Top5 Reasons Bonanzas and Barons Crash Part1 

Fascinating. Thanks, Scott. Looking forward for part 2.

Thanks Scott. I'm looking forward to part 2, and maybe beyond.

I worked a contract with the Mexican Air Force a while back - they are good at wrecking things.

Thanks for posting Scott!

Scott, early in my flying career, I flew and instructed in Bonanzas, as well as having done an accident investigation of an inflight breakup of an early model 35. A couple of observations: 1) The Bonanza is delightfully light in roll control, much more so than a C-210. For that it gives up some roll stability, meaning that a slight upset can initiate a turn. In IMC, an overloaded pilot may not notice the upset and respond after a "graveyard spiral" has developed, where he pulls back too rapidly on the yoke, causing the tail to fail. This is a common Bonanza crash scenario. 2) To save weight, the early model 35s had no shear web between the upper and lower surfaces of the wing, but relied on the "D" section of the leading edge to carry the shear loads normally resisted by a web between spar caps that extended the length of the wing. With age, the rivets holding the lower "D" section skin to the spar cap work loose, leaving telltale black aluminum oxide streaks. If those rivets fail, the "D" section "unzips" from the spar, allowing the airflow to enter the wing interior, leading to its destruction.

"For those of you in Rio Linda". Thanks for the reference, great men all around!

I saw a Bonanza land gear up once. I was in A&P school and we were on a lunch break at Meacham Field in Fort Worth Texas. Everybody was just sitting there quietly watching planes land. The smokers were smoking. Beautiful summer day. I was standing by the door and I turned to go inside and all the guys went, "WHOA ! ! ! ! !!!!!!" I looked to see what they were whoaing about and a Bonanza had landed with his gear up. He skidded to a stop on the runway with what looked like minimal damage. I bet it was shocking as hell though.

Great video! Looking forward to the next episode.

The Twain quote was awesome, Scott. I say If you are flying a twin, you double your chances of losing an engine. ~ Rick Shelton

Thank you Scott for your fidelity of effort. Value of Learning is bonus. Your content is top shelf by good margin.

Good stuff, looking forward to part 2.

Awesome presentation! Keep 'em coming!

Hi Scott, G’day from Oz ! I have been following your u tube channel for a couple of years, since I bought a 33 1965 model. I have learned a lot from you and continue to do so. Thanks for your work, not only is it interesting, it SAVES LIVES.

👍☑️ Tks for all the time you put into this Scott.

I have flown a lot of planes single and twin over the last 50 years, mainly Bonanza's and reviewing some hairy situations that I found myself in had they ended in a fatality it would have been my fault pilot error, so when you make a mistake don't make it a second time, some really bad mistakes you don't get the chance to see it a second time, so keep up revision training, particularly recovery from unusual attitudes , that has what has kept me alive for so long.

My father owned 5 model 35 Bonanzas from 1950 until the mid 1980s when he lost his medical. His log shows more than 7,000 hours in the type. He loved the airplane. The last two were full IFR airplanes. Three of these airplanes were crashed by subsequent owners, 2 fatally. The second is still flying but there is some question about the third. The fatal accidents were weather related including flying into icing. These "statistics" are a lot worse than yours. My father, a very careful pilot, felt many V tail accidents were from pilots not accustomed to flying a lot higher performance airplane than others in this era.

Well done as always, Gunny. Your data parallel with mine from tracking piston Beech mishaps since 1990. Like you, I focus not on definitive conclusions-because we don’t have enough data to draw them-and more on the apparent trends, the lessons we can learn (and many pilots forget). Of course less than a third of what most would consider to be “accidents” don’t meet NTSB reporting criteria so never are entered into the CAROL database at all. I look forward to Parts 2 and 3. - Thomas P. Turner

That’s always been one of my favourite lines: “Lies, damned lies, and statistics”. Great video as always thanks Scott.

Excellent Scot. Interesting data. I was surprised to see the 36 series so high and the 55-58 series were not higher. Which leads me to question factors of pilot proficiency, qualifications and experience. Having been an aircraft dealer for a few decades and my father a Cessna, Beech or Mooney dealer for much of my life, and having bought flown and sold quite a few copies of all Beech singles and twins, including most versions, from T-34, to A to V35b, A36s, a couple of B36TCs, B, D and E55s, a 56, a couple of B58s and three 58Ps, and having flown each one of those aircraft from 30 to several hundred hours, my sense is the Barons, especially the B58 and 58P models are more demanding and unforgiving for even an above average pilot than an A36 or V series, and I would say the Barons generally place the average low time pilot at higher risk than a single-engine Bonanza. I also think it could be telling if we could look at personality factors and types. Most of my customers who bought A36s and 33s (about 15) had about 250 hours and with more money than time to dedicate to the aircraft and proficiency but they took flying seriously. Those guys and a couple of gals were scared of the V-sires and would not consider them. By contrast, I would say that the V-buyers (at least 20 of them) were on average mid time, and very much above average in awareness and skill level. None of the V35 buyers under 200 hours had any incidents, but the three of the A36 buyers did, and pretty early on. Most of the V35 buyers stayed out of moderate IMC and icing but the 36 guys didn't. One B36TC doctor ran off a runway on landing and nearly lost it in icing. He got scared and bought a helicopter, so go figure? I also sold a lot of 200, 300 and 400 sires Cessnas, and we used to joke about the differences between Cessna, Bonanza, Piper and Mooney buyers. The 210 Cessna buyers were almost always type-A with big egos and little flying time and patience, nor much ability to take advice. Most managed ok but one T210 customer who had a major landing incident and totaled the aircraft was a B747 Captain who was a "COB" on the controls. I had to take control during the first demo flight on a crosswind landing when he got it up on the nose wheel and right main and the wingtip just inches from the grass. That poor guy was more disconnected from the aircraft than most student pilots I've seen, and like a few other "Cobby" big iron pilots, I attribute that to training and a lot of cross-country/coffee time in "ONE" type. I also recall an Airbus FO buyer who managed to crash a 337 with an instructor on takeoff after attempting a takeoff with a rear engine that vapor locked and quit on taxi. The Tower even told them their rear engine was not running early in the take off roll but they elected to continue the takeoff with 8000 ft of runway remaining, then elected to leave the gear and flaps down. What they were thinking is hard to imagine. By contrast, I sold one 421 Cessna, A 58P and a 500 Citation to guys who had between 50 to 200 hours. The 421 and 500 buyer had less than 100 hours, but all had tons of bucks and time to learn . They were considering buying high-dollar, high performance singles to take their family and friends on long distance Cross country IFR trips. But out of safety concerns I advised they consider the right aircraft for the mission and develop the skills required for the mission. I set them up with experienced Instructor pilots to get them proficient on the FUN trips they wanted to make. In each case the IPs loved it, the families loved it, Their Insurance companies loved it, and the the owner-pilots loved it. They all flew a lot and today they are some of he most solid and safe pilots I know who also have a huge love of aviation, largely because they learned "Right" from the beginning and respected the limitations of their abilities and the aircraft.

Excellent content as usual

Really interesting I can’t wait for part two My Best wishes always from Las Vegas Craig Bravo 👏🏻

Well done, thank you, Sir!

I love it! "...If you don't know Mark Twain, welll..you *need* to know..."

I am reminded of a couple of aviation applicable lines from Twain's 'The Innocents Abroad': "One day when the ship's tail was pointing at the sky ... " and: "It occurred to me if two cooks in one kitchen can spoil the soup, then what can 5 captains in one ship spoil?"

Excellent, Gunny as always. Your experience tracks with mine for the last 30 years, and more importantly we agree that NTSB reports reveal only a small part of the picture..less than a third of known accents and events do not meet NTSB reporting requirements and never enter the CAROL database at all. Like you I focus on the apparent trend, not “statistics”…and there are lots of lessons to learn (and many keep forgetting). I look forward to Part 2 (and perhaps 3). - Thomas P. Turner

I've loved all Beechcraft products since I demonstrated and sold the entire product line years ago. These aircraft appeal to people with a great deal of money. Some of them are not very good pilots, and don't survive. I learned that Beechcraft Bonanzas and Barons, with the exception of the B36TC, have stall characteristics best described as "abrupt". Don't go there without plenty of altitude in which to recover. The B36TC remains fully controllable in a deep stall with the wheel full aft, but the descent rate is tremendous.

In regards to staying alive as a pilot…it sounds like you guys are on to something worth doing👍. Excellent work!

Mark Twain is my FAVORITE! My FAV quote from MT is "It's better to cause happiness where you go than when you go"!

My paternal grandfather, who lived in Charlotte, N.C. - where my dad is from co-owned a 1960 Butterfly tail Beech Bonanza. It was a beautiful green and white plane with gold trim. The tail number is N9922R. It's now owned by a guy in California and has recently been flown. We took a VFR flight in the early 80s from Charlotte to Kitty Hawk, N.C. and back. He was not instrument rated and we did land in the Class B airspace of Charlotte Douglas. The sun was going down and so it was ripe for a get-there-itis accident. He was a good pilot and we got lucky. I never flew with him again because he died in 1988, but his youngest son retired as a captain with UPS, and his son - my cousin is an FO for Jet Blue. He may have upgraded, but I haven't spoken to him in a few years. I enjoy your channel and respect your experience. Also, thank you for your Air Force service,

I flew a Baron 58 and lost an engine after lift off. If I hadn’t been practicing on these single engine procedures, the results would have been catastrophic.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge

Interesting to see that the 35 series is only 1 percent off the 33 series, and considerably better than the 36 series statistics. Seems whenever there is a conversation about bonanzas the v-tail has a dangerous reputation. Very good content. Thank you, looking forward to part two!

You’re such a good presenter, Scott. Furthermore your videos are really well scripted and from a content perspective simply excellent.. As we say in New Zealand: Ake ake kia kaha.

Hey neighbor! Love this even being a Beech fan!!! YOU, Juan and Dan ROCK!!! Scott- from waaay far away in Wimberley...haha!

Hey Scott, statistics: especially from more than one source can be an excellent way to identify both favorable objectives and problem results. Now: to fix it....... Looking forward for part Two. 🌏🇦🇺

Interesting data and I have always believed a private pilot was just as safe in a single engine as a twin, for a lot of reasons. Thanks for looking at the data and nice presentation

Standing by for part 2…..

Thanks Scott

In my 10 years of being around aviation I have seen 2 accidents. Both were Bonanzas, 1 fatal.

Thanks, this is interesting

I like the mark twain Philosophy I was actually taught a class in my undergraduate on how to lie with statistics LOL!

The V tail looks cool but i would prefer the conventual tail. I think proper training over a long period, a lot of time at the stick with qualified trainers. Love your input Scott Perdue.

Liked the Twain quote. Ah, yes... statistics.

4:46 - Another great quote: "...if you don't know what's happening, ya don't know what's happening..."

TNflygirl was in a Debonair, she bought it as soon as she got her PPL. She was always behind the aircraft, she depended on the autopilot to fly it, and she did not know how to operate the autopilot nor understood its functions. I believe she got the plane out of trim fighting the autopilot, and when it disengaged the plane was unstable and she was unable to orient herself and take control of the aircraft.

This just popped up again in my recommended list so I thought I would give you my top five reasons that these airplanes crash. Partner in law firm. Cardiologist. Orthopedic surgeon. CEO CPA

Subtle Rio Linda reference. Nice.

I loved the Rio Linda comment! You must have been a Rush listener!

The V35B is my favorite single. Flies like a dream.

When I was taking my Private Pilot training the instructors called them, "Forked tail doctor killers". From my experience it was true. Twins have a lower safety record probably because pilots are loathe to cage the bad engine and commit to single engine flight. They want to squeeze the very last bit out of a dying engine. In a single when the engine quits their is no mystery about what is to happen and most likely that it will not get back to an airport.

Thanks see you on the next one

Great job! A little nerve wracking when the viewer has no idea of where the runway is until the last few moments.

Planes don't crash by themselves. They usually have help from the cockpit.

I love your use of Latin plural for the Cirrus :)

Inconceivable!

The v tail can be in the weight and balance with full fuel at gross weight, but out of the envelop after a four hour flight with loss of control at normal approach speeds.

I'm curious to see what part of the Baron accidents are attributed to Vmc roll-overs and how many could potentially have been avoided by more engine-out training and how they compare to other twins. Really interesting content. It may be out of the scope of this discussion but I'd love to hear your opinion on Baron VG kits. They supposedly lower Vmc below the stall speed.

I flew freight in the 33, 36, 55, and 58 for a couple thousand hours. Favorite was always the D55. All great airplanes if you respect their limitations.

Very interesting!! Thanks Scott!! One thought I had, I wonder how many Barons were modified, and if that made any difference? Also how many were used commercially? Flying passengers, bird dog for fire aircraft, other special use?? Bonanza singles are like flies at a picnic. You find them everywhere no matter where you go! LOLOL 8) --gary

Scott, another very interesting and thought provoking video, please keep up the good work. I wonder how the statistics would look if we compared total fleet hours flown (per model) vs total accidents (per model), as some of the models you examined were produced over a longer or shorter period of time. I guess I am implying that accidents per year may not be the best experimental variable? what do you think? and for the record, I am waiting impatiently for your next episodes !!

Hopefully as we continue forward the NTSB or other organizations will collect more pertinent and precision data which will help in identifying more exact areas of concern. Storage is cheap!! The more precise the data input into a model the more meaningful the result. I worked for a major defense contractor for forty years as a performance engineer. As the internet evolved, I had the responsibility to provide internet usage forecasting. The data I collected over the years was such an invaluable view into the history of Internet growth. Accurate data if not collect unfortunately is history lost which can never be replaced which I believe you so accurately point out. Very nice work and looking forward to your next analysis!!👍

"...for those of you in Rio Linda." Hahaha! RIP, Rush.

Statistics are really tricky things. Whenever you see a bump or an outlier, you really have to question a whole universe of subtle factors that no one would have thought were relevant.

I can only imagine the E33C safety record is due to higher skilled pilots due to the fact they were doing aerobatic training. I think a good way to look at this is ask what kind of pilot was flying and how current were they? The V tail has a nickname of "V tail doctor and lawyer killer" Another thing that would be interesting would be to look at all Popular GA aircraft types and see which aircraft have the best safety record per flight hours flown.

I haven't got that far in your story yet, but I'm curious if some of the twin engine total losses versus single engine are due to loss of control after single engine failure. I wonder how many are lost due to the surprise/not ready factor when it happens. There have been a few other twin types in recent times likely lost to just such a thing. I also appreciate the comment about Dan, too. If people can see past his enthusiasm, there is much to gain.

An OR and Fortran Guy!....welcome to the club...

Interesting, but there are so many other factors you'd have to include, such as individual pilot experience/ability in the particular type. Maintenance, or lack of, would speak volumes to crashes involving mechanical failure. I'm interested in your opinions because you 1-fly a Bonanza, and 2- are a very experienced pilot. I can only attest to the root cause of one Bonanza crash, a V35B owned by a friend, who, along with his three passengers, survived a catastrophic engine failure on takeoff about 7 years ago. That failure was due to an improper assembly after a TBO, the loss of a crankshaft counterweight due to an improperly installed retaining clip. It might be interesting to look at only engine failures and explore why they failed.

The fact that the aerobatic variants have the least accidents makes perfect sense and substantiates what I harp on about constantly. All pilots should be exposed to aerobatics or at least very unusual attitudes before they get a licence. Otherwise stall spin fatals are going to carry on happening. Simple as that. If you are scared of practicing stalls and spins you shouldn't be flying and certainly shouldn't be carrying innocent passengers

Great production! Top 5 “hit” list 🙄 pun intended? 🤣

Glad that you are focusing an area plagued by myth and gossip. V tails got a bad reputation, and it's worth pointing out which Bonanzas don't deserve the disparaging remarks.

Scott , very interesting.Please turn up your recording mike. Your voice is very soft. Thank You.

Wow!!!!

People are so focused on gathering statistics rather than learning and applying to avoid mistakes. Like lets talk circle to land operations in business jets. N880Z and the Lear 35 crash in Teterboro are great examples of aerodynamic stall during circle to land.

6:12 - Aiiiiiieeeee! FORTRAN!!!! Slooooowly I turrrned... Step...by...step...Inch...by inch....... Circa 1977 (before "personal computers", which at that time was unthinkable), I took Computer Science as a minor in college, and one time I remember trying a semi-complicated program which included "2x2=4", and I couldn't get it to work. I had to ask one of the student advisors where my error was, and he pointed out that I was missing one "." in my formula, and I said WHAT???!!!!, the whole program bombed-out for the missing "." ?!!! Forget it, I'm changing my Minor to Industrial Relations....Decades later, I grew to appreciate such need for accuracy and attention to detail, but my 19-year-old brain at that time balked at the idea that such human inaccuracy could not be accommodated with computer programming technology. Today we have "speech to text", "Spell check" and "canned" programs which perform miraculous calculations, and fill out forms and spreadsheets which were 110% *MANUAL* in entry and calculation in 1977.👨‍🎓

The structural integrity of the V-tail was an issue in the early 1980’s. As I recall, “Aviation Consumer” analyzed accident reports that suggested a higher structural failure rate for the V-tail compared with the Cessna 210 and Mooneys. Do you recall those days?

I posted recently, Twain famously said (or did he?) "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.” That was long before social media and the technologies of today but these things make it even more true.

Great article! Have you studied the crash of 1974 V35B N21MD. It fits the definition of “Doctor Killer”

The top 5 reasons Bonanzas and Barons crash. 1. They leave the ground 2. Pilot 3. Pilot 4. Pilot 5. Gravity sucks.

Please do the same analysis for the Cessna 180/185 and compare results.

The rejoinder is that “It is easier to lie with statistics but it is easier to lie without them.” Statistics is a tool that needs to be applied correctly !

I had a 1977 A36 zero issues - and after sale I rented an A36 that had the engine quit and landed no problems or damage in a farm field so no FAA report.

The things that Twain said is timeless wisdom. They often Apply today.

My main Bonanza experience is several hundred hours in a straight 36 (not "A"), and I'm having difficulty seeing why the 36/A36 would have that much higher takeoff accident rate. The takeoff performance was fine for anything like a "normal" airport (not back-country Idaho) so I don't get it. Any ideas?

55 Baron one of the best looking planes ever made.

The bell curve is just the visual representation of standard deviation.

One thing to keep in mind is, statistics are really only informative of systems that are effected mostly by chance. General aviation is not such a system. Chance does play a role in general aviation safety, but much more important is the behavior of those involved with a given flight, especially the pilot. The pilot's behavior both before and during the flight can have a dramatic effect on the safety of any given flight. For example, watching Flywire videos can inform a pilot what to do (or not to do) in a given emergency. This information may be the difference between leaving a smoking hole in the ground with 4 charred corpses inside and a bent up Beechcraft with 2 adults and 2 children with PTSD standing near by. I'm just not sure GA aviation statistics are very useful. They don't tell us the human element. How much safer are you as a pilot if you always use check lists, or if you get some kind of extra training, or how many Flywire videos you watch.

For all the dissing of statistics, there is great reliance on statistics throughout the discussion. The main takeaway from the first six minutes is the crash database is inadequate to answer the question(s) you’re trying to answer. Very little discussion of the additional information that would improve the database and allow you to answer your questions. There is another old statistical adage that says, garbage in, garbage out. I think that’s what you are really trying to say as you try to mine murky data to answer your question.

What about the Beachcraft Duke ??

Good afternoon to all from SE Louisiana 25 Feb 22.

2 comments: 1. owned a 1953 C Model Bonanza - 4 seats, 225hp Lycoming - sweet plane to fly, but no messing around on landing - stall characteristics with gear down is 5,000' to recover. Practiced regularly at 10k+ altitude to recognize pre-warning signs & feel. 2. haven't flown in over 40 years, but remember reading pretty thorough crash reports in AOPA, mostly small private planes. This was about the time private jets were becoming a thing. Why are reports so hard to find since the '80's?

Beechcraft Bonanza V35 just crashed near my neighborhood in Clearwater

My wife picked up a wrecked plane I bought for parts.When she was in the middle of a 10 acre airplane graveyard ,she asked the mechanics who helped her load our purchase “what happened to all of the airplanes?.The mechanic replied “Pilots!”

Maybe the stats are close because it's the pilots killing themselves and everyone onboard.

The rate per fleet of over 10 pct seems high. I do think this warrants comparing types. Perhaps look at Mooney as the longevity and mission is similar.

Scott, can't wait for part 2. Regular viewer and subscribed. Ex A36 owner and pilot. Is there a way that I can get an NTSB report to you of the crash of "my" airplane 2 years after I sold it. I have some opinions as to the how and why of this crash and first hand experience in flying that particular airplane in exactly the same conditions as when the crash occurred. Thanks. I can provide my email address. Don

A lot of times from what you see is low time pilots in less than VFR or marginal conditions. Not keeping up with the higher performance.

Focus having two engines is more management, it's easier to make the right choice when you have less.

Do u cover bush plane crashes?

Comment 3: Did you look into T-34's? - Our Civil Air Patrol Squadron had one. We often flew them together - after wash n' wax parties - the best wax was faster. The T-34 was pretty much identical to our Bonanza - except could fly inverted and was two seater fore & aft - had 225 Lycoming too.

Short answer they're very popular aircraft and lots of the pilots don't maintain competency