The protocol on approach is to assign an approach and get a single read back containing the call sign, runway assigned, and specific approach in a single transmission. There is no such thing as progressive approach clearance.
Dunno man sounded like the pilot read back the callsign on the clearance then the controller didn’t acknowledge his call but rather read back the clearance again at which point the pilot was like wtf mate.
@@Lukeduke7773the last call the pilot did read back the callsign. The reason the controller repeated it was because even though the pilot read back the callsign, he never read back the runway assignment. You must readback everything with your callsign. You might be able to get away with abbreviated version at smaller airports, but if that pilot goes to runway 25 instead of 26 and the controller never checks the pilots readback, then that’s the controllers ass.
I’d love to force ATC to say PHX APP, after every transmission. It is a lie that you can’t recognize a voice after they have already given their call sign. Their voice after that point becomes their call sign. Government workers only care about one thing: keeping their jobs.
Just about 4 hours ago I was landing at PHX and the approach controller cleared me to a lower altitude, assigned a heading, speed and cleared me for the visual for 26. I read it all back and forgot to say the runway assignment. She checked to verify my landing clearance. I apologized and read the clearance back properly. I didn't get all triggered and I didn't end up with a phone number. Hmm...
@@SidewaysEightSix I don't know if that is a true statement. When I cinch up my necktie and walk out my front door, I go into pilot mode. I get home, take the tie off and go back to being the goofball I've always been. Haha
I’m a retired controller with 40 years in Tower, TRACON, and Center. I also hold an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. Luckily these situations are very rare, I only had problems a few times with pilots. Proper phraseology is imperative to a safe ATC system.
I'm PPC holder (50 hours of instrument). I'm in the Controller's corner here. Pilots should be reading back their call signs to eliminate any ambiguity, it only takes an extra second. In the pilot's defense though, he wasn't trying to be lazy. He was just trying to abbreviate his transmissions to keep the frequency clear. But his attitude upon being chided by ATC was unprofessional.
Trying to use jealousy to bait the incompetent pilot. Not the correct use of radio. Gas lighting ATC baiting an incompetent pilot on frequency. Noone comes out this looking professional.
I also got a slight reprimand from Phoenix Approach back a few years ago for not acknowledging my call sign after read back. since then I have never forgotten my call sign after read back. Phoenix controllers are a bit hard, but I'm glad for they keep us safe when in there control. Thank you PHX.
Does your callsign change with each flight? If so, I feel like it could get confusing having different call signs every flight. "Delta 15....err oops that was my last flight, Delta 1725."
@williamfrank7565 Rather be a Rude ATC than a polite ATC that has a fatal occurrence on his record. These are Alpha Dogs so hurt feelings are for sissy’s
American 1479- you’re a highly paid professional flight crew! You know the rules and the proper phraseology which has been established with the blood of others that have crashed. Read back all ATC instructions and runway assignments with your call sign! Get with the program and stop being so snooty!
Heard this audio awhile back, glad you have the longer version (with Tower's exchange). I can't imagine the other pilot working in the cockpit at that instance. Now they both have to file paper work and call the number... The proper ATC radio communication is even longer than what is mentioned here. In the real world, a lot of abbreviations and non conformance exist to save time. But what the ATC is asking here is quite reasonable. 1) you don't want the wrong a/c reading back, especially if there are multiple a/c with similar call signs or flight numbers. 2) you don't want the correct a/c landing into the wrong parallel runway, which PHX has 3) no matter how righteous the pilot feels, they should be able to control their emotions and carry on their day.
one thing for sure, don't ever mess up with people who are meant to keep your safety in the air... i just remember atc - pilot conversation in new york (with aer lingus i believe), and the atc just made that plane turned in circle because that plane wanted to fly to direct waypoint, instead of the traffic at that time...
@@RLTtizME I am an airline pilot and his attitude was petulant and unprofessional. So, I was shocked as well that his ego got the best of him and probably conceded him a meeting with the American Phoenix hub chief pilot.
Seeing a lot of videos from various creators lately with pilots being extremely rude and unprofessional with controllers. As a pilot building hours toward my commercial, all I gotta say is: If you're that unhappy with your jobs, I'll trade you any day. You're flying an airplane for a living. Smile. You've got the coolest job in the world.
It seems that way when your working up. But it’s still a job at the end of the day. Usually the stuff around the getting to fly a plane is what drags on you over time. The “Getting to fly a plane for money” tends to undermine getting real QoL in the rest of the job.
Huh? What about the other pilot who was reading back correctly and without sass? Do you even know who was flying? I feel bad for the other pilot he got dragged into this stupid situation instead of just going home or to his next flight.
The way the pilot was sarcastically speaking once he was upset honestly is how all ATC communication should be if safety were properly respected by all involved.
Ding Ding Ding Ding! Generally speaking, all pilots and all controllers blurt out words and phrases so abruptly and quickly I don’t see how anybody understand anything. (I’m just a “layman” not in the industry.)
@@dwightbernheimer331 So many people these days with an inflated ego who imagine themselves superior. Like this guy, they are now everywhere. And no, I'm not from Phoenix Arizona.
Being 99% compliant in the cockpit is a recipe for disaster. Some supervisor needs to listen to this, then brace that pilot up against the wall for a career discussion.
The co-pilot took over plane's comm on the ground. The ATC was frustrated with the pilot for not using proper comm procedures. I'm sure AA will hear about it and take measures to correct this pilot.
No, I don't think so. I think the "second" voice you hear IS the Captain. The culprit in this video making a mockery of proper radio etiquette is the First Officer.
I took flight basic flight training a long time ago. Never made it to my private pilot's license, but I got the basics down. Communications with the tower was taught to me to follow this protocol: 1. Who they are, 2. who you are, and 3. what you want. "Santa Barbara Tower, Cessna 89190, holding short the parallels, request right departure." Now, since those days I've listened to a TON of ATC comms while watching traffic, 'cause I love it so. Many, MANY occasions I've heard tower/app/dep fail follow this simple protocol, because yeah, it is repetitive saying who you are all the time to everyone calling you or everyone you call. While I'm sympathetic to the problem caused by the pilot's shortcuts on protocol (pilot encounters a more strict environment, should just go with it for safety sake), I fear the moral of the story here is that some shortcuts are okay, while others are not.
The controller decided to play the standard phraseology game while having no regard for standard phraseology himself. The pilot was in the wrong on the first two transmission by not ending with his callsign, but he fixed it and read back the third instruction without error. The controller continued to berate the pilot for no good reason. Then the tower controller had absolutely no regard for phraseology, intentionally antagonizing the pilot. ATC was completely in the wrong here.
That’s what happens when professionalism is expected from time clock punching fungible HR units. Professionals run their own practices and get punished for being shit at it by going out of business. There needs to be a different word than “professional” to describe behaving like a grownup employee.
Vector to join the loc, altitude to maintain, then a visual approach clearance in the very next transmission....retired ATC here, that's a bit of a head scratcher.
Seems to be a new breed of controllers coming out of school however, it might be a good idea for more aircrews to visit some of the facilities and witness the atmosphere in the tower and IFR room, especially during a peak periods. Not including my military controlling years, I peronally had the opportunity to work the slowest to the busiest facilities the FAA had at the time. Each facility had it's own flavor of operation. The one ingredient that never changed was attention to detail. One of a controllers worst nightmares is miss identification or assuming an aircraft is going to do what you expect it to and it doesn't. My aircrew friends are also under pressure. Fatigue from some of the schedules they are faced with that many times includes sleep deprvation due to their schedules. Some crews having to take flights from out of town just to get to their assigned trip. We all want to vent. Not sure transmitting frustrations over the air is the best policy. Attention to detail however, must remain high on both sides. It is part of the job.
I used to listen to YVR Tower all the time and I remember there was a local controller there who instead of (eg) "Time 1358 Vancouver Tower cleared downwind left for runway one-two, contact Vancouver Tower on 118.7 at the VOR" would say "Time 1358 VOR 18-7 for twelve". Good times.
about 8 years ago i was based out of lax starting my airline career for compass as a copilot for an AA Regional carrier and there was some frustration in the tower because of language dialect issues for some intl carriers arriving not all but some which is understandable. Most of the errors were related to read backs. A buddy of mine works for new york center and he says they deal with the same issues occasionally.
I had a student who was from Taiwan and read-backs were his kryptonite. He had been in the states since early high school, but languages like Chinese have a tough time with “in-between” words. He’s good now, but yea, some languages are shaped really different from english.
First lesson in aviation: never let your emotions get in the way. Stay professional , if you want to talk about something you didn't like ,ask for initials and a phone number.
As a retired controller I would say the controller was correct in wanting a full read back on the clearances HOWEVER…. This doesn’t really rise to the level of a pilot deviation. The reason controllers need full read backs is because sometimes parts of a transmission do get cut off. In this case there was one transmission by the controller that had the numbers but omitted the company identifier. If the pilots were smart they would just say they were giving their full call sign every time and for some reason it wasn’t coming through. Either way I’m sure nothing came of this
Felt like the captain took off his headset to fume for a minute the first time the FO took over. Glad most of flying is automated now and not fully reliant on the emotions of an ill-tempered pilot.
I read it exactly opposite. No way mister happy I'm just here to chat was the Captain. I'm sure the Captain has put up with this F/O's shenagins for not just the duration of this flight, but for more before. After all, this could be day 3 of a 3-day trip and he's put up with it for a while. When you have a generational separation, actually disciplining small stuff like this will get you eye-rolls and complaints to the Chief Pilot of their base of operations.
@@marcusoreillius9966 Ok so i may have misinterpreted who was #1  i get that but it's just not acceptable to mis-readback instructions (that's basic) and then throw your toys out of the pram when you're picked up on it by someone who's job it is to make sure it's done correctly it's all on the tapes after all and a good controller would be picked up on it if he let that slide you mentioned it could be day 3 of 3 WHO CARES ? if you can't do the job correctly don't do it and an 'eye roll' from a Chief Pilot at an Ops Base explains why these things happen way too often Communication is Key If you get it wrong then that's when accidents happen and after all these guys are bus drivers, it's about the passengers safety, not their ego (20+ years of working on ATC Advanced Systems Research Projects & Training Students, Controllers and Instructors at Institutions across the world)
I have a feeling the tower isn't the last conversation he will have about this. The one with the chief pilot is the one that he may need to be really afraid of. He may want to call a union rep right after the tower.
Including your call sign is 2nd nature, same goes with reading back the rwy, especially on a clearance. I remember I once read back “holdshort on rwy 5”, ATC replied “No, holdshort rwy 5” and rightly so made me read back w/o the preposition.
F-5’s Sniper 11 and 22 were reprimanded by ZAB Tucson sector on 3/2 at ~19:34 for busting into R-2310A and then were notified of possible pilot deviation at KIWA ground at ~19:50
I'll never understand why pilots don't get it that atc has strict procedures to follow and if they don't their supervisor, or worse yet the FAA will get on their ass about it.
Or an arrogant pilot getting all poopy pants at the controls of a multi million dollar jet, hundreds of lives in the back, and my precious unmentionables in the overhead.
The big boys like to use alot of slang in their transmissions. They use " climbing to two five zero" which could be misunderstood as 2250 or what have you. Or they hop on the freq and use only thier flight number to accept a freq change or alt,speed,or crossing restriction. They most definitely have a more relaxed view on radio edict than others..
That same type of “slang” caused FTL 66 to crash years ago, while on approach.. In that case it was broken English. Controller said “Descend two four zero zero” , when he meant descend to 2400 ft. The FTL crew interpreted the transmission as “Descend TO 400 feet” while miles from the airport
That pilot sounds like the same guy who was having readback issues at KJFK. Same voice, same accent, same airline, same exact issue and sarcastic "staccato" readback of flight number.
After seeing the smoke from the crash of P.S.A. flight 182 in San Diego on the 25th of Sept., 1978 -- now you know why I'm even VERY SUSPICIOUS EVEN OF AMTRAK! I've been to 42 intl. airports throughout the world since 1960. Too much trouble. Sad, but true. * Cav *
Flying out of Phoenix, certain controllers have a tendency to escalate such situations simply by the tone of their voice. I recently flew the Bravo transition south, and missed adding my callsign. The approach controller became borderline hostile on frequency. Apologetic I reiterated with my callsign and moved on. Though I was definitely annoyed about the treatment. That being said, the pilot was pretty childish and should have been more professional here.
@@insomnia20422 of course ATC was right, but he didn’t have to bite my head off about it. I don’t get belligerent with ATC, and there have been plenty of opportunities to do so. Professionalism is a two way street.
They've got plenty to sort out without needing to be confused on ANY detail. It is their responsibility to coordinate every craft full of human souls to arrive safely and orderly.
You’re flying a plane, not riding a bike, and need to adhere to the rules and regulations, otherwise there can be a serious miscommunication leave your ego out of it, especially when you have a plan full of passengers.
@@brycedenning130I'm ATC and we get regular proficiency checks where the supervisor is plugged in listening. If you let anything at all slide (like a readback without the callsign, even if it's clearly the same person), you get written up for it. No way am I going to have a failed check ride on my record just because a pilot is feeling lazy, so that's why you might get an attitude from ATC.
Sure if you’re a renter in a private plane. An airline, they just call your dispatch, dispatch tells ATC, FAA, and your boss who you are, and then things…escalate.
These callouts are important if a mishap or accident occurs. Some airports are stickers about call sign callouts, but approach and runway confirmations are most important. This pilot was all over the place. ATC was pretty patient until the end.
Part of the ATC's job is guiding the flights properly and also verifying that the pilot understands the instructions and that is why they require a read-back. Controller was correct and pilot was triggered because he got called out for being lazy.
In forty years of flying, I have had to deal with obnoxious controllers like this. I just let it go but in retrospect I wish I had filled a formal complaint with Transport Canada.
The rules are extremely important to avoid miscommunication. The pilot knows the rules but the ATC was the cause for the unnecessary escalation. It's not like there was anyone else talking to that ja.
I didn’t understand the “pilot deviation” at the end and giving him the phone no. I knew the AAL pilot was snarky, but did he actually mess up on landing to get a phone no.?
its a formal notification to the FAA, YOUR COMPANY AIRLINE , AND FLIGHT CONTROL, THAT YOU THE PILOT MADE A SERIOUS POSSIBLY FATAL MISTAKE,, AND THEY WILL WANT SOME GOID ANSERS FROM THE PILOT
I've heard these things happen so many times. It usually comes down to someone being in the wrong in technical terms, and being very accustomed to cutting corners a bit to save time. And then there becomes the pride moment where someone thinks they're bigger than the other person. In the end it always comes down to who is doing things correctly, doing the correct things, abiding by policy and procedures. And this is Phoenix which I image is pretty forgiving. I can imagine how this might be handled in a nation where English is the second language.
Shots fired. PHX is an AA crew base. This controller and pilot are likely going to "speak" to one another _plenty_ of times going forward. Each will immediately recognize the other's voice and will be on-guard
I have only taken 2 trips by air in my life, and even I know that the traffic controller wasn't being a jerk. He "MUST" know what is happening with all airplanes and which planes are where to prevent an air or ground accident. This pilot was so unprofessional that I even wondered if he actually had the proper credentials to be flying that plane. When the pilot finally got on the ground he should not have only been reprimanded, but also been required to take a few "reminder" courses on the proper way to communicate with the tower.
So you are an expert eh, having ridden in the back of an airplane twice? And you have the temerity to recommend a re education camp. Sounds like a leftist/ Marxist know it all!
What pilots don't know is segments of your time on position are randomly pulled and scrutinized for procedure and phraseology errors. With the invention of digital recordings, they can listen to all your transmissions in rapid succession with no dead time, so they can listen to every transmission you make in a 2-hour period in just a few minutes., Because those that can, do and those that can't work in the office, they having nothing better to do then knick pick the crap out of you every chance they get, and as they say craps runs down hill. So if they don't hold you accountable, they are the ones that are going to take the whipping for it.
That pilot clearly has had a bad day or some anger issues. But acting like a child is really not it. If the ATC prefers you to make accurate callbacks you gotta do it. If there is an accident ATC is in the shit if you didnt read back the runway and crash into an airplane on 25... The ATC just voiced his demands for the pilot to accurately callback. The pilot then mocked him by saying if there was an communication problem. The ATC did everything very well and I think it should be standard to be more accurate on the radio to reduce confusion. And even the pilot deviation, although not a huge one, might be possible because he didnt accurately callback and then started to argue with the ATC when he wanted accurate callbacks.
One fussy pilot. Perhaps he didn’t have any leg room like the passengers crammed in the back. I flew to Kauai last year on a PHX to Lihue flight aboard one of their 757s. My knees and the tray table became best buds for 6 hours.
Uh, actually no. Controllers are required to get accurate readbacks; not to mention this is at an airport with 3 parallel runways. This pilot was failing BASIC pilot/controller communication skills.
@@paranoma87 So give him a number and be done with it, sparring over the frequency like a child isn't acceptable on either end, both acted like children on a playground.
@@sebrofc ATC didnt spar with him though. He gave him the reasons why he needed an immediate compliance with FAR's. If he didnt do that then he would have cancelled his approach clearance and that would have caused more delay so ATC did exactly what he should have. The pilot then got spiffy when he was clearly in the wrong. I am in full support of any controller giving a phone number to any pilot acting like a jerk when ATC was just doing their job. This system works because both parties agree to a set of standards that increase safety and decrease needless communication. This pilot was violating that pact.
I’m a little confused here…… should Phoenix Approach have identified himself at the beginning of each transmission also ? Commercial pilots please advise. Thanks !
The place for an exchange is not in the highest workload segment of flight. After the third error the controller should have worked the flight to the ground without protest, and then once the aircraft was off the active runway, called with a number. Keep the hostile ATC voices off the freq and deal with the pilot when tapes can be pulled. I see fault with professionalism on both ATC and the pilots side here. The job is to safely recover the aircraft, not add more fuel to the fire. When ATC starts talking about phone numbers as the aircraft is landing that adds stress into a critical segment and reduces safety.
Why on earth doesn’t the US adopt and enforce more formal ATC language? Given controller workload and the increase in miscommunication related incidents surely this course of action is long overdue. Comms need to be clear and unambiguous and all parties need to be ‘singing from the same hymn sheet’ both for safety and efficiency reasons.
