FWIW, I spoke with a couple of doctors in my family, asking them about trauma in relation to archery hunting. The consensus was, that even a tiny broadhead in to the lungs of any animal WILL kill it, a wider one will just bleed out faster. Penetration and shot placement is what matters most.
I really wondered where you were going with this at the beginning. Once you got into the density of stone vs steel, it became immediately clear. Well done Ryan.
@@huntprimitive9918 I'm guessing they used bird points because they shot bear shafts with no points and then knapped the smallest point because it wouldnt change the dynamics of the shaft.
Really great data Ryan. I read an article many years ago in primitive archery magazine. Same deal, small points wit a 35lb.bow at 20 yards went deep every shot.
Well done Ryan. I know some arrowhead collectors who refer to their smaller arrowheads as “bird points”. Little did they know that those smaller points were the most effective on large game. Nothing like imperial evidence. Guess I’m going to have to buy your book lol.
I have done quite a few of them and killed a few hogs, but once you have cane its hard to go back to the hardwood shafts. Cane is just so much more forgiving and stays straight really well.
Impressive. I honestly hadn't put much thought into arrow efficiency.This better explains why so many cultures were okay hunting with relatively light draw weight bows. Guess I should finish the book :)
I really like your scientific approach. Only through detailed observation and experimentation can you get to the bottom line if what works and what doesn't.
I've always kind of wondered this since with firearms a smaller diameter and faster projectile has, generally, more penetration than its larger diameter/slower moving counterparts. Even though that applies to super-sonic projectiles, it's neat to see how it applies to relatively slower moving projectiles like arrows. It also reminds me of the arrowheads Ishi would create- very slender and thin! When I make my next batch of arrows I'll be sure to take this information with me!
Ryan, I am reading your latest book right now and it is fascinating. Never really thought about primitive hunting with stone points this deeply, and your book is most helpful.
@@huntprimitive9918 my family has collected stone points and tools for many generations here in central Pennsylvania. I thought I knew a lot about them until I read your book. It seems our collective understanding of stone points is generally wrong. Understanding doesn’t dawn on people until we see real time exactly how tools and points were used. You have done that
@@pamtnman1515 Thanks very much. I certainly don't and cant even know everything about it, but I definitely believe using them a lot gives a totally different perspective
My first deer was with a primitive set up, I have since regressed backwards in my bowhunting journey. I was using a moose rawhide string, on a hickory/ipe self bow. A true yeoman longbow, shooting off my hand and no raised handle section. The point I used was long and narrow like you talk about being efficient. I aimed high for a spine shot, as i anticipated low penetration. Played it perfectly and the doe dropped right there from a spine hit. Penetration was about halfway up a 29” shaft. I had to put another shot into the doe, with another stone point. From up close, into the vitals, penetration was still not great, the arrow never penetrated the chest cavity on the opposite side. Was a good hunt, this was about 10 years ago now. I would love to talk in depth about this with you. I learned a lot from the trad bowyers bible when I was starting out. You make awesome videos.
@@huntprimitive9918 appreciate it Gil. Youre a good dude. The breakdown you give on primitive gear is brilliant. Question for you, when do you harvest your river cane? I know of a place it grows, just not sure what I should be looking for age/season wise.
hickory/ipe self bow? Do you mean hickory or ipe self bow? Cus if same bow has both woods, then it is not a self bow, it is laminated bow (unless the one or the other is just a tip overlay, but i doubt you would be mentioning a tip overlay material), self bow is specifically a bow made out of single piece of wood, technically even if it is a self bow, and you cut it in the middle to make a take down bow, it is arguably no longer a self bow, cus it has two pieces of wood, even tough they were originally one piece. To me it still would be a self bow, cus the working limbs are made out of only one pieces of wood both, but it is not commonly accepted opinion.
I've always thought "bird point" was a misnomer. I'm no primitive archer, but I've killed enough deer with a modern bow to know these big old quarts points we find in western NC were never on an arrow. Had to be spear or atlatl points.
yup, absolutely. I sure wouldn't be shooting any of those big quartz points at deer. Definitely a bounce off waiting to happen (been there done that..lol)
most likely knives or cutting tools , only the rare thin and well made uniform quartz points would have been suitable for use as a projectile for the same reasons you cite
Excellent video! I've been wanting your book from the beginning (I'm in a situation in life when I just can't afford it, so don't sell out yet!), but this video is an awesome plug for it. Thank you
thanks Robert, and thanks much for following along. I think I saw your book order come through this morning. Thank you. It should be out in todays mail
Great explanation Ryan. I fall in that "retro" area you mention, and although my selfbows have taken 100 plus animals thru the years, I've struggled with stone myself having only taken a couple deer with them and lost as many as well....frustrating, as my selfbows are "heavy" bows by today's standards it seems. I am still in awe of the rock-breaking talent you and others possess, but the practical knowledge of stone point use put to practice in hunting is a bit lacking out there, and this helps a bunch. Having been a fan of Dr. Ashby since his study first came out, I too, tend to just "go back" to what works using that logic of bigger/heavier points. I've always thought that "bird points" were more likely used hunting big game, but had no real reference to seek on it....I will be buying a copy of your book. Good video....
Ryan, if you have a chance to respond, let me ask you...how would the principles of small points apply to steel? Alot of states don't yet allow the use of stone points. Could an archer craft smaller points from metal, say a half inch wide by 1.5 inches long to keep with the Ashby 3:1 ratio...hafted to a primitive arrow similar to the small point arrows you describe in the vid...would the archer have similar or better penetration? How would small metal points compare to small stone point? Hope this question makes sense.
you don't really need to make smaller metal points if you don't want to. You can certainly kill animals with the small metal points, but the friction on steel is significantly lower so you can use rather large metal points even on relatively slow shooting bows
Question How far does the animal run after being shot and how much blood do you get for tracking. Also, how many animals have you lost using those small points. A small point does not do too much blood vessel damage so I believe it will kill eventually bit how long does it take for the animal to bleed out.
It's well known native American "bird points" provided more than enough of a point to penetrate large game. It's so annoying that many state laws about archery tackle require nearly inch wide points. It's always seemed very arbitrary and there's no research I can find that they've built those requirements on.
The point of the laws is to avoid the use of non-broadheads or too-small broadheads in hunting big game, which can potentially be an issue of cruelty and improper hunting, but there is a blindness to the situations in which a smaller broadhead is necessary, such as with stone, and with primitive equipment, that can't penetrate well.
luckily, the 7/8 wide points are still plenty narrow for penetrating big game and they do create more hemorrhage. I don't think there is a lot of science behind their numbers, but we can still typically work around it
I think I can help you out here. Its not about logic, or research, and despite what the regulators who create these laws tell you, its not about ethically taking game. It is about money, pure and simple. They know for a fact that the ancient peoples of this world regularly took game very effectively with light weight bows and tackle, and what would be considered by today's standards tiny little stone points. They also know that depending on where you live, you can take a walk out your front door and find everything you would need to build a lightweight bow, string, arrows and points, and even feathers laying on the ground or growing from it. You could then gather these things, and build your kit from them and use that kit to hunt effectively and ethically, without having to spend one cent on anything other than the hunting license. That is the issue. Every weapon sold in the USA, every arrow, every broad head point, have taxes placed on them that once payed go into conservation efforts, hunter training programs, research, and legislation efforts. And the people doing the training, conservation work, research, and yes even helping to write the laws and regulations are the very same people who say, "Your Arrow head has to be at least this heavy, or at least this wide, and your bow has to shoot at least this poundage in order to hunt large game, and you should absolutely wear this obnoxious ridiculously bright hunter orange color on a specific percentage of your body when you hunt so that you can remain safe (guess what, its kind of hard to find hunter orange garments growing on trees, and there's taxes on them as well)!" In essence we are paying them to maker it illegal for us to hunt without paying them. They've got us coming and going, and that's the way they like it. With enough outside pressure from groups who understand how all these things work and have an interest in the primitive arts and want people to be able to use these skills and technologies, we are beginning to see some change, but not much and for most of us, not nearly fast enough. I can never truly express the gratitude I feel for people like Ryan (sorry if I misspelled your name) who tackle the truly gargantuan tasks of learning these skills, executing highly scientific research into these topics and then disseminating their findings to the rest of us so that we can both learn and help to bring about positive change that not only benefits us personally, but will also benefit our species and out world. Ryan, you are an inspiration my friend. Thank you and keep up the fantastic work.
Hey Ryan, great video! Honestly this is kind of good news for me because I’m pretty bad at making bigger points, but one problem I have is that a broad head in my state, Washington, must be at least 7/8 of an inch at the base, even if it’s a stone point, and I know a lot of other states have a similar law. I’ve been trying to make all of my points right on the edge, as close to 7/8 as possible, but it’s hard to get that sort of consistency, and sometimes I still feel like it forces my to make bigger points than I want.
Hey I was wondering what you think of a short Spear atlatl about to times longer then the thrower. The atlatl would be thick and inflexible and with fletching for stability in my thought. This could be usable for tighter areas and small game where a bug long Spear could get stuck in dens vegitation. Maybe something you have tried or should Try, would be interesting. Spelling mistakes do to auto correct to Norwegian toung and being a second less mastered language
Even Jack Brittingham with a compound bow set at 90 lbs, took multiple well placed shots on a bison. So 3-4 shots with primitive stone points is well within a respectable range.
A good modern trad bow made of glass with the proper set up can kill any north American large game with 30-35 lbs of draw weight. With a compound you get let off and less felt weight through the draw cycle and at low weights are extremely efficient. Crossbows are extremely effective and are great for people who are unable to draw a bow. Self bows can be used at lighter poundage with the right set up, but aren't nearly as efficient as modern counterparts and probably should be avoided depending on how bad you shoulder is. I shoot both self and modern trad bows
@@wk9953 thank you for your recommendations. It gives me more to consider. Both my rotator cuffs were torn in an accident. That was 15 years ago. I just have to know the best options so I can still bow hunt with as little risk as possible.
@@dschott1083 if you do choose a vertical bpw start with the lightest weight possible and work your way up. I would say 30-35# max for a starting weight and aim for a hunting weight between 35-50#. Remember as much good practice as possible
Beccause of my fascination for primitive/traditional native South American technology and culture, I wanna go ahead and build bows and arrows of the Amazonic style. Nowadays here in Paraguay natives build not with stone tools but with modern hand tools, specially with machetes, so I think I will at least start like they do it today, since I think it would be easier for me. If you have any advises for beginners please share them, I'd be very thankful. I'm guessing I would be falling into the retro category, right?
Yes, you're on a good path with it. I did a video a couple years ago "HuntPrimitive Bushcraft bow build and hunt" you might pick up a couple things watching that bow being built with nothing but a large knife. best of luck on your builds
In my research of hunter gatherer societies, e.g. hadza in Tanzania, and multiple amazon tribes, when hunting very large game, they all gut shot them with barbed arrows with lots of poison.
I actually have a small poisons chapter in the book as well. No real proof of it in America but some good info in there about it and a couple mentions of the Hadza
Higher FOC is always more forgiving of poor shooting technique. Just comparing field point to field point on both. There's a really good video out there that shows that. It just means you have to be better in your shooting in your lesser FOC setups.
It's not really important at all. It can certainly add benefits to both arrow flight and penetration, so don't get me wrong there.... but high FOC is just impractical and even detrimental within the primitive/stone variables
Hi Ryan, First time on your channel and just subscribed!!! I guess I'm the "odd duck" here as I don't read and follow a lot of "primitive archery current trends" (or the strange viewpoints many seem to have...???...according to this video of yours.) When you started explaining what "others" suggest is the problem (aka go with bigger heads...???!!!) was completely nonsensical to me... "Primitive Hunting" for me and my family was simply..." hunting"...and we all made traditional bows and arrows... I'm not here to support your observations...but what I can say is that most "primitive hunters" today are...COMPLETELY CLUELESS...to what actual traditional hunting was (and is!) We hunt what this "modern group" of archers would call..."bird points"...which is a complete and utter mislabeling (and misleading) of them... I hunt (hunted) with a Commanche style bow (my heritage) and the tips are tiny and sharp...always have been...always will be...I am utterly amazed (that it seems...???) that most modern-day "primitive archers" did not know this...understand this...and/or disagree with the FACT that small heads that are sharp are the tool of choice for hunting...NOT...larger points... Simply put, they are LETHAL...!!!...if you actually know what you are doing and your traditional archery equipment is authentic to purpose, style, and modality of application means... Thanks for a great video!!!
My Brother wants to eventually go with English/Early Medieval Longbow for his hunting bow of Yew or Mulberry using wood shafts and the smaller war soldier archer fletching for his bows using South Dakota legal rules but with Medieval styles of points including war points for hunting. Right now, he has a Fiberglass English/Early Medieval Longbow of 68--69 inches at 60 pounds for the bow I got him with 6 of the arrows but field tips with the intent to have his hunting weight be 60--65 pounds. So, he wants to go full on 900 to 1400 AD bows from Europe and later Great Brittan after they got most of the Yew.
On Primitive hunting, I have the Book Howard Hill's Method of shooting Bow and Arrow by Jerry Hill and in there Howard Hill has a Chapter on Native Americans most of who use Primitive bow stuff until Europeans came and it shows a photo in 1920's of Howard Hill in loin cloth with a bow that is flat Bush style made of Snakewood that has no rest and the arrow he has you can't see the tip that is basically the width of the skinny style broadheads Howard Hill used but shorter in style. The only part that is not primitive is the string that appears to be the early Dacron I or II type strings from the era but in a twist either Flemish or the other Twist I forget name of you do not see much anymore on commercial strings since at the time those were the most common way to make strings until after WWII.
A heavier projectile will have less speed because the bow can only push so hardon it. You have a fixed thrust potential. Lighter projectile can be pushed faster than a heavier one. This is also true with billets.
yes I do, they arent currently on the website but I have quite a few preforms ready to go if folks want them. The normal size i run on the website 65-ish grains are still perfect for penetration and also meet most state size requirements.
I would go Bone point if I had a choice as you can get those sharper than most stone points. The problem why we see less points made past an era in bone is that the bone points become part of the soil sooner then the Stone point. The small broadhead for big game like Deer/Turkey is not legal in a few states due to needing minimum grains of weight and others they need a minimum of 1 1/8 or 1 3/8, something like that for hunting, Ohio has a minimum width needed. South Dakota where I live you would have to make the head have a Double Bevel and even a head that tapers from a sharper center line/corner to the sharp cutting edges on both sides would count as Double Bevel in South Dakota as the faces are considered the bevel. I have reason to think this was to stop Native Americans from using stone or bone points when hunting but I see if they use a method of the taper from sharper center line/corner to a sharp cutting edge they can get the arrow to be legal as the whole side face is considered a bevel. The Small head penetration is why with modern tech I use a Small Muzzy MX--3/MX--4 or Drone Wasp knock off that is a just barely 1 inch for my big game arrow at 100 grains and this rather Small broadhead for small game also at 100 grains for my hunting needs. I could use the smaller head for big game in South Dakota since it meets the other requirements, but I will not since I feel it lacks enough of the cutting edge for game over the size of a Coyote.
sooooo it looks like for a good hunt with out 3 or 4 shots we need approx 65# to 85# bows and then is just a question of taste if we use a heavy broad head or a small stone tip???tapered shafts ! my question is way is it now a problem to have pass truth when it was in 70'and 80' with aluminum shafts 3/8 - 550gr shaft 150gr broadhead normal?? and a 70# bow you know one shot one kill!! the last couple of week i saw some really bad hunting videos ...bows to week arrows to heavy cheap broadheads " bending"and the woerst of all bad arrow flight...you can see in slowmo.the arrow fly's sidewise sooo bad...
You definitely don't need super heavy bows. Mine was only about 62 pounds and that was with a short draw length. It is much much easier to get deeper penetration with steel broadheads
Ok...but to day everthing above 45# is concidert "heavy"? Sorry but i did exacly wat you yry to say in this video..i mix stuff up...sorry..ok primitiv archery...well is there a reason why north american nativ did not use poisen arrows??like south america or africa?
Clay Hays uses a 175 grain setup for his broadheads on some bamboo or Wood arrow shatfts he got a tone of these cheap off Alibaba with the idea to make and or sell arrows at one point but the shafts were too off that he has to match the shafts more then he wants so Clay just uses them for a single arrow maybe two for his bow classes. Clay also uses again after a period of using a takedown for a few years, Primitive bows with modern string of either Osage with Sinew backing or Fire Hardened Hickory and his oldest son has a very similar setup but with 150 grain arrows.
shoot an email to huntprimitive@gmail.com for a quote, also, you can get a pdf version easy as well. International sales these days are not much short of a nightmare. that is why we did a pdf for folks overseas.
