This Strategy Broke Smash Bros. 

The threat of double DQ to force the winning player to approach is the most galaxy brain move I've ever seen.

3:45 fun little bit of extra information. For a little over a year prior to these games, M2K had tried to bring up how overpowered ledge stalling was in competitive melee. The response was basically "stop complaining and just be better m2k" So m2k basically said "you motherfuckers won't listen to me so im gonna SHOW you how busted ledge invincibility is" The response of course were the same people talking about how slimy m2k is and all that, and pulling a COMPLETE 180 on their opinion about the ledge Just goes to show you how much the competitive rules in melee are based around hate instead of logicical thinking Is your favorite player doing "x"? "X" should be legal. Is the player you hate doing "y"? "Y" SHOULD BE BANNED

I remember the Hbox and Leffen rivalry and people pushing the tag line Leffen is the hero that Melee needs or some shit and all I could think when I saw that was WTF are you smoking. The Hbox hate was so ridiculous back when he played and he had so much weird hate cause the community decided he is some villainous monster that needed to be nocked down a peg.

Haha jokes on u I watched this like a year ago and now I will watch it again with your commentary. Love the content coney keep it up!

Aite I've had you popping up in my feed recently and every vid has been fire. Easy sub, keep up the good shit man, you put out some fun content.

That GnW clip is perfection. The character *might* drop an entire tier if people ever chilled out over the character.

This is an interesting topic to explore not just for Melee but for all sorts of competitive activities, even real sports. There has always been this divide of "if it's legal, and it wins, I'm doing it" versus "playing the game as it's *meant* to be played", and different answers have been reached for many of them. For example, in Formula One car racing, there is an extensive rules committee that has established all sorts of restrictions and requirements on how the racing is done. However, you best believe that ANY opportunity racing teams have to fuck with said rules, or skirt around them, they will absolutely do so. When there's money on the line (both directly and indirectly) you best believe they will do anything to win. The insane number of rules the FIA has had to implement is testament to this behavior. However there are also plenty of competitive scenes without some kind of governing body of rules enforcement, often with an emphasis on "fun" and "making it your own", which comes up a LOT in video games especially. In these areas where there's no authoritative force preventing unwanted manipulation of the competition, you will regularly see some very polarizing behavior because if it's not explicitly banned, and it wins, then why wouldn't they? The moment you put prizes on the line, you should absolutely expect humans of all sorts to do whatever it takes to win. Hell, some people even do it when it IS banned and just hope they don't get caught. I'll give one final example - if in golf, a player could legally balance the golf ball on the head of their golf club and run from the tee box to the hole and get holes in one that way, do you think for even a second that some professional players wouldn't do that? It's not "golf as it's intended" but if the rules didn't ban it, I'm pretty sure there would be a few pros that master this way of playing it.

The same dude who said he didn't believe in chain grabbing in Brawl with DeDeDe because he was honorable just said "Wobbling is/was fine." 🤣

Coming from the non-Smash side of the FGC, specifically Marvel, the idea of sitting down to play a match, looking your opponent dead in the eye and asking if they agree to not use a tactic that would give them an advantage is the absolute wildest shit I can think of. Like, imagining someone sitting down to play UMvC3 and saying “hey man, no sword loops, deal?” blows my god damn mind lol

I think the whole culture around melee is really cool, especially since the game will never be patched and it’s the same game forever. The fact that the meta can still somewhat change years later is cool

“Fuck the other guy, you’re trying to win MONEY” Truth lmao

People single out Ult, but the vitriol towards lame play in Melee had honestly been just as bad or worse in the past. It's either you played how others want or people like Leffen are gonna start a witch hunt on your character or just you as a person. Community seems way more chill nowadays, which is good to see

That Dedede that lied to the Luigi was 100% Coney.

Has CONEY reacted to Emplemon's Never Ever about HungryBox?

Thanks to you making your other video about this channel, I went and checked it out and binged these videos you’re watching in this one. But watching your reactions to them is an experience worth it in itself lol, so you can bet I’ll be watching this one too XD

The entire melee community: plays an aggressive rushdown style Hungrybox, the one top-level dude who plays defensive zoining: "ADAPT, MF! ADAPT!" The entire melee community: "I hate the antichrist! I hate the antichrist! I hate the antichrist!"

Its fun hearing a brawl veteran's perspective these events, even though i heavily disagree on a lot of your arguments

As a boring player, who regularly gravitates towards zoning and camping, I feel it’s important for me to be able to express myself.

JUST from how you ended the video xD funny as hell, another great video

7:10 Tell that to the Wolf I played that ran away for seven whole minutes, THREE TIMES.

I never got into melee, was never too active in the smash scene but watching movies about it is some of my favourite shit to do

The game of timeout/DQ chicken is so awesome lmao

The ledge grab limit is for all characters, M2K just complained about hbox specifically, the whole community called him out on his bias when he said this.

So true. I could never understand the HBOX hate. It was just excluding cool shit from other players. Anyone that didn't play spacies or Marth or Shiek or Falcon was automatically crap. I'm glad it's changed so much recently.

Another banger by Melee Stats that I rewatch regularly

These smash doc reactions are 100% among my favorite vids on the channel fr fr.

i just realized that theres a blackmar deimer gambit line in chessbase at 6:49 that melee stats has, most likely, put into chessbase and filled with notes about the falco peach matchup? i love this.

That dedede luigi story made me crack up. That's insane lol

16:59 okay, the Cut to the DQ with giygas's theme is genuinely a bit scary. Maybe that's the memories kicking in.

17:30 Wait a sec... That's not Bayo VS Bayo holding neutral-B. I've been bamboozled!

These videos are so sick dude

I'm learning the reason only like 9 stages are ever legal at a time is because Smash pros always look for the cheap wins. Kind of glad I never considered getting into Smash competetively tbh.

The only time the "subconsciously run into stuff" happens to me is when playing against friends who aren't really into fighting games. I don't want to upset them.

bro the "forcing boring people to be cooler than they are" is such a roast

The TV with chat is such a cool idea!

Coneys becoming a full react channel I like coneys reactions content alot but, i also enjoyed hos very surreal content I loved the saw ball maze stream

Real late to this party, but Wobbling should be banned as it is a single touch OKO on the entire cast, and it involves doing the simplest action, pressing grab. And before you say anything, I learned about wobbling from Brawl in which the only reason their top tier is because they can grab MK

Dude that's so cool you have the text in the background.

all of your videos are an instant watch

Your talk abou Hbox is so on points Coney, wish you could watch "there will never be another meele player like hungrybox" by Emplemon

I think melee should have ties. As it stands, if you have a % lead while the time is running out, it's optimal to play for the timeout so you can secure your win. But if there was no timeout victory, and instead it was a draw, then the person with a % lead (or closer to winning, in that case) would be the one that wanted to kill, while the losing player would play for the timeout. The difference is that since the winning player, well, is winning, than it means they have a higher probability of securing the kill. That also means that most players would also not camp during the first minutes of the match, since it just means the game is more likely to end in a draw, so there's less incentive to do so. The only problem is that worse players will try to camp better players because the feel they can't win anyways, but camping a better player kinda of already happens. The tiebreaker of the set could be a match with less time and stocks, and that would also force slow players to go for the win during the regular set

That Chudat and Hungrybox set where Chu SD’d to get Nana back was awesome! Fun to watch, no, but from a strategy standpoint I was into it

I love when Coney meleeposts

6:35 you can see armada's head swelling xD

Coney spoke the truth. Why ban wobbling when the same 5 people win all the tournaments

I’m inclined to like Lylat as a brawler main

Eh I felt Wobbling was bad but it was due to chain grabbing being a bad design to begin with. After winning a rock, paper, scissor engagement that resets situation to your advantage, you shouldn't be able to just gain more damage and advantage. Wobbling is bad, but so is Sheik gentleman's and everything else with how grabs work. Setting these rules just mean the game is flawed, Melee is not "perfect" like the community likes to say it is. There's definitely never going to be a game like Melee ever again and it's great for that. Just as Coney put it the community is a bit of a delusional cult.

Mew2king vs Nintendude in Genesis 3 is Prime Wobbling

Sucks to be you coney, I watched this ages ago, but I’m going to watch it again anyways

I tried ONCE to time someone out in ultimate online for 2:30 and I swear seeing the timer makes it a million times longer

I try not to remember Wobbling

3:01 i actually was in training mode and the 2 characters where luigi and dedede lol

You have some good takes on things

20XX!! Players have gotten improved and advanced so much over the years that peak optimal gameplay is to do nothing.

It's funny, because I've actually trained myself to be willing to do nothing for an entire game if my opponent is unwilling to come get me. It's a pain in the ass, but if you're playing against someone who's playing uber defensive, it is the optimal play.

"Why should an infinite be banned?" Insane question for smash viewers who wanna watch sick gameplay. "DID YOU SEE THAT BRO?! THEY JUST STOOD THERE UNABLE TO ESCAPE AS HE TOOK 200%" 🤡🤡🤡

"A Luigi player and a Dedede player sit down to play..." It's like the start of a bad joke! (Wait...)

I love “what your main says about you” stuff

chudat laughs at everyones patience

I love Melee way more than Ultimate but I absolutely agree with Coney. Melee was just being whiny cry babies that this one jigglypuff was whooping all their asses

Falco's biggest problem is that he's the slower version of Fox. He's still VERY fast in his own right, but he has just a little bit more frames per move than Fox and you can feel that when you realize how long his Dair lasts and why. The recipe for spacies requires good spacing because they have zero true disjoints and have to scramble or trade blows in order to make progress. Mew2King can force trade scenarios, and win half the time because he has a disjoint. The invincibility is just the cherry on top of backing into a corner and holding your sword out. Falco HAS to get around the sword and he can't shoot lasers downwards. Mew2King gets a second of invincibility before he has to start scrambling again and scrambling is one of West's specialties but it's understandable he didn't want to play against that many stacking disadvantages. M2k magic and elixir buffed himself pre-fight!

Anyone know the song/remix that was playing in the beginning?

_My_ take on wobbling is that it's a frame like 7 instant kill move. It reduces the stock to a single interaction. And there are ways to combo _into_ this frame 7 instant kill move. Wobbling drastically reduces the game's interactivity in a way no other legal technique does. And the best part is? If you ban wobbling, people might have to start doing desync combos and _actually learning_ the technical, high skill cap character that is Ice Climbers!

Did the Smash scene seriously Sirlin post? Thats really funny if true.

I actually love Lylatt, it's an awesome map for my main.

the problem with wobbling isn't that it's OP, it's that it's fucking miserable. literally what do you do when you do eventually get wobbled? just put down your controller basically. in Melee. they're the only character that forces you to take a 45 second break between stocks, that's what makes them so powerful.

Legit agreed on Hbox. I ask all the time, and man.... As a kid who liked to play Kirby back in the day.... I'm impressed he made Jiggly actually work.... Anyone who hates on him, should really re-evaluate what they are doing in their lives where how other people play video games, impacts their lives the way they say they do....

You could also in melee wavedash back grab ledge

I fucking love that original video.

Honestly, anything that allows you to win a match off of a single attack (or in this case a grab) doesn't sound very fair to me. Like if I was playing chess and this random jank move with a pawn from starting position ended in automatic checkmate. And you had to move the same knight back and forth to avoid it. And o yea Nintendo doing a tornament for this game now good luck to them.

We need to get Coney to react to the Icons video.

19:07 *This ending man* ...

Melee stats goes so crazy dude

1:30 NINJAGOOOOO

I would wobble but do it in a stylish way

Those things happen when you want to compete in a game that is designed for fun and not for rules :)

Why does Michael vs Bananas make me cry

Westballz has been shafted in so many ways by the melee comunity, that I can't believe he still plays

Makes me wonder if Coney has seen emp lemons vid

It's so funny looking at melee, and then looking at ultimate (which I have played 1000 hrs of) and realising that when you play it in a tournament style format (7 minutes, no items, limited stages) most of the characters are awful to fight, like just really annoying to deal with. But I love that now, finding different ways to approach your win condition, essentially outlaming other players, not always but a good amount of the time, its got a skill and a charm to it.

13:35 well that’s how u play ice climbers in melee anyway

Icies players need a pocket fox specifically for puff.

"There's something in the human brain that just doesn't let you" Me: lol *camps people out on quickplay with zss*

Losing your killer edge/reflexes/instinct is just getting older. I was at prime gamer age when Diablo 2 came out, and in pvp I used to be able to have sorcs drop frozen orb basically right on top of me and I'd still be able to dodge all the individual ice shards. These days my reflexes just aren't as good, like I have a hard time keeping up with the action on pantheon bosses in Hollow Knight.

I love Jigglypuff she has been my main since the middle of smash 4.

Melee takes so much work to be good at that people become good because they love the game. I think this is something not mentioned in that it weeds out most people who might compete just for the satisfaction of winning.

I knew about planking before Coney lmao make me a commentator

I'm just here to tell you my dad legitimately thought you were Jay Lenos son for no reason

what da chess engine doin

I swear to god these people have one braincell. You're not a scrub if you think that a character shouldn't just win a stock if you get grabbed once.

That dedede story confirms why I'll never get deep into the FGC, no matter how obsessed I am with fighting games lol. For every 1, minorly positive story, I hear 20 of the grimiest, grossest, pieces of shit that I'd want to pop the tires of lol. Like M2K is the perfect example. Everything I've heard is him being gross or weird off the set, it'a him abusing rules and going "oh well 😉", and the inverse where he loses to something once, and now the Backroom is throwing red flags like fastballs INSTANTLY.

I literally always waste a ban on Lylat. I’ve met people who will pick lylat based on the fact that you didn’t ban it so I always ban lylat. It’s just too jank even beyond the patch. People wanted Warioware banned because of the blast zones being really close to stage but lylat is practically the same minus it’s higher ceiling.

Wobbles was a real one.

I'm always suprised because all the smash big dogs are but coney isn't accually a meele Player...

after watching this video if i was in charge these games would never see the light of day. I had no idea. Trashorama.

I love Sirlin though.

Melee is a meme to me. Wobbling is the funniest joke that game has to offer. And what kills me are people who are ok with an infinite being in the game.

The Smash scene was quoting David Sirlin? As a member of the FGC, I apologize.

As someone who is an outsider when it comes to Melee, it's insame how openly accepted it is that techniques and characters get banned because the community's favorite player lost. The bias is so egregious that when the vid talked about Axe, Coney just said "Yeah you shouldn't beat Axe, that's a mistake" Is that not fucked up? This shit is why I'm gonna stay a Melee outsider. And it's awful in Ultimate too, but not as bad as Melee.

Shoulda checked the rules PepeLaugh