Introductory wargames was a great topic for your episode, and I thought it was a great show. Some introductory wargames can also double up as fillers for old grognards, when time is of the essence. Greg makes a terrific point in that sometimes the theme of the game matters more than anything else into what may be a good introductory game for some. Everybody is different, for some it may be gameplay length, it could be cost, or it may be a lack of opponents, or a limited group of opponents. Some folks want realism, some historical accuracy, while others may be more interested in the fun factor. I had a consumer's guide book when I was young, called The Complete Book of Wargames, and in the begining of it, it had a small chapter on "who were the people who made up wargamers". I thought it was very interesting how diverse a group of people it went on to explain played wargames. Your episode kinda echoes that same thought, because you guys really hit upon a lot of different issues, that all pertained to the shows theme. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I thought it was another great episode, and I hope you three are all able to keep up the good work! Maybe in a future show sometime soon, you can find the time to tell us all a little bit more about your backgrounds, and how the three of you came to form HAMTAG in the first place a bit more. BTW, I think Judd's hat is way cool, Greg makes me want to try ASL, and Bart, being (I hope I understand this right) an army medic & police chief (is that correct?), well, you have my respect all the way.
Realism & historical accuracy - That's kinda what I was saying when I mentioned Risk and Stratego. We (many of us? all of us?) played them as children. Then we wanted something more "real" so we moved on to what we're playing now. I also have The Complete Book of Wargames (1980 - by the editors of Consumer Guide!!), as well as The Comprehensive Guide to Board Wargaming (1977) and The Best of Board Wargames (1980) - both by Nicholas Palmer. Fun to look through them and see where we were. I've said it before - ASL is the one game I never get tired of. The complexity, the storytelling, the diversity. If I had only one game on a desert island, that would be it. Thanks for watching.
I would just like to thank HAMTAG for the great tip for command & Colors, to speed up the setup and packup. Really allows me to table the game more and makes the game even better than it already is. Cheers to HAMTAG.
This was a great and thought-provoking video. I was glad that "A House Divided" made Judd's list. It is currently my favorite game. it can start out for folks as an introductory game, but then if one adds all or most of the optional rules it can become a long-term project. The game can also be altered to more closely mirror the historical situation. I continue to work on that. For example, limit each side to no more than four cavalry and do not let cavalry operating without infantry enter an enemy city with a recruiting value higher than one. (Sure, I know that some Confederate players out there will groan that this suggestion would take away their favorite plans--but in your heart you know that having super-cavalry like means the game no longer resembles the American Civil War.) Another more historical house rule (assuming use of the coastal defense option) would be to not allow Confederate garrisoning of coastal recruiting cities until the Union side has attacked one of them. This would simulate the Confederate decision to create large Tennessee and Virginia armies in the War's early months and would actually give the Union a historically accurate chance of taking New Orleans from the sea. My friend and I are also experimenting with a random allowance of an additional march during about one-third of the turns that can only be used to allow each side operate a force in what would otherwise be the ignored Trans-Mississippi theater. Anyway, I enjoy your work.
In regards to Euro gamers not being welcoming, Puerto Rico is the classic one. And if you played it at WBC it was horrible. The first time I played it was at WBC, and the very first move I did the guy next to me said "why did you do that? you just gave the game to her". It was so competitive I would never play it again at a con, only with friends.
The awesome part of this video (and all of your vids; as well as Tom, Zee + Sam's), is the three very different points of view that each of you bring to the conversation. Super series of videos! Keep up the good work! Great for the wargame community! Two thumbs up!
Fortresses America is John Millius in a box!!! Lol I also own the original game too w/ the Saddam pic on the front. Shogun or Samurai Swords is a great wargame. I need to play these again soon
BTW Judd, got a super post from you over on BGG regarding Mercury/Market Garden, ordered both it and Anzio/Casino...thanks also for the links for the rules clarifications! Great re-watch here on this episode! PS, you guys have super theme music!
Sounds like Greg is a super teacher of games, that is a HUGE plus for any game that a new player may be trying. It may be just as important, if not more so, than the choice of game itself.
And I fully agree with you it was the theme for Warhammer 40K that Drew me In. I was generally just casual of a highly invested magic the gathering player at the time.
COIN series sounds like it has a lot of elements that I first saw in We The People (I own Washinton's War now), which I liked a lot. It's very interesting to see the political aspect involved in a war game design. So many super game designs and systems out there!
Great vid as usual ..... Love Combat Commander and own the entire collection ... Currently knee deep in the system for the upteenth time. Simple but extremely thematic ... a must for me with any game :)
Scotch Test Dummies I highly recommend it ... especially once you add Mediterranean to the original .... Though Pacific has to be the best of the lot imo :)
Hey Bart. Since you said you were interested in Operation Mercury, here's an article I wrote on it that appeared in the Deseret News this last week: www.deseretnews.com/article/865603667/This-week-in-history-German-paratroops-invade-Crete.html
As with all gaming since the dawn of mankind you have to accept that different people will be introduced differently, so I think wildly divergent lists just shows that your hearts were in the right place. The one thing that seemed to be a common thread, which I also definitely agree with. You'd have to physically beat me with a WW2 (or fantasy/sci-fi that draws Nazi parallels) game in order to get me to interact with it at all, but other historical settings would draw me right in.
haha, is that vodka in that ice cup !? btw I would say Command & Colors: Napoleonics / Ancients and Battle Cry are good additions to those intro games you listed. And I would push for Heroes of Normandie also, (don't be fooled by the cartoony art though it's more complex than say Memoir 44).
I put the images up for mine because all my games are boxed while I finish the basement of my house. The guys are showing their box covers. Did I miss one? Bart
Scotch Test Dummies I think he's referring to games we reference. For instance, I reference Labyrinth, Hearts and Minds, Axis & Allies, Command & Colors: Ancients & Napoleonics, Battle Cry, and Breakout: Normandy. He's got a valid point.
A good introductory wargame is one where the new player can relate - can visualize whats going on. For me, that means a tactical level game. With it's graduated rules, the original Squad leader is perfect.
Programmed instructions are awesome. I know people say they hard to reference, but that's what an index is for. When I learned of the existence of ASL when I got back into gaming, my first question was "Does it have programmed instructions?" When the answer was "no", I said, "No thanks."
Definitely would have preferred some more pics of the boards and game. I’m researching wargames to play, and it’s pretty difficult to figure out what’s going on,
I was just looking at this episode again, deciding on whether or not to get Mercury/Market Garden, and having just recently played and been introduced to Worthington's Napoleon's Wars, I think Judd is on to something when he commented that he would give the nod to Napoleon's War's over C&C Napoleonics. I'm a HUGE fan of the Command & Colors system, but I would also be of the opinion that Worthington Games Napoleon's Wars would be a better introductory system/game for anyone interested in the Napoleonic era. Napoleon's War is based on Worthington Games Hold the Line system, which I think it's fairly safe to say that that system is based in large part off of the Command & Colors system to begin with. Here's why I'd go with Napoleon's War over the C&C Napoleonics. First, pre-printed game boards, no map set up. Easier to set up and tear down, no tiles getting bumped during play. Also, it has no cards, but rather uses an action point system. So there is no frustration of not having a card to do what the player wants to do. Also, some of the non-section cards can take a new player some time to get used to, and a player more familiar with the card deck will have an advantage. Both super games, but if I had to chose one game to introduce someone interested in the Napoleonic era, I'd go Woprthington Games Napoleon's Wars first, then C&C second. Just my .02 cents. :-)
Check out this: www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1241991/rule-variant I have been messing around with Napoleon's War and I think I made it a lot better. When I picked 5 games I took it from the perspective of a Eurogamer want to go buy a wargame, read the instructions, and teach himself / herself. C&C:N is not that game. It is far too complicated. If you have a good teacher, you can learn, but it is still too hard trying to formulate a good strategy because of battle back / support, cavalry momentum, and the formulas for how many dice you roll (considering losses for movement and terrain) and what hits and doesn't hit. Why would I say this? Because the first time I played C&C: Ancients, I was lost on these concepts. It took me 4 games to start figuring it out and Napoleonics is more complicated due to the reduction in dice. But with all that said, with time to reflect, I think the BETTER introductory Napoleonic games are games like Jena-20 and Columbia's Waterloo game. But yeah, C&C:N is not an introductory wargame: not even close. The easy rule: if a Richard Borg has plastic pieces, it is introductory. If it uses wooden blocks, it is not.
My group plays 15mm Volley & Bayonet Napoleonics. Love that game, but we modded it by added a referree and fog of War. We also do Full Thrust with either Centimeters or inches for units. But these are miniatures war games, not board games. You guys mentioned Battle Lore at the end as being comparable in category to Memoir 44', I didn't think that was a board game. Is it easy to learn?
It is an Ameritrashy version of the Command & Colors system. It has plastic pieces instead of wood blocks. If you have played Command & Colors: Ancients, Battle lore is a stripped down version. You have support & battle back, cavalry charges and momentum. Where it gets good is you get magic tokens (usually as a roll of a dice) and can buy cards with them which give you spells to try on the battle field. I think it's weaker than Battle Cry, Memoir, C&C:A, and C&C:N, but I traded Federation Commander for it and don't regret it a bit.
I don't see much point in a table top game that is for no more than 2 people. If I am clearing a table for gaming, I want 4-8 people around it. 6 people is my magic number. You can do FFF, 2v2v2, or 3v3. Or you can go RPG s with 1 GM and 5 players.
Memoir '44 was my first real board game, it was the biggest money sink I've every spent on. It's setup is way too long, I agree with the house rule idea, I'll be using it in the future.
I got a really big Plano box. I store my units in there. I have another one for terrain. I have a small Plano for tokens. Set up is pretty quick. When a piece is eliminated, I toss it in the box, so I am picking up the game as I play. Hope that helps.
Guys: I'm wondering if you guys can come up with some type of video explaining the different mechanics in war-games - area impulse; chit pull, COIN, etc - and some example of games that newbies (like me) can play to get use on them. Even that I was expose to war-games WAY, way back in college - 25+ years - , it is now that I start getting into the hobby. I've been getting games like crazy ( ...and my wife is getting crazy because of that), but I'm more concentrating in solitaire games for now.
Bart kicked the idea around last time and it didn't get much traction, but if you ask, we are always happy to answer. Area-Impulse: Your board is divided into areas. The turn is divided into sub-impulses. During an impulse, you activate an area and any and all units in that area can activate. In Storm over Anhem and Storm over Stalingrad, all activated units must all do the same thing (move to the same area or fire). In Breakout: Normandy, Monty's Gamble: Market-Garden, Not War But Murder, Operation Battleaxe, and many more, you select a TYPE of action for that area. It consists of re-grouping (moving without combat) or an assault impulse, which could consist of moving into an enemy area and causing combat, since you cannot fire one area away. In those games, activated units can move in different directions. In the "Storm Over..." games, each player performs impulses back and forth. When a unit finishes activation, it flips to its "spent" (back) side. When all units are spent or when both players "pass" in consecutive order, the turn ends. In the other games, there is an "Impulse track" You go back and forth. On even number impulses, the player rolls 2 dice and if that result is less than the impulse number, the turn ends. Otherwise, it continues. You will not be able to activate all of your units and it creates an unknown amount of game turns -- 4 or 12?
Chit Pull: The easiest example to demonstrate it is Guns of Galichia. Units are color-coated by army (1st army is one color, 2nd army is another, etc). Each army has a representative chit with their name and color on it. Both sides throw their chits into a cup and you draw them out. Only those units can move or fire. It creates unpredictability, because I might have 3 different sets of units in a row go, but they cannot coordinate. It is a great split from UGO-IGO (You move all you units and fight and then I move all my units and fight).
COIN: The wildly popular "Counter-Insurgency" (COIN) series created by Volkho Ruhnke and published by GMT. Games included Andean Abyss, A Distant Plain, Cuba Libre, and the recently released Fire in the Lake. It plays 1-4 players. Each player has objectives and so you try to make yours happen while preventing the others from happening. They use a clever 2-card system, where you see a card and know what the next card is. You can either wait for the next card or take the action on the current card. It has a very "Eurogame" feel to it, compared to your standard wargame and they use wood cubes, cylinders, and discs.
What no love for Fortress America! lol great job guys, I pick up memoir 44 a month ago and really like it also I just picked up Axis and Allies Dday for cheap on ebay and looking forward to playing it.
How could you NOT love Fortress America!!!... especially with Saddam Hessein on the Cover??? Genius! Got an original one at a yard sale. IF you can, try to find a game called "Shogun"... great plastic, made by the same folks that made "Fortress America"... great game, feels good to play with something that isn't a cardboard square. I think you might find a copy on EBAY...
LORDJAVI131 Hi... Fortress America is a pretty sweet game... as a guy who used boards and unit pieces to make his own games... Fortress is owning a bit of heaven...great plastic pieces
Half As Much, Twice As Good. In our first video, I said it to explain why we only do Top Five lists, instead of the more common Top Ten. Then we came up with the acronym because it makes a good search term when looking for our videos.
Hey guys... just reviewing this vid... I'd go for "Tactics II", "Midway", "D-Day" (AH)... I agree with "Memoir 44" and "Battle Cry".
2 года назад
Last warning to the serious gamers out there: bypass KickStarter's pay, pray & wait processes and check out this [free] top of the line game of mine (I used all of my engineering skills in the making of it): This new game is a [re-themable] mod i.e. a [quite] complete re-design, re-imagined by an engineering fan with no other constraint than to bring great value to the table. This new game uses a subset Blood Rage's components. Playing time is under 90 minutes. It's for 3 to 5 players. As far as this game is concerned, it's a final state. Who tends to like this medium-low weight game? I'd say Sam Healy would (I could be dead wrong here, but I'd bet otherwise) and so would Conan the Barbarian (for sure this time). It's savage, primal yet cunning, See features eg. no over-complication with tons of cards and pieces and bits. This game works best with players aiming at attaining the best score possible ie. be as far from the last player as possible. Your play may then favor (using interference) one clan over another one. Features 1. Straightforward rules allowing you to play as you learn 2. Quick to set up & teardown (tallying the scores is near-instant) 3. No individual boards - one spot to watch allows catching "mistakes" 4. Low latency, you want to see how the board evolves 5. Original dice system (an exciting cards replacement option is also provided) 6. Variable Player Powers 7. Run for a common quest 8. Great Re-playability 9. Original scoring 10. It would be impossible to create a bot player that would play this game in an optimal way Life involves Conflicts; Conflicts bring Battles; Battles give Glory. drive.google.com/file/d/1SqYGJlwj2VtqbMy2VtKIqePQrJxQ7Fhu/view?usp=sharing
A&A Pacific 1940 is not the same game at all as A&A Pacific, they have different concepts,rules, units, world powers,maps etc and the A&A Pacific 1940 combines withe the A&A Europe 1940 game to make an A&A 1940 Global War.
Thanks! I was hoping someone would clarify that. I only have A&A:1941 (introductory game) and Pacific. I'd like to get Guadalcanal because I hear good things about it, but haven't been able to pull off the trade yet.
When I think "introductory" I was going for games that a non-wargamer could buy and read the instructions by himself/herself and then play the game and teach it to others. ToI has a little more beef than that one, in my book, but I do like the game a lot.
So, I'm not sure if the fake vomiting at the mention of a couple popular Eurogames is to impress any fellow grognards who may be watching or if it's because you really despise those games that much. Either way, you may want to avoid mocking other genres while trying to entice fans of other genres to give wargaming a try. As one who is dipping my toe into the wargaming pool, I am disinclined to consider the recommendations of those who feel the need to vomit at the mention of games I enjoy.
Greg should have brought up "Tactics II" from Avalon Hill, easiest board game to learn, or perhaps "Waterloo" also from Avalon Hill. We used to call them the $6 games... when they came out... as opposed to the $7 games like Panzer Blitz. Judd shouldn't put down all the expansions from Memoir 44... lots of great tanks, terrain markers and other things that really expand play. Love the show... keep it going...
I own all of them except the Plastic Expansion and the Battle Maps. I probably could have done without the Terrain Pack and Winter Wars, though. They were a waste. The other stuff was really good, though, but to each his own.
Judd Vance You know, Judd, I got ya when it comes to buying into game systems and spending a ton of cash. Winter Wars gave me, at least, some machine guns, and other things that make the game a bit better... ME... I'm into creating my own scenarios and testing out some theories... also creating my own games... so the extra stuff comes in handy... the aircraft was nice, but a little too expensive for my liking... I have other aircraft units I can use to spot me. Working on a game about revolution in the third world, and will use the Memoir 44 pieces to help out. HEY... two questions, if you can answer them... what happened to the ASL boards with the really-large-hex's? Can't find them anywhere. Also... since you seem to enjoy ancient warfare... SPI put out an omnibus game about ancient warfare that covered everything from Genghis Khan to the crusades... see if you can find it. Are you interested in the Spanish Civil War or the Russian Civil War... bought some games, over the past two years that are really good... also check out "Gringo", I think Games Workshop... four scenarios about the Mexican war. LAST POINT... I'm really hoping that Memoir 44 comes out with a leadership component... Captains, Sergeants, and the like... might be a game changer... what do you think? Keep up the good work...
Tactics II - Definitely the right complexity for an intro, but, consistent with what Bart and I said, as a general rule, having the interest of a real battle makes for a better intro game than an abstract like Tactics II or Blitzkrieg. That said, Blitzkrieg was my first real war game. It worked as an intro for me. (That is the same generation as Tactics II and Waterloo. PanzerBlitz came out after I was already playing AH games.) Deluxe ASL - I can't speak authoritatively about the business case for the large hex ASL boards, but the belief is they didn't sell well enough to be continued. I think there were two reasons. First, the change in scale kinda messed with ASL mechanics. A regular ASL board is 10 hexes across. The deluxe boards are 5 hexes across. So there's half the room for maneuver, which leads to more point blank, high firepower attacks, instead of Fire and Movement. Which led to fewer scenarios being designed (and most of the ones that were designed felt pretty similar). The two modules (Streets of Fire and Hedgerow Hell) are available on Ebay. But you gotta want them..
Greg Schmittgens Hey Greg... in hindsight I can see your point... real battles do draw the player into an emotional attraction, theories really don't. I guess "Tactics II", "Blitzkrieg" and "Kreigspiel" would not meet the definition all that well. I guess I was thinking of ...perhaps D-Day (AH), or maybe "Afrika Korps"... maybe "Midway" Granted, these games are NOT always available, but (delightfully) they have a pretty good price on EBAY. I have a question for you... can you give me your opinion about Panzer Blitz or Panzer leader? I know all you guys don't necessarily like to bring up games from the VERY DISTANT past, but the more I play games like PB/PL and "Tobruk", the more I see the genius of them. Have you done a show where all of you discuss these games? Anyway... love the show and am looking forward to any of your episodes in the near future. Recently, as a post script, I began to dive into an older game "Space 1889" which is highly imaginative yet has a rock-hard combat system to it. I hope, one of these days to have enough other players to do multi-player games... "Diplomacy" (for serious players), "Waterloo", Blitzkrieg (especially with the Third--Green empire), and Civilization... like a lot of game players I'm not fortunate to have a group of board gamers handy. Keep up the good work...
Hi Greg, Judd and Bart. Nice video and I like what you do for the war gaming hobby through the Dice Towers channel. A game I feel should be on this list is definitely "Sekigahara - The Unification Of Japan". That game is so easy to learn with only 8 pages of rules, but still so deep with strategic decisions and thematic tension through cards representing loyalty. (Feudal Japan was a treacherous time and you would never know which allies you could trust). To have such simple rules and yet have a game that feels so incredibly thematic is an achivement in game design, if you ask me. The game is rated at #9 at boardgamegeek in the war game category and I think it is a little strange that it hasn't been mentioned by the Dice Tower. I think Greg mentioned it briefly in the "top 5 war games of 2012/2013" video but that was by a misinterpretation of the list, if I remember correctly. Yes, I know there a thousands of games out there and you can't cover them all, but I just wanted to throw out a little reminder so this game won't be forgotten. This is my #1 go-to game for introducing non war gamers into war gaming. I have yet to experience someone who didn't like. Cheers.
