of Bloodborne (An absolute masterwork of level design!) Character Action game levels are not an enemy, they are a beautiful or cool backdrop to further the immersion and power fantasy of being the main character. Combat being central to both sides, and that GoW and Sekiro both have absolutely stellar combat in my opinion. Some similarities and definitely some differences that coincide with their subgenres. GoW has a heft and weight to it that gives into the power fantasy. It does have a parry mechanic tho, but still not a souls/sekiro-like...why not? Because Souls/Sekiro-likes combat is more a chess game in my opinion. As stated in the video you get locked in your inputs. So you cant be blazing through buttons and combos. You have to take your time, think moves ahead. Theres a push AND pull. An offense AND deliberate defense. Sekiro is master at this with it's parry mechanic YET the entire mantra of the game is, "hesitation is defeat." The stakes in combat are higher for soulslikes vs character action. There are usually less enemies but more deadly. Every enemy is almost a boss in and of itself such as the Shinobi Hunter that FORCES you to get good at Mikiri Counter. You do not see this in GoW/DMC/MGS Revengeance, you do have fodder enemies to boost your confidence.
@@austin21x I'll be honest, I dont really have anything to add to this, which is a shame because you hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways here, I've had a lot of people expound on level design for both games but if I'm being real? This is the most well though out response out of all that I've gotten
Pinball it's an action game while snooker is souls like Game, it actually needs skills. What about metroidvania games, is it Metroid or Castlevania 😁 Btw sekiro is shyte, you will never see a second game or anyone copying it. It was a form soft experiment.
God of war old and new Dmc Black myth wukong Stellar blade Nioh games ,wolong , rise of the ronin Sekiro Blooborme Nier games Darksiders Final fantasy Lies of pi Spiderman games Batman Arkham games Are always games that I redownload to replay
Realtime-Turnbased (soulslikes) is not Action. If it has stat progression (RPGs) is not Action. Action is games where all you have to do is take action, nothing else added. Adventure is games where you have a final goal to achieve. Open World is sandboxes with no inherent progression of any kind. RTS is games where you have to micro-macro manage multiple characters.
I just want my jump button and aerial combos back in the new god of wars games. I really liked the god of war 3's combat. Also I just don't like some soulsborne and soulslite games cause they don't let me jump manually. Not saying every game/soul inspired games(gameplay wise) needs a jump button. Also souls like combat just feels off to me. 21:18 it's almost like it’s a hack n slash. 21:49 is that remnant 2?
I appreciate this video because I feel like a bunch of hack n slash fans are attacking souls likes. Do I think there should be more character action games in the market? Yes, definitely. But it’s currently hack n slash games are niche atm. I don’t mind souls likes, cause every game I’ve played has done something new for the genre with its own spin
For more hack-and-slash or otherwise high action type games, you may find something interesting in these: - No Straight Roads (2020. It's an oddball though, quite short and relatively simple. But solid and cool either way). - Soulstice (2022) - Hi-Fi Rush (2023) - Cookie Cutter (2023. Actually a hand-drawn 2D metroidvania, but there is a high combat focus with different individual weapons) - Genokids (yet to release) - Enenra Daemon Core (yet to release) - Immortal: And the Death that Follows (same story) - Mightreya (once more) - Jamphibian (three guesses) Hope this list proves interesting!
Really good video man! Goated recomended page pull. I liked ur third party esque prespective on this discourse ending in a very glass half full message of just enjoy what u wanna enjoy, both genres are great. I agree wholehartedly ngl i love both types of games and i dont like when ppl attack one of them just because it isnt what they play. The one thing i am sorta confused about is why you started categorising games into souls likes and char actions, cause it felt sorta disjointed from your major point. If it was just to lead up to talking abt how wukong can be both and is rlly good, then i get that but it felt like you were trying to make a point that either i didnt get or was unclear. I just wanted some clarification on what that segement was trying to say :) NO HATE WHATSOEVER literally just curious :))
Really it was kinda a couple of things, for one; the false labeling in general of what counts as a soulslike to me is kinda harmful? At least in terms of giving players the wrong idea. And another big one is to highlight the simmularitys (even if remote) between both genres, showing that they might be less opposed then one might think on a game to game basis. But there's more too, kinda too many points for a single comment actually I know it seems like a non-sequitur for including it, but if you speculate and think critically on these individual cases then it adds to the discussion (I think) if you come up with your own points, which was the real point of including that section imo. Sorry for the sequel to the Bible lmao and glad you enjoyed it!
Sekiro aint no souls game, its an action rpg, there aint no souls you can regain after you die and the checkpoints are there because thats how they do things, its an action rythm rpg
@@hero_of_wasted_time devil may cry 5 Zenless zone zero God of war 1 Devil may cry 1 God of war (2018) Black myth wukong Ultrakill Genokids Sorry for the late response, had a helluva day at work lol
You do lose part of your will but not everything. Kind of like sekiro with the unsee aid, but here you can change this with a fee things you get in the game
Souls borns and souls likes are different im gonna assume you were thinking of soulsborn games cuz you showed elden ring and dark souls but it was kinda confusing.
Souls Like ARE character action games as well. Its more like a sub genre of Action games. Like how is Black Myth Wukong not a character action games? Or Sekiro?
Souls-likes ARE a subgenre of action games, but very different to character action games. Someone in the comments described them as “enemy action games.” The intricate move sets belong to the enemy and bosses while the player character has a really simplistic move set. The player can be thrown around mercilessly while the enemies poise through attacks which will force you to play their game. Character action games like DMC and Bayonetta give the large, intricate move sets to the player. It’s a power fantasy when mastered. Enemies can be juggled in the air and bosses suffer from a barrage of near-endless attacks from all sides. Part of the appeal is seeing just how creative you can be with your combos. Another person in the comments described character action games as similar to playing an instrument in the sense that it rewards creativity and performance whereas souls-likes reward progression over anything. The reason why Sekiro and Wukong aren’t considered character action games is because it plays more like an “enemy action game.” Wukong only has a few combos and you can still sometimes be at the enemies’ mercy. Sekiro deals with the same principles: primarily defensive play and a limited move set. It’s like playing Obi-Won Kenobi, the grandmaster of the most defensive lightsaber style vs Ryu Hayabusa of the Ninja Gaiden series, the equivalent of whoever is the grandmaster of the most aggressive lightsaber style.
Black myth wukong is evolving both genres more than any other developer has done in the recent years, it truly is becoming a new thing and we can't congratulate game science, its director and black myth wukong enough for this. This game is changing history and I can't wait to see what comes next for this game
@@Princemouse9 im not sure if youve heard of ranton but he actually thinks that because black myth isnt a souls like because u dont die in a couple of hits
@@CartRay-gf2tp hmmm... better? I'd argue no, but is it both in some reguard? Yeah I'd say so. The combat does get pretty technical with the stance switching and stance swapping attacks, it does have a moveset progression skill tree, and there's also transformations. But the combat itself with the invidual encounters feels a lot more back and forth, waiting for your moment to attack or heal n' such and idk that just seems a lot more souls to me. It could be both still, but maybe leaning a bit more towards souls on a proverbial "spectrum" imo. Good case tho, hadn't considered nioh till now
A Souls game must have deep RPG mechanics and character building. It must also have bonfires, with enemies that respawn, and heath that refills upon rest. & Interconnected maps with shortcuts. 3 things, thats it. The other criteria you listed as characteristics of souls likes are irrelevant and/or redundant. Wukong is not a Soulslike. Sekiro is not a soulslike. Armored Core is not a soulslike.. etc.
I thought the requirement was: -death mechanics -“dodge dodge hit dodge” combat -managing multiple state bars to counter what the above point did to reduce mechanical depth in combat
@@notproductiveproductions3504 To elaborate, all of the stuff you mentioned is pretty common throughout the action genre. Not unique to souls. Honestly I think my own 3rd criteria (interconnected levels with shortcuts) is perhaps a bit too general as well. Really, as long as the game has 2 things I feel comfortable calling it a soulslike: 1. Deep RPG mechanics with various builds (i.e. STR, INT, DEX, FAI etc.) 2. Rest points (bonfires) that act as checkpoints, respawn all enemies, and refill health upon rest.
@@notproductiveproductions3504 'Souls-lite' IMO is the same criteria but light RPG mechanics instead of deep RPG mechanics. Jedi Fallen Order, for example, would be a souls-lite. And Lies of P would be a Soulslike.
@@zelskzerker2815 No Straight Roads from 2020 and Hi-Fi Rush from 2023 maybe up your alley as well for high-octane combat games with themes of music. NSR is a personal favourite, though do know it's quite short and boss-centric rather than aimed at big enemy groups. It's also much more expansive on the actual themes of music and why people play it than the other two. (or at least, Genokids seems like a game that does not seek to take itself very seriously despite the main team being a rock band). EDIT: There's an old 2D beat-em-up by name of Charlie Murder too. It's about the titular punk rock band fighting off a goofy punk rock horror apocalypse. It's partially RPG in that you can find money and buy clothes (body, hat and gloves), and that the individual band members have their own "spells". I enjoyed it but may be better enjoyed with friends, to see all the characters' abilities come together.
@jurtheorc8117 Hi-Fi Rush is definitely on my soon to play list. I also went through my bookmarks and found that I had already bookmarked Geno Kids a long time ago(like 2020) and forgot to ever follow up. What grabbed me about it was it's aesthetic, specifically in art and tone. I tend to prefer games that visually are less realistic and more cartoony/anime/etc. Have not found many 3D character action games outside of GenoKids and Hi-Fi Rush like that. I DO really like 2D character action games though. Megaman Zero (and most 2D games Inti Creates makes) border on the line of character action and I have been playing those forever so I love them and most things inspired by them. One of my favorite games however is called Monster Tale which honestly has an insane amount of genres to it, but most relevant here is that is a 2D character action game where your pet dragon fights alongisde you and assists mid-combo. Almost like Astral Chain!
God of War gameplay mechanic are souls inspired. light attack R1, heavy attack R2. dodge and lock on mechanic are identical to souls games as well. so much that a souls player would feel right at home first time playing the game. It has other elements as well but you can't really deny that the souls games have definitely left its mark on GOW and Ragnarok. Furthermore, In Ragnarok you can use a shield that absorbs damage instead of the parry shields, and you can even adopt a similar play style to a souls game because of said shield.
This feels more like a regression on the topic rather than a progression. "Soulslikes" are similar to games like "Kingdom Hearts" or Final Fantasy. This is known as the "Action-RPG" Genre. This an important distinction because Devil May Cry and Kingdom Hearts will greatly influence each other as time goes on. The greatest evidence of this is the progression from DMC1-3 to 4 and Kingdom Hearts 1 to 2 and how that series in itself defined Action-RPGs. Kingdom Hearts decided to do something opposite of DMC because in DMC you can freely cancel off basically everything. In Kingdom Hearts they decided to have intentional input delay which would then become a staple in all Action-RPGs like Monster Hunter. Just to give you an idea literally no other game that was out felt or played like Kingdom Hearts because of how it blended Action + RPG into such a potent gameplay mix. So I can hear you asking "But what does RPG even mean in this context?" Customization of your character. Any game that offers true customization on how you can approach the game is an RPG element. So Devil May Cry there is a series of dynamic choices you can make with your weapons and depending on which title we're talking about you can emphasize things like Elemental Weakness but there's no "Equipment" like in an RPG. So for "Another Crabs Treasure" it's in entirely different camp than Sekiro because Sekiro is more in line with Devil May Cry than a Soulslike. That's because Sekiro you do not have the option to customize your experience. You only got "ACT" to resemble Sekiro more specifically because you can customize your character and experience. Elden Ring DLC just added a new item that enables you to parry like Sekiro but they're still completely different because in Sekiro I cannot customize him to be a long ranged bow character. Old God of War was a unique mix of Platforming/Action. The new God of War is exactly as you say it is an "Action-RPG" but why is the RPG added? Because you get a lot more customization on Kratos, his stats, his elemental affinities, and spells he brings in combat. It went from a more DMC-like experience to a Kingdom Hearts-esque one with all its side quests and hidden loot. Now this is where it get messy and interesting what would you call Final Fantasy 16? For a lot of people it's NOT and RPG. It's purely an action game to a lot of people and that's because Elemental Weaknesses aren't a thing and Clive plays only as free as the game let you. That's why Kingdom Hearts 2 and FF16 aren't even seen in the same genre spectrum due to how restrictive and unnecessary it is to explore the games bloated mechanics. You can find many essays about why FF16 failed and it's purely because they cut out too much RPG-Elements in both gameplay and story. Castlevania is an interesting game to bring up anytime we discuss Action Games because we can legitimately cite Castlevania as one of the biggest innovators in the Action-RPG genre before it went full 3D. Castlevania introduced weapon types, spells that cost MP, level ups, stat augmentation, summons, and very interesting boss designs in a dynamic action setting. Zelda and Castlevania were the start of the "2D Action-RPG" experience. Expect Zelda lean more towards an Action game due to the lack of customization. I really want to emphasize a huge component to RPGs is customization which is why most games describe themselves as having "RPG-Elements" without being an "RPG". Like for example you choosing what weapon to use based off it's attack animations and stats is an RPG-Element. If you don't really have a choice over the weapon you need and or instead forced to use them it is more in like to "Action". The most recent Zelda game recently dipped it's toes into the more "Action-RPG" side of the combat and people seemed to really love it. 20:37 You combine both sides and you realize it's just Kingdom Hearts. "limited estus flasks" is literally the same as Sora Item Slots. This is why we define this area as "Action-RPG" because it's a very defined genre unlike "Soulslike" which is a fan made term. I just hate the term "Soulslike" in general. It's an "Action-RPG". Dark Souls didn't invent a new genre.
There's debate on the Arkham style of combat too. I've seen the argument that the feeling of the character automatically gravitating to a particular enemy when pressing an attack button, would distance it from being Character Action into something different. I believe the Shadow of War/Mordor and Mad Max games use similar combat.
I thought the point of Souls games was "Boss can nearly one hit you while you do 1% damage per hit, and if you die, you have to rerun half the level to fight him again". And maybe. "You have to wait for long ass boss animations to finish (preferably by beyblading all over the place) then maybe get one or two hits in, rinse and repeat". Yes. Not a big fan.
If you do 1% you're doing something wrong. What make it long is retrying the boss over and over. I'm fine with it but the fanbase really ruin action games
“You have to wait for the boss to stop attacking and then only get a single hit in,” is essentially the Soulslike version of people who go into a character action game and button-mash, then complain that the game is shallow because it didn’t force them to use combos. Elden Ring has guard countering, parrying, jumping attacks, posture breaking, spells, ranged abilities, consumables, summoning, mounted combat for over-world bosses. There are builds that combine certain buffs and ashes that synergize to dramatically boost your overall damage. In older games, some weapons were just straight up powerful by default, like the Black Knight Sword in the original Dark Souls that could kill the full health Bell Gargoyle in 5-6 swings - with no upgrades or resins. There was also Dark Bead that could be combined with the Red Tearstone Ring to one-shot most bosses at 60 Int. If you’re struggling to kill a boss in a FromSoft game, chances are there’s options available to you that you haven’t experimented with. Because like what I’ve heard people say about character action titles, Souls games shouldn’t need to tell you to use all of the tools and mechanics that they’ve given you. It’s up to you to find your own way to go about tackling the challenge.
And don’t let me forget about the ultimate strategy for taking on bosses in Elden Ring: standing completely still and casting one spell. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-R0qSOy0k0f4.htmlfeature=shared
Character Action debatably doesn't even exist. If that's wild for you to read you're very far behind on modern discussions about these topics. Like "Soulslike" does it really exist? Honestly.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but this is a really bad video, this topic isn't really that complicated, and you make it look extremely, i really think you talked about a subject, that you have little knowledge about.
