There's Too Many Smash Bros Clones 

twitter.com/multiversus/status/1640383551974825984 So looks like Multiversus is shutting down in June this year, but Relaunching in 2024 with extra characters, modes and improvements. I honestly thought it was either going to get shut down completely or just launch into full release without any downtime. Interesting that they are going down the route of refining the game during a down period, but there's no mention of changing the core mechanics of the game which I feel currently is it's biggest issue holding it back. We'll see if Multiversus can survive longer than 2 weeks with more content available, but if I'm being honest I have doubts on this if the issues with the core gameplay aren't addressed. Thoughts?

You gotta talk about how much better melee feels for preserving your momentum out of a run when you jump

Glad you didn't gloss over just how bad the core mechanics feel in Multiversus. I feel like everyone gives them a ton of excuses while ignoring that the game just wasn't fun to play. I was hype for it at launch and I was planning on dropping ultimate to play it, but after a few days I just couldn't get past how bad the game felt to play. It's also ironic that Brawlhala, a game that looks like a flash game, absolutely nails the mechanics that makes platform fighters fun better than a giant like Warner Bros. did.

I’ve never seen a fighting game fan base so unwilling to shift or play another game in their sub genre like smash players. Any game that comes out is an oddity that gets a week of coverage from players and they move on. There is nothing anyone can do about that.

The game feel is definitely something that Multiverses lacks to the point where i feel it's a bigger problem then it's random roster. Not just the flouty jumps but the attacks feel so weak and lack alot of power behind them. In comparison to Smash where hitting a meteor smash feels like you just sent someone to hell. Brawl may have been flouty but aleast the attacks felt great. Multiverses could definitely use some more hitstop. Also i feel the moveset for Smash ironically feels much better for a free to play game then Multiverses, if you learn the basic controls for one character in Smash you can essentially pick up anyone in the roster unlike Multiverses.

Rivals having 15+ % of it's all time peak is huge!! Most games can only dream of those kinda numbers. I think you need to look outside of just this genre when comparing numbers on games. As all games feature massive player drop off from their peak players.

6:02, I somewhat disagree here, I dont think the idea characters having a unique bar or effect is a bad one, but they did make things strangely overcomplicated so its hard to figure out what the stuff does mid fight, unlike another platform fighter, Rivals of Aether that also has each character having a unique "gimmick" but its easy to figure out what each thing does mid fight, at least for me, but in multiversus I felt like I needed to check the move list cause I could not figure out what half the stuff was doing

Okay but Rivals of Aether doesn't fit either "flaw". It was designed to be different, and removing the shield works because grabs were removed too, which allows for faster and more agressive gameplay (some smash players even think it's a step up), and its roster is original

I feel like regarding characters, devs might think that having numerous IP's in your platform fighter is more of a standard than just something that could help it gain awareness. Smash is the pioneer platform fighter series and it's latest installment is the biggest video game crossover, so that might make some devs think that it's necessary. But I don't know that for a fact; I'm just talking out of my ass because who really knows. On another note: Is it sad that I couldn't find a character I liked in Ultimate but immediately did in Nick Brawl/Multiversus?

Figthing games are neat. I love still seeing arcade cabintes at stores in my city for King of Fighters and Tekken and even old people playing at them. The thing with multiversus as a platform fighter is that there too much substance to it outside the novelty factor of it's misfit cast and that lasted for like 2 weeks. Lacks the charm other titles like Brawlhalla have.

Omg YES, I've been trying to articulate why the Multiversus movement just feels awful and that's exactly it. It's terrible and floaty as a platformer. I struggle to understand why big game developers can look at Smash and not see how important the feel of platforming is to it. Great video

Imma keep it real with you Ardrid, awesome video, you have almost all my same thoughts into it, but I disagree on one thing: there are not enough Smash clones/platform fighters on the market, I like how we are going from all trying to be crossovers like smash the same way all street fighter clones needed a Ryu-clone as a relevant character or the face of the game so years later we could have stuff like Skullgirls, as for indie crossovers, well, I think is excellent for them to exist because the great thing about these crossovers is discover new products you don't know about. Now on the games themselves, I think we need more "clones" so we can get more developed and diverse points of view on how to make a good PF, I consider Rivals of Aether to be the most important for being the first one using original characters so they could experiment more with the unexplored nature of platform fighters and good movement by designing it's characters around stage control, creating ice physics and danger zones like fire or puddles for your opponent or improving your own physics is something that not only original characters can bring but someone who understands more of the core of the gameplay than your average dev and wants to see further. I deeply believe Sakurai would have tried their same game designs since Melee if his game wasn't a crossover. Also, I give props to Multiversus for trying so many new things so we learn what doesn't work because Multiversus itself feels as if you slapped 2D assets on a game with the Zelda 2D perspective and somehow added weird gravity mechanics making it so floaty it could be better to just move around the air like nothing, but I know with a hard rework in a complete new mode you could make a proper PF, people complaining about not having a character they want to play clearly do not remember the first time they played Smash, I knew shit about 80% of the roster, but I loved playing as Dedede, Capitan Falcon, and Lucas so I could be interested in their games, heck, my brother loved playing as Ike even tho he absolutely hates RPGs as a whole, so no, not having a dream character isn't the reason why you don't want to play Multiversus.

Pretty good video man! Im surprised that ICONS/ Rushdown Revolt didn't get a mention somewhere in the video cause I was expecting some kind of walk through of how it originally failed of copying too much of the mechanics of its inspiration(hell they just literally copied over 3 characters from melee with very almost the same movesets), and that by giving the game an entirely new overhaul has made it stand out from its contemporaries has made it more fun and interesting while maintaining some of the core appeal's from smash Though I can see it having a hard time getting an audience since its mechanics are incredibly alot more nuanced and combo heavy, its kinda touted as a guilty gear type smash game for that reason, nevertheless its the most fun one I played from most of the Smash Like games I've checked out

I honestly think that you're being a little too hard on Rivals, tbh. While Rivals is heavily inspired by Smash, it does it's own thing.

Your argument about characters is fundamentally flawed. Yes, you absolutely could make a platform fighter with OCs, because it literally has been done before. But to say something like "Smash would still be fun if it was just default Unity assets" ignores the other fundamental parts of presentation. People naturally grow attached to characters, not just how they work in a game. Why have people been complaining about Ganondorf being unfaithful to his games for years in Smash? Why do people want an Indie based platform fighter? Ryu and Ken are literally only in SF3 because people complained the whole cast was new. The MvCI devs argued nobody cared about Magneto because they only cared about his eight way aerial dash for competitive purposes, and the MvC community shut them up real quick. Hell, you shoot your own argument in the foot here because you complain about MvS's OC. You're severely downplaying how important characters are, even original ones. People generally speaking don't want to play a game with basic stick figures or unnamed asset flips. Character is extremely important to all games but fighting games especially.

Im 99% sure that the reason rivals has a parry system is because the creator was only working on the game by himself and he didnt want to animate rolling and throw animations, so it was a choice due to lack of resources, rather than change for the sake of change. Now that aether studios is a thing, he can afford to have more unique animations for characters, as well as the obvious shift from 2D to 3D

7:29 I like the parry system they do it better than any other game without blocking, and im glad they are adding blocking in rivals 2, I just hope they dont make it like smash bros shielding, and more like fighting game blocking, for those wondering the difference is that smash bros shields out of shield options are insanely good and practically a guaranteed punish, while in a fighting game I can attack your block multiple times with multiple things and they could all be safe enough that u cant get a guaranteed punish, although obviously there are still attacks that are punishable on block (and not necessarily important here but fighting games require u to block some attacks crouching and others standing which and depending on the game either the lows are reactable and risky or the overheads are reactable and risky, which makes defence more interesting overall), and most punishes on block are fair and based on a risk reward, I much prefer blocking in traditional fighting games to shielding in smash, I really hope rivals does not use smash's shielding and uses a more traditional block system

First

I think flash party has done it the best so far besides smash.

Shaggy is definitely in there because of the "impressive, you made me use 1% of my power" meme

Dude, I love Multiversus, but you don't know how cathartic it is for you to mention the overly technical move sets of its cast. It's weird. I made an hour long video critiquing MVS on my other channel and you were able to break down my same thoughts way more concisely and with better editing! 😆I should feel bad but its real nice to hear your thoughts come from someone else. Its nice to know you're not the only one thinking something. Had a lot of fun watching this vid and I can't wait to see what you do next.

while it won't stand nowadays, at the beginning, this idea was essentially experimental, yeah, others probably done it before smash, but, it took about six installments to get where it is, while yeah, they should look deeper the concept, let's not forget, people may just look at the outside and go with that

10:40 I disagree greatly its not platform fighters, its only the one whos devs have big company's breathing down their necks like with warner bros and nickelodeon

platform fighters* edit:ok at 2:28 he mentioned the real name lol

I remember when Nick All Star Brawl and Multiversus were released and everyone was referring to them as “Smash Killers” when I never had a doubt in my mind that smash was going away. I’ve played the series for over a decade not just because of its fun roster and mechanics but also its heart. Not just because they finished the roster with my wish character, but because they had won my loyalty well before that point. The game had and still has revolutionary mechanics for any fighting game because its creator knows game design inside and out so that it can be played by both casual and competitive audiences. I just saw NASB and Multiversus as cash grabs trying to muscle in on smash’s territory now that it’s on hiatus. The only thing that could possibly replace Smash Ultimate is another Smash game.

We need to start a smash clone to end all smash clones ONCE AND FOR ALL

Off topic but Rivals of aether is a fun ass platform fighter

I'm loving the video so far while watching but I find even cooler that you thought on using Peshay Studio Set for the background music :)

I wonder how Nick All Star Brawl 2 will fare with this?

1:40 (around) That's decidecly not what Sakurai's intention was. Smash wasn't made to be a fighting game per se, Sakurai has even called it the anti-thesis of fighting games, it's in the video you recommended lol

Funny story, I work at Target and the bargain bin is filled to the brim with unsold copies of Nickelodeon All-Stars.

My one issue issue is I do feel the rivals digs are a lil unfair given the age of the game since it released only a year after smash 4 yet still has some players (heck its player numbers rival multiversus's and that isnt even a year old) and all things considered it did REALLY well for indie game of its size to the point it can afford a 3d sequel. That and Im surprised you didnt talk more about brawlhalla considerin that game is actually pretty successful, really innovates the smash formula with weapsons and such which could have flowed into some of your talkin points about stuff like smash's improve combo mechanics, items, innovations and such and how it is evidence you dont even need pre-made iconic characters to do well. They only really crossed over with stuff ftere already provin themselves.

you fail to mention brawhalla in this vid which currently has more active users than street fighter 6. that game has originality, good online, ip's its not my cup of tea but they found success in the genre and you completely gloss over them

18:45 Facts, smash, rivals and brawlhalla are insanely good games also a bit after that u said it would be its own genre but I disagree, being a subgenre is not bad and I dont see how it would not be a subgenre of fighting game it just does not make sense to me, like if a specific breed of dog gets popular enough it wont be a new animal

It's hard to quantify but Smash just feels enjoyable to play even if you're getting your ass stomped. The divine production value throughout the product that works with itself like a symphony certainly helps too.

you got my like for the jungle you got playing in the background 👌🏾

Platform fighters aren't "Smash clones". Why do people have such a negative stigma against them?

man i'm itching for an actually good smash clone to play on ps/xbox been waiting years for the rivals of aether 2

Amazing well put. Platform fighters are such a cool genre. I've been playing Brawlhalla for a while now, and when Multiversus came out, I kind of felt the need to play it because it was a platform fighter, but I didn't feel like it moved well. Hopefully Rivals 2 and newer platform fighters can be just as great games as Smash.

Thoughts on Rivals 2?

I think rivals of anthers were popular because of the steam workshop making good characters in the game

I agree, so many platform fighters just feel like smash but my characters are in it this time, or they didn't understand why smash was so great. The most successful platform fighters besides smash today are Brawlhalla and ROA. Imo Multiversus while it was very large had a falloff just as large, it's player base could not be retained because it just wasn't a good platform fighter, it's animations were janky, movement felt far too floaty and fast falling can't be helped. Besides IP, the game wasn't actually interesting or engaging for a large player base. Because like you said, it had the wrong idea about why smash was so good. Where as Brawlhalla, a game that is a platform fighter but strays far from smashes formula for their combo system is super successful not just because it's free, but because it feels good in a unique way that has appealed to a large audience. ROA just feels good, it's made by a loving developer who knows exactly what makes smash feel so good and took that idea to the moon and injected it with steroids. The freedom you get from hitfalling and their lenient wave landing system lets you let your ability as a player loose and create what ever combo you can. But with that said it is just smash but with Dan Fornace's characters put inside But besides that, there's so many other platform fighters that are so scared to stray from what's proven and just create smash but here are my characters in it instead. People praised slap city for executing on the genre very well, but imo it's just smash but with their characters inside it. Games like RDR, Brawlout, NASB and Fraymakers (Although it's the first that I know of to have assists, but it just feels like an extra special move than how assists function in traditional team fighters) They still IMO haven't explored more of what platform fighters can be. When looking at games traditional fighters, Games like GGXRD and ST, BBCF, UNICLR all have some form of Cancel in common, But the way that these cancels are used are different within the context of the game they're in, the combo system and philosophy of the game they're in, the numerous other systems inside the game, cause these anime fighters which all have a cancel system to feel completely different. The proof for me in that statement is that many of these characters share moves with each other, with GG and BB having the most in common and each game feeling completely different because of their different systems, execution requirements, combo theory and combo philosophy, character philosophies etc... While UNICLR has one of the most unique mechanics that I've played, Vorpal and CS are such great drivers to the gameplay that force players to play in a specific way that they wouldn't otherwise do if Vorpal didn't exist. Though this same problem does appear in traditional fighters, with many games just being street fighter but with their character put inside. It feels so much more rampant inside the platform fighter space because of the lack of exploration and time that this genre has had. Ideas like this have yet to be explored fully in the platform fighter genre but I hope that it soon will be found in the genre. Platform fighters can be so much more than just stepping in the footprints of what smash has left for us. While our footprints are inside theirs, we can take a detour and find new ground, it might be often shaky or unstable, but every now and then someone will find stable ground and carve a new path.

My personal favourite platform fighter is Rivals of Aether, I prefer the move sets of the characters, especially with there unique easy to understand gimmicks and stage control.

Top music big up my guy

I think the main issue is the lack of depth, Smash Bros is simpler than other fighting games but has a ton of depth, Multiversus's doesn't add any depth.

What song did you use in the ending of the video? It liked the instrumental

I still feel that Multiversus has completely missed an essential fact: people play these games first and foremost for the list of characters available, and that list has to make sense. When we were kids, we loved Smash Bros because it brought together characters from lots of Nintendo games we liked. It was really funny to see Princess Peach fighting Captain Falcon. Even though the characters were very different, they were all WORLD-famous, and clearly linked to Nintendo consoles. In front of Multiversus, me and my buddies didn't understand a thing about the characters. We couldn't understand why they'd made a game that included Superman, the Scooby-Doo characters, and Tom and Jerry. There were even several characters totally unknown where we lived. Who's the woman with the sword? The yellow monster? The big robot? After asking around, I understand that these are "Warner Bros. characters", but frankly, who cares? These characters have absolutely no connection with each other, and don't even belong to the same type of media. Seeing them together was really strange. In Smash Bros Melee, only two characters were unknown to people: Marth and Roy. Even my grandmother knew who Link was, and Pikachu. In Multiversus, half the cast is totally unknown if you're not versed in geek media, and these characters seem to have been thrown together ranndomly. I still think they should have made a game ONLY of Looney Tunes characters. All the Looney Tunes are MUCH better known than most of the Multiversus cast. The characters are different enough to create interesting gameplay subtleties. The universe is very rich, making for lots of fun objects. And it might be possible to add the Scooby Doo characters, since they're also cartoons.

I think if Multiverses had a heavier feel than it would be like a great game instead of an ok awkward game

I couldn't agree more with your comments on the feel of the core gameplay. Starting the open beta Day 1 with a few friends it took me less than 15 minutes to realize that this game wasn't gonna be the next Smash, much less dethrone the king. I don't think I even played past day 1, which is a bloody shame because Multiversus has Rollback. I so wished it was good, just for the solid online it would have had.

I Wish there was more talk about Brawlahalla, as my current main fighting game I think it needs more coverage.

16:49 was a jumpscare for me

Great video

nick all star brawl does essentially have fastfalling. downward airdashes perform the same job, as they send you down very quickly and cancel into anything. only difference is the input and the fact that it costs your airdash

Multiversus was a genuinely good af game ruined by trash monetization and corporate greed

excellent music choice

Good video, but being honestly I got way too many mixed signals from the video that I'm not sure what's the take away? Unless there was suppose to be no takeaway and you just wanted to talk about platform fighters(?)

I love the video and you make great points. But I am not a fan of the title, but I blame the algorithm for that. I think even you agree near the end of the video.

ur like a ThunderPsyker if he actually uploaded more than once every decade I love it

Such a good video

I may not be the biggest fan of Brawlhalla, but I have a great deal of respect for it. It manages to take the foundations of Smash Bros and makes it into its own thing. When I see Brawlhalla, I see a platform fighter. When I see games like Multiversus and Nick All Stars Brawl (which hurts because I genuinely love the game), I kinda see a Smash clone. Brawlhalla manages to be simple to pick up & play while also appealing to causals and competitive players. Rivals of Aether understands its competitive audience and embraces that. So many unique characters and mechanics in the game that gives it a unique identity from Smash Bros. Characters are also not so complex like in Multiversus, but aren't as simple as Smash Bros. characters. Rivals of Aether, like Brawlhalla, knows what works in Smash and builds upon that. On the topic of NASB, I think the game is really solid. The mechanics they have are really good, great roster of new and old Nick characters, great presentation, etc. I believe that rushed development on the behalf of Nickelodeon ruined its potential (also releasing at $50 with barely any content). Too many companies think that copying Smash will net them success which is simply not the case. Overall, this was a great analysis of the platform fighter genre. Keep up the great work!

The biggest issue I have with these "Smash Clones" is really how the movement of these games feels like. Most of them else feel like you're fighting underwater, with super gravity on, stiff. Hence Smash bros is rly the only platform fighting I know, where it made the movement and attacks feel just right and even Sakurai mentioned this in many of his videos how for him, movements, frames, poses, animations etc are the most important factor to make a game feel good. Maybe these game devs should check his videos to improve and fix their games.

Next: There are too many Mario Kart clones

Multiverse looks like a mobile game

Nice video! Smash is the best Smash game :3

Hey you sound like you might wanna listen for the name "Dashwalk Dueling" might be right up your alley - very unbiased solo developer with a direct conflict of interest

11:44 hey thats me

Ive played no game more than smash series, and I can safely say it has nothing to do with the fact that mario is in it.

Would Mario bros ds versus count as a platform fighter

Rivals of aether is a supremely different game than all the others, I don't think you can include it with the others

1:38 2:41 3:21 4:08 6:44 4:45 🤔4:55 4:58 6:17 6:57 8:33 9:06 9:35 10:04 10:34 10:40 11:43 14:14 14:30 14:57 15:20 15:31 17:07 17:28 18:00 18:16 18:51

I like how no one brings up brawlhalla

It's a genre. Like there are multiple FPS franchises.

wait a minute theres a fighting game with octodad in it

a game shouldnt be called a smash clone because it plays like smash. it doesnt need to be like smash. it can be unique on its own. it can maybe even innovate and improve off of smash. i am honestly getting tired of people not respecting a platform fighter because it is different from smash.

What are your thoughts on brawlhalla

There is a ton of Smash clones but they all feel janky. The best feeling Smash game IMO was a mod for Brawl called "Project M". It had 90% of Melee's nuances, while keeping all of brawls actually interesting movement nuances with a ton of crazy characters and insanely aggressive game design. The only Smash clone I enjoyed for longer than 2-3 hours is Rivals of Aether. I still have a small bit of hope that a ROA2 can finally be a REALLY good smash-like game, without Nintendo saying "Competitive is Satan". Up until then, Melee is the only competitive smash game not bankrupt in its design. Ultimate started decently, but Steve completely ruined it, on top of the awful netcode and shitty lobby system. Melee fans made a better online mode than Nintendo ever will. It's sad.

Based analysis from based snowman

Thoughts on Brawlhalla?

Remember me when you get famous. Pls

I feel like the biggest issue of multiversus was technical stuff, the game released incomplete, buggy and with netcode/ online issues. Not sure what to think about all the arguments of this video but even if they are true they pale in comparison by the fact multiversus needed way way way more time in the oven

Honestly couldn't care less about Multiversus unbalanced fundamentals, because I kinda suck at all other fighters competitively which kinda makes me rage. Also Shaggy's always been one of my favorite Cartoon Characters so I was super happy to see him in Multiversus.

i guess you are also pushing the term instead of platform fighters

Challenge accepted 💯

I don't even think items help Smash either. They're too complicated for newcomers, requiring you to jab to collect the item and they're just too cheap and distracting for veterans because they get in the way of play flow.

watchu tryna say about slap city punk

Best is brawl,smash,multivrurses

Most developers doesn't have the resources nor the will to even dare to copy smash bros right, Warner and Nickelodeon for sure have good IPs that can be turned into great games but Smash's focus on fun and attention to detail is too daunting to even begin with. EVERYTHING i can think of in Smash Ultimate is near perfect, the controls, the animation, the combo system, every character (except of course the echo fighters) feels unique, the mechanics are great (even without all the advanced tech of SSBM), myltiplayer, modes, items, the game is highly customizable in multiplayer, single player modes are amazing, ok... I give you this, online can be improved (nothing is perfect i guess) but my point is that the bar is so high that all those copycats kinda get in thr middle of the road. Is not that are entirely bad games (i for example love Brawlhalla) but the pool of the Brawler fighting game sub genre is short and the best alternative is so good that most people will be back to smash one way or another after not much time.

"there are too many smash bros clones" why do you and others not call guilty gear a street fighter clone, why doesn't anyone call tf2 a call of duty clone for being an fps you know these so called "smash clones" are actually unique and unlike smash, rivals of aether characters are actually original and not just used from something else, this is coming from someone who doesn't like multiversus

swag

Brawhalla > all anyway

Looks more like Brawlhalla than Smash

These multiversus takes are absolutely horrendous 😂😂

I personally dislike di I thinkIts so casuals have a chance against people who learn the game Also brawlhalla only has di for same hit attacks otherwise none. Everyone loved multiversus before they started throwing in think it didn't need. Character weights didn't exists how it does now back in the closed beta. Anti combo tools like attack decay, buffs to di, and anti infinite mechanics and like 3 others didn't work because of how dog shit the servers are

Here's an idea if you're going to make a smash game don't put the words "Melee or Brawl" in it.

none of these brawl fighters have anything on brawlhalla

rivals of aether is better than both of those games

Is brawlhalla a joke to you?

I guess Halo is a Doom Clone, huh?

Smash Bros is not original there is already multiple games before its existence that had the whole platform brawling before. Go play Shaq fu tell me that's not a platform brawler.😂