This is the Biggest Issue with Low Mythic+ Pug Keys... 

You know its a Metro video when his face is in the thumbnail

When I came back to the game during s3 of DF as a healer, I hopped right into m+ after leveling. My strategy was to start at +2 with every dungeon, then do +3 across the board, then 4, then 5 etc. I did this for all dungeons all the way up to the 24-25 range where I left my main. It was time consuming obviously especially once I got into the 20+ range. It helped get me into a broad spectrum of pug groups where I slowly learned most of the mechanics in the dungeons. Side bonus was it also helped gear me naturally, where I didn't have to go back and farm crests from a previous bracket. Once I made an alt, I was comfortable enough to jump straight into 18s-20's at a relatively low iLvl b/c of my endeavors on my main. Like I said, it's a significant time investment, but slowly raising the bar really helps drive in some of those crucial/dangerous mechanics.

I think the dungeon journal could be updated to be an actual tool for learning. as it stands, nobody reads that shit. and in m+ it has no info about how much damage anything does at different key levels so it's just useless. it could have gifs and clips of what mechanics look like and a basic, "run away", "soak with the group", "soak", "this gives you a buff", etc.

I think this is an issue that is endemic across the entirety of the m+ scaling spectrum, not just low keys. As someone who's just recently reinstalled wow after a 2 year hiatus, and jumping back in to learn all the dungeons from the ground up with a preset group of 5, this is a constantly recurring theme even into the 27-28 level range. We're continuously having to learn about mechanics that did zero damage and were completely inconsequential just 1-2 key levels ago, to now one-shotting us. I even made the remark to them that playing through bolstering week was the best decision for the learning process because it helped to expedite the scaling and forced us to learn every mechanic of every trash mob before we got to the level where it would suddenly and unforeseeably be hugely problematic. This is one reason I've been opposed to the infinitely scaling dungeon paradigm - things always inevitably devolve into trying to deal with a 6 minute boss fight that is just trying to instakill with the same 3 repeating mechanics. (See: Yazma, Soulbound Goliath, Oakheart/Shade of Xavius, Lady Naz'jar, even Hyrja as far back as Legion, having everyone to swap to Prydaz just to live 1shots at higher key levels). My hope is that the system gets some sort of retooling in TWW because for how good the m+ system is, it's problems having become absolutely glaring even to the mid level player where most of the development consideration is expected to be given.

These people might not even know there is something called mechanics. Just the process of learning how to learn in wow is huge. Took me years and some massive breaks before I got into end game content as a solo/self learner. Even now its massive pain to find out what is the meta in some cases.

I had a tank in weekly 20 rise that was pulling 1 pack at a time. When the tank messed up the battleground boss the mage left. The tank then whispered me after the other dps left, he said that our damage was bad. He was so unaware why our dps was low and then got defensive when i told him 1 pack at a time = low dps.

I had this on a 18 Rezan where two dps would just run around the center of the room, get feared every single time and bring us an army of raptors. Needless to say it was a disband but the guys really didn't know the mechanic they were like "why can't we just go back and forth in the middle?" apparently having never asked themselves what are the purple puddles on the ground or why they were the only ones getting feared

There are people in 20s that still don't know how to kite Rezan a boss that is 3 expansions old at this point. There is no fixing people that do not self reflect on their gameplay and ask where could I improve and do better. Also even if these people were learning by playing, they're obviously not learning and that is 100% on them. It takes a prog mindset to do that, and if you've never blind prog'd anything, you're probably not going to be successful at learning by playing. Learning by playing is a lot of experimentation and if you don't experiment you're not learning.

As someone who pugs about 95% of keys I agree that the main issue is def players not knowing the mechanics of the dungeon. Also really not knowing how to play their class as well. I have started doing +8s this season to doing +20s. I will agree these players are low item level, low score, they get carried and progress from doing a +2..to a 5..to a 9 and upwards to the point where they are doing +15s and above, when it reality their skill level is more on pace of a very low key level. I have been in runs working my way up where they are running the dungeon for the very first time on a +15. But something to keep in mind is, a lot of players don't read guides, don't sim or theory craft, don't farm their BIS. A lot of these players don't even know you can put 3 sockets on your neck piece or enchant their gear. They legit just log in and play the game. Nothing wrong with that for solo content but in group content it will cause a ton of issues. I am not sure what the solution is though. These new follower dungeons could be a step in the right direction for blizzard to teach mechanics to players, possibly expanding the feature to current M+ season dungeons as well.

I actually encountered the same situation yesterday, farming crests on an alt: +16 fall, a lot of mistakes, threat issues, 3 mc's on the tank during blight of galakrond(we 1shot it), and then we arrived to the last boss. First wipe I didnt see what was happening, just 3 people died before the first soak. 2nd wipe the tank is not in his spot to soak it and we die. On the run back I explain that the tank needs to get in the small circle before chromie to soak. They say "ok", and I think we good now. But shortly after I understood what was the problem on the first pull. It seems our mage was also lacking the mechanics knowledge so he just ran out with the big circle, clipping the healer on the way. And the tank still didn't come to soak. That's when I said "gl guys, we can't do this" and left. Both tank and mage had like 1.8k rating and 477'ish ilvl so they are not that "new" to the game. And to your point about blizzard's fault and people not learning. This, I hope, was their learning moment. There wasn't a lot of toxicity in the chat, but people in the group let those guys know that we failed the key due to their mistakes so it might push them to read up the dungeon journal or something to figure out what were they suppose to do on the boss. I think, generally, blizzard does a decent enough job introducing mechanics: the soaks always have the same ground effect and I pretty sure chromie does a voice line like "go the shield" or something like that. And if you get a couple of wipes on the boss I think it's time to learn some mechanics on your own. So I wouldn't put all the blame on blizzard. As far as getting the key range condensed, I feel like that's not gonna help much. I'm pretty certain that if you're wanna go to higher keys then eventually you're gonna have to learn the mechanics. And the higher you go, you'll need to understand more interactions, stops and interrupts. But big portion of the playerbase are just like those 2 in my key: they wanna go to a low dungeon, bumble around with friends and get some gear. They don't want to learn mechanics and are happy just brute forcing their way through, which is fine. When they are faced with wipes they are either gonna learn and read up on stuff, or just go back to the level of difficulty they are comfortable with(which now is like +2-14 or something). With the new system you're suggesting - where every key level is gonna be a significant step up in difficulty - they might in fact start learning real early, or get discouraged real early and just give up on m+. Because it's kinda fine when you can do a +14 but fail a +16, you still feel like you've done something meaningful and got some decent gear. But when you fail a +4 and are forced go back to +3 it might feel like "what am I even doing this for". Also this might be a huge problem for the highish keys. Even know going 1 key level in 25+ is a challenge, but you can still make progress, with optimization and routes, so even if you're not doing world first keys you can progress from 25 to 26 to 27 and further. With the proposed system, where every level is significant step up, most players are gonna face a brick wall pretty early and also be discouraged, because they're unable to make any progress.

In FF14 when you mess up a mechanic you get a debuff called "Vulnerability Up" which increases the damage you take for x minutes, or until the fight ends, this means that even in FF14 LFR level difficulty if you mess up two or three mechanics you can die, in a way it passively tells you 'hey, you did something wrong, figure out what you did wrong, at higher difficulties this will one shot you'. This wouldn't help with the dragon skip but a half wipe is also a 'hey, figure out what you did wrong'. I agree about the squish also, keys below 7 are legit too easy to even see half the mechanics from most mobs or bosses.

Currently im on a 3 day old lvl 70, few crafted items and flight stone box gear you can buy at 441 ilvl. The character is ready to do +9 to 11s at 448 ilvl without getting hard carried. Yet to upgrade most of my current gear the game wants me to farm +2 to 5 keys. It makes no sense.

i had a key like this the other day while gearing my new VDH for fun. healer didnt know the mechanic, and a couple dps died from not putting the rock on chromie to do the soak mechanic. I just gave them a rundown of all the 3 mechanics and said "in" at the burn phase and we did it. +2 the key even after wiping twice. I agree the game doesn't teach them how to do mechanics or give feedback when the do mechanics wrong. But, having the patience help them in the lower keys tends result in them learning the mechanics rather quickly.

there should be a mini video guide IN GAME that explain the boss and frankly same for the packs like a 'm+' school that explain in 1-2minutes everything you need to know the dungeon guide is way too pathetic

Can only imagine any “fix” for this issue is going to be extremely difficult to implement. Because even groups that know the mechs are going to mess up/run into unfortunate situations so how do you differentiate between the two situations? I think until/if ever this is addressed, we as the community need to keep promoting cooler heads and do like the tank towards the end here and try to explain it to folks who don’t know in low keys. Isn’t convenient and may not be our “job” as players, but a quick two line explanation can save future groups and make the run smoother.

So how other MMO games handle this - in both there isn't anything close to WoW M+ in terms of dungeon complexity but they at least give you some feedback about failiing the mechanics. In Elder Scrolls Online if you die to a boss mechanic in a dungeon, your death log will actually give you a written tip on how to handle the mechanic which killed you. In Final Fantasy XIV if you fail a boss mechanic, you are getting damage taken increase debuff for ~30 seconds, which stacks. So you actually have a visual notification when you fail something, and if you just ignore the mechanics too much, you will die no matter your gear. Also FF14 allows you to practice the dungeons with AI companions (feature implemented also for Dragonflight dungeons in latest patch), where NPC-s tend to explain the mechanics via dialogue, or you can just try mimic them doing the mechanics - if you die in the AI assisted dungeon, it's a wipe, the bots will not carry you or even res - if you want to clear the fight, you have to be alive for the whole duration of it.

It feels somehow worse at the moment as, at least on EU servers, there's an influx of completely new players (would be interested to know the reason for that!) and the game just straight up isn't teaching them anything at all. Not dungeons, not rotations, not interrupts, not affixes. You're totally right that they can probably get hard carried, other than the DOTI dungeons with personal responsibility mechanics, til about the mid-teens. Maybe the last boss in TOTT too. I think it's a bit of a stretch to expect a completely new, often solo, player to know where they are supposed to get all this information. I've started just flat asking on my alts if people don't know the dungeon when we start.

Honestly, I took a break from season 2 so the DAWN dungeon mechanics were the most difficult to get the hang of.

I think another issue is the random key upgrade. You can easily push 2k+ rating avoiding or not even getting the key to run certain dungeons. Then you get individuals getting to 15+ only have ran the dungeon once or not at all

I think issue is there is no safe way to practice the dungeon. M0, even at the start of an expansion, patch, is way too easy, to the point where you ignore everything and burn through it. By the time you get to the point where you are punished for mistakes, you might not know what is killing you. Or you might know what to do but because things die so quickly, but you are not used to how to deal with it because you don't get to practice. I'm not talking about things like standing in a swirly. I'd wager 9/10 times people do that by accident, either too tunnel visioned and not notice it, or they get too greedy and don't move in time, or want to use movement skill but it's on cooldown or something like that. It's safe to say most people can see swirly=bad, even if they don't always do a good job at avoiding it (that's me). However, some things are just not clear at a glance and until you get 1-shot it, you might think that something was unavoidable, or you had someone who interrupted a key cast which you didn't know existed until you died to it. Like that mage didn't know they had to stand in that bubble. Maybe other times they did it, nobody told them and things went fine, so there was no failure for it and as such they just didn't think anything of it. This might have been the first time they were punished for it but didn't know what happened, because every other time, there was no problems so they don't know what went wrong this time. I don't know what a good solution to it is other than making M0 way more punishing so that people get to learn without being under time pressure.

Mage can blink out of the necrofrost but it’s required to have icy floes talented not double blink because the double blink talent removes the part of the ability that allows you to break the cc.

There are people who can't learn from videos and text (me included was an issue in school :) ), I learn by doing, however it takes me one time to fail and learn from it, which unfortunately seems to not be very common in the wider population. I only go to 18's personally just for vault so not really that high of a key level, but still somewhere people will get punished for messing these things up. I've healed, tanked, and dps'd at this key level over the past 3 seasons (though tanking gives me anxiety that i want to get over) and i've seen a ton of funny stuff. When a dungeon becomes a shitshow i don't even get mad i just laugh my ass off.

this is something that has bothered me since the end of bfa: back then a jump from a 15 to a 16 was high. 16s started to get spicy and you could see the filter started from there. you would encounter more experienced players and quality in general improved. the thing today tho, is PORTALS ! everyone needs to get portals today ! for blizzard. it was shadowlands who introduced the portal system and i found it rewarding. it was for us who really wanted to put the effort and climb up the hill of m+. Today, portals need to be even for the best friends grandma and the neighbors. even for the toddler cousin, so the filter must have been lowered. average player needed to be allowed to run 20s which brought havoc to the world: fresh alt, get some blues and good to go, bam! first +20 key timed, carried by crazy dhs, and ret paladins, never had the time to learn mechanics. to me, at least, we should go back to those days in order to fix this. the fact that they want to give loot and portals to everyone is what's causing this. having quick access to the rewards before going through the actual road to ninja. Not to mention adding old dungeons to the rotation xD !!! more stuff to learn, hidden mechanics that only my ancestors know.... and since its loot what's driving the masses who don't care about challenge, get back to max loot t 16 so they can finish their business and no one need to suffer. this way also they can make dungeons harder as you mentioned :P

They attracted a casual community with an endgame for tryharders so when the two side encounter that's what happen. I blame blizzard for not knowing what there doing and for who

I think games like Eden ring and other boss fighters are so different (perhaps slightly better) and the skill levels are more understood because at all points of the game YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO TAKE ANY DAMAGE. You can but like all damage you take should be avoided. WOW is the opposite of that. Blizzard has to give you damage to check the healer's skill and ultimately there is very little indication what avoidable most of the time verse what can be facechecked. The healer is a crutch in most cases until the gear can no longer support mistakes.

The biggest issue is gear. It's a blessing and a curse to be able to upgrade it. On 1 hand it's great because you can catch up and gear alts, but the big problem esp. in low keys is people, like you said can brute force the key by just simply out gearing it. This is the first season i've pushed into 20s and i've learned a lot along the way. IMO people shouldn't push their own keys when they are new. All that does is encourages folks to only take people who will just carry them, they learn nothing. you can push your key from a 2 to a 16 EASILY if you have a carry or even moderately good player join your key, and in doing so get the false sense of 'that went well I can def do 16s". You want to actually get better? Only join keys and take the gamble that it goes to shit and work your way up on your own. You will have to do more keys to get invited to more etc, but this game is all about 'trigger time' just go and do it A LOT.

This is, imo, the single biggest problem with World of Warcraft as a whole. The game makes virtually no effort to teach players how to play it. Even the lore is best consumed externally. Because the game fails to adequately teach players its systems and how to succeed, it falls to players to pick up the slack, and most people are rightfully unwilling to spend their time teaching people every single time they want to PuG something. This is what leads to the culture of gatekeeping, hostility and exclusion that we find ourselves in. I straight up dont understand how new players get into this game, or why they'd want to stay. I don't think Blizzard is taking this problem seriously enough, and I really hope they do. I want this game to grow and welcome new players, I want them to have fun. Dragonflight is a good step in the right direction, but there needs to be more active effort into this. If 2-3 devs can whip up season 4 from scraps I have no doubt the devs could do great work on this if given the opportunity.

I agree that WoW desperately lacks tools to help new/inexperienced players get a better understanding of dungeons (and raids) and how to approach them. I find it difficult to come up with a system to punish/reward players in order to teach them the mechanics, but a less gameplay intrusive method could be something akin to giving the adventure journal a much more crucial role and making sure that players are notified by ingame messages/quests that they should look there. An example of this could be adding in much more comprehensive ways to examine the dungeon within the journal itself. When choosing a specific dungeon, there would be a short rundown like there is now, but also a tab with something like the MDT map of the dungeon but obviously simplified to not be completely overwhelming with information. Then you could click on a boss or mob-group, and much like now it would list the names of mechanics/highlight the important ones, but allow you to click on specific abilities and have a small side-window open with a simple animation/video of what that mechanic looks like and a hint on how to deal with it. I suppose you can think of it like the ability previews in games like LoL fx. Having visual aid i find is usually incredibly helpful in WoW especially. Obviously there will always be people that are unwilling to learn, regardless of how helpful of a system is implemented, but something like this, that allows the people who want to improve easier and less "immersion-breaking" access to the information needed to succeed in their runs would be really nice imo. Having something like a small video/animation to look at for a specific mechanic while running back after a wipe, especially if it could be linked in chat for people to open easily, could probably help avoid having situations like in this video as often

Why not use something like follower dungeons as a tool to help players learn the mechanics as they go through the dungeon they can opt in to have an Npc explain the mechanics and shout when certain mechanics are happening on fights.

I haven’t played any M+ since BoA and I was complete garbage at that, but I agree with what everyone is saying. A difficulty spike that gives the gentle (but firm) slap to the face that “oh, this will kill me” sooner than later. Dark Souls is a perfect example of how to do the difficulty with punishment. The hardest part is, as you said, community culture can be difficult. The flaming from the community is one of my biggest fears in ever trying to go back to M+ WoW.

I have been thinking about this for a long time and I think I've come up with a solution. The current key scaling is very much on an exponential scale. The only way is to scale it linearly and to make M0 twice as hard and go from there. At the moment M0 is hardly more difficult than a heroic. The other issue is that what happens is people just invite high iLvl players who trivialise the content and essentially carry all the learning players. And they think they're doing them a favour but they are actively harming their growth and learning phase

Good video Valid points metro .. A player could spend all day learning the dungeons and mechanics and then when get in and play make a mistake or 2 entirely not their fault and get reprimanded by anyone. It's not a good feeling but every1 expects it to be an easy complete. I think this is why people actually don't do thier homework because your can still get trolled if it's goes south. Why take the time when you can wing it and hope for the same results. I always used to watch run thru of dungeons when playing and I'd still make mistakes only to get flamed. No one has the patience and with a timer in mind it will always be the same. I remember in wotlk when we would run none myhics and people would explain the bosses and mechanics cause they had the time too in the dungeon. Now.. And I do agree you should and are expected to know it before. Some people can't pick up stuff as quick as others aswell every1 plays a different way. I just think the true problem is lack of patience caused by the stakes of a timer because in time out of time is the be all and end all to m+

I don't think it's entirely on the game to teach its players how to play (specifically when it comes to skip strats and how exactly to counter certain mechanics) however they do need to make some sort of tool to practice certain bosses and their mechanics (something like a training grounds where you can pick a boss fight from a dungeon/raid this season to practice against and you could scale the difficulty up based on your progress in raid/m+ score) one of the bigger issues for blizz to "naturally" teach the game to new players is that we have 8 different dungeons with 3-5 different bosses per dungeon per season and 8-10 raid bosses depending on tiers and sure it's easier to learn a raid because it's always semi linear and there's no added timer pressure (sure theres enrage timers on a lot of bosses but regardless of if you took 4 hours or 4 days to finish the raid that week you're getting the same chance of loot and get the same credit as anyone else). Add on the fact that most players who do keys aren't pushing the dungeon they're pushing the key level (most aren't playing the same dungeon back to back just on higher difficulties to specifically improve in that dungeon they play the highest key they can get into as long as it's also a score upgrade) leaving enough time between each run of any specific dungeon for any old mistakes to be forgotten and makes it less efficient to try and figure out how to beat the mechanics :/

Quazii has a whole series (by dungeon) on how each mechanic works. I dont go into an M+ without watching them, but still have difficulty when doing it. I am a veteran player (since BC) and didnt know what an interrupt was until Dragonflight! I totally agree that the Wow team needs to explain the mechanics in some training scenario or something. The number of keyboard keys for combat is bloated as well. I have actually seen a 285 ilvl trying to get into M+ keys. There is no reason people cant get 415 from the outside world and make the starting M+ limited to that. Lots wrong with the system they could fix alright.

It’s the same, if not worse in ff14 - the game continually adds skills as you level up - and worse, has different rotations for different milestone levels (60, 70, 80, etc) and never teaches you a rotation at any point. Plus 99% of the content is face roll that once players start hitting savage raids, they hit a massive wall, because they have to learn mechanics and know their rotation in order to pump out the dps

I was playing my fury war alt ( i normally tank on pally) a 14 tide, i had to pilot the tank through the second boss ( he wasnt moving at all) and i had to teach half the group ozumat.... we didn't time, but i stayed and tried to teach. I honestly didn't think 14s were not timable. I personally ensure i am up to speed before the season starts and send my friends a playlist of "homework" before the season. Most dont watch and i have to explain the mechs in disc anyway. People just dont take the 40 mins or so per season to watch a vid 5 mins each to see mechs.

I dont know why the dragon skip is a thing in pugs, the risk of miscomm or messing it up isn't worth the time gain. Just kill it lol.

They essentially added Raider IO to the game, so why not incorperate DBM or Bigwigs? People would likely complain that they are making the game too easy then, telling you what you need to do at all times, but most people do have these addons installed, and the ones that don`t are likely the ones that are not learning.

First scenario literally happend in a key for me this morning. Tank went thru portal out of combat and the rest of us died, half them released before RP finished so were all spread out. Best part was warlock who didnt want to gate skip past the dragon. Fun times.

To make these mechanics simple enough that these types of people would (maybe) understand the fights would end up way too easy.

whats the max key cleared as of this expansion now?

2 thoughts 1. Make it so failing mechanics doesn’t JUST do damage, debuff then to do less damage or something 2. Failing the mechanic should have visual cues or something in game at lower keys. To teach.

These low keys are terrible right now. Did a 15 eb on one of my alts and nobody kicked, nobody cc’d, nobody even tried to stop casts. And the council boss was the end. I couldnt take it anymore

This is my example as a heals There’s are spells in the trash for the 2nd boss of falls in a 15 you don’t even know there was a spell but that same spell in a 16 and it kills all ur dps if it’s not interrupted . This also happens in the 2 group of trash in rise . Blizzard expects you to learn as you fail . That works in games like Dark souls but in a mmo nah . I recently found a fixed group to do m+ . When I do a 19 with them it feels like a 14 in difficulty and if a do a 14 with pugs I just want to quit . And I’ve been pugging since Bfa it shows what a masochistic I am

did today +9 Fall 4-5 wipes and disband and last boss tank was clueless what do. we all telling him how do it but he just couldn't figure it out. again i think blizzard fault for allowing players skip to higher keys without going thru each level 2 3 4 5 6 and up per dungeon. its a pug life thats all.

I honestly don't know of a solution besides for just being better people. I did some low keys recently and wiped a bunch in a fall for the same reason of a couple people just not knowing what to do. So I gave up on getting my 12 wyrm crests and just asked "ok what don't you understand about the fight and how can i help you understand what to do?" spent the time to teach the players that didn't know how to get past the 5th wipe to the same boss that depleted an 11, and got out of there and logged off the game lol. At some point it's about self- sanity to get yourself out of the key and hope that the person retains what you taught them vs expecting everybody to know what you know. People that play this game are assholes and it's annoying. You can be 3.5k and not be a dick, its not difficult but it is a choice.

it has been so long since i watched these low key videos. at this point blizzard should make dungeons into straight corridor with no skip and no invis mechanic. so you kill everything on your way then kill the bosses each room . (i am joking) . i dont know if i should cry or laugh after seeing these low keys but yeah my favorite kind of video series , low keys. thank you for sharing with us.

I dont think its a game problem since u can press shift+j and read all the mechanics, you can search videos, you can ask in chat etc etc... People just want to smash their head against their keyboard, see some numbers go up and enjoy the dopamine leves rising... maybe wow is the wrong game for that.

I think there is an element for how far into the season you are as well. Beginning of the season everyone is willing to work together and learn the mechanics. But the further and further you get into the season the more geared more frequent players get there less they are willing to work together with others and help. I have an Alt of every class. My main i can push 20s on but everyone else is in the 15-16 range. In the 2-14 range is very very common to have geared players apply to run the key. So i can have a 351 fury warrior be carried by 470+ players in a 5 and sometimes not even SEE all they mechanics of a boss.

The straight up cruelty, wow! Granted the players need to research before doing higher than a +7 IMHO. Once you know all the mechs for that dungeon, work on perfecting your rotation. For me whether I tank or DPS, I tend to work the same dungeon for a full week, perhaps get 10 to 15+ runs in way before I start pushing much higher key ranges over a +7.

The keys are so inflated a 25+ key should be a 10, and they should be hard it’s meant to be challenging learning mechanics is part of it, but when you first have to start learning mechanics at +15 there’s huge scaling issues.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Sometimes people just don't care about improving and there's no amount of guides or help or videos you can give them that will change that.

Think the real issue, is how keys are a joke till 20, and 20 is the required for weeklies. In legion when it was a 10, keys where hard. because you had only a handful of levels to work with. But me doing my weekly 18s on my 450 alts for fun, would stomp a plus 3. Like you can get free 447 crafted gear, and start doing 14s for upgrades. WHAT IS THE POINT of the first 13 levels?

doesnt league have a system where you can kind of send messages to players after a match? like "good lead" or "well played" or something like that? i mean its just positive stuff...but if that is tracked you could "see the absent of positive feedback" and maybe that could be a hint to learn your stuff?

I think the main issue is a lot of mechanics scale by just simply doing more damage to players, but the scaling changes when people are over geared. The best change they could make is to tie mechanics to doing an action correctly instead of "Just heal through it".

"Are you blind?" "I'm gay" It means yes, yes he is because love is blind. 😘 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

with the whole frontal on the 1st boss of NL, it took me longer than id like to admit to realize i can step out of it as a tank. but to be perfectly fair, theres trash mobs that have the exact same mechanic as that boss where they do a huge frontal, but those mobs follow you and you have to tank that frontal. its just a huge consistency issue within the same dungeon

The mage profile you went over has problems with the 3 dungeons that stand out the most this season: 2x DOTI and Throne. Both are overtuned and just have those one too many abilities or quick succession of those. DOTI Rise until week 12 of this season was particularly terribly tuned.

Imo. You can't blame Blizzard for people beating a dungeon without knowing mechanics (at low levels). Sure that works when the dungeons is on a low level key and at least 1 people know how to do things but when the key is gettin bigger the things that never hurt will start to. For example the druid tank sure he beat the dungeon in a low level key but he never questioned himself or other if he need to do something different this time. I mean, apart from obvious guides from different websites, there is literally a description of every boss skill in the Adventure guide but even asking for help instead of being a "signal of people trying to learn", it becomes a reason to mock the player and leave the key. We as a comunity have a problem of ego, if you ask for help 3/5 will call you noob. Specially on an important role like Healer/Tank If you said you didn't know some dungeons mechanic some people preffer just to leave and wait 10 minutes in q instead of explain something for 5 minutes.

But brother i normally play 20-23s and even in 20s you see people who dont know what they are doing its kind of crazy.

i completely disagree with something that ive seen a few times here in the comments and many times on forums and other discussions etc, and that is that you should be required to put time looking up dungeons etc outside of the game that is an expectation you have to right to set for another person if you respect them as a person, at least in my opinion .the game should be teaching you better and since its currently not doing that, you go in and learn by making mistakes.... the only thing is that pugging is the problem, especially when youre on the more casual side finding players and communities like you that might also provide some tipps is the best way but expecting someone to put hours into learning all the different dungeons before going into keys is absurd because a lot of wow players, especially in the lower key ranges, have a job, family, etc and not much time to play. so, if you have lets say 1 or 2 hours a day to dedicate to the game, do you expect that person to look up guides on youtube or wowhead or whatever? no, absolutely not and its also not necessary at all. now i personally have had a lot of time for wow in the recent years, im currently at 3.4k score on my main and have a bunch of other alts above or around 3k. in season 2 of dragonflight, i was for the most time in the top 200 prot paladins worldwide and i didnt look up routes or anything online, i went into the keys and did them over and over again until i figured stuff out for myself. because even i, with a lot of free time available prefer to play the game instead of looking at websites about the game and frankly i see what is in the video as mostly a community problem, its an mmo. the community is the driving force behind it and if as we can see in this case the group laughs at people and insults them instead of trying to explain the mechanics thats the failure of the community, ive succeeded in many lower runs on alts or with people from discord who were new to the game after just explaining it like a normal human would

As much as we would want that to happen. I don't think blizz will allow it. It's not profitable for them if casuals has to learn a little to get the rewards. Also blizzard does try to provide help. They have the in game guide. But the old saying goes. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it.

I haven't read all the comments so I may be repeating others here, but I think the issue is complex. Blizzard seemed to decide to make end game content more accessible this season by making the timers super lax so it's very easy to 3 chest a low key brute forcing through mechanics and not learning them. This guy in a 14 fall -- IDK who's key it was but he easily could have gotten that key without stepping foot in the dungeon on a lower level. 3 chest a 2, 5, 8, 11, and your 5th key of the season is a 14 and you have no idea what you're doing. Having some slightly higher geared players farming for crests because of the upgrade system in place (you're at wyrm level, but still need drakes to upgrade gear, etc.) makes brute forcing through even easier. In my case, when I was learning the dungeons, I always lowered my key or joined others at a lower level until I knew the mechanics and was confident going higher, but blizzard doesn't force you to do that, and there's no system in place to even highly encourage you to do that. When I first started m+ in SL, I remember being nervous going higher than like a 5, and the group I was with said "blizzard gives you a key it thinks you're qualified for" but that is not strictly true, really -- and it's even less so now. I don't know what the answer is. Making lower keys harder to succeed without properly executing mechanics is one way for sure, but I have a hard time believing Blizzard would do that with their current ethos of making end game content more accessible (at least that's what it seems like!) but maybe being unable to 2 and 3 chest keys could be an answer? You could keep extra rewards in for doing it fast (io score, extra gear drops?, extra upgrade currency, etc.) but not actually upgrade the key 3 levels higher at the same time. But that also punishes players who have the skill to jump up those levels and not need to do each dungeon at each key level to learn. I do like what kop suggests in giving some kind of direct feedback in game as to what you did wrong but... I doubt that's going to happen, especially when Blizzard likes to point you to wowhead everytime you open a support ticket lol. I'm a pretty average player. I've definitely gotten better since I first started in SL, but I ran close to 100 keys this season before I even stepped foot in a 20. (In SL the highest I timed was a 17 for reference, and my average was probably 13-15 tbh) But blizzard didn't force me to do that, and I might have been a bit too cautious about it, but I wanted to make sure I could contribute to the team's success and not drag the team down. I don't know what kind of mechanism could be put into place (and that Blizzard would actually do!) to encourage that perspective in the game though.

1:55 yes that mage certainly can get out of it, freaking BLINK man!!!

I would add a performance bonus to mythic+. For every mech you do right by dodge , or stunning , or rupting it adds to the bonus. At the end of the key you get some extra gold based on how well you did. Nothing major , but enough to cover repair and mat costs atleast.

It's actually been interesting while pushing keys on my alts. Surprisingly, even in the 18-23 range people do not know all the mechanics, pull random trash and do not have things like invis/flask. Maybe condensing the key levels so people arent getting an easy +3 on every sub 17 key then getting into 20s right after. Ok lmao I didnt realize you said this at the end of the video, typed this halfway through lol.

Would be kinda nice to have the mentor system a bit more expanded. Allow them to 'join' the key (up to x level) and just be a spectator. Help explain mechanics etc, then earn a small reward based on time spent and so on.

Its a complex problem to solve. Some people want to learn the mechanics while doing the key, some watch guides before doing keys, some don’t even want to learn them at all. If you ask me people should know mechanics even if its m0 you should just know the mechanics in general. I watch guides of every dungeon at least 3 times in the season start before entering the key. But some would call that elitism or whatever, they prefer griefing keys like in this video cuz thats a good way to learn i guess lol

I just returned to the game about 2 1/2 weeks ago. I have been doing m+ on and off for years. Anything under 20 feels too easy. I'm an ok player. By no means good. I can play my class well enough as a DPS and do enoughdamage. But I have a lot of room for improvement when it comes to class utility. My guild has a class where we learn skills for m+ and raid. These are skills like communication and awareness. These are basic life skills everyone needs in game and IRL. It has helped me be a better player. I can easily do 16 to 18s but feel that blizzard has just took the 15s from a few years ago and made them easy and placed 20's as the new 15s.

Maybe updating the dungeon manual, what are your guys thoughts?

A mage in fact can easily clear necrofrost himself, using either a blink, or a dragonsbreath

Yeah, it's a different conversation in chat when a group member(s) messes up on a Dungeon boss mechanic compared to when a group member(s) simply does NOT know the mechanic at all. Even knowing the mechanics, mistakes can be made and should be tolerated to some extent.

So as someone who ran +10s a lot, I logged every m+ I did. Anytime there was a wipe I would make a note to view the log after and figure out what went wrong. I guess the only way you can solve this is force everyone to log *everything* or get blizzard to pop up a failure summary with how you died, to what mechanics, and what you should have done.

I dont share your point, i mean, its clear that people what is not doing mechanics are getting rewarding but the game have more than enough tools in order to succed, there is the adventure guide in game, most dungeons have normal and heroic difficult that have their own reduced mechanics, the game is made to be social so people can ask to a partner for tips (i also do it quite often if i see people struggling or if they ask to me) and there are guides from the community (wowhead, icyveins, forums, youtube, etc), i know my last point is not blizzard content but there is plenty of tools in game actually and we are not playing some sort of dark souls, with a couple of runs most mechanics are intuitive and for those who arent you can go back to any what i mentioned before, whoever is not catching on this is probably too lazy to play correctly, not even in this game, just every single game that comes in their hands and in fact there is nothing what blizzard can do againts an actitude issue

people think damage overcomes mechanics, or they think someone will carry them

When i do lower level keys, say under 16, i usually just assume someone doesnt know tthe dungeon. I regularly ask at the start, and expect there are going to be some problems.

I think the m+ community would be better off if blizzard introduced some 1 shot mechanics for failing a mechanic. Something drastic very early on I think would weed out the players who are like "it's just an 8 bro". I remember when I first started m+ back in bfa I would actually read dungeon journal before each boss, if the team was fine with it ( i was tank ) but now as years have went on I have learned the best way to learn m+ is to watch title range players play the game and ask questions in their chat. I'm a bit split on who should have the responsibility of teaching noobs, the way it is currently it kind of helps the community of m+ streamers have viewers come ask them questions but if blizzard took on the responsibility that may lower viewer count numbers for said streamers, ultimately I think blizzard should bear the responsibility since theyre making the video game. But, had it not been the way it is now I would have not known of all the different types of people that are out there gaming and approach dungeons differently.

I think the 1-10 range of keys fails to prepare players because you almost don't need to have ANY knowledge of the mechanics and will still progress. The scaling is poorly done.

I'm actually not convinced that this is a problem. One of the central benefits of having scaling difficulty content like m+ or raid difficulties is that people can get introduced to the content without being massively penalized by not knowing everything at the start. You can't have interesting and varying mechanics and simultaneously having everyone learn how all of it works within couple runs of the dungeon.

Didn’t this get implemented in follower dungeons? I thought it did but I haven’t tried.

12:00 you can actually easily 3 chest 20's as 4 ppl sadly now.

I tried doing a 12 AD earlier this week on my warlock. Went straight to Rezan as normal. We did kill the little dinos before jumping down. Doing rezan, incorps spawn, I realize that I don't have banish, after that boss, I tell the pug that I'm zoning out to get banish. Ask the others in the group, priest has dominate mind, shaman has hex, so we should be good, right? how about nope - neither of them casted a single cc. We clear the trash to the priestess boss, pull her, druid tank tanks her in narnia, nowhere near the platform, the add spawns, eats blood puddle, I'm the only one on the add, the only one CCing incorps. I ran away, back down the steps, "bubble hearthed" mid fight, left the group.

Mythic 0 should literally be a tutorial. Make it a follower dungeon . Stop before each encounter and give a short video or slide show that shows and explains each encounter. THAT is the answer. Dont make the keys harder. Thats not a good solution.

They changed iridikron that you can only have 3 people soak at the back and tank at the front. in terms of people learning the fight. Honestly I dont really have a solution for it. The problem is 1. People get carried all the time in low key and alot of people dont learn 2. Alot of mechanics are just too forgiving at those level that when you hit levels that mechanics matter people just dont know unless you research it

The oh so good holy priest missed the life grip

Love the vids man keep it up such a great attitude and fun videos , no bs fake personality

Actually incredible how oblivious the dh / mage are lol

So I think the Tank and priest are in the wrong for slapping down some toxicity instead of explaining what they did wrong. While i agree its unfair how easy it is to upgrade ur key tho from like a +2 to a +15 and not really have to learn a thing that isnt from the keys itself tho more of these people are probably carried through the low keys by someone who is much more geared making the key 20X easier. Would be kind of unfair to make a +2 easy then all the sudden this player goes into a +3 and just dies 200 times that would just be unfun. Imo i think the best we can do is to just help explain to players who may have had help getting there key so high and there rating basically boosted. Its funny tho how alot of people say like "Oh wows dying its so hard to find groups for high keys and all" but then are the same people who treat a player trying to learn or grind out keys to do higher ones and would rather be toxic and make them feel bad and quit rather then help them so we have more players for M+ but nope lets just make everyone feel bad cause they didnt know something they never done before....that is best logic right there. Another thing that could be happening is 14s and 15s are around the keys u can time and get ur ksm mount which with some people in wow is something that person wants and then will just drop doing keys in general afterwards. All in all the best way to fix it is stop with the toxicity when someone goofs explain to them the mistake and move on. there is no sense in ruining someone elses time spewing bullcrap everywhere calling someone dumb or bad in a video game they dont play 24/7 like you may. The System is fine the player base is what will kill it.

I think low keys are hard enough at the start of the season. But now you have so many people gearing alts or grinding crests you could get to 2k without knowing most mechanics.

The difficulty is a bell curve it’s like super easy then it Becomes hard then it becomes impossible

I do love the funny low key videos but I don't think we can blame Blizzard for people failing mechanics in low keys. Low keys are meant to be easy so people can learn from these mistakes. You should by +14 know the mechanics but people are too impatient and want to get into the highest keys they can for better gear etc. I get the idea for your fix but if you make low keys difficult then you make mid keys really difficult, then you make higher keys basically impossible. People who progressed to +28 - +30 range are now only able to do +22s and it will just go pear shaped from there. Maybe I am wrong though, who knows.

A possible way to make the community learn the dungeons would is to like you said squish them, or would be to do x amount of dungeons at a certain lv to be able to queue for the next tier, as in once you hit lv 7, 14, your key cannot deplete but you have to do a random set of the dungeons on there to then unlock the next affix, so youd have to 3 dungeons at 7 to progress but it would choose them like a quest. Also there its the option to remove the 3 chest since youll be gated more and force people to play them at a lower level then the current where you bulldozer over the lower lvs not learning the fights till it gets to the point of pass or fail with no learning curve.

I agree the game doesn't teach them much and it could be much better at it. Unfortunately from what I've seen a lot of the lower skilled players don't care to improve. It's not because of lack of time or anything else, they are content to be awful. A lot simply cannot get any better. I know some and see it too much. Years of playing at trash tier and not from lack of trying to help. They are forever stuck overpowering keys with their health which is fine if they have fun. For the ones that do I think the game requires so much time already that it's hard to make time to even try to teach someone. I have my own long list of things I want do to every week. Why potentially die with these guys for 2 hours every key when I can't even get that done? That may be the true problem. As for the difficulty low keys are too easy for what they are and the reward. Making the keys get harder faster would probably help. A few babies would cry about it but that's a price I'm willing to pay.

Always assume they are boosted, if they dont know the mechanic after multiple runs

Real talk though, it shouldn't be our problem to brainstorm it because at any point Blizzard could have made a better game.

Damn this is awesome but educational because please know the boss fights atleast

The game pushes you to engage with M0's, always has. Basically the 'end game' of a leveling zone is to complete that zone's dungeon and once you complete your first M0 you get a +2. This is Blizzard baby stepping you into this content. (Side note: Veteran players know not to do this on a toon they want to power gear; we'd rather do something like a 12 on a new toon, easily get yourself carried, then have an 11 key to level up later.) They limit the maximum amount you can level a key to 3 levels per completion. So AT BEST you'd level you key from a 2 to a 5 to an 8 to an 11 to a 14, etc. Even for a new player, they will realize at some point that they need to stop and take a breather. Either focus on different content for a while or go actually look up a youtube guide on a dungeons basics, etc. A player that has completed 8 dungeons ever should not feel comfortable doing a 17 key, at least I wouldn't think so. At some point they need to take it upon themselves to not 'potentially' sabotage someone else's key cause they don't know the dungeon. Rather, stay at the 12-14 range for a while, learn the dungeons then push when you feel comfortable. As for solutions, your idea about Squishing the key levels is a good one and may serve 2 purposes. This season has been so incredibly easy that my friends are all clammering for an 'in-between' achievement that bridges the KSH with the top 1% achievement. You could make, essentially, 10's the new KSM, 15's the new portals and essentially 20's the new 'Keystone Legend' or something. If you were to commit to this 'squish' I'd also ease up the on the timer a bit and limit the key to a +2 upgrade. Right now its either +3, +2, +1 or -1. There is no 'no gain'. Perhaps loosen the timer up by 10% to start, so a 30 minute key is now 33 minutes. Make the +1 actually +0. You time the key, it shows timed on websites and addon trackers and on in-game UI, but DOES NOT level up your key. The old + 2 would essentially be a nerfed +2 that only upgrades the key by 1 and the old +3 is a nerfed +3 but only upgrades the key by 2. This would force newer players to experience lower keys for longer and lowers the chance of your key depleting overall.

im sorry to say, but if you have the exp and you notice people failing, explain the crucial mechanics in groupchat after a wipe or it's on you too calling people clowns is for sure not the play

I think one of the problems is that the barrier to entry for the beginning keys is so much lower these days. Back in BFA and even in legion and shadowlands the amount of affixes at low level keys was still very influential to your success in completing a key. The first affix came at a very early level of the key and by the time you hit +15 you had like 5 affixes including the seasonal affix at +10. Now people can run keys all the way up to lvl 6 before starting to see any difference in them.

he did that on purpose, many times in keys have found players that have done higher versions of the keys yet still will fail the mechanic. Its not always that they just dont know it, its just they are being trolls because its a lower key and they want to mess around to troll a key, maybe still time it but they just want to make it hard and run the time down just to pretend to be stupid or even put blame on someone else like a tank. Or even a healer for not keeping them alive while they ignore mechanics and flop dead. Maybe not in this video footage, but just saying oops and all that is insane for how long this dungeon has been out even before it was on current rotation for keys. 3rd Season of Dragonflight and people will act dumb and not follow mechanics because they like the reaction they get from making people frustrated or even pissed at the fact that this person who could have done higher keys like you said with Neltharions Lair Worm boss tank buster.